a previous poster raised a really interesting solution to all the world's problems. Spay and neuter Democrats. The abortion problem would be instantly solved.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Why is this a particularly US phenomenon?

If "we" knew the answer, couldn't we "fix" it?

I did a search on the question, and found a lot on what the status is, but nothing on Why, so far. "We" know the problem, just not the why or the cure.

https://www.google.com/search?...b-AQ&sclient=gws-wiz

I'm still thinking and searching, but it's late.

My thought is that it's related to the reasons Trump is the GOP candidate.

And also related to this post in another thread:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
How unfortunate that we used to all think The State of the Union address and national debates were at one time, "must see tv" and now it's a carnival side show if not just repulsive.

There's no way I'll watch, I'll read the news about it I need to.

Maybe I'm connecting dots that don't connect, but I think they do somehow.

Of course we know the answer and of course we can fix it but we won't.

Be responsible, be respectful. Embrace the "Fruits of the Spirit", reject the, "Sins of the Flesh". Make some kind of effort at following the Ten Commandments.

"Self Magazine" is one of my favorite examples of the decay of our nation and society. Nevermind being a parent, neighbor, relative, friend or fellow American, "Self" is all about you.

Maybe we need more of our fellow PF members to breed. Maybe Wimple and Doc Lane, maybe LHeym and Mjines and Mitchell as well as Jtex need to put some more genes in the public school system and influence the next generation.

quote:

The charges filed against the father seem abundantly justified to me.

By this reasoning if you bought your 16 year old a car and they Plowed through a Gay Pride Parade and Killed four. The Father would be Charged? The Kid was Gay.They always are?

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:

quote:

The charges filed against the father seem abundantly justified to me.

By this reasoning if you bought your 16 year old a car and they Plowed through a Gay Pride Parade and Killed four. The Father would be Charged? The Kid was Gay.They always are?

We knew you were a POS before this post, no doubt about it now.

Sexual orientation has zero to do with this. The bullying that the shooter received is worthy of discussion.

quote:

The Father would be Charged? The Kid was Gay.

So it's okay for fathers to help their sons kill gay people?

Is that your point?

quote:

So it's okay for fathers to help their sons kill gay people?

Who said that ?No difference between buying your Kid a Car or a Gun?(both Weapons) The only Difference is a Gun is Protected under The U.S. Constitution.

There is a difference cars by design and marketing are not meant to kill.

And if you give your drunk son the keys or know he is not legal to drive and he kills someone driving, yes, you will be charged too.

We have two such prosecutions going on now.

Happens everyday all day.

Yes if the child was gay he would be charged and so would the father all other facts being the same.

The right to possess fur self defense and other historically recognized purposes is protected under the Constitution.

Murder is not.

I think Scott has the answer to a large part of the question.
Parents just dont parent like they used to. The guns have always been there. Hi capacity handguns have always been there. And now it seems parents are not there.
I was shocked at first about the parents being charged for their kids actions. Now I am on board, the parents in many cases are at fault.
Kabob is being an idiot. Trumps fault? This started way before Trump. Remember "going Postal" You can blame the gov postal dept. than for starting mass shootings.
To many others dont want to get involved, even when they see issues. Jines is a good example. Bitches, but does nothing, or maybe it will hurt business?
I put this out there to everyone. Why dont you do more, get involved?

I disagree that the guns were always there. I grew up in a state where owning a handgun was extremely rare, I literally knew one person who owned a handgun growing up. Even rifles other than rimfire were rare, it was shotgun country, we used shotguns for everything from rabbits to deer. It was completely unheard of for a 14-year-old to own an AR15 when I was growing up. The fact that a troubled teen who was visited by the FBI for making threats to shoot up a school was then gifted the gun he used to commit the shooting is certainly part of the problem in my opinion.

quote:

There is a difference cars by design and marketing are not meant to kill.

And if you give your drunk son the keys or know he is not legal to drive and he kills someone driving, yes, you will be charged too.

