quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

We need more revenue.

There is only so many wedges in the pie.

15% on capital gains incentives people to have good economic habits.

And contributes to our huge and unmanageable federal deficit.

I have heard it all now. It makes zero contribution to deficits. ZERO. Deficits are attained by spending more than you have in your wallet.

We need to change what we are doing and it is going hurt, that is reality.

Spending needs to be reduced, and taxes need to rise.

Trump is proposing tariffs to solve our problems which pushes the burden even more on to those who struggle.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
And I believe this one
https://finance.yahoo.com/news...mends-114500817.html

https://fortune.com/2024/08/15...ncome-national-debt/

Assuming Vice President Harris’s billionaire minimum tax and stock buyback tax plans are similar to the proposals in President Biden’s FY 2025 budget, we estimate that her plan to increase taxes on capital income would raise roughly $750 billion over a decade as written, or $900 billion if they include President Biden’s proposal to tax capital gains at death before allowing for stepped up basis.

https://www.crfb.org/blogs/kam...axing-capital-income


The main component I would change is to make sure foreign investors are also taxed with a failure to pay resulting in assets seized.

You recall that these projections are over a decade, not per year

So, 900/10.. 90 billion a year..

Less than 1% of current year DEFICIT

These guys went to law school for a reason…they are not math majors.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

We need more revenue.

There is only so many wedges in the pie.

15% on capital gains incentives people to have good economic habits.

And contributes to our huge and unmanageable federal deficit.

I have heard it all now. It makes zero contribution to deficits. ZERO. Deficits are attained by spending more than you have in your wallet.

We need to change what we are doing and it is going hurt, that is reality.

Spending needs to be reduced, and taxes need to rise.

Trump is proposing tariffs to solve our problems which pushes the burden even more on to those who struggle.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
But Steve, as Dr. B has pointed out, you make a great case for flat tax.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
But Steve, as Dr. B has pointed out, you make a great case for flat tax.

A better case for closing the loop holes and going after the tax cheats

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
But Steve, as Dr. B has pointed out, you make a great case for flat tax.

A better case for closing the loop holes and going after the tax cheats

uhmm,
while you may say "cheats" the IRS says "they are following the rules, even after audit"


some people confuse their moral code with legality -- heck, some people even think "justice" has ANYTHING to do with "legality"

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

We need more revenue.

There is only so many wedges in the pie.

15% on capital gains incentives people to have good economic habits.

And contributes to our huge and unmanageable federal deficit.

I have heard it all now. It makes zero contribution to deficits. ZERO. Deficits are attained by spending more than you have in your wallet.

We need to change what we are doing and it is going hurt, that is reality.

Spending needs to be reduced, and taxes need to rise.

Trump is proposing tariffs to solve our problems which pushes the burden even more on to those who struggle.

Deficits are a two sided issue, not matter how hard you try to paint it as just spending it is an income VS spending issue. You are correct that we are spending too much, you are incorrect when you fail to take into account the need for increased revenue.

Deficits only occur by spending.

Tax shelters for the wealthy directly contribute to our deficits.

No, they don’t. Don’t spend what you don’t have.

Were the current laws that favor the rich not enacted, they would have paid more in taxes, thus lower the deficit.

They were enacted on sound economic concept.

You knew that, you just don't want to admit it

All I know is that 50% of what you say is plainly incorrect.

Grover Norquist would be proud of you. We might go broke as a country, but gosh darn it, the rich won't pay more in taxes.

Only so many wedges in a pie. We take in plenty. Learn to spend wisely.

Amazing to me.

That you think that deficits come from anything other than over spending amazes me.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Some folks are too simple to understand that you can't save your way out of a 34 trillion dollar debt

The tax burden is just being shifted. Enacted by Trump, left in place by Biden, an inflation driver and a costs passed directly to the Consumer.

https://taxfoundation.org/rese...riffs-biden-tariffs/

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
And if your bank account starts running low do you only reduce spending or do you look for a way to make more money as well?

It is really very simple, we have been spending too much money for decades, and at the same time reducing our tax tax rates. The combo has got us to where we are today.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/...0?amount=74000000000


Debt has skyrocketed, due to increased spending and reduced tax rates, both will need to change.

It is a fantasy to think you can save your way out of this mess.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
You don’t get your rate down to 15% without diligence — I can tell you from experience.

That is where the problem is, you have identified it perfectly, the wealthy should not be able to pay 15% on the income they make when joe average pays a higher rate.

Because all forms of income are not created equal and some form need to be incentivized for the overall health of the economy.

Personal savings for retirement for instance should be incentivized. Lower capital gains rates does that. Some people are just more savvy at getting it done to where they can live on the profits of their invested savings. I see nothing wrong with that. Why would we not want incentivize that behavior?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

it's called "austerity measures" -- literally the only proven way to get out of debt ... That is 1/2 of the equation, bring in more revenue and you are on your way to getting out of debt. That is the only I have been able to do it in my life and business.

but you don't care about the debt, you only care about "sticking it to the rich" even though they already pay all the bills, both percentage and gross dollars Hardly, I have repeatedly said, and will once again, that I expect myself to need to pay more taxes. I'm not rich, I need to pay more too.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
And if your bank account starts running low do you only reduce spending or do you look for a way to make more money as well?

