quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I'd just say one more thing and then I'm done with this...I'm on record as saying I don't know what the solution is. But, when one side starts starving innocents on the other side to death, it's time to re-evaluate our support for the side implementing that policy.

I'm all for re evaluating support, but not in the middle of a fight.

And ill add that i think I know less of what a solution is than you.

You know what bro? There isn't a solution. I'm old and this shit has been going on my whole life. And, it is going to continue to go on. As many folks have stated on here, all the Israelis are doing right now is creating the next generation of fighters for Hamas or some other terrorist organization. And, all Hamas is doing is forcing the Israelis to double down on their security efforts. It's circular and intractable.

We should try to stay as far away from it as possible.

If you're going to call me bro, (taken as a compliment,) can I call you Dude? ( said with brotherly love,) ?

Scott, I view you as a friend and I want to disagree diplomatically.

I am definitely your friend and will refrain from referring to you Dude until invited.

But I was raised and spent my formative years on coastal California. The Big Lebowski I consider to be a life lesson and the movie, Point Break to be a masters level exercise in language art.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

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Originally posted by Scott King:

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Originally posted by nute:
[QUOTE]

The bottom line is this, neither side has shown the ability to live with the other, there have been wrongs committed by settlers and the IDF going back to day 1. It’s not just mistakes as you seek to portray them. Settlers burning out Palestinian farms, beating and killing Palestinians, poisoning Palestinian farmers wells, the list is endless. It’s not a “ mistake” burning out farms and houses and then building a settlement there. Nothing justifies the wholesale slaughter of people in this instance.

Nute, you argue among other things that you know better than Doc and yet you are as far removed and no more experienced or informed than any other Westerner. You make your decisions and have your preferences based exclusively on the media you decide to believe, your peers opinions that you like and how a particular breakfast settled in your mid section.

Just like most of the rest of us, certainly me.

But Hamas is the long time government in authority over the Palestinians, strike one. Hamas chooses to and the Palestinians choose to let Hamas conduct its war exclusively from behind civilian people and infrastructure, strike two.
Despite staggering losses and defeat, Hamas refuses to retreat, surrender, capitulate, etc, and the Palestinians refuse to give Hamas up and retreat, surrender, capitulate. Strike three.

If Israel retreats from Gaza, Hamas is resurgent. If Israel continues its pursuit, it appears that Hamas is happy and willing to sacrifice its very last child. It looks to me like the Kushner takeover is the best plan.

Scott, the examples I cited of horrendous things perpetrated by Israeli settlers predate the 10/7 when the press still had access to the area. Neither incident has been challenged by Israel and both are well documented. As are many many other incidents of beatings, burnings and destruction of legacy owned Palestinian property.

Settlers building on Palestinian land is also pretty easy to check.

The IDF murdering aid workers then burying the vehicles and bodies having come up with a cock and bull tale about how the aid workers vehicles were behaving ... only to find there was phone footage of what really happened ..is also well documented.

If you want to go a bit further back the various atrocities are also historical fact. If you choose not to believe them that's up to you.

I have an interest in history. I will read around a subject and look at what information is available from both sides. If you don't want to inform yourself and just condemn thousands of innocent people to death (and probably a few guilty ones mixed in with them ) is up to you. I don't claim to be an expert, but just because I don't live there doesn't mean I'm ignorant on the subject.

Read the times of Israel article linked above. Yes the times of Isreal is left leaning, but the increase in support for Hamas since the current conflict started is telling. Ive said it before, maybe you feel differently, but the fact is that Palestinians are not just in Gaza, there are thousands of them in surrounding countries and the West Bank. If you think by exterminating every living soul in Gaza that you won't be motivating all their brothers, cousins, fathers and sons to take revenge, with respect, you are naive.

You beliving i advocate exterminating every living soul is the latest example of your preconceived notions based on your breakfast.

Doc and I are under the impression that Hamas has very broad, very large majority support from the Palestinians. You insist the opposite. From your seat in Britain.

Having survived the Battle of Britain, how popular would you have been with your neighbors for protesting German civilian deaths in the subsequent battles in europe?

