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To my way of thinking, it ain't much of a discussion when one party calls the other a selfish, ignorant murderer, as you have done above. I would expect that from an Islamic jihadist. For my part, I'm going to have to go ahead and continue to respectfully disagree with you on this subject.  You and all other critics of visiting or hunting in Iran should feel free, of course, to continue your indirect funding of the Iranian government by purchasing consumer goods in international commerce.  Now, please excuse me, while I take a break from this less than stimulating debate, and go outside to shovel the latest foot of snow, before the next two feet lands tomorrow. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Using indirect connection to justify direct involvement is childish logic. | |||
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Does Iran or your money which supports Iran by your indirect purchases know the difference? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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no, but I do. | |||
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Good, pray explain the difference for the rest of us. Inasmuch as it justifies repeatedly browbeating fellow hunters, that is. | |||
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Gibbs is there some value, some good that can happen by giving a portion of my money to people that may be decent people trying to make a living? They may happen to live in Iran, but that does not make them killers of Americans. Yes some money will go to the government but some money will also go to people that are just people trying to make a living. No one said anyone needed to STFU by the way. You seem to have a problem with others having a differing opinion, does that make you a "liberal dolt" also? That seems to be your definition. You also seem to have a poor view of your fellow man, whether they are a hunter or just a stranger. Just for your information if someone is on fire don't piss on them get a blanket or some other object to smother the flames. | |||
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Now I get, it's evil. Black hat, white hat; got it. | |||
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Good Lord, it's back...  | |||
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It is. Relax Brad, maybe see you around Andrew's campfire with Peter one day and it'll all be put into perspective. Good luck with the Zambian adventure, it sounds like a decent chance at some real adventure. | |||
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It is going to be a blast, I think Andrew has a couple of spots, you should come. | |||
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I would have gone for a buff with him in November had not life intervened. I corresponded with the guy a bit when he first joined and rather like his way of doing things. This year is out for me for the same reasons I'm afraid or I'd be there in a heartbeat. I see that Anders is interested, if he comes along watch out as he's 6'9" and will spot the best rams before the rest of you have had a chance to complain about the long grass. | |||
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I am with Larry on this. Hunting is not about politics for most of us. The game -- of which there must be fabulous trophies today -- does not decide where to be based on politics. I'd go in a heartbeat and not worry about it. A good friend of mine is a traveling nut, member of the Explorers Club of Chicago. I think he and his wife and two girls or at least the first two have now visited over 150 countries. He says that the people of Iran are extremely warm and friendly towards Americans and I suppose most others. I well remember the days of the Shah and how he was pushed out with the active cooperation of the US Administration. I think it goes to show that our beloved leaders do not always get it right. His brother was the fanatic hunter, on the level of Elgin Gates. We owe many of the troubles there to our own stupid policies. There were other ways to handle the Shah. (I once talked to one of our spies who had been caught red-handed on his shortwave talking to the Joint Chiefs. Quite a story how he got away.)
Norman Solberg International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016. | |||
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Honestly, I do not think you are being completely fair about this. First, getting US citizens out of the way of radical extremists in Egypt, Libya, etc. is a very wise idea and does not reflect badly on the general populations's attitude towards Americans. The State Dept. does it all the time. In the case of Iran, I do believe that the local population's attitude is positive towards visitors, much more than the Iran leaders would like us to believe. Forgive me for saying this, but I have been involved in international business deals for over 40 years. I have some perspective on this in Iran and how the general people feel about their leaders. I am also a hunter. There are many countries that I do not love or respect, in terms of their governments, including several in the ME, Africa and Asia. I have long figured out that if I were deciding where to hunt of the basis of politics, I might not find any countries totally acceptable -- INCLUDING the US. <g> My opinion is that a few of us booking trips to Iran for hunts could have an enormous positive effect. Norm _____
Norman Solberg International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016. | |||
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Norm, how did the earthquake affect you? Are you all right? Needless to say, I'm with you on the hunting question. Hope all is well. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Not to hijack the thread, but since you asked, we weathered the quake just fine here, thanks. Phones have been down in many parts of Japan -- and I suspect that in many others they have ben overloaded. As you have heard, trains were out in the Tokyo area, too. We are okay and have had absolutely no problems here down in Central Japan. Now I think that it may be easier to understand why I have been so insistent on living in the particular location that we do, after having been in Osaka where we really felt the great Hanshin quake in 1995. It is not so convenient and having a car is necessary, but it is halfway up a rock mountain. We are not on former swampland that shakes like jelly, close to the shoreline or on reclaimed artificial islands, where much of the population lives here. Thus we are able to get through quakes, tsunamis and even typhoons without danger. We are even close to the town's water reservoir in case of power failures and we have a fireplace. Our area got through the 1995 Hanshin quake without any damage to any house. Down below, there was extensive damage and loss of life. Even the elevated expressways collapsed. It was amazing. Back then, based on advice from the senior executive at Sharp who talked me into coming here me here, I immediately started researching construction methods and locations. He was building a retirement home in Tokyo of steel and reinforced concrete, based on his examination of what withstood the Hanshin quake in Kobe, where the damage was worst. Because Tokyo has a history of firestorms (unlike here) he was also including fire-proof steel shutters on all windows. The current danger here has been the tsunami, not the quake. We are about 400 miles from Sendai, but that means little where tsunamis are concerned. I feel for the people up there and in Tokyo. A TV interview of a geophyicist last night said tsunamis travel at 500 miles per hour and there was absolutely no way to escape. The scenes of the wave looked slower than that, but much faster than one could get away, even by car. Very frightening.
