Just got started on my 620 HBE/20ga slug gun project and wouldn't you know it, my 6mm-284 bbl arrived from ER Shaw...they got it right this time. All the measurements from a chamber cast were right on...only needed 0.012" taken off the shoulder to achieve Zero headspace using my very old Redding custom dies and a test load fired in a Norma case with 0.012" neck walls resulted in a just right slip fit with a 105gr Horn Amax. Can't wait the get it back together and on the bench.

I found a 20ga NEF USH at Bud's for $280 total including my fav gunshops fee...the gunshop also had a very cheap 20gr Topper Jr 3" I might pick up to test smoothbore loads and I have a 40 plus year old 20ga High Standard that still keeps taking out the trash.

I dug out some 3" Fed and SuperX cases...also very way old, AA and RP20 shot cups, added 20ga 3" cases to the order list along with a 20 ga roll crimper and made a few bullets in between winter chores.





I particularly like the .620 OD bullet at the far right in the first pic next to the Super X case...nice sharp cutting shoulder and slight hollow cavity, 650 gr for use in a rifled barrel....and the 6th from the left with the cutting shoulder and hollow cavity at 435 gr for use in the smoothbore using shot cups.

Lymans 4th Ed Shotshell Reloading Handbook has some very nice 20 ga 3" loads for 1 to 1 1/4 oz loads(440gr to 550gr)using the Fed and AA cases and the same wads in the picture...at ~1300fs and ~9.7K to 11KLUP.

The 50 cal bullets end up just about 0.550" OD and my HS with full choke measures 0.605". Time will tell if that difference will cause accuracy problems. The shot cup inside base OD is ~0.515-20" so the 50 cal bullets fit better. I might have to find some 9/16" brass stock if there is such a thing. It will be easy enough to add a filler wrap if needed or to turn some slugs to a larger OD. Always something to play with when doing "different"

Considering just how respected the 45-70 is, loaded to similar bullet weights and velocities, maybe some of ya'll might want to rethink just how effective the "lonely and lowly" 20 ga actually is, given the right diet.

I have enough 1/2" and 5/8" brass stock to make about 20 bullets each...I also have some 3/4" brass stock to turn out some narly 750-850 12 GaFH slugs with a sharp cutting shoulder, Keith style nose shape...just for the T-RexRatz that sometime come calling...

I'm going to enjoy playing with project...maybe even more than the others.

Luck

Very cool project, you're making me think about buying that nice 10 gauge SxS I saw on gunbroker and starting a project.

I'm almost ready to test the .600/12gaFH Super Sabot. Going with both the Full length 4" and 3.5 inch cases. The 3.5 inch SS should run through the Benneli Supernova.id like to match the original .600NE load at 1850fps in a pump action shotgun!-Rob

Far out...Rob. Did you/are you using the sabots from Lefteris? Brass and plastic cases?

4500ft from a shotgun with no more recoil than a stiff 1 1/2 oz load...love at first bite.

This "outside the envelope" stuff might open a few eyes maybe.

Wonder how they would work in a Saiga with a 12 rnd mag?

The 3.5" might work in many auto's also as long as the pressure is kept within pressure specs, easy to load and sure beats store bought.

Maybe a "thingy" who's time has come.

Hahahahahah...whatsamatta, Chuck...12 ga not big enough...you got some critters needing BIG MEDICINE? I'm thinking 2.5 - 3oz 10ga brass slug at 13-1400fs might just roll over a Mack truck and cause a T-Rex to get real sick. Gives new meaning to "*itsup".

Don't think...just do it...I just shut my eyes and started...what the heck, I got lots of fat to live off of for the next...?? hummmmmm...by the time they catch up to me I will have had my fun and it will be too late to do anything but . Besides, I'm way too old, rank and tough to eat ...

Luck

Oh God, I've got a Supernova.
I can feel the blunt force trauma comming on already.

Cheers, John

oHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....FEEL THE PAIN....MORE, MORE, MUCH MORE...DON'T TEASE, JOHN, TELL US HOW IT HURTS.

Hahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhh....I CAN'T WAIT, I GOTTA POP A FEW 12GaFH CAPS TOMORROW. OH, MY PRECIOUS, MY BEAUTY.

Hahahahahahahaha I need a doctor.

Luck

I've seen some nice muzzle brakes on the Saiga 12's that are used in competition.
That might take some pain out of it.

Mine has the Tactical stock, under hard recoil it jumps straight up.
I think venting the top of the muzzle will fix that.

I can't wait to see what Rob has in store for us. He can put together some real monsters.
I just have to wait.

Cheers, John

FOOBAR,
Your pic of the led bullet in the shotcup gave me an idea.
If you attach a regular plastic shotcup to a bullet via Brenneke style, will the petals lay back along the sides of the projectile and act as a base drag stabilizer like a Russian RPG does????????
I never thought about keeping the petals on before.
I should stop thinking, might break something.

Cheers, John

I can't see a single reason why the .600/12GaFH Super Sabot won't reach .600NE power levels or darn close. Yup recoil will be brutal but a close range ( <50 yrds) it should have more than sufficient accuracy for Buff. Recoil will be bad but so what, I'll gladly trade that off for the lightweight and the huge increase in capacity. I have lots of .620 brass and copper bullets perfect for this project too. -Rob

These projects scream for muzzle brakes on the shooters, and added weight, but not too much...too much added weight will change the handling aspect somewhat, but that could be offset by practice.

A smoothbore might not have quite the accuracy of a rifle or a double, but it make it up with capacity, and should be adequate for "minute of Buf".

Unless the first shot anchors the critter and it gets up a head of steam, how many times have 2-4 shot rifles from BOTH the hunter and the PH been emptied without stopping it and someone gets stomped.

A 7 shot magazine extension would definitely be a consideration...and practice loading on the run.

In this case MORE is much better...MORE BULLET DIAMETER, WEIGHT AND NUMBER. A rifled bore and higher level of sighting devices reduces that level of inaccuracy considerably.

I also think the larger frontal area of the 12 ga slug gives a higher level of added smack over and above whatever the "calculated" striking energy.

Same thing happened to me with my 8.5-9# Mossy and Rem, with several 100 ftlb plus recoil level loads, John. Recoil was so quick, plus the forends and stock shapes just weren't condusive to a tight hold. Same load was bad enough in my 12# NEF, but at least I could hold on.

Most of the MB's I make now are quick dump styple with the vents in the two upper quadrants and at different angles.

Usually 3-4 relatively large holes directly on top and a set or two of smaller holes offset at 30°, 45° and/or 60°.

That directs the gases upwards which keeps the muzzle down and the also slightly to the sides but still angled upwards, plus the quick dump get rid of the gas in a hurry...PLUS redirects the noise upward. Not very good inside a building or range with a roof, but seems to reduce the noise to a larger degree outside with nothing to redirect the noise back to the shooter or bystanders.

John; They might, then they might just destabilize if one or more petals were detached or just slow down the slug...who knows??
Could be something very interesting to investigate.

Rob; Hurry, hurry...can't wait to see what you come up with, then have on offer. I've checked every source I came across for a sabot only thick enough to work, but Lefteris is the only one I found with a sabot anywhere near usable for this type of activity.

It would definitely be nice if his slugs and/or sabots could become available in the US...maybe some kind of a group buy, money up front, sort of thing or "made in America" kind of thing.

Would definitely be a niche market until some major player stepped up and turned loose the Madison Ave Ad dogs. Rob...You know anyone at Hornady?

This is worse waiting than waiting for my 50-90 to get here.

Luck

Just ordered an H&R 20ga USH...the next step has been completed...Christmas gifts also...winter studs replaced summer tires...snow blade installed on ATV...and a few more bullets turned. At least I will see just how these 50 cal brass bullets work in a pump.

