quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
A fair wage is fundamentally related to the productivity of the job, not some nebulous concept of what will make your life acceptable.

If a job produces too little to pay for itself, then a person isn’t going to hire you to do it.

If you produce enough to make paying you financially possible, then it’s more a negotiation about how much you should keep vs the employer keep. Since the outlawing of slavery, you have the option of leaving. All minimum wage laws do is set a governmentally arbitrary decision as to what the lowest possible point negotiations start at and what business can afford.

Basic economics.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Well laws can be changed through a due process starting w an election.

Taxing the value of stock over 100 million is a good start and better than where we are.

I hope VO Harris wins and this policy position of her’s becomes legislation.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
So-called “tax shelters” exist due to laws. These laws were created to incentivize certain economic practices by citizenry. Those economic practices were thought to have a positive effect on economic health of the nation. They were not just created as “tax shelters” for the wealthy.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
got to do something to get that revenue up.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
got to do something to get that revenue up.

34 trillion is the current debt, we pay more in interest than for defense. Revenue needs to increase, it is simple math.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
So-called “tax shelters” exist due to laws. These laws were created to incentivize certain economic practices by citizenry. Those economic practices were thought to have a positive effect on economic health of the nation. They were not just created as “tax shelters” for the wealthy.

You are painting with a mighty broad brush Lane. Some of our legislation was indeed created solely to provide tax shelters for the wealthy, certainly not all of it. At the same time, it is hard to deny that lobbyist have influenced our legislation in a way that favors the wealthy. You are not incorrect that some legislation is created to incentivize investment, but not all of it, some our legislation was designed push the tax burden on to the working class. That is why the rate the top tax bracket pays was reduced by nearly 50%, which has resulted in an increased wealth gap and contributed to out out of control deficit.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
got to do something to get that revenue up.

34 trillion is the current debt, we pay more in interest than for defense. Revenue needs to increase, it is simple math.

I didn’t spend it.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
A fair wage is fundamentally related to the productivity of the job, not some nebulous concept of what will make your life acceptable.

If a job produces too little to pay for itself, then a person isn’t going to hire you to do it.

If you produce enough to make paying you financially possible, then it’s more a negotiation about how much you should keep vs the employer keep. Since the outlawing of slavery, you have the option of leaving. All minimum wage laws do is set a governmentally arbitrary decision as to what the lowest possible point negotiations start at and what business can afford.

Basic economics.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by
The rich make the rules.

Perhaps on India but in the US 540 elected officials make the rules. It's pretty simple, one would think even a person with zero direct knowledge of the process could understand with a little coaching.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

You have left out a lit of other important factors.

The system is already rigged in favor of the top 1%. So they set the rules of preventing collective bargaining, fair tax rates etc.

Paying substandard wages AND less taxes is the double whammy. Scholars have established that such criminal oligarchy is worse than slavery.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
A fair wage is fundamentally related to the productivity of the job, not some nebulous concept of what will make your life acceptable.

If a job produces too little to pay for itself, then a person isn’t going to hire you to do it.

If you produce enough to make paying you financially possible, then it’s more a negotiation about how much you should keep vs the employer keep. Since the outlawing of slavery, you have the option of leaving. All minimum wage laws do is set a governmentally arbitrary decision as to what the lowest possible point negotiations start at and what business can afford.

Basic economics.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I've got an experiment for you and I don't want you to do it because I'm old and don't have a lot of time, but assuming no one has to die, let's run this experiment:

1. Redistribute the wealth equally to everyone. Take from the rich and give every penny to the poor such that everyone in the planet has the exact same amount of money.

2.Check back 20 years later and the same people will be rich and same people will be poor.

Wanna bet?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If you raise their wage past what the job reasonably produces, are they better off without a job?

My usual recommendation would be to avail yourself of the various vocational training that is available in your community and get a better job.

A HVAC or plumbing apprentice or journeyman electrician has a sellers market in most areas and makes a decent living.