Norman Solberg International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016. | |||
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Glad to hear all is well. Sounds like you are tucked away in a good spot. The damage this quake has done is astonishing. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I don't know about Iran, but Craig Boddington says yes to Pakistan.... http://www.sportsafield.com/no...ield/travel-troubles ....he must hate the military.....  Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Hi there Brett, although i never get involved in any political threads on this forum but since pakistan was mentioned i will give my 2 cents. someone on the first page of this thread said "name one muslim who denounces these murderers a.k.a. Taliban" and "they all think we are infidels" well i am denouncing this, i think Taliban are bad people, i think they should all be tried and hanged, and i do not think that americans or any other christians are infidels, i consider them as my brothers both religeously and socially, i have had hunters come hunt with me from all over the world, no matter what their political, religeous opinion are they have a totally different image of pakistan from what they have seen in the media. Pakistan is the only ally of USA in SE Asia who has let the americans use our soil and air space, from the time of the cold war till this modern day war on terror. before we started fighting for the americans we never had the problems of terrorism within our borders, but since then we have suffered the most. these Taliban that the pakistan army is fighting on behalf of america have killed more pakistani people then any other. then how can i consider them muslims? they even consider US as infidels. but Sir you must remember that these are the same people (including O.B.Laden) who were trained by the CIA, they were promoted as holy warriors and supported with money, arms and what not to fight the soviets in afghanistan, when the war ended the americans left all these arms and these so called holy warriors to their fate, (watch the movie charlie wilson's war)  donald rumsfield with saddam hussain  i will request all of you people that please do not generalise, do not preach hate, if some people within the muslim world is preaching hate that doesnt mean you should stoop down to their level and at the same time you should not assume that all muslims or the religeon of Islam is like that. i would also like to mention that when a country goes to war in another country, there are casualties from both sides. as far as the tactics used by these people are concerned, they are un-ethical for sure (it was the same in vietnam wasnt it?) how come no one says anything bad about their religeon? war is a bad thing, there are always heart rendering stories from both sides. there are always horrible and sad pictures from both sides.   this is senator charlie wilson who in the early 80s helped these mujahadin get funded by america so they can fight a jihad against russia in afghanistan, it is the very same mujahadin that have turned into taliban now. the following picture is of the then CIA director william webster along with ISI chief General Hamid Gul in a mujahadin training camp in afghanistan Richard J Kerr, the dep director of CIA at the time meeting with gulbuddin Hekmatyar. <a href="http://http://supportdanielboyd.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/hekmatyar_richard_kerr.jpg?w=300&h=235" target="_blank">http://supportdanielboyd.files...kerr.jpg?w=300&h=235 below: senator charlie wilson with the then mujahadin and now taliban:  http://supportdanielboyd.files...pg?w=600&h=400</a> the Rich texan lady lobbyist Joanne Herring shown below with the jihadis  senator Hamphery Garden with the Afghan Jehadis in 80s  all these pictures have been extracted from the internet, just google in and u'll get em all. so you see my friends, war is NOT a good thing, from whichever angle u see it from, there are many other horrible pics that i found in appropriate posting on this thread, but google in (abu ghuraib torture pictures) (victims of drone attacks pics) and so on. so when you go to war there will be casualties from both sides. also my friends from USA should not ignore the fact that this disease of Taliban, this menace of jihadism was created by the US govt. during the cold war era. honestly speaking it was a good thing to get red of the bloody commies because pakistan would have been next, but the way US handled things after soviets surrendered was very wrong. if they cared enough to spend billions of dollars on funding mujahadin they could very well have stayed on a bit longer and built a proper govt, parliament, de weaponisation, building of schools and so on. but the govt of the time in US did not think it was necessary to do so. finally i would again like to remind all my friends here that we all are human beings, yes even people who are not americans are human beings, someone on one of these threads coined a sentence "not all muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are muslims" this is another misconception, there are many other terrorist groups operating in thailand, cambodia, India, chile etc here is the list of all terrorist organisations as recognised by US govt, (please note that all are not muslims): http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups.cfm best regards Danish | |||
