quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
In my humble estimation, they are all weak sisters to the .416 Rigby.

.416 Rigby .416 diamter 400 gr bullet @ MV 2400 FPS.

.404 Jeffery in a modern action. .423 diameter 400 gr bullet @ MV 2400 FPS.

But since it says Rigby on it I'll give it the advantage of brand recognition and therefore having a vastly greater knock down and kill ability in the field.

Whoa, there. Hold your horses. Apples to apples only. Not apples to oranges, if you please.

.416 Rigby in a "modern action" = 400 grain bullet at 2,700 fps!

Recalling some of Jim Atkinson's posts he has safely loaded his 404's to over 2,600fps with the 400gr bullet, I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong. The <100fps difference if wanting to debate can easily be the difference for the same cartridge in different rifles.
As most find, any of these 40 calibre cartridges perform as well around the 2,300 - 2400fps level, being pleasant to shoot and very effective on their intended targets.

The 404 was likely loaded at a lower level than the 416 and 425 solely because Jeffery wanted to reproduce his hugely popular 450/400 3" double rifle cartridge in a new cartridge for bolt actions. After all the 404 came on the market before either of the other two, and had the dates of introduction been reversed Jeffery would possibly have bought the 404 out at the same if not a higher level loading than the other two "apples" in the basket. There is no logical reason in terms of pressure etc why the Jeffery has to be loaded down today. Some say it was because Jeffery and others opened up the standard Mauser action to take the 404 cartridge therefore there were likely some weakened actions around, but then Selby famously used just such an action in 416 Rigby having it re-barreled on occasion as he wore them out.

I am inclined to agree about 99% with Eagle27.

It helps if you have a buddy who already has a converted bolt to give you as well....

Eagle mate

I think 400 gr at 2600 fps is a 416 Rigby modern load. Not a 404J.

Original 404 Jeffery was around 2150 fps (similar to the 450/400 etc) and can be increased to 2400 fps with modern loads.

The original 10.75X68 can be loaded with modern loads using 400 gr bullets to old 404J levels. Original was of course 347gr bullets

I am no expert - JMHO.

I used to have a friend like that. Haven't heard from him in a couple months...

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Eagle mate

I think 400 gr at 2600 fps is a 416 Rigby modern load. Not a 404J.

Original 404 Jeffery was around 2150 fps (similar to the 450/400 etc) and can be increased to 2400 fps with modern loads.

The original 10.75X68 can be loaded with modern loads using 400 gr bullets to old 404J levels. Original was of course 347gr bullets

I am no expert - JMHO.

Hi Naki, it wasn't until after I posted that I noticed the thread "Rigby 416 loads" close by where both you and Jim have posted. Jim mentions many he knows use 2600fps and 2700fps loads in their 404J and 416R rifles respectively. Elsewhere Jim has posted his loads for achieving over 2600fps in his 404's.

I do offer my thoughts on why the 404J was traditionally underloaded in my post. No earthly reason why the two cartridges of similar capacities shouldn't be loaded to the same intensity if one feels the need for such.

Like you I do not, and in my limited experience of knocking a few aussie buffalo down the 404 does it nicely even at velocities approaching the original.
I certainly didn't feel the need to rattle my fillings out when the beasts fell over with the mild ammo I was using.

I will get a hold of you latter in week. just got back from Canada, and home a few ago!!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I used to have a friend like that. Haven't heard from him in a couple months...

With little to no modifications to the standard Mauser action, the 10.75x68 is another viable option.

CEB makes some fantastic bullets .423, including a new 300gr ESP and a 258gr FlatBase.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
In my humble estimation, they are all weak sisters to the .416 Rigby.

.416 Rigby .416 diamter 400 gr bullet @ MV 2400 FPS.

.404 Jeffery in a modern action. .423 diameter 400 gr bullet @ MV 2400 FPS.

But since it says Rigby on it I'll give it the advantage of brand recognition and therefore having a vastly greater knock down and kill ability in the field.

