Working in retail, behind a gun counter, it's very disheartening to see the state of affairs concerning many of the larger gun manufacturers as of late. With as many horror stories about customer service, feeding problems, and all around quality control issues, I can no longer recommend the big two, Remington and Winchester to people and feel confident that they will get a good rifle for the money they shell out for it. Speaking for the $400-$600 category. The rifles I recommend now are #1) Tikka, #2) Weatherby Vangaurd/Howa, #3) Savage, #4) CZ, and #5) Ruger (simply because Rugers are inexpensive and a good platform to work on, such as adding a timney, floating the bbl, etc. and ending up with a shooter at the same price as a fresh out of the factory Remington or Winchester). It's a shame that the bigger name brands can ride on their "history" of producing good firearms, and charging an arm and a leg for a gun that MIGHT shoot well, and customer service that often turns a deaf ear upon complaints. What does everyone else think about this? Any other manufacturers I left out that are gaining a reputation as a good firearm?

[ 08-18-2003, 21:43: Message edited by: the444shooter ]

Personaly , I think that the Savage rifles are a pretty good deal , get a wood stock and work the trigger a little and you'll just about always get a MOA gun and alot of the time a sub MOA.
The Howa/Vanguard are also pretty good guns for the money.
I think that Remington is only afloat due to their old reputataion and all the aftermarket goodies for them.
I have sold 3 Rem 700's to buy Savavges as a base for a custom gun.

444,

It depends on your definition of good. If you're talking accuracy consistently from the manufacturer, I'd give the nod to Savage. Customer service goes to Savage again hands down. The other good platform in that price range in my opinion would be Ruger. Both are good value for the money. One notable newcomer in that price would be the Winchester Super Shadow although at this point it is only available in WSM calibres but I expect that to change in the near future. The downside to Ruger or Winchester along with others is customer service or to be more precise, the lack of it. Expectations have a lot to do with it as well. Very often I've seen people including my friends that simply expect too much for the money they are willing to spend. That is merely an observation, not a criticism. But for the shooter on a budget the three I mentioned are good value for the money. That's my two bits anyway.

Is there a problem with Browning too?
It didn't make either list. . .

The444shooter: Here's what I think about it. I think you are wrong and way off base! I have bought quite a number of new Remingtons recently and not only quality but accuracy are very acceptable to me! Accuracy on a number of my new Remingtons is simply sensational in my opinion! I do not know about Remingtons factory service because I have never had to use them! EVER! In 40+ years of using Remington Rifles and having owned at least one hundred of them and still owning at least 35+ of them right now I have never had a Remington need factory service (break!)! Hmmm.... I wonder how we could have such differing opinions of Big Green! Hmmm.... I can not come up with a plausible answer!
I did once get a registered letter from the Remington folks (late 1991) informing me they had discovered a vendor/supplier of metal for the triggers used on the 700 for a month or two had not provided steel up to the agreed upon specifications. They were making arrangements for me to ship at their expense my Rifle to them and they would replace the trigger with a correctly heat treated metal part. I declined to send that phenomenonally accurate Rifle ANYWHERE in the U.S. mail or UPS or anyhow. It consistently shot the one and only handload I tried for it into groups in and under .375" groups (5 shots 100 yards!). I instead agreed to drive this wonderful Rifle (Remington 700 PSS in 223 Remington) to a Remington authorized dealer 100 miles from me and I had them install a Remington 40X trigger I had. I gave them the trigger in question and that is the extent of the "poor" service I am familiar with first hand in regards to Remington!
Now to my recent purchases of "poor quality" Remington Rifles.
Remington 700 VSS in 17 Remington = splendid accuracy, no flaws - could not be happier with it!
Remington 700 BDLSSDBM in 25/06 = wonderfully accurate, no flaws - could not be happier with it!
Remington 700 VLS in 260 Remington = splendid accuracy, no flaws - could not be happier with it!
Remington 700 Classic in 17 Remington = excellent accuracy, no flaws - could not be happier with it!
Remington 700 Classic in 221 Fireball = excellent accuracy, no flaws - could not be happier with it!
Remington 700 Classic in 223 Remington = excellent accuracy, no flaws could not be happier with it!
Remington 700 VS in 220 Swift = splendid accuracy, no flaws (maybe magazine 1/10th inch short?) - could not be happier with it!
Hmm..... I wonder about our differing experiences!
Let me interject just these two additional examples of next to first hand experiences two of my close friends have had with Remington!
Mark my Hunting partner from the Puget Sound area and I went and bought "the cheapest Remington 700" available! He wanted a truck gun for shooting Varmints and such. We settled on the Remington 700 ADL in 223 with the plastic stock. As I recall I worked a cash deal on this Rifle for $319.00! That Rifle is "splendidly" accurate! It was very easy for my friend to do load devleopment on and maintains its excellent accuracy for over a year now! That Rifle in my opinion shoots WAY better than a $319.00 light barrled Rifle has any reasonable expectation in shooting! And does so even after many shots are fired. I have shot this Rifle in the field and am amazed by it!
Example number 2 - my friend from Yelm, Washington just 2 weeks ago bought a Remington 700 VLS in caliber 22-250! Cost $545.00 - no tax (purchased in Oregon)! He mounted a 4X16 Weaver scope on it and the first load he tried in it shot just under 1/2" at 100 yards! No flaws just grins from the owner!
If you want accuracy and reliability in a modest cost Rifle buy Remington!
And keep an eye on the naysayers!
Yeah lots of people bemoan the quality of recent manufacture Remingtons. I am not included in that group. And some people berate the recent accuracy of Remington 700's I am not in that group either!
Again I restate - I am perplexed trying to rationalize our diametrically opposed opinions and experiences! Maybe I should not fret about others opinions and just stick with products that perform wonderfully for me!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I hear you...