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Brett, I just read all your previous posts, and i apologise, my message was not directed at you , but towards all those who think hunting in Pakistan would be the same as funding terrorism, we are a very moderate nation and Taliban are hated as much by us as any civilised people, i am attaching a video to indicate what excellant relations pakistan has enjoyed with America in the past. so please my fellow hunters, not all muslims are terrorists, and please do not generalise. best wishes to you all | |||
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also another video i found regarding the good relationship pakistan has always had with USA | |||
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I'm in total agreement. And while we're at representing our countries please note not all Americans are ignorant bigotted fools. Thanks. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Danish, I may have missed it, but I cannot remember anyone suggesting that hunitng in Pakistan was the same as funding terrorism, or even a negative thing for that matter. | |||
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@505 gibbs, i did read a few threads where people were showing some concern, and then brett wrote in the above post (he said it as a joke im sure but i just wanted to clarify my country's position) that craig boddington said yes to pakistan obviously he hates the us military. besides clarifying the pakistan issue though and more importantly i was trying to explain in my earlier post that not all muslims are extremists, there is always a rotten apple amongst everyone, so my humble request to all my fellow hunters is that kindly dont generalise. Pakistan is the biggest muslim country in the world (population wise) and the most powerful islamic country as well (the only islamic country to posses nuclear capability) and because of this we have a big say amongst muslim countries and you all know that pakistan is on YOUR side against the war on terror, http://www.defencetalk.com/pic...eed-yasir-abbas.html we have lost many young and brave soldiers like the one u'll see in the link above fighting with terrorists. they sneak in from afghanistan, they look like us, they dress like us, they speak the same language so its easy for them to hide here, but we are continously fighting them. 80% of the prisoners in guantanamo bay prison were caught by our military dictator musharaf and sent to usa (not that i support that act by the way because many innocent people were also sent amongst the culprits and were later released only to tell horrible stories of torture) but my point is that dont push every muslim away from you, even the ones on your side by blaming the religeon in general. | |||
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Danish, no doubt there are zealots in every society, this thread is testimony to that. And as shown, many times they are the ones pointing the finger at others. | |||
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i agree with you.. +1 | |||
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by the way, sorry mr. Robinson, I dint mean to hijack ur post, just coz pakistan's name was mentioned i thought i'd giv my opinion, best regards Danish | |||
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Great balanced post Danish. I truly pray that Pakistan regains its peace and political stability, for the sake of its people. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Sind_Ibex, all in all I enjoyed reading your posts. It's nitpicking to point out that the Taliban didn't exist when the Afghanis were fighting the Soviets. But it's indisputable that we Americans do get things wrong from time to time. Such as not backing the Iranian green revolution. I consider the Iranians a civilized people. Their government, however is not. The atrocities the government inflicted upon their own people when they rightly protested a stolen election were unspeakable. The atrocities being inflicted upon imprisoned dissidents are still unspeakable. I've heard too many stories from Iranians who are refugees in this country to doubt the stories the dissidents manage to filter out of prison to eventually wind up in the press. Even if that country wasn't at war with my own, albeit by proxy, I couldn't hunt in Iran. My conscience wouldn't let me, as I would still feel I was betraying my friends who fled that country. I can't imagine moving one step in a direction that might imply I approve of the regime currently brutalizing their own people, let alone one that is financing and arming people killing my brothers in arms. So, agian, I couldn't hunt in Iran. Unless I could hunt the Basij. That was one option that was left off the list, and I'm sure I could find plenty of willing local guides. | |||
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Careful CFS, if you interfere with anyones hunting on this forum, you will be labled an "ignorant bigoted fool", etc.. Mostly by those who would gladly pay government tags, licenses and taxes to a country who is actively using their assets to murder and maim our troops. | |||