Luck

With the 20ga 3.5" case I tested in barrel
in the FBW I got 700gr over 2000. Ed

I now have a 3.5" Benneli Nova and am awaiting some Sabots from Lefteris. Gonna be wild!-Rob

Popped off a few of the 450GR brass/20 ga/shotcup/3" Fed case rounds just to see what would happen...the results were interesting.

Loads were right out of Lymans 4th Ed...no recoil to speak of...2 out of 4 went in sideways at 20yds...sighes were a front bead and groove in the receiver...all hit within a 4" circle...2 that went straight were inside a 2" target...velocity was ~1300 plus...I dug out 2 buried about 6" deep in packed dirt...both could be shot again as they were hardly scratched or dented...that brass is hard stuff.

I think the slugs need to be somewhere around 0.550-0.570" to fit through the full choke and stabilize...probably near 0.580-0.590 for a cylinder bore. I think size difference between toh .0500" slugs and the 0.605" choke was just too much. I really expected more recoil also so I will try some shot loads tomorrow just to see if there actually is a difference.

Quite a difference in recoil between a 45-70 with a 450gr bullet at the same velo as I recall and this 20 ga. Either that or I've been banging away with the 50-90 and anything less just doesn't register. Might have something to do with the 28-35 gr powder vs 40-50 gr powder in the 45-70.

700gr at 2000fs Ed...now that's a nice load...What powder did you use?

I've been mulling over the 1.25" - 650gr brass 0.620" bullet I just posted for use in the H&R with 3" RMC brass. QL is giving me some numbers I'm not comfortable with...3.55" COAL, 0.700" seat depth, 120gr WW748, ~23.6KPSI, ~1960fs. Load from a Disk is close in pressure but 200fs less velocity.

Does this seem anywhere near correct Ed?...or anybody??

Ed...Did I correctly read you were loading the NEF in this size case to ~25-30KPSI??

Thanks...

Luck

Hello,

I will be watching your progress very closely.
I am almost to the point of developing loads for my 20ga. 3" DR project.
You can see the thread in the Double rifle forum.
I have some cast slugs I got from "Turbo"
over at relaoders nest, and some modified 600 NE lead bullets I got off of someone on a forum.
I have brass cases and Fiocchi hi brass hulls.

Good luck and keep the progress coming.

Nitro

That sounds about right.My math shows
25-26,000 psi for my load.
3.5" brass- 130gr RE17.

I shot the load in the FBW. The RMC brass will take
over 30,000 psi and cases extract easy.
Same load will work in the same barrel that
is now mono-blocked in the CBC singleshot.Ed

Thanks Ed, Nitro. I'm still learing just where the "glitches" are in QL and matching the data to what my Chrono's show. Straight walled cases have their own way of doing things for certain...and I'm still fiddling with the shot start number for brass bullets.

I'm looking for a source for cast lead .620" bullets and have several sources for good mould makers. Hitting every site that has any kind of load data for the 600NE I can use to extrapolate/guess?...already "borrowed" AR's, AmmoGuide and Reloaders Nest, plus Ed's, Rob's and Rip's information.

Basically will try to hit a balance between bullet weight, powder amounts and velocity too keep the recoil level resonable and energy level as high...using faster burning powders reduces the powder weight amount which definitely reduces the recoil levels.

I will increase the rifle weight up to ~#10 without scope, a thumbhole stock, either my H&R laminated stock or swap in the Guns Inc aftermarket off the 12GaFH and add my version of a "quick dump" MB and add a 1-4x scope.(so I can see what I'm shooting at )

All the "normal" slow/slower burning powders in the Varget/RL15 and RL-22/H4831 fit nicely but require large amounts...120 - 150 gr amounts which jack up the recoil but have 85-95% load density levela while the fast burners have similar velocities, but much lower density levels, some as low as 40%...this is keeping the pressure levels to 25KPSI plus/minus a couple thou.

QL wise, I'm seeing many advantages to going 3.5"...you get 40-45 gr additional full case volume but maybe more importantly, you gain the additional 1/2" case length which means a longer, heavier bullet can be used...much more important with brass because of the difference in density, hence needing a longer brass bullet to equal the same weight in lead.