It is really very simple, we have been spending too much money for decades, and at the same time reducing our tax tax rates. The combo has got us to where we are today.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/...0?amount=74000000000


Debt has skyrocketed, due to increased spending and reduced tax rates, both will need to change.

It is a fantasy to think you can save your way out of this mess.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Lane

It amazes me that you refuse to accept that tax cuts for the rich is a form of spending.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If we have been reducing tax rates, how is it that revenue is quite a bit higher than ever before?

And raising revenue by higher taxes has been tried in the past and dramatically hurt the economy.

Remember the old luxury tax that killed some industries like private aviation?

The way to responsibly increase revenue is to grow the economy while holding the line on spending.

If you cut rates and get rid of loopholes then the folks paying more don’t have a moral leg to stand on. Making the high earners punitively pay all of it looks like legal theft.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
And if your bank account starts running low do you only reduce spending or do you look for a way to make more money as well?

It is really very simple, we have been spending too much money for decades, and at the same time reducing our tax tax rates. The combo has got us to where we are today.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/...0?amount=74000000000


Debt has skyrocketed, due to increased spending and reduced tax rates, both will need to change.

It is a fantasy to think you can save your way out of this mess.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If we have been reducing tax rates, how is it that revenue is quite a bit higher than ever before?

And raising revenue by higher taxes has been tried in the past and dramatically hurt the economy.

Remember the old luxury tax that killed some industries like private aviation?

The way to responsibly increase revenue is to grow the economy while holding the line on spending.

If you cut rates and get rid of loopholes then the folks paying more don’t have a moral leg to stand on. Making the high earners punitively pay all of it looks like legal theft.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
And if your bank account starts running low do you only reduce spending or do you look for a way to make more money as well?

It is really very simple, we have been spending too much money for decades, and at the same time reducing our tax tax rates. The combo has got us to where we are today.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/...0?amount=74000000000


Debt has skyrocketed, due to increased spending and reduced tax rates, both will need to change.

It is a fantasy to think you can save your way out of this mess.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

If your argument is valid, then why has US economy declined under Republican admission in the last 50 years and redeveloped by Democrats?

Why have job numbers been lower under Republican administrations?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If we have been reducing tax rates, how is it that revenue is quite a bit higher than ever before?

And raising revenue by higher taxes has been tried in the past and dramatically hurt the economy.

Remember the old luxury tax that killed some industries like private aviation?

The way to responsibly increase revenue is to grow the economy while holding the line on spending.

If you cut rates and get rid of loopholes then the folks paying more don’t have a moral leg to stand on. Making the high earners punitively pay all of it looks like legal theft.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
And if your bank account starts running low do you only reduce spending or do you look for a way to make more money as well?

It is really very simple, we have been spending too much money for decades, and at the same time reducing our tax tax rates. The combo has got us to where we are today.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/...0?amount=74000000000


Debt has skyrocketed, due to increased spending and reduced tax rates, both will need to change.

It is a fantasy to think you can save your way out of this mess.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Who gives a sh!t whether he's filed a US tax return?

Give it a rest, for Christ's sake.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

None of your excuses are research based. Just one eyed opinions.

All US govt stats show annual figures and full historical trends.

The policies of the GOP are to favour the rich at the expense of the rest. The party funding by oligarchs and corporations versus small donors is enough evidence.

A few rich like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are exceptions. They do not support GOP's oligarchic policies.

The other parallel trend is job creation. Democratic administrations created more jobs. Reading both together is unequivocal evidence that the country does better under Democratic administrations.

Final proof is wealth distribution. The rich get richer at a faster rate during poor economic environment. They have no incentive to develop a thriving economy.

I keep pointing this out for years.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Just one eyed opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Income tax rates are historically low, especially on the rich. ...
The top rate started when the income tax began in 1913: 7 percent.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Oh, God forbid you would imitate Doc's patience and give the forum some relief from your childish spats with everyone who doesn't share your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Naki…

How much of the tax code was written back in the 20’s-30’s?

It was written by mostly democrats.

Yes, Regan reduced the top marginal rates and reduced deductions… and revenue skyrocketed to the government.

The point being both sides are involved heavily in any tax policy.

What happened to the funding cap we had?

It was removed in a bipartisan manner because politicians “need” to show results to constituents so they get reelection.

The GOP spends on prisons, law enforcement, military, foreign aid and infrastructure.

The democrats spend on social programs, education programs, foreign aid, and infrastructure.

The spending is whose ox is gored.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:


(and please, if you are going to emphasize/shout out a word, make sure its spelled right...)

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Big spending by the GOP? Yes they give money to the rich by corporate cronyism, targeted tax breaks, military contracts, noncompetitive contract bids, etc.

Just like the democrats...

The biggest one (which IIRC you were all for...) being green energy at this point in time.

You are the one putting one party on a pedestal, not me.

I said that I think the GOP's policies are a bit preferable to the democrats for me. I did not say that the GOP doesn't play games.

Citizens united was a pretty straightforward ruling that if we individually have rights to petition the government for redress of grievances, we collectively have that right as well.

Kind of by definition we don't have a criminal oligarchy as you define it. The laws are not being broken there. You are making a much better argument for us being a plutocracy by the way... Which we are not, because we vote.

(and please, if you are going to emphasize/shout out a word, make sure its spelled right...)