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I can hardly see how I'm interfering with anyone's hunting by voicing an opinion on the internet. Even if that opinion is that I can't respect someone's decision to hunt in Iran. For you and I, obviously, the number one deal killer is that the Iranian government is at war with us and has been since they took over our Tehran embassy in 1979. So for us, and those like us, it's a matter of not betraying the trust of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines who are serving their country and have to face down the terrorists who have been trained and armed by Iran. But this is an international forum and obviously not everyone sees things the same way. But the other side of the coin is that the Iranian revolution created a lot of refugees. I had the pleasure of getting to know some of them. They hated what the theocracy has done to their country. When word filters out of Iran, it's obvious many Iranians who didn't manage to escape hate it, too. So even if deal killer number one was off the table, deal killer number two would still remain. I get the impression the Iranian people expected more from the west, the US in particular, when they rose up in protest against Ahmadinejad and the regime he represents, and we let them down. To suggest I consider Iran as a hunting destination does more than trivialize their struggle and suffering. It would suggest I'm OK with the current state of affairs that they have to live with daily. I'm not. I realize I run the risk of turning this into something more appropriate to the political forum, but to me this runs deeper than politics. How do I look the Iranians that I know here in the US in the eye and tell them I'm looking forward to spending my vacation time in the country run by the people who have some of their relatives in prison for political crimes? | |||
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Well said CFS......although I'd like to wear the rose-colored glasses and ignore international politics(translated: outright hatred of America by their gov't), I just can't do it. | |||
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I agree with you, but you must understand the fact that there is no such thing as taliban, this word has been coined at a later stage, for example if you have hunted in africa you will know that the outfitters who keep a look out for all the animals in their concession give them nick names. if there is a leopard with a short tail they will name him stubby for example, taliban is a name given to these extremists by us civilised people. the word taliban itself means literally 'student' they were the students of madersahs opened by extremists, this was the alternate form of education that these afghani kids got when the soviets were defeated by the USA in the cold war and everybody left the people of Afghanistan to their fate. the taliban are the same people who first fought the soviets because they were made to believe that they are the aethiest infidels, and now they are fighting the usa because they are made to believe that americans are the new infidels. u must remember that osama bin laden was trained by the CIA in those early days to fight in afghanistan, its a fact that no one has ever denied uptill now. you must read a book written by a pakistani author . its called 'a case of exploding mangoes' (it should be available on amazon.com) it tells u exactly how these fanatics were born. as far as the Iranian govt. is concerned i will only defend my country and my religeon here because i know for a fact that Pakistan is a moderate country (and im thankful to all my friends here because all of you have agreed with me) and Islam is not the religeon of extremists and fanatics. it is a religeon of peace and as a muslim i condemn taliban, as a muslim i condenm any act of terrorism both against muslims and non muslims. i have not hunted in Iran and not visited Iran yet, but from what i have heard is that like pakistan they have community based hunting programmes in place, this is the same system as we have in pakistan, what happens is that any revenue generated from trophy hunting, 80% goes towards the local villagers who in return protect the animals that face extinction, the remaining 20% goes towards the wages of the wild life dept. officials. i am a hunter, for me even if there was a sheep specie facing extinction in india (pakistan's arch enemy most people say) i would still work to help conserve it. if it is indeed a fact that by hunting in Iran ur actually helping the local villagers (the comman man) and the wild life then i think every american should make sure to hunt there because isnt it what America goes to war with other countries for? to help the people? american went to war with Iraq to liberate the people from the tyranical rule of saddam did it not? it funded the afghan war so the poor people of afghanistan can liberate them selves from the communist soviets did it not? | |||
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Sind_Ibex, you make a very powerful case. But I'm still compelled to stand with my friends and decline to hunt in Iran. Sometimes the organization picks my friend for me. The organization picks, I might add, many muslims. The most prominent of which that I can think of is CDR Muhammad Muzzafar Khan USN, a Pakastani-born muslim who once commanded sea control squadron 31. Sometimes I pick my own friends. Hence the Iranians. The question remians, how do I look them in the eye and tell them I spent money Iran can use against them. | |||