Outside of custom rifles from good craftsmen, I mostly recommend used, older, out-of-production rifles. I feel especially good about pre-1964 Model 70 Winchesters, Belgian-made Browning High Powers, pre-1972 Sakos, DuPont-built Remington 700s, Colt-Sauers, and German Weatherbys.

I also feel good about the current Weatherby Mark Vs, plus push-feed Model 70s built between 1968 and 1981. The later are sleepers: Most of them function well and shoot beautifully with some tuning, and they're real buys on the second-hand market. The current Ruger Magnum and Express are also nice rifles if and when they shoot. Tikkas are nice for the money, but I don't care for the plastic magazine box. That's my only real complaint about that rifle.

I'd like to say that I endorse the current Model 70, but I just can't. After the Carolina move, quality went south as well, I'm afraid. The post-1990/pre-Carolina CRF Model 70s were pretty good, and provided an excellent action for customizing in the hands of the right craftsman. You can always tell the pre-Carolina Model 70 from the current one: The older, better version has a firing pin stop screw in the bolt sleeve, while the current rifle does not.

What really bothers me is how junky most production rifles have become, and what bothers me even worse is that current, younger buyers don't seem to know the difference or care. If it's cheap enough, goes bang when the trigger is pulled, and shoots fair-enough groups, that's all that seems to count on today's market. Too much Walmart mentality if you asked me....

AD

Wow...you must be the luckiest Remington buyer that I have ever heard about!
My own experiences with 700s purchased in the past few years haven't been nearly so pleasing. Poor bedding, even worse accuracy and barrels that foul horribly.
In contrast, three Savage rifles in same calibers
I have worked with in the same time span have all delivered far better accuracy out of the box and fed more reliably as well. Their barrels also do not foul nearly as bad...Go figure.

[ 08-18-2003, 23:54: Message edited by: John S ]

I agree with the others. If you are going to get a new U.S. made rifle, you are more likely to be satisfied with a Savage if you plan to use it as it comes from the factory. I know a couple of people with the M10FP in .308 who could not be happier.

I fired one box of factory ammo through my M70 SS Classic CRF action .300 WSM as it came from the factory. It is one of the few from Connecticut, too, All groups were under 2", but the 1st couple were very close to 2". I bought it just for the action to build a custom rifle on so I never tried to sort out the problems.

A buddy has a an older M70 pushfeed .300 WinMag that does no better than 1.5" with any factory ammo he has tried.

Another buddy just bought a M700 .300 WinMag, the very plain one with the matte blue bolt, that shoots factory load Winchester 180 gr Ballistic Silver Tip into groups just on either side of 1" at 100 yds. It's accuracy is adequate but he bought it to build a .300WSM on, using most of the same brand components as my rifle with the exception of the action being Rem long action.

