I am curious as to ya'lls opinions, as I am sure are new buyers of DG rifles.

Baised upon my shooting of rifles in 9,3x74R, 375 H&H, 378 Wby, 404 Jeffery, 450/400 3". 450/400 3 1/4", 500/416, 416 Rem Mag, 416 Wby Mag, 458 Win Mag, 460 Wby Mag, 450 No2, 470, 475, 475 No2, 500 Nitro, 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs, and 577 Nitro, And baised on use in Zimbabwe of my 9,3x74R, 450/400 3 1/4" and the 450 No2...

My vote for the most "killing power", with the least recoil, for DG would be the 404 Jeffery in bolt rifles and one of the 450/400's in doubles.

IE. A 400 grain bullet at @2150fps.

These ballistics give all the penetration needed for solids, and will expand proper softs,still giving enough penetration, with the least amount of recoil for the "killing ability" delivered vs. the recoil.

Gun weight is a factor as well and these 400's will weigh less than bigger bores, while "killing" better than the smaller bores.

Just my opinion.

Since you did not list "claymore mine", I'd go with the 416 Rigby in an 8 pound rifle. No aspirin required after a range session, and it gets it done. The 404 is so close to the 416 Rigby that either one would be a good choice.

I can't argue with your reasoning. The lower 400s have great penetration and stopping power with a reasonable amount of recoil.


465H&H

Jim
There are no flies on the 416 Rigby, but it and the 416 Rem Mag and the 500/416 are a step up in recoil.

They are very near the 470.

The 404 Jeffery/450/400's are much more "smoother".

My old 458WM with 400grn barnes X bullets. It would deal alot of death, and I could shoot about 40 rounds out of it before I got a sore cheek.

505ED

Tony,

The 416 Rigby I shoot anyway does not bother me at all recoil wise. Could be the stock design (Mauser M98), but it has no more recoil than a 375 H&H.

There is a noticeable step up in recoil between my 416 and 470. Of course, the 470 is pretty light at 9.5 pounds. And the Rigby weighs in at about 8.5 pounds without a scope.

Why ask? I thought all you physics majors knew everything.

the m70 crf .416 rem mag gets my vote.....even with 400 gr barnes solids, factory remington ammunition, it feels less than my m70 .375 h&h.....

450-400 3" in a double.

This what a lot of my older buddies are going to...Excellent ballistics and not to "mean" on the back end.

Hornady makes ammo and I believe Ruger is also making it in the #1 later this summer. That will make it a very affordable "hard hitter".

JW

9.3 X 74, in a good double. Mice to elephants in a gun that weighs less then 7 pounds, and kicks like a 22 lr.

Dr. S

Of course it would be the .395 Ruger Max , .395 GSC, or .395 Tatanka, (short, medium, long), depending on what action you want to use, and what pressure you want to accept.

No doubt, this is the ultimate, and it comes with a long range SP varmint bullet just for fun, as well as the ultimate FN solid and HV soft from a 1:12" twist.

.395-cal/340-grainer at 2400 fps to 2800 fps, take your pick.

Slow is O.K. sometimes, fast is better sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Why ask? I thought all you physics majors knew everything.

You don't have to own a bull to know what bullshit smells like.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
9.3 X 74, in a good double. Mice to elephants in a gun that weighs less then 7 pounds, and kicks like a 22 lr.
Dr. S

That's a hell've of a 22 you've got

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Why ask? I thought all you physics majors knew everything.

You don't have to own a bull to know what bullshit smells like.

The 450/400 (or 404) Jeffery has fairly mild recoil but throws a relatively good amount of __________ down range. It's bullet penetration and knockdown power will not be as good as the 416's but who is going to know the difference from limited experience, such as myself.

the 416 taylor fits the bill or its slight variants...

i like the idea of a 400 or 416x64 to get an extra down. a nice package without too much weight or recoil

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
9.3 X 74, in a good double. Mice to elephants in a gun that weighs less then 7 pounds, and kicks like a 22 lr. Dr. S

Few years ago I shot a O/U Beretta cal. 9.3x74; I recall that the recoil was noticeable.....

Hey Guys

Here's the answer. A 458 Lott with banded copper bullets (LM KJG). Lose the recoil, gain the range, maintain the killing power. 300gn 458 KJG bullet @ 2700 ft/s on 75 gn Reloader 10x.
Sweet





Taylor Knockout Factor reduced from 68 to 53 but recoil reduced from 62 to 42 Ft/Llbs

Mark

.458/300-grain bullets violate the KISS principle. Suitable for medium and small game only.

Fumbling to switch loads and adjust for altered POI depending on the game: No good.

One day, the .395 Tatanka will be called the "40 of '07 ..." and will prove to be as useful for the bigger stuff as the "30 of '06" is for the medium stuff.

What this thread is about, is what the .395 is all about.

GC
It would be hared to argue with your choice of the 9,3x74R double.

I have one and think a great deal of it.

Well handled it will take care of buff and elephant.