The brass bullet I turned is 1.25" long at 650 gr...to get to 900 gr you need one roughly 1.4"...or the chamber throated to seat the bullet out that same additional length in a 3" case...if you keep the same bullet profile. That same bullet without the hollow cavity and slight centering cut in the vase would go close to 700 gr.

I will be doing a few more bullet models, maybe shorter nose, larger OD meplat, whatever required to get up close to 900gr and also down to an even 600gr.

My basic idea is to have a few fairly pleasant 450 - 600 gr loads to play with and a stiff 600 gr and a 900 gr close equivilant to the original 600 NE load or a bit more keeping below 30KPSI.

I think somethin along these lines would work in a DR, Nitro...I will check the DR link and also see if I can find "Turbo" at Reloaders Nest for some bullets.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:

I'm looking for a source for cast lead .620" bullets and have several sources for good mould makers.

Brook's made a mold for RIP, I bought a copy of a few months after he did.

Tom at Accurate Molds made me a 660g mold - it is in his catalog as a 62-660B, along with several other models - and he'll build whatever you want quickly and with little drama (at a good price).

Thanks,Fireball...I lost Rips mold maker and have been searching the threads for the past while looking for it. Found it once last night, then lost it again...Jeez.

I will also check with Accurate Molds.

I'm going to order some Beartooth 1040gr and nip off their butts to get the weight down a bit.

Thanks again

Luck

Foobar

I have some bullets from a modified NEI 600 NE mold.
It has the lower 2 grooves removed to reduce it from 900gr to 720gr.
I will see who I got them from and PM you.

Nitro

Thanks Nitro...I definitel need to find a cheap source of bullets or cast my own...I also need a mold for .730" slugs. I only have about 100 or so left.

Anyone heard from Gary Sappington...he disappeared off my radar a couple years ago?? He cast me some beautiful slugs in several weights...I would like to find him again.

My Scots/Irish/Jewish/tightwad, etc., heritage won't allow my popping off buck and a half per inch bullets at sageratz ...besides my being "economically challenged" puts the kybosh on it for certain.

Pic of more simple to turn brass bullets.



I think the 750 gr would be a nice compromise...not too long, nice weight, capable of good velocity...QL gives ~1900fs/6000ftlbs around 25KPSI for several powders...more on tap if needed.

Luck

We will be waiting.

Cheers, John

Rifle will be here sometime the week before Christmas. Picked up 5" of 5/8 brass rod today. Drew up a pic of a 650-750 gr bullet similar to Rips 900gr...basically slightly shorter nose and one less band and groove...and found a caster maybe to cast my bullets when the mold gets here.

Will get 3" brass cases ordered tomorrow or the next day from RMC to start with, then 3.5" later maybe...not sure if I want to go that long, just have to see how things develop. I might prefer a "heavenly" Hellboy Express. Hahahahah

Now I need to find someone with a 20 ga 3.5" reamer

Things are rolling along...not as fast as I want them to, but still moving.

Now if it doesn't snow 4' between now and then I might get a shot or two off.

I did try out a couple 0.550" brass bullets using a RP20 wad cup and 25gr Blue Dot in a Fed 3" case...both went sideways through the target 16" high and 12" right...at 20 yds...don't know what that's all about. I didn't see the wad separate and I haven't found any wads laying on the ground anywhere around the target nor in the dirt either which is strange also. I will test a few out into the woods at my steel gong...at least I will see where the wads are going.

The bullet/wad was still smaller than the full choke bore so I will go up to 0.565" which should be just choke size.

Luck

Hey Foobar---want to try some of my home spun 800's w/ a 90% meplat? Shoot great in my 600's & hit like a train. I think I've got some of them & the cute little 600's on the left already cast & lubed. I'd send you a dozen of each to try & if you like the molds to cast if they work.