Of currently mass produced rifles, I would go with CZ's and Zastava Mausers, maybe Dakotas too at the higher end.

Varmint Guy,
Now I will admit, I will go Remington over Winchester any day of the week...but after having a buddy shoot a 300RUM bbl out in less than 500rounds, and talking to a barrelmaker about remington factory barrels being [crap], and hearing complaints about a remington PSS that won't shoot under 2" at 100yds coming from a Policeman AND the fact that Remington customer service deemed 2" acceptable ON A TACTICAL RIFLE THAT NEEDS TO BE A 1 MOA SHOOTER OR BETTER, those kinds of things make me lose a little faith in Big Green. Those are just a handful of stories that I can recall, and I'm sure we could search the boards for more horror stories, but in the interest of time, I will leave it at that. Like I said, I would recommend Remington over Winchester everyday of the week; however, with all the other rifles mentioned, and the greater chances of receiving an accurate rifle (especially with the Tikka's needing to shoot 1" 3shot groups before they leave the factory, and Weatherby Vangaurd's guaranteeing at least 1.5" w/ factory ammo) Those kinds of guarantees give me a little more faith in the manufacturers because they have something to live up to as far as performance goes. If you get a lemon from them, they are required to fix it, otherwise they can get into big legal trouble. The lack of a guarantee with Remington or Winchester seems like a "way out" to me so that they don't have to account for a lemon that they produce. Believe me, I'm absolutely thrilled that you've got Remingtons that shoot that well, and I would never wish a bad rifle on you or anyone for that matter to prove my point, and these are just random thoughts and observations I thought would make a good thread, but I see a lot of smoke with Remington and Winchester both...and where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

Desy
As far as Brownings go...I've heard equally good and bad things about them , and not enough of either to really take a stand either way. But, thanks for bringing them up, I completely forgot about them.

Well fellows, I have to side with VarmintGuy on this one.

I know that NONE of the companies are making guns with the quality control we used to get. BUT, I will have to take my chances on Remington.

I would not have a Weatherby/Howa Vangard on a damned bet. The last Ruger I bought MIGHT shoot a 3 inch group if I held my breath and stood on one foot.

I know this will bring lots of howls of indignation, but if it were not for the money, I might buy a Weatherby Mark V next time around.

The Brownings are not what I want for sure. They are cheap looking and have magazines that are way too short for anything but factory ammo that is seated so deep it is crazy.

The Savages are good shooters from what I read, but I will never own one. They are just too damned ugly!

Anyway, right or wrong, I would still go buy another Remington. The dozen or more in my safe are in need of more company.

R F

If you are going to use them as out of the box hunting rifles, go CZ 550 and forget all the K-Mart junk! My $00.2!

Let me put on my flame retardent underware before I answer this. I cannot with a clear conscience recommend a Savage to the average hunter who shoots a box of factory ammo every other year or so. The reason for this is that I have seen too many problems with them. Most of them had feeding problems. I have a "Tactical" in my gun safe right now (belongs to my brother). It is really accurate but it doesn't feed from the magazine very well. I can fix this but someone who is not very well versed in firearms would have to take it to a gunsmith. I have also seen them stick round nosed bullets in the chamber. This was with a .30-06 and a .270 both using factory ammo. I realize some people's experiences might be different than mine.

I would recommend a Ruger M-77. I have nver had a bad experience with them and they are priced right.

The following seem worth while to me in new rifles, although I really prefer pre 64 m 70s and G & H type mausers.
Dakota $2,000
Ruger deluxe rifle 1,000
Cz 500
There isn't anything else being made that I am aware of that I can recommend.

As far as Customer Service goes I would rate them as follows;

1.] Weatherby
2.] Ruger
3.] Savage
4.] Winchester

I didn't name Sako/Tikka, Howa because I have never had any dealings with them. Remington doesn't make the list because they don't have a customer service department. Just a black hole you send your complaints into but nothing comes out. Lawdog

It is interesting to see how many people care for the guns they shoot. This is as it should be. However it is clear to see from the different opions why there are so many different gun companies.Everone is fitted different and shoots different and shoots what they can afford.