Whoa, there. Hold your horses. Apples to apples only. Not apples to oranges, if you please.

.416 Rigby in a "modern action" = 400 grain bullet at 2,700 fps!

Did the .416 gain it reputation and make it's bones during the golden era with original 400 gr loads at 2400 FPS? Or did it make it's reputation with "modern" loads. Hmm I wonder?

Of course the same can be said for the .404 and it original loading.

Apples to apples both are extremely effective killers of thick skinned African dangerous game with original and modern loading.

I have a Custom made rifle by Tip Burns in 404 Jeffery. Made on a Montana Rifle Company Long Action.
I also have a Mauser M03 with a 404 Jeffery barrel. Both are excellent rifles!

have owned both calibers in originals-
if building new, for hunting use-
404, without question

actually prefer it to the 416 as well

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Anyone here have experience with both these cartridges? What were your impressions? I have a lovely VZ-24 action stashed and am daydreaming here ...

404

http://www.gundigest.com/artic...808&utm_medium=email

As I said, my 404 J was built on a VZ-24. Marvelous rifle.

I would want mine built like Phil's original. Built in 1907!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Anyone here have experience with both these cartridges? What were your impressions? I have a lovely VZ-24 action stashed and am daydreaming here ...

404

http://www.gundigest.com/artic...808&utm_medium=email

I have been shooting the 404 for many years, It is no trick to get 2650 FPS with a 24 inch barrel and I can get 2700 FPS with a max load in a 26 inch barrel with 95 or 96 grs of old world 4831 grs. and perhaps 4831 SC (?), all my 404s would do that. My hunting load settled on 93 grs. for the magic 2400 FPS.

From a technical standpoint which has not been mentioned in this thread the 416 WBY case and the 404 have the same water capacity for all practical purposes..the 416 WBY is a 404 with a rim. The Rigby has like water capacity.

Folks think the 404 is slow and weak,simply because they have read about the old loads, and the modern factory 2350 FPS weaker loads, but in a modern rifle at like pressure and velocity, it rates right up there with the both or at least within a 100 FPS, all things equal..

Its a no brainer if one does their homework.

recheck your data Ray.

The 378/416/460 Weatherby cases are all based on the 416 Rigby not the 404J.

John Buhmiller did the original design of the cases on the Rigby brass. Wby "borrowed" a rifle in 458/416R caliber from him, and that is where their big bores came from. That is what John told me the day I visited him at his shop. I ended up buying the rifle the next day. I also got to shoot the Bullpup he shot at Perry a couple times. Well enough that they outlawed them after the second year.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have been shooting the 404 for many years, It is no trick to get 2650 FPS with a 24 inch barrel and I can get 2700 FPS with a max load in a 26 inch barrel with 95 or 96 grs of old world 4831 grs. and perhaps 4831 SC (?), all my 404s would do that. My hunting load settled on 93 grs. for the magic 2400 FPS.

From a technical standpoint which has not been mentioned in this thread the 416 WBY case and the 404 have the same water capacity for all practical purposes..the 416 WBY is a 404 with a rim. The Rigby has like water capacity.

Folks think the 404 is slow and weak,simply because they have read about the old loads, and the modern factory 2350 FPS weaker loads, but in a modern rifle at like pressure and velocity, it rates right up there with the both or at least within a 100 FPS, all things equal..

Its a no brainer if one does their homework.

Ray - the 404 and the 416w are entirely different cases - i don't think they share a single external measurement, andthe 460/416/380, etc are improved rigby cases with a belt.

the 404 shares many dims with a remington ultramag, though...

which is why you can make functional 404 cases from a RUM case ... but not a rigby case...


explains quite a bit, thought

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
recheck your data Ray.

The 378/416/460 Weatherby cases are all based on the 416 Rigby not the 404J.

John Buhmiller did the original design of the cases on the Rigby brass. Wby "borrowed" a rifle in 458/416R caliber from him, and that is where their big bores came from. That is what John told me the day I visited him at his shop. I ended up buying the rifle the next day. I also got to shoot the Bullpup he shot at Perry a couple times. Well enough that they outlawed them after the second year.