Im merely going by your oft repeated previous comments about total war and the west being to soft, I don’t know what other conclusion can be drawn. Lanes comments about bombing the place flat all Palestinians are guilty don’t leave much room for doubt on his views.

Your views, and certainly Lanes on support for Hamas seem to be based on your gut and no other evidence whatsoever, unless you would care to share some. Mine at least are based on published evidence, whether you choose to believe it or not.

No one is going to change anyone else’s mind on this thread so I think this will be my last post here.

quote:

You beliving i advocate exterminating every living soul is the latest example of your preconceived notions based on your breakfast.

Doc and I are under the impression that Hamas has very broad, very large majority support from the Palestinians. You insist the opposite. From your seat in Britain.

Having survived the Battle of Britain, how popular would you have been with your neighbors for protesting German civilian deaths in the subsequent battles in europe?

Having read through this thread, I'm not sure what you believe. The fact you've allied yourself with Ledvm, who does advocate extermination, naturally leads to the impression you agree with him.

The big problem with your analysis above is that modern, first-world nations don't execute people for their speech and thoughts. So why do all Palestinians deserve to die or become refugees? You say you support a Kushner/Trump approach, so I guess that means at least you'd go so far as to kick them down the road for someone else to deal with.

I'm willing to believe a majority of Palestinians used to support Hamas, but I would be surprised if it's still the case. If it is, so what? They have the right to hate the people who have steadily taken their lands for recent European settlers to occupy, don't they?

As to atrocities, both sides have committed them. I've never heard of anything so appalling as mass-raping women and burning children. May those terrorists rot in Hell! I fully supported Israel's effort to capture the terrorists and the attack on Gaza to do so.

But a csmpaign to starve the Palestinians out en masse is also appalling. And a war crime, I think.

So here are the key points:
1) Hamas still holds hostages
2) Hamas is still operating.
3) Palestinian civilians are caught in the middle.
4) Hamas has traditionally used Palestinian civilians as shields.

I support Israel prosecuting the war until there is no Hamas and all hostages are recovered.

I suggest the Arab states should organize camps in Egypt and an open path to them as a means of relief.

Besides that how are “innocent” Palestinians insured food, water, and safety?

If Hamas would capitulate and give up the remaining hostages and control…a case could be made for ending the war and once again trying to let the Palestinians reorganize. But without that I support allowing Israel to do what it deems is in the best interest of Israel.

Here are the REAL KEY POINTS

1. The British government promised a national home for the Jews in Palestine.

2. Under the conditions that the rights of the Palestinians will be respected.

3. Adolf started his Nazi organization to eliminate the Jews.

4. Israel was ILLEGALLY created in Palestine.

5. Ever since, that New Nazi State, known as ZIONISTS, have been systematically killing Palestinians, and taking over their lands and homes.

6. Replacing them with ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS collected from all over the world.

7. Some countries have been turning a blind eye to the atrocities being committed in Palestine.

8. Some countries were puppets for the New Nazis and assisting them in the GENOCIDE.

9. Teflon Tony and Kushner, with orders from NitanHitler and his puppet, THE IRANGE MAGA FUCKWIT, are discussing how to turn Gaza into a Middle East Miami Beach.

10. Trouble is the WHOLE WORLD has gotten to the stage where they can see the genocide being committed in Gaza!

These are THE REAL FACTS

The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when Zionist paramilitaries attacked the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, then part of Mandatory Palestine, killing at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children.[1] The attack was conducted primarily by the Irgun and Lehi, who were supported by the Haganah and Palmach. The massacre was carried out despite the village having agreed to a non-aggression pact. It occurred during the 1947–1948 civil war and was a central component of the Nakba and the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight.[3]

The relevant key fact:

1) Israel is here to stay.

And the Palestinians are not going away or going to give up their homeland....so it continues, the one thing that has changed though is that the world is now seeing the genocide that the Israelis are committing.

I wonder if the people of Israel elect someone new, that there might be some hope for and end to this?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The relevant key fact:

1) Israel is here to stay.

No one is saying otherwise.

Trouble is they do not want the Palestinians to have their own c.

They have in a concentration camp.

THAT is unacceptable.

And I have no problem with them fighting for it!

Where the money to steal Gaza is coming from!