600 Overkill,
Do those 90% meplat bullets feed from the mag at all???
Nice looking bullet, Your design???
Are you using some form of wadding under the bullet to protect the bullet base???

I have lots of questions because that one is just a Sweety.
A real killer at Low velocity and Murder if stepped up. EXCELLENT

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
600 Overkill,
Do those 90% meplat bullets feed from the mag at all???
Nice looking bullet, Your design???
Are you using some form of wadding under the bullet to protect the bullet base???

I have lots of questions because that one is just a Sweety.
A real killer at Low velocity and Murder if stepped up. EXCELLENT

Cheers, John

They do feed pretty well from my AHR but I still wouldn't use them as anything but the first round in the field. I designed it from Mountain Molds web site for my single shot #1 600JDJ. I load it to around 1500fps w/ IMR 4198 or RL7 & use pillow fiber as a filler. Good accuracy, mild recoil & pretty hard hitting for a plinker. That short 600gr. round nose I built for plinking practice out of the bolt gun w/o the brake on. Feeds good, accuracy good enough for what I need.

WHooeeee, 600 OK...flying ash can for sure. Yeah, thanks, I try some... I'll PM you my address.

Have you tried turning a sharper nose angle and rounding it a bit? Might make it feed better from a magazine. Would also reduce the weight a bit. That "BEAST" must hit like a Mack truck.

I'm really looking forward to receiving the 1040gr slugs from Beartooth. I like that band/groove design so I'm going to do some lathe work reshape/shorten it a bit and maybe send it in to one of the mold makers.

I wanted something in the 600 gr range so your "stubby" one might just work great...or maybe lengthen it a bit to ~750 gr. Lighter bullet and higher velo, less recoil and nice energy in a BIG bullet...what more can a guy want.

I've been burning up the air waves to Mountain Mold and Acccurate molds, my Cad drawing program AND my calculator trying to come up with a bullet design I like at the right weight and stealing designs where ever I found a picture.

At least I derived a simple math formula to calculate grain weights from the mass and density numbers of different metals from all this mucking about. Makes it much easier to get close to the weights I want.

Lots of lead bullet/BP/smokless shooters use a disc of lube they poured thin in a flat pan then cut out with a die, John...put in the powder, filler, then the disc with the bullet on top. Go to Cast Boolits, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index, there is TONS of home cooked lube recipes and all the other good stuff.

And there are lubed wads and solid lube "pills" available from most shotgun component supply houses...I have some lubed wads from BPI or Precision I use in my 50-90 and some lube pills I use in my 1858 44 cal BP replica pistol. Really helps reduce the leading, stops flashback and is a hellofalot cleaner than using Crisco over the bullets.

Time flys way to fast at my age, but really creeps along when I waiting for some toy to arrive.

Luck

I hand reamed the chamber of this Hellboy and then scratched the side of the barrel too:



One of those 900-grain Brooks 20-guage slugs after it slugged the NEF barrel full length:



3.5" RMC brass for 20g, and some 3.5" and 3.85" brass from RMC and Nohbozo (Dave casey and Robgunbuilder):



The Brooks Mould used to make the 1400-grain lead Darwins is a beauty, and the 20-g/900-grainer is too:

Hi RIP,
Nice work you've done there.
Is the rifling fast enough to stabilize the 900 grain bullet?
How is the accuracy?
I think the twist in that barrel is 1 in 28, is that correct?

Cheers, John

Hi Guys,
Does anyone have any idea how to build a heat crimper like the one shown here:
www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/HBBS_Heat_Crimper.html
It would sure save on brass costs.
He only builds for the 410, but Man is he doing some great work with it.
A 350 grain bullet at 1600 out of plastic is great in my opinion.

Cheers, John

RIP; What did the that bullet mike? I dug around in the Hellboy thread but missed it if you posted it. I want to get a mold ordered as soon as possible. Thanks

John...That's correct 1-28"...12 ga is 1-35". That twist will stabilize most every bullet you could come up with...up to 2" long from 1000fs. Most of the bullets I've come across fall between 1" and ~1.75" including lead and brass. Even the 900 gr brass was 1.55" with the truncated short nose.