I didn't take it that Ray actually meant the 416WM was made from 404J cases he was just figuratively speaking that for all intents and purposes the cases were the same. It is often said that the 416 Rigby is just the 378/460WM with the belt turned off or vice versa, and the 338Lapua falls into this category as well. In earlier days men like Jack O'Connor and Fred Huntington did just this to get 416 Rigby cases. Of course they still had to be sized in a 416R die and fire formed. Again this is just figuratively speaking.

No factory case is made from another, other than starting with cylindrical brass of a certain head size and making a range of cases and headstamping accordingly.

eagle27,

I would beg to differ on your last line. I wrote for a couple shooting sports magazines over a 12 year period. One of the fun things I got to do was tour the Winchester ammunition plant about twenty miles north of my parents farm in Illinois.

Every case based on the 308 Winchester cartridge went thru the machines from the same blanks. They got shifted to the other ones, excepting the 358, but including the 243 etc, down to the 22-250 for final two step forming.

Same with the 30-06. Draw steps down one more to 270, 25-06, etc.

Same with the 8x57 series.

There are only about half a dozen "basic" families of cartridge design and production.

If you have the library, read up on George Nonte's 6mm wildcat. He swaged 30-06 brass down and swaged a belt on it. Two years later Wby purchased the design rights and introduced it as the 240 Wby.

There is not much new under the sun, if you can research back to 1900.

As far as the statement about the 416 and 404J, if you take a tubing cutter and cut the 416 at the juncture of shoulder and body; you can drop a 404J case inside it. The only common denominator is that they both fire a 400gr bullet about the same velocity. The Jefferys just works at about 40% higher pressure.

I have owned and hunted with both for more than twenty years...

Rich

RANT ON!!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I didn't take it that Ray actually meant the 416WM was made from 404J cases he was just figuratively speaking that for all intents and purposes the cases were the same....

bullspit -- he said the 404 and the 416 wby have the same water capacity -- which is a flat out bad assumption - that some folks who don't understand internal ballistics MIGHT see it your way is UNSAFE -- he didn't say they were close, he said practically the same -- in terms of reloading, let's be generous and say that means 2-3% difference -- and dead wrong -- this is nearly as silly as saying a 307 and a 30-30 have the same capacity - again, dead wrong

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
No factory case is made from another, other than starting with cylindrical brass of a certain head size and making a range of cases and headstamping accordingly.

dude, you cut fine on one side, coarse on the other -- hey, have YOU (i have) ordered custom brass and had to work through the "we'll be running 416 ribgy and the big weatherby cases next month, how many of YOUR cases do you want us to run of yours (which 2 are based on rigby cases, one on weatherby)

then again, you are talking FACTORY cases, which most big bores are problematic and have to be made one to the other, --- i have a 500 jeffery case made from a 577 NE.....

and I have done the whole loop of 577/500 -derimmed to 505 gibbs, then necked to 550 and 585 (i was the first person, on the PLANET to put a .585 bullet in a straight 505 gibbs case stamped 550 magnum), then decide to just improve the 577/500 and neck to .550, and do the atf paperwork --- I would ask that you PLEASE don't tell me how big bore cases are put together

rant off

Don't stop now Jeffe, you are on a major roll!

We are in total agreement on this one.

Rich, when I win the lotto, I am asking Butch to do a couple 550 flanged -- just to rub salt in it ...

those that confuse a 404 capacity with a 416 rigby/weatherby should be prohibited from posting reloading data, EVER .. its just criminal

Whoa Jeff

Ray actually said "have the same water capacity for all practical purposes"

Not "have the same water capacity period"

And not "he said practically the same"

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree but I'm quite happy that I know exactly where Ray is coming from and it is not as per your quotes.

404 = 113grs h2o

416 = 134grs h2o

that's only close in NZ. Comes from living your life upside down...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
that's only close in NZ. Comes from living your life upside down...