THE ORANGE MAGA TURD’s CRIME FAMILY!

Saeed is on record recognizing Israel’s right to a state, in place.

The problem is the far right in Israel and the U.S. do not want Palestinian to exists.

This is domestically and internationally unacceptable. It is not going to happen. Israel has transformed this war to its security detriment.

The result has been international isolation of Israel, reunification of Iran w the Middle East, isolation of the U.S., and international recognition for Palestine.

China Russia and India are gathering others to coin act NATO!

THE ORANGE MAGA TURD is America’s worst enemy!

Yes they are.

The Far Right Israel never wanted an independent, self-autonomous Palestine.

As long as they control Israel’s government, and Israel chooses to conduct this war as one of removal, I support the YS walking away from Israel.

Turkey is a NATO ally. They have been done 1954.

The U.S. permitting Israel to enable in this war of removal has seen Turkey give support to HAMAS.

The PLO in a couple of treaties, I do not think the US ratified, recognized Isreal’s Right to exists.

Egypt did as well.

There is no long term security without an independent and sovereign Palestine.

This was a good opportunity to purge HAMAS and with assistance Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Qatar, and the Palestinians form a government. That would have isolated Iran.


That would have hampered Iran more than an ineffectual military intervention by Israel and the U.S.

Diplomacy is hard, blowing wholes in the desert while moving your enemies out of isolation is easy. The Texas way.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Yes they are.

The Far Right Israel never wanted an independent, self-autonomous Palestine.

As long as they control Israel’s government, and Israel chooses to conduct this war as one of removal, I support the YS walking away from Israel.

Turkey is a NATO ally. They have been done 1954.

The U.S. permitting Israel to enable in this war of removal has seen Turkey give support to HAMAS.

The PLO in a couple of treaties, I do not think the US ratified, recognized Isreal’s Right to exists.

Egypt did as well.

There is no long term security without an independent and sovereign Palestine.

This was a good opportunity to purge HAMAS and with assistance Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Qatar, and the Palestinians form a government. That would have isolated Iran.


That would have hampered Iran more than an ineffectual military intervention by Israel and the U.S.

Diplomacy is hard, blowing wholes in the desert while moving your enemies out of isolation is easy. The Texas way.

You should brush up on the camp David accords, it may answer some misunderstandings on such. Sure, its not a treaty, but it was held by , and formally witnessed by carter

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I wonder if the people of Israel elect someone new, that there might be some hope for and end to this?

It seems like there is a lot of opposition in Israel to the government's policies in Gaza. There is a WSJ article today reporting that the army is having problems getting reservists to show up when they are called up.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Yes they are.

The Far Right Israel never wanted an independent, self-autonomous Palestine.

As long as they control Israel’s government, and Israel chooses to conduct this war as one of removal, I support the YS walking away from Israel.

Turkey is a NATO ally. They have been done 1954.

The U.S. permitting Israel to enable in this war of removal has seen Turkey give support to HAMAS.

The PLO in a couple of treaties, I do not think the US ratified, recognized Isreal’s Right to exists.

Egypt did as well.

There is no long term security without an independent and sovereign Palestine.

This was a good opportunity to purge HAMAS and with assistance Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Qatar, and the Palestinians form a government. That would have isolated Iran.


That would have hampered Iran more than an ineffectual military intervention by Israel and the U.S.

Diplomacy is hard, blowing wholes in the desert while moving your enemies out of isolation is easy. The Texas way.

You should brush up on the camp David accords, it may answer some misunderstandings on such. Sure, its not a treaty, but it was held by , and formally witnessed by carter

I have. And Clinton mucked it up in 2000, Camp David Summit.

Actually, Carter’s was a peace between Eygpt and Israel. It worked.

President Jimmy Carter, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in September 1978, established a framework for a historic peace treaty concluded between Israel and Egypt in March 1979. President Carter and the U.S. Government played leading roles in creating the opportunity for this agreement to occur. From the start of his administration, Carter and his Secretary of State, Cyrus Vance, pursued intensive negotiations with Arab and Israeli leaders, hoping to reconvene the Geneva Conference, which had been established in December 1973 to seek an end to the Arab-Israeli dispute.