You shouldn’t expect a living wage working 30 hours a week at a fast food place…

If all you can do is entry level work, then I suppose you qualify for the safety net, presumably you have some significant disability there.

And yes, I prefer we incentivize working for the marginal folks.

Where I work we have a bunch of folks who are doing sheltered workspace type jobs. That’s a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
got to do something to get that revenue up.

34 trillion is the current debt, we pay more in interest than for defense. Revenue needs to increase, it is simple math.

I didn’t spend it.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
got to do something to get that revenue up.

34 trillion is the current debt, we pay more in interest than for defense. Revenue needs to increase, it is simple math.

I didn’t spend it.

Me either! And I'm not promising to spend more to get elected....

CUT SPENDING!!!!

Typical leftist thinking, before anything we have to raise taxes....not cut stupid spending.....

.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

No legislation was passed with the sole intention of tax shelter for the wealthy.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

No legislation was passed with the sole intention of tax shelter for the wealthy.

Not true at all Lane, some of the tax shelters the wealthy abuse were most certainly passed with the sole intention of helping them evade taxes. That is part how we got here.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
No, the system has some inequities in it that favor SOME of the top 1%. Strangely, most of them are/favor democrats if you listen to the news and look at political contribution lists.

One point re investment income is that you either paid income tax on the original investment or you paid inheritance tax on the same. Yes there are a few folks who found a way around it, but fundamentally its double taxation.

As to fair collective bargaining, until you have had your family threatened by union activists and a dead horse head left on your front doorstep, you are not in a position to lecture me on how one sided the system is. (My grandfather)

For that matter, have you had to work double shifts outside your area of responsibility because of a strike? I have, thus you are not going to convince me how "one sided" the system is.

Sorry, having to pay excessively high rates when over half don't pay at all is not "fair tax rates".

I also doubt that there is any creditable research that shows that the US system is worse than slavery, and in fact with many of my ancestors killed in the civil war fighting for the union, I find your insinuation, well, insulting.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

You have left out a lit of other important factors.

The system is already rigged in favor of the top 1%. So they set the rules of preventing collective bargaining, fair tax rates etc.

Paying substandard wages AND less taxes is the double whammy. Scholars have established that such criminal oligarchy is worse than slavery.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
A fair wage is fundamentally related to the productivity of the job, not some nebulous concept of what will make your life acceptable.

If a job produces too little to pay for itself, then a person isn’t going to hire you to do it.

If you produce enough to make paying you financially possible, then it’s more a negotiation about how much you should keep vs the employer keep. Since the outlawing of slavery, you have the option of leaving. All minimum wage laws do is set a governmentally arbitrary decision as to what the lowest possible point negotiations start at and what business can afford.

Basic economics.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I've got an experiment for you and I don't want you to do it because I'm old and don't have a lot of time, but assuming no one has to die, let's run this experiment:

1. Redistribute the wealth equally to everyone. Take from the rich and give every penny to the poor such that everyone in the planet has the exact same amount of money.

2.Check back 20 years later and the same people will be rich and same people will be poor.

Wanna bet?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
got to do something to get that revenue up.

34 trillion is the current debt, we pay more in interest than for defense. Revenue needs to increase, it is simple math.

I didn’t spend it.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

I dealt with militant unions for 11 years. Negotiated with Communist unions. I personally faced at least 6 strikes. I have been mobbed at least 6 times and my life was at threat on more then one occasion. I had a mob of 50 people baying for blood while I had local village politicians in my house threatening to beat me up.

quote:

We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If you raise their wage past what the job reasonably produces, are they better off without a job?

My usual recommendation would be to avail yourself of the various vocational training that is available in your community and get a better job.

A HVAC or plumbing apprentice or journeyman electrician has a sellers market in most areas and makes a decent living.

You shouldn’t expect a living wage working 30 hours a week at a fast food place…

If all you can do is entry level work, then I suppose you qualify for the safety net, presumably you have some significant disability there.