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
404 = 113grs h2o

416 = 134grs h2o

Mike quote "Whoa, there. Hold your horses. Apples to apples only. Not apples to oranges, if you please.
.416 Rigby in a "modern action" = 400 grain bullet at 2,700 fps!"

Ray quote "It is no trick to get 2650 FPS with a 24 inch barrel and I can get 2700 FPS with a max load in a 26 inch barrel with 95 or 96 grs of old world 4831 grs. and perhaps 4831 SC (?), all my 404s would do that.
Folks think the 404 is slow and weak,simply because they have read about the old loads, and the modern factory 2350 FPS weaker loads, but in a modern rifle at like pressure and velocity, it rates right up there with the both or at least within a 100 FPS, all things equal."

So the extra 21 grains of H2O in the Rigby has just evaporated away

quote:

So the extra 21 grains of H2O in the Rigby has just evaporated away

20% increase in powder capacity does not just evaporate away into irrelevant meaninglessness.
Physics.

It is a major difference and would probably require different powders in order to optimize the results for each cartridge. Only then could comparisons be made and the 20% capacity difference would surely be significant. They are significant in every other cartridge comparison with 20% differences.

Now if someone were to say that they were not interested in the advantages of say a 3006 vs 308 or a 7mmMag vs. a 280, fine. But they are not the same nor do the advantages evaporate.

The main problem in many of these discussions is that people start with assumptions based on underloaded expectations, sort of like a heavy bullet in 30-06 loaded down to its 308 levels, or lower.
Just treat the powder capacity for what it is, it represents the relative maximum potential of the cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Whoa Jeff

Ray actually said "have the same water capacity for all practical purposes"

Not "have the same water capacity period"

And not "he said practically the same"

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree but I'm quite happy that I know exactly where Ray is coming from and it is not as per your quotes.

one of the FEW practical purpose for knowing case volume is RELOADING, and 20% isn't even close ---

would you take a 20% cut in your income? heck no,

As as aside note in the for what it's worth department on the original question between the 404 Jeff and the 425 WR.
I have cronographed both using original loads in original rifles. And from the 24" bbl of my Jeffery, 400 gr Kynoch ammo averaged right around 2100fps.
Original 400 gr Kynoch 425 WR loads from a 26 inch bbl WR droplock were averaging 2125 fps.

Both earned their reputations with those ballistics.
Even the 416 Ruger beats those ballistics by over 200 fps

thanks for sharing actual data.

Today, we have the powders to extend their MV and ME.

Yes we do, but are animals that much tougher than in those days ?

Yes we do, but are animals that much tougher than in those days ? (Quote)

Don't think so Phil. I just heard of some old bear hunter killing a grizzly with a 9mm.
How much water volume does a 9 mm case hold?

Native Americans in Alaska and Western Canada preferred the Model 70 in 22 Hornet for Polar and Brown Bears.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Native Americans in Alaska and Western Canada preferred the Model 70 in 22 Hornet for Polar and Brown Bears.

and mini 14s in 223

AR's have even surpassed the mini-14 in Alaska

thanks Phil good to know -- I just recall a documentary from i think the 80s (when i saw it) of Natives, Snow machines, and mini-14s - AR's weren't common back then ..

Eagle read my posts correctly. or as I intended Hillery Jeffe..

That said, lets explain it a different way. I can come within 100 FPS of the .416 Rigby or 416 Wby both of which can be loaded to 2700 FPS or more Im told by a local who loads them hotter.....Try 95 grs. of H4831 in your 404s ( I used old surplus 4831 in mine)

Jeffe told me many moons ago on this forum that I couldn't get 95 grs. of my 4831 in a 404 case..I get that much and a tad more in all of mine, so he speaks from lack of actual experience or uses a different powder IMO.

BTW, my rifle was chronographed on sufisticated testing equipment by North Forks original owner and he came up with 2569 FPS average in his test barrel and max but reasonable pressures.

Modern .404J ...

The people with beards here all grow straight!

How is your shave?



Just kidding Rich!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
that's only close in NZ. Comes from living your life upside down...