However, I feel a 40 cal 400gr bullet at @2150 is a good step up in power with out any big increase in recoil.

If some one was to ask, "The most killing power, with the least recoil, at the least expense, with the less fuss and muss", then the 9,3 double wins hands down.

By a wide margin.

Because the 9,3 is in a double it is FAR superior to a 375 H&H bolt rifle IMHO, for DG.

RIP

The .395 is for WIMPS...

Step on up to a .40.



Sorry only kidding, could not resist.

NE450#2,

quote:

Posted 02 June 2007 23:09 Hide Post

Because the 9,3 is in a double it is FAR superior to a 375 H&H bolt rifle IMHO, for DG.

Not if you can shot a bolt the way the guy on the Heym website does. But for most of us, I agree.

AzGuy
I know a lot of people that can shoot a bolt rifle as fast as the guy on the Heym website.

Problem is you NEVER know when a bolt rifle MIGHT malfunction, or break. That is why the double is superior.

Hey RIP

THe 300gn KJG in a 458 Lott is exactly on target for the KISS principle.

The question was about killing power against recoil not just killing power. Less recoil better shooting .
Banded monolithic bullets have both the advantages of immediate expansion/fragmentation then revert to a FN solid. Good styraight line penetration What more could you ask for.
Of course it wont work with a 300 gn lead copper bullet but we are now in the year 2007 not 1907.

Regards

Mark

For DG world wide something over 40 cal is probably the best. When hunting elephant, buff etc. You can kill them with any of the mentioned cartridges as long as the situation is under controll and you haven't missed on the brain shot or put one in the guts of a buff and now your follow up shot is on the ass end of one of these tough critters.

wounded DG running away from you after the shot is one that might probably be running at you after you follow up the stalk and catch up with him again. What happens then will depend on what your bullets did to the animals hind end when he was running away from you. Even if he is still moble after taking a couple of rounds in the back legs he will likly be slowed down giving you more time to shoot. I'll take a slow charge over a fast one any day.

Although I've been to Africa a couple times I have no experiance with buff or elephant so my opinion is subjective. I'd say for them 416 minimum if you want somthing that is a true DG rifle and will get you out of a bad situation.

For thinner skinned DG Bear, lion,Lepard, etc. a .300 win mag has ample power and penatration.

So back to the original question I never noticed any more recoil from a 9.3x74 over a .300 win and in fact my double .338 kicks harder than any 9.3 I've ever shot so on the light side I'd go with 9.3x74.

On the heavy side any 416's weather a taylor, rigby, or Kreigoff should all recoil about the same and all of them would be as efective as my 8 pound .458 wich kicks like a mule.

You make a pretty good case, but the .400 is too marginal for my tastes. I know the .400 has killed a lot of DG, including a lot of elephant, but the trade off between power and recoil in this caliber is too much on the side of low recoil, I think.

More power is needed to make me happy when up against DG.

Remember that the .450 NE loading that set the standard for nitro rifles on DG fires a 480 grain bullet at 2,150 fps. The .500/.450 NE and the .450 No. 2 NE fire the same bullet at 2,175 fps. All the other .450-plus to sub-.500 NE rounds are in the same category.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
RIP

The .395 is for WIMPS...

Step on up to a .40.



Sorry only kidding, could not resist.

Tony,
I know you are just jealous of a pioneer.
No hard feelings, you have my sympathy and understanding.

Think metric.

.395 = 10.03300 mm

.400 = 10.16000 mm

.408 = 10.36320 mm

.411 = 10.43940 mm

.416 = 10.56640 mm

.423 = 10.74442 mm not

There is not a silly millimeter's difference between any of them, and the .395 is closest to smack in the middle of the .375 to .416 caliber gap of the most commonly used firearms: .3955

With the .395's we have all the gentle killing niceties as well as long range ability.

Besides, a 470 NE double or a 500 Mbogo bolt action (oops another of my wildcats) would be in the gunbearer's hands. The .395 Tatanka would be in mine, and always ready for anything with 340-grains of copper FN or HV shooting to the proper POI for the same POA.

That is KISS.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
Hey RIP

THe 300gn KJG in a 458 Lott is exactly on target for the KISS principle ...

Mark

NO NO NO!
300-grain .458 stubbies will definitely blow off the petals at that speed, and have too little retained weight to penetrate very far. They are small to medium game bullets.

Velocity cannot make up for too little mass for caliber.

I do indeed believe in the monometal copper softs, but I like them a little heavier for caliber than that!

But I do agree that 2700 fps is probably the best velocity for an all-arounder, as long as the bullet is not too heavy or too light for caliber. So that it "works" just right "on" the shooter's shoulder, as well as just right on the terminal effects "in" target.

Something like the .395/340-grain GSC is just right, in a 1:12" twist, we shall soon see ... BTW, I WAS talking about the "40 of 2007" not 1907.