And yes, I prefer we incentivize working for the marginal folks.

Where I work we have a bunch of folks who are doing sheltered workspace type jobs. That’s a good thing.

You show how out of touch you are. The folks I'm talking about can't afford the time and money for vocational training--they're working two jobs, remember?

And frankly, some aren't smart enough for vocational training. Still, no one, in our affluent society, should have to work two jobs to survive.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

There we go with the empty slogans again.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

There we go with the empty slogans again.

Going off the handle, intentionally, as I spent a couple hours talking my best friend, a combat vet, down from suicide and all YOU have to offering is being a jacka$$.. you aren't worth my gd time but I am annoyed

Yeah, dude, play games and say bs.. it is in your character

Idiot.. yeah, I am tired, it's been a sh!t day already, and I am tired of your zero input platitudes.. you don't offer an alternative, just negation.. being a contrarian is the refuge of old men.

Ffs, jackhole, offer a solution and quote me in context..

Standing back and saying " nag nah nah" is pathetic, almost a naki level of stupidity.

Wtf is wrong with what I said? Is it wrong, or do you just disagree? Hiding behind bs is pathetic

Would cutting spending solve the problem? Of course would, but it would be painful. Would soaking the rich do a damn thing? Go watch the Tony Robbins video I posted. If we take EVERYTHING from the rich and corporations we could run ONE year, then nothing left. This is terrible plan.

I am done with the 18oz gloves for elderly and not so elderly idiots. Grow UP, man up, and cowboy up, shesh

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc You need to temper you indignation a bit.

I dealt with militant unions for 11 years. Negotiated with Communist unions. I personally faced at least 6 strikes. I have been mobbed at least 6 times and my life was at threat on more then one occasion. I had a mob of 50 people baying for blood while I had local village politicians in my house threatening to beat me up.

I also earned the respect of the same people mentioned above, once they got to know my values and how I was the main champion of my workers.

Not paying workers a living wage and not providing health care, child care and education is worse than slavery.

Slaves were chattel and assets. The underpaid, under insured workers are just exploited consumables that are discarded. The system is created by the top 1% to provide an unlimited supply of the ultr poor indefinitely. This evil system is being perpetuated globally. The US interferes in other countries in order to perpetuate this system. Remember Apartheid?
You mean the system we wrecked economically in indignation because it was racist and ended up increasing poverty?
Your exploitative mindset is so ingrained that you claim the rights of super profit tax avoidance and deny a simple right to a fair living wage, health care and education.

If investment income should be at lower tax rate, then why is any professional income from investment in education taxed at a higher rate? That is double taxation as well.
Good question. Why do I get to pay the high rate? My income is not significantly based off investments and what I do have gets me nailed with AMT.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
No, the system has some inequities in it that favor SOME of the top 1%. Strangely, most of them are/favor democrats if you listen to the news and look at political contribution lists.

One point re investment income is that you either paid income tax on the original investment or you paid inheritance tax on the same. Yes there are a few folks who found a way around it, but fundamentally its double taxation.

As to fair collective bargaining, until you have had your family threatened by union activists and a dead horse head left on your front doorstep, you are not in a position to lecture me on how one sided the system is. (My grandfather)

For that matter, have you had to work double shifts outside your area of responsibility because of a strike? I have, thus you are not going to convince me how "one sided" the system is.

Sorry, having to pay excessively high rates when over half don't pay at all is not "fair tax rates".

I also doubt that there is any creditable research that shows that the US system is worse than slavery, and in fact with many of my ancestors killed in the civil war fighting for the union, I find your insinuation, well, insulting.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

You have left out a lit of other important factors.

The system is already rigged in favor of the top 1%. So they set the rules of preventing collective bargaining, fair tax rates etc.

Paying substandard wages AND less taxes is the double whammy. Scholars have established that such criminal oligarchy is worse than slavery.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
A fair wage is fundamentally related to the productivity of the job, not some nebulous concept of what will make your life acceptable.