Guns are Marketed to Kill People? The Shooter wasn't Drunk? This could all be stopped today. Put 4 Armed guards in Every School. This Shooter dropped his weapon and Surrendered the Minute he saw a Gun. In 2019 Harris said we want NO Armed Guards in our Schools. Safe Zones=Kill Zones Google the Shooting and all you see is HIS DAD WAS ARRESTED. It is nothing more than a Step Closer to Disarming all Legal U.S. Citizens

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
I disagree that the guns were always there. I grew up in a state where owning a handgun was extremely rare, I literally knew one person who owned a handgun growing up. Even rifles other than rimfire were rare, it was shotgun country, we used shotguns for everything from rabbits to deer. It was completely unheard of for a 14-year-old to own an AR15 when I was growing up. The fact that a troubled teen who was visited by the FBI for making threats to shoot up a school was then gifted the gun he used to commit the shooting is certainly part of the problem in my opinion.

Browning A-5 w/ 20” barrel, 00 buck, and a bandolier of shells — same thing.

I was born in 1965. Shot my first pistol .22 Ruger Bearcat in 1972. Carried it in the country by 1975 and started shooting a WWII 1911 the same year. Somewhere in the mid/late 70s…a friend got a Colt AR. We carried it around in our trucks, often times to school, and shot it all the time.

The guns were always there.

The A5 makes no distinction. Except, that A5 are not the weapon of choice for these mass murder incidents. There is a reason no one is using Hebert lever actions.

I was 14 and had guns in my room. Does not change the fact we need a national secure firearms with children on the home.

My buddy is a bigger gun guy than you, but a kid getting daddy’s block and killing himself was all it took to get one of those quick access night stands.

It is not asking a lot to take reasonable precaution. If you want to roll the dice w your kid, so be it.

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:

quote:

There is a difference cars by design and marketing are not meant to kill.

And if you give your drunk son the keys or know he is not legal to drive and he kills someone driving, yes, you will be charged too.

Guns are Marketed to Kill People? The Shooter wasn't Drunk? This could all be stopped today. Put 4 Armed guards in Every School. This Shooter dropped his weapon and Surrendered the Minute he saw a Gun. In 2019 Harris said we want NO Armed Guards in our Schools. Safe Zones=Kill Zones Google the Shooting and all you see is HIS DAD WAS ARRESTED. It is nothing more than a Step Closer to Disarming all Legal U.S. Citizens

Yes that is why Sig took down a bunch of advertising and Remington got sued back into bankruptcy. Think of all the self defense commercials and taticool mall Nina commercials you used to see.

The father knew this child was in crisis and a danger just like someone giving the keys to a drunk. The outcome is foreseeable.

And again as TB40 said, the guns were always there.

And no, I don’t “roll-the-dice” with my children…I take an active roll in their lives.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
I disagree that the guns were always there. I grew up in a state where owning a handgun was extremely rare, I literally knew one person who owned a handgun growing up. Even rifles other than rimfire were rare, it was shotgun country, we used shotguns for everything from rabbits to deer. It was completely unheard of for a 14-year-old to own an AR15 when I was growing up. The fact that a troubled teen who was visited by the FBI for making threats to shoot up a school was then gifted the gun he used to commit the shooting is certainly part of the problem in my opinion.

Browning A-5 w/ 20” barrel, 00 buck, and a bandolier of shells — same thing.

I was born in 1965. Shot my first pistol .22 Ruger Bearcat in 1972. Carried it in the country by 1975 and started shooting a WWII 1911 the same year. Somewhere in the mid/late 70s…a friend got a Colt AR. We carried it around in our trucks, often times to school, and shot it all the time.

The guns were always there.

Same thing, except no one uses an A5.

The availability of hi-cap firearms was no where near what it is today when I was growing up.

The guns used in these mass shootings were not always there in the quantity that they are today.