I just turned a pointy one that came in at 627 gr and 1.34", 20° angle on the bow. I think I might just scale up a 50 BMG to .625" and turn one just for kicks...Here's a pic of that bullet and a hand full of the slugs I shot through my High Standard full choke...look close and you can see where they hit the dirt bank sidewasy.



You could get well over 1000gr even with a long pointy nose shape...I'm working on some designs just for fun, but Macife, Rob or anyone with a CNC machine could come up with something like a long 50 BMG bullet shape easy enough. It's scarey to think what something like that would be capable of out of a 3.5" or even a 4" 20ga case in the NEF 20G USH with just a bit of effort.

John;...that's a neat setup Hoening came up with...wonder if he plans on doing larger bores. Think 410 HellKid Express might work in keeping with the 20ga nomenclature? I think the 40-110 Win Express got there first.

Always something new and better arriving on the scene.

Where is Lady Luck when I need her?

Luck

FOOBAR,
Find some B&P Z2M 15mm 20ga wads (#7 below) and I will give some slug dimensions for your fully rifled barrels tomorrow.
http://www.baschieri-pellagri....6&Itemid=197&lang=en

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

I'm pretty sure Mr. Hoening is only into 410's, to bad.
I know I've seen that heating element before but can't place it.

410 Hellkid in a Saiga semiauto...hmmmmmmm

Cheers, John

Thanks, Lefteris...not sure if I could get there from here, but you never know.


How's this for a pointy thang...966 gr. Not quite exact proportions but close enough...had to fiddle the lengths on the central cylinder and nose, plus bobitoff to get it down to 2.1"...this length will stabilize in a 1-28 T from 1000fs up. 10° angle on the bow and 15° angle on the stern.

I need to adjust the bands and grooves on the central cylinder a bit...a wider "south end last band and a thinner front band to equal things up.

Sure looks like it would shot but won't know for a while.



Maybe if the 410 heater works/sells well, he might develop one for the 12 and 20 ga...it would make things a lot easier and add volume to the case...maybe good, maybe bad...only testing would tell the story.

The 410 shotshell measurements are awfully clost to a 40-90 Sharps Straight...Bet RMC could make up cases in any length you might want.

DONT GET ME STARTED.

Better late than never on this HellBoy project so I get to pick and choose from all the already developed data and if I think about this 410 thing too long....

Luck

Rip
Those Darwins would be cool in Zinc. Have you tried casting zinc? Maybe casting the lighter Zinc could allow a longer slug and eliminate the need for wads.

Hey Boomer,
I've got some metal casting experiance, from lead to stainless steel.
Make sure you use Pure zinc. Some of the alloys like ZAMC12 are as tough as cast iron.

Oh, a thought just hit
Would an 1895 Winchester rebarreled to 410 be legal in shotgun only states????

Cheers, John

The 405 win 1895 is pretty much a 410 long.

FOOBAR,
The B&P Z2M 15mm, 20ga wad with a Lee Minie bullet sized at .575 and 480grains weight and a brass bullet of .5715 and 438grains. There is a .080 thick, 32ga cork wad in shotcup, under the slugs. If wad petals are cut down to their bases, even a .585 bullet could be used. With a .585 bullet in place outside diameter of wad is .636.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Thanks, Lefteris...

My High Standard 20ga has a full choke muzzle bore OD of ~0.603-05" and so far all the brass slugs using shot wad cups have hit the target sideways at ~20yds...so with all the things going on with my 620 HellBoy Express project, I going to back off trying anything like that for a while.

I will order some 20ga Lyman slugs from Gardener as soon as he starts back up again and also check out the round ball offerings. I might also make a few "shuttlecock" shaped brass slugs to see if more weight forward might keep the slugs from going sideways...or drill a hole in the nose and add some lead.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Now I need to find someone with a 20 ga 3.5" reamer

You just did.