If a job produces too little to pay for itself, then a person isn’t going to hire you to do it.

If you produce enough to make paying you financially possible, then it’s more a negotiation about how much you should keep vs the employer keep. Since the outlawing of slavery, you have the option of leaving. All minimum wage laws do is set a governmentally arbitrary decision as to what the lowest possible point negotiations start at and what business can afford.

Basic economics.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I used to be a fan of a flat tax, but it loads up unfairly on lower incomes paying a higher percentage basis income.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Hmm, you may have gained respect with the people there, you sure have none here.
FWIW poor people do not have to pay for training as CDL truck drivers, HVAC, electricians and so on. There are many grants for it to give people a leg up. They just have to want to do it. I know many that have done so, and others that quit and went back to drawing welfare.

quote:

Originally posted by MtElkHunter:
I have not join in on this thread mostly because it is interesting and damn entertaining to watch each side beat up the other side, however, I can sit on the side and dring coffee and chuckle at all the comments for only so long before I have to add my 2 cents in so here it is.

This whole argument between hard core conservatives (mostly Republicans) and hard core liberals (mostly Democrats) is stupid because like most arguments both sides have some points that are good (true) and bad(false). The reality like most things is squarely in the middle.

Instead of bitching about how unfair taxes are (for or against cap gains) why not try and come up with a alterative solution. With that thought in mind here is MY solution:

Do away with all current forms a taxes. That includes income, property etc. Replace it with a single national sales tax. For my example let’s say 5%. The sales tax would have exceptions for the basic necessities of life like food, utilities, personal household items like soap, toothpaste etc. and housing. Every other thing that is purchased is taxed at 5%. This way you would be taxed on how much you spend on non essential goods. A family making 30-40K per year that spends 90% of their income on the basics would pay very little in taxes. The person who makes 150K per year who spends 50% or more of their money on non essential stuff will pay more and the very rich people to go out and by 5 million dollar boat are going to pay even more. The person who is making good money and is saving it will not pay taxes on the money until they decide they want that new boat. To me this would be the fairest tax because you pay on what you spend and only on what you spend.

Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by MtElkHunter:
I have not join in on this thread mostly because it is interesting and damn entertaining to watch each side beat up the other side, however, I can sit on the side and dring coffee and chuckle at all the comments for only so long before I have to add my 2 cents in so here it is.

This whole argument between hard core conservatives (mostly Republicans) and hard core liberals (mostly Democrats) is stupid because like most arguments both sides have some points that are good (true) and bad(false). The reality like most things is squarely in the middle.

Instead of bitching about how unfair taxes are (for or against cap gains) why not try and come up with a alterative solution. With that thought in mind here is MY solution:

Do away with all current forms a taxes. That includes income, property etc. Replace it with a single national sales tax. For my example let’s say 5%. The sales tax would have exceptions for the basic necessities of life like food, utilities, personal household items like soap, toothpaste etc. and housing. Every other thing that is purchased is taxed at 5%. This way you would be taxed on how much you spend on non essential goods. A family making 30-40K per year that spends 90% of their income on the basics would pay very little in taxes. The person who makes 150K per year who spends 50% or more of their money on non essential stuff will pay more and the very rich people to go out and by 5 million dollar boat are going to pay even more. The person who is making good money and is saving it will not pay taxes on the money until they decide they want that new boat. To me this would be the fairest tax because you pay on what you spend and only on what you spend.

Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Naki,
Dude, you are a wonder. Just to be clear, as English isn't your first language and you know NOTHING about American English, that was not a compliment.. when an American just shuts down and agrees with you, it's not that they agree with you... they are trying to disentangle themselves from talking with a crazy person

You have zero basis for anything requiring experience or judgement, outside, apparently, dealing with pitchforks and torchs outside your home

Hey, "more than 6 times", how many times has that happened in your refuge home? Zero? Less?

Oh wait... let me screech it "LIES... PATHETIC WORM"... did I get the accent right?