I dont get your post Steve. You disagree guns were always there, than say you had shotguns. A shotgun isnt a gun?
UK has strict gun laws, so knifings are a problem. You think if everyone had only a shotgun, that is not what would be used? It's a parent problem, first and foremost.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I dont get your post Steve. You disagree guns were always there, than say you had shotguns. A shotgun isnt a gun?
UK has strict gun laws, so knifings are a problem. You think if everyone had only a shotgun, that is not what would be used? It's a parent problem, first and foremost.

A shotgun is most certainly a gun, but not the gun that is used in these shootings.

Gun culture has changed, the availability of hi-cap firearms is much, much greater than when I was growing up. I had two semi-auto's growing up, a cheap rimfire and an 11-48 Remington 12 ga. Nobody in their right mind chooses either of those to go on a shooting spree.

It may very well be a parent problem first and foremost, but the increased availability of hi-cap firearms and the change in our gun culture certainly are contributing factors in my mind. If that kids father did not gift him an AR we would not be having this discussion.

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Nobody in their right mind chooses either of those to go on a shooting spree.

If that kids father did not gift him an AR we would not be having this discussion.

Sorry for selectively quoting your post. I just couldn't resist.

How many mass shootings occur with a rimfire? Sporting shotguns?

Not many....

Period covered is 2000 - 2022. If the issue is moral decay and progressive parenting, then why are countries like France, Germany and Canada at disproportionally lower levels? Perhaps we should take a look at what countries do that are successful in limiting school shootings.

quote:

Yes that is why Sig took down a bunch of advertising and Remington got sued back into bankruptcy. Think of all the self defense commercials and taticool mall Nina commercials you used to see.

The father knew this child was in crisis and a danger just like someone giving the keys to a drunk. The outcome is foreseeable.

A danger to who? Himself? The Kid was Gay. A firearm Company that pushes their Firearms for Self Defense by Design isn't telling you to Kill someone with it. If that was The Case you could be charged with giving a Gay Son or Daughter a knife if they used it to Kill someone. You won't be because they are not trying to Grab Knives they are trying to Grab Guns. They are making a Statement give your Kids Firearms and we Will Prosecute you. They did the same thing when they said if your Gun was Stolen and used in a Crime we will Prosecute you. Guess what. A Democrat Mayors home was broken into and his Gun was Stolen. Guess what in 7 Days The FBI Claimed they recovered it!!!

I'm sure the 12 killed, 58 wounded by Holmes with a shotgun at the Aurora theater are glad to hear a shotgun is useless.
Steve, I have been in combat, including house and alley close quarter combat. There is a reason every Federal, state and local armory have shotguns. There is a reason every branch of the military have them. They work.
I had a VZ Skorpion I picked up on an op, I used for close range work. But I also carried an FN FAL, I'm a powerful man and didnt mind the extra weight to get the power. But there were always a couple shotguns brought out of packs for close quarter work, when a M4 was not the best.
Until you have as much experience as I do in combat, I am not going to take your word on what works and what doesnt.

. . . shotguns do not appear to be the root of the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm sure the 12 killed, 58 wounded by Holmes with a shotgun at the Aurora theater are glad to hear a shotgun is useless.
Steve, I have been in combat, including house and alley close quarter combat. There is a reason every Federal, state and local armory have shotguns. There is a reason every branch of the military have them. They work.
I had a VZ Skorpian I picked up on an op, I used for close range work. But I also carried an FN FAL, I'm a powerful man and didnt mind the extra weight to get the power. But there were always a couple shotguns brought out of packs for close quarter work, when a M4 was not the best.
Until you have as much experience as I do in combat, I am not going to take your word on what works and what doesnt.

I did not say shotguns were useless. I said a shotgun to AR is the same problem.

And shotguns are not the weapon of choice based on statics for this offense.

Take away AR style, and they will be next in line to use. That is the point. They do serious damage, and are overlooked because they are not "cool" to the kids.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Take away AR style, and they will be next in line to use. That is the point. They do serious damage, and are overlooked because they are not "cool" to the kids.