RIP

This could be a first on the forum, a agreement. THe question was based on producing an effective bullet with minimal recoil problems. A difficult problem to say the least.
The 300 are designed to blow of the petals which become secondary projectiles. Then you have a 225 gn solid that is shoulder stabilised travelling to the vitals


The ME of a 500 @ 2100 and 300 @ 2700 is virtually the same. Once the std bullet hits the target expands the sectional density reduces with expansion as it does not shed it petals and penetration reduces. The SD of the monometal reduces as well but much less so, so penetration improves.

As the 458 is 1.2" long it isnt stubbie and cycles much better than a Hornady 350 gn FP.

Regards

Mark

MarkH

We are talking about DG shot up close... cape buff, elephants and such.

Them light weight 458's might get you in trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
MarkH

We are talking about DG shot up close... cape buff, elephants and such.

Them light weight 458's might get you in trouble.

I agree.

If I'm going to shoot 300 grs @ DG, it will be out of a 375 and/or 9.3

416 Rem Mag.

What Mark H says makes sense to me and I like the look of that bullet but I don't know if it will work in the field. Do you have any test data on this bullet? I'd like to give them a try although I know that my 500 gr. Hornady's work well in my .458.

Having said that I've never shot anything bigger than a kudu or zebra with my .458 so I'd have a hard time comparing the two. I do wonder though how the 300 gr .458 @ 2700 is really any better than a 300 gr .375 @ 2600.

On my next trip to Zim I'll have to book up a couple of elephant and buffalo so I can compare each bullet in the feald. Then a couple more of each for my doubles so I can use them too. I'll report back afterwards.

By the way dose anyone happen to have an extra winning loto ticket there not using?

Ok sn we have moved from general purpose DG rifle to a charge stopping rifle.
Move up to a 458 400gn solid @ 2450ft/s then.



THe thin driving bands and sub calibre body of the bullet merans its very gentle on the thin barrel walls of fine double rifles.

Mark

Steps you need to make a 9.3 X 74 feel like a 22lr, in a Merkel double. First shoot this:


One of our members 500 Nitro Express double, with 570 grain soft points, at about 2025 fps.

Then shoot this:

My 500 Max, by Jack Huntington, with 525 grain bullets at about 1300 fps. Makes you remember that rifles are a beautiful thing, recoil wise.

Finally, shoot this:


Now the same member who owns the 500 Nitro's new gun.



It's REAL hard to believe that this toy actually
is as effective on game as my 375 H&H, and weighs nearly 4 pounds less, yet, you can nail two jugs, in under a second:


Made me want to go to the poor man's unmentioned runner in this, 9.3 X 62, which should actually be the hands down winner of this thread, considering it's African history...
Dr. S

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
9.3 X 74, in a good double. Mice to elephants in a gun that weighs less then 7 pounds, and kicks like a 22 lr.
Dr. S

That's a hell've of a 22 you've got

NO; IT'S NOT MINE.

IF I HAD THE MONEY AT THE TIME, AND, IT WAS HALF WHAT IT'S WORTH, IT WOULD BE MINE...
NOW ALL I GET TO DO IS BORROW IT, MAYBE...

WAHHHHHHH.........

DR S Goes off and fondles 500 Linebaugh Max, 475
Freedom Arms 83, Freedom Arms 83 22lr, and CZ 550, trying to appreciate that that's where his double rifle money is, right now....

quote:

Velocity cannot make up for too little mass for caliber.

RIP,

This is another eloquent way of saying I want more SD. Higher SD bullets have their place and we know it through experience.

Thanks bud.
Warrior

Warrior

SD reduces considerably when a bullet mushrooms.
Therefore with modern bullet design SD is much less important than all the historical wisdom based copper lead experience.

I agree with RIP now I know he wants a charge stopping bullet The 300gn 458 with a fragmenting tip is not ideal.
However the 400gn FN probably is. Charging elephants are hard to come by so developing a confident track record on new bullets in this field are going to be a bit of an uphill battle.

Mark

MarkH,
Dont worry too much about Warrior he is the official praise singer for rhino bullets and will never agree to any good point about solid copper bullets. He only pretends to know about guns and shooting and he has owned up to the fact that he does not have much practical hunting experience.

I would say that the CZ 458 Safari Classic Lott

Shooting a 500 gr bullet at 2266 FPS with 74 Ft

Lbs of recoil would have the killing power with

out alot of recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Steps you need to make a 9.3 X 74 feel like a 22lr, in a Merkel double. First shoot this:


One of our members 500 Nitro Express double, with 570 grain soft points, at about 2025 fps.

Then shoot this:

My 500 Max, by Jack Huntington, with 525 grain bullets at about 1300 fps. Makes you remember that rifles are a beautiful thing, recoil wise.

Finally, shoot this:


Now the same member who owns the 500 Nitro's new gun.



It's REAL hard to believe that this toy actually
is as effective on game as my 375 H&H, and weighs nearly 4 pounds less, yet, you can nail two jugs, in under a second:


Made me want to go to the poor man's unmentioned runner in this, 9.3 X 62, which should actually be the hands down winner of this thread, considering it's African history...
Dr. S

must be getting ready for hippo there