President Carter’s diplomacy was correct. It brought Egyptian recognition of Israel. Egypt stopped typing to blow Israel off the map.

We need more Carter. That is how far down Trump has brought us.

Oh, and Israel and Egypt signed the Camp David Accords. It was not a formal, Article II treaty did the Senate to ratify.

The Camp David Accords became the framework for the 1979 Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty. No, the Senate did not ratify it. Why would it? It was the peace that saw an end that has held to Egypt going to war w Israel.

US policy remains to recognizing a two state solution on 1967 borders.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The relevant key fact:

1) Israel is here to stay.

No one is saying otherwise.

Trouble is they do not want the Palestinians to have their own c.

They have in a concentration camp.

THAT is unacceptable.

And I have no problem with them fighting for it!

Explain what “from the river to the sea means.”

Israel shall not go from the River to the Sea as the only sovereign nation in the Levant

The PA, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, all have recognized Israel’s right to exits.

It is the far right in Israel and the Far Right of the U.S. who refuse to recognize Palestine’s right to a fully sovereign, independent, autonomous Palestine.

The well is poisoned long before October 7 by far right of Israel and far right of the U.S.

Now, western nations have granted international recognition to a Palestine as a state. Again, Turkey a NATO ally in a time where Russia is invading and using military force d to subjugate other nations is supporting HAMAS. Turkey is on the same side of a geopolitical issue as Iran. Saudi Arabia has reengaged Iran diplomatically.

That is the cost of stupidity over hard work. That is the cost of Trump and Netanyahu’s war for election, and not for security.

Israel shall not, cannot destroy, remove the Palestinians. A) It is impossible, B) Violates a slew of international agreements that allow Israel to exist with security, C) Is creating the next two generations of violence to destroy Israel and by extension the U.S., and D) Drives international recognition and support away from the Israel and the U.S. making Iran; Russia, and HAMAS more supported.

A provisional government with the aid of Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Turkey and Egypt recognizing the PA, banning HAMAS, and restricting military/arms to the new government needs to be set up. The UN, that includes the U.S. and the above nations can go about dismantling the tunnel networks and arms.

And yes, East Jerusalem is going to have to be the Capitol.

Will this basic framework hold up? Who knows. It is more difficult than not destroying Iran’s nuclear capability with bombs.

It is the only chance of diminishing Iran and violence in the region long term.

This ain’t doing it.

Right now, ball is in Hamas court and they are the ones who will have to capitulate to resolve this conflict, but they will not and as we see that they will go over their own people’s dead bodies
Hamas is bunch of brutal people who use young men proxies to kill and maim in the name of some freedom fighting that doesn’t exist
They will sell their mothers to buy couple of rocket launchers

When was last time Israel started war?
They simply are always attacked since 1948 and attack only as defensive move

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:

When was last time Israel started war?

June 2025 . . . you been asleep?

They tried to start one in 1956.

They actually nearly started a nuclear war under false pretenses.

President Eisenhower, known for a hands off approach, got personally involved and forced Israel to stand down.

When U.S. the last time the PA, Egypt, or Jordan started a war with Israel? The answer is not since the diplomacy that saw those entities recognize Israel’s right to exist.

Again, Saeed is on record today underscoring Israel has a right to exist. That is more than the leader of the Texas Contingent will grant Palestine.

The War of Removal, the Texas call to genocide would be the end of Israel and the bane of US relations in the Middle East.

We all in the U.S. should question this Netanyahu has maintained power for so long.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/a...-standing-during-war

https://www.newyorker.com/news...tanyahu-really-after

But for being in power Netanyahu would be prosecuted.

https://carnegieendowment.org/...htward-shift?lang=en

Netanyahu and his political power brokers are more like HAMAS than dissimilar.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
They tried to start one in 1956.

They actually nearly started a nuclear war under false pretenses.

President Eisenhower, known for a hands off approach, got personally involved and forced Israel to stand down.

1956 was called the TRIPARTITE AGGRESSION.

When Britain and France used Israel to attack Egypt so they can take over the Suez Canal.

EDisenhower was a proper presidenty, unlike the stupid IDIOTS you seem to put forward non stop!

some should have read the article i linked ... they might have understood what was about and what israel is doing now ..