The semi-auto pistol will trump the shotgun for coolness every fucking time. IIRC they are right behind the AR style rifles in terms of most used. You can compare all you want to but the simple FACT remains that you can't use an AR style rifle in a crime if you don't have one or you can't get one.

You can prevent a drive by shooting by outlawing a vehicle or a weapon. If society is going to choose which to keep, guess which one would likey get the boot.

So you join the other fools saying, " if only we didnt have AR's we would have no school shootings"? Keep on with that thought process.

Semi auto handguns are used is large multiples of 10 more than all types of rifles, according to the fbi stats

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
So you join the other fools saying, " if only we didnt have AR's we would have no school shootings"? Keep on with that thought process.

I said there would be no AR style school shootings. In this particular incident under discussion who knows what he would have done had he not had that AR.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Semi auto handguns are used is large multiples of 10 more than all types of rifles, according to the fbi stats

It depends on the number of deaths that occurred in the shooting. FBI defines it as four or more.

I don't know how often an AR is used in these massacres that involve 10 or 15 or 20 kids but it seems like that is the weapon of choice in those instances.

Back 40 makes a good point about sotguns As a policeman, and without adequate information, I answered a call of a "disturbance at a bar...Pretty routine, I just walked in..right into a full house of Hells Angles!

Ah shit ! Well...you can't show any fear, so just elbowed my way to speak to the barkeep, but kept my back to the bar. Well... You just know...... these ass holes were sizing me up

The whole situation changed 180 when a fellow officer walked in and racked his 870.

Everyone knows that sound and everyone takes notice. We cleared the place without incident.

If determined to cause a mass shooting, they will not give up on the plan. They will use something else, there is no way of getting around that.
It is why the parents, and others, need to be involved, AND LISTEN to what is going on with kids.
I'm still waiting for Jines to tell us, being as concerned as he is, what time he invests.

The thought that if they do not have an automatic pistol, they will use an automatic rifle. If they do not have an automatic rifle, they will use a shotgun. If they do not have a shotgun, they will use a knife. If they do not have a knife, they will use a rock. Unremarkable response but entirely speculative. Also it ignores that as we move down the weapon chart, the opportunity to take out multiple victims lessens. Also ignores the actual experience in other countries. The fellow they are searching for in Tennessee bought his AR the day before he started shooting cars on the freeway. As I recall the Uvalde shooter bought his weapon shortly before the shooting. When you have the GOP candidate telling folks that school shootings in the US are just a sad fact of life, you might pause and consider whether we might try another approach. The approach we are currently using is failing bigly.

We already know it is not speculative, that is a flat outright lie.
The UK has a knife problem, why? According to you, there should be no crime at all with the guns so strictly regulated.

178 knife offensives per 100,000 in the UK.
Yeah, no-one would ever use a knife if guns are gone.

I don't have any use for an AR-15. But they make a great target for antis to chase.

So long as "assault weapons" are the target, they won't come after the "sniper rifles" I use to hunt with.

Data confuses you doesn’t it. Please let’s try to stick with apples-to-apples comparisons. I did not cite numbers for the total killed in the US using firearms, I cited information pertaining to mass shootings. If we want to look at mass stabbing versus mass shootings generally we can. Let’s look at mass stabbings in the UK. Since 2020, there have been 11. The total number of people killed has been 18. In the US, just so far in 2024, there have been 432 mass shootings resulting in 527 deaths. Sorry the facts just do not support your contention that if you take away the weapons of choice, there will be the same number of events using alternative weapons much less the same number of fatalities.

Don't forget the affect of culture on the willingness to resort to violence. Japan has fewer mass stabbings than the UK.

Why does it Matter if One Child is Killed or more? Put Armed Police in Schools and it Stops.

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
Why does it Matter if One Child is Killed or more? Put Armed Police in Schools and it Stops.

Psst! That will cost you more taxes.