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@CFS, i respect your opinion my friend, and im not trying to convince anyone to go hunting in Iran. lol :-) all im saying is that we all are hunters here, from what i understand of the community based hunting initiative we will not fund any govt in fact we will be helping the poor people who lives in these villages, these same people who are now helping conserve the beautiful species of wild sheep if hunters like us dont put a value on these animals by hunting them then these people will have no choice but to use these sheep as food source, someone once told me that every good hunter is a good conservationist. so i ask all my friends here to correct me if im wrong, you have no issues with having iranian friends in usa and elsewhere, your governments are always getting involved 'themselves' in other countries because they want to help the poor people liberate themselves of tyrans, they send their armies to these countries (not the other way round) and obviously just like i would defend my country, you would defend yours, they will also defend theirs through whatever means they have available, but the point is how is hunting in Iran a wrong thing to do for an american through which you are helping conserve these beautiful animals and at the same time helping a community of these mountain folks (who by the way are very hospitable to their guests whether american or russian from what i have read in the hunting reports), in my humble opinion (and i will still respect anyone who would differ from me) any hunter who goes to Iran for the purpose of hunting is only helping conserve endangered species, they are going to iran to prove to the common man over there that whatever their govts tells them about americans hating you etc is all false, that americans are a peaceful people, they are a just people, and they do not have any racial prejudices. | |||
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Just so you know the reasons I'm not hunting Iran have nothing to do with racial or religious prejudices, we're cool. | |||
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Danish, Are you stating that when you hunt in Iran, no money goes to the government? | |||
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Brad, Not particularly meant for you or CFS. I see and hear enough "towel head", "all muslims are terorists", and "we should nuke the whole place" to leave me slightly nauseated. I don't know that your bigotted and I can certainly respect your and CFS view....especially CFS as he's able to converse with respect to other people without resorting to name calling and posting rediculous pictures. Ignorant? I don't know. Intellegent people tend to make their point without being inflamitory, name calling , and/or childish antics. It seems to be the norm with you and your brother. You definitely have something worth while to contribute which is probably why I haven't ingored you, but it wouldn't hurt to work on your method of delivery: "Well, for all of you cold heartless treacherous AMERICAN/ALLY hunters" "is suicide by proxy and puts the blood of those fine men and women on your hands." "Hey Ghoober, thanks for making my point." "Gato, you just defined yourself as sheeple." "couple more of you and we'll have a whole herd of sheeple." "SkinnyButt, try Surah 9 of the Quran, you are mistaken." "particularly to those unwilling to curb their own desires even when it funds the murder of their own." "you have got to be kidding me, Express, please, your genes are showing...." "if ur tawkin tu me ur gonna haf to speke amerikun..." "You are a typical liberal dolt......You and many others on this forum need to get a life, you think you are an insider of some brotherhood, most of your "fellow hunters" wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire." ""Lion Conservation" huh? You're a joke." "you are almost too stupid to live, go back and read the posts simpleton." These are just a few gems from only two threads. Just a thought. Brett PS. I find this quote really sad: "You and many others on this forum need to get a life, you think you are an insider of some brotherhood, most of your "fellow hunters" wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire." I can only guess that's your thought towards other hunters or people on here, but I sure hope I'm wrong. I and many others on here have good friends from this site and have found a lot of good people. On a number of occasions I've had total strangers from here do very nice things for me for no other reason than I was a fellow AR member and hunter. I can say the same thing for people I've casually met (strangers) at a shooting range or other place that helped me out for no other reason than I'm a fellow hunter. DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Oh I love the smell of self-righteous garbage. Forget about this one Brett? "................what??? Stirring shit and being idiot on internet forums doesn't count? Keep up the good work Lane! Ignore them. They aren't worth the effort!" Yeah it took about two minutes to find that. You want me to keep digging? I find it amusing that Micheal Robinson's soul purpose for this thread was to bash anyone who said they would not hunt in Iran, and your soul purpose for posting here was to bash two other hunters. Plenty of people on this forum openly hate my guts and in all honestly that bothers me very little. They are men that can say what they mean and make a stand. But you are a hypocrite, and that doesn't ad up to much of a man in my book. Next time you want to complain about what other people smell like have a look in your trousers. | |||
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