Shoot straight and shoot low sheriff they are riding shetlands.

I'd readily and confidently recommend a Browning to anyone. The fancier models quickly get pricy, but the basic models are excellent.

I've never experienced problems with A-Bolt II magazine. I've been seating bullets to standard COL, no problem at all. And I don't see how the A-Bolts are ugly. The lines are very clean. Of course if you equate modern with ugly...

444shooter,
I own bothe Remington and Browning A bolts. The remingtons are very accurate - did pillar bed and free floated stocks on 788's and synthetic with alumn bed on a 700. They are all great shooters and wouldn't give anything for them.
The browning mediallon out of the box haven't touched and it shoots just as well. The brownings are deffinetly more expensive, better finish, etc., but are extremely accurate.
The Savages i don't own, but everything you read these days indicate they are the rage.
Weatherby has tried to break into the $400-$1000 market but haven't heard too much success. The vangard looks like a good rifle for the money and Wallmart sells them damn cheap. I'd like to know if anyone has had any success with the Vangard rifle.
Ruger has a good rifle for the money. Heard of some accuracy problems with the 77's, but still a good rifle.
The rest i think you already have enough info to decide.

I have a couple of Brownings, and I think they function extremely well. My little 223 Stainless Stalker with BOSS will do 5/8" five-shot groups all day long, and the 60 degree bolt rotation is something you quickly learn to like.

I'm a LOT less pleased with my 30-06 Browning. I ordered a 22" barrel, and kept wondering why my loads were short in the muzzle velocity department, and why I had such intense muzzle blast. Turns out that they count the BOSS as part of the barrel length!! It's really a 20" barrel, which I definitely did not want. According to the FTC, their advertising is false and misleading, but I got absolutely no satisfaction from Browning. Other than being a an obnoxiously loud 308 in 30-06 clothing, it, too, functions flawlessley, and routinely delivers 3/4" five-shot groups....haven't fired it in years, though.

I have to agree with those questioning Winchester's quality as of late. I recently bought two new M70 Classics.
I have sold both as fit and finish was terrible, I bought them sight unseen based on Winchester's past reputation and was absolutely disgusted. Insult to injury was that in one, the good folks in the assembly plant apparently forgot to use release agent when "bedding" the recoil lug (with hot glue apparently) and I had to break the stock to remove the action and scrape/melt the glue from the action prior to restocking. Never again.

I have had nothing but great luck with Savages. They are what they are: A little plain looking, deadly accurate, reliable and very reasonably priced. That you can switch barrels easily and find plenty of aftermarket goodies for them is gravy. I see them all the time new for $325 in standard calibers. Customer service is tops from all I've heard.

Having worked in 2 or 3 gunstores for the last five or so years, I will add my opinion to the melee, and, it is only offered as an opinion.
Winchesters for a while were unbelievably horrible, in terms of accuracy, quality control and customer service. One week, we had one that the safety wouldn't disengage and another that the safety wouldn't engage. A law enforcement type, a former sniper, bought a Super Grade for his own use and it wowuldn't stay within a minute of barn at 100 yards. If you sighted down the outside of the barrels, they were machined as crudely as anything you had ever seen. What was amazing, is that while nearly every Winchester we sold would come back, my buddy across town in another gun store almost NEVER had one come back. Can't understand that at all.
It seems as though Winchester is beginning to come back, because problems seem less frequently now.
Remingtons seem to do fairly well. Most shoot at least okay.
Rugers seem to have the least quality control problems, the bolts won't fall out and the parts all seem to perform their intended task, but accuracy leaves something to be desired. I think it was Bryuce Towsley that was expounding on how well Rugers shot when he raved about the accuracy of one of his, and all he had to do was replace the barrel, trigger and stock.
Savages almost always shoot well, but are not very pleasing to the eye. I have never been a fan of Weatherbys.
I guess if I were buying a rifle primarily for big game hunting, I would buy a Ruger, and if it didn't shoot well, I would treat it with a case of the swaps, and keep doing that until I got one that shot. I like their dependability. If I was buying a varmit rifle, I would either buy one of the new Savages with the Accu trigger or a Remington 700.

In my experience the good old days never were - at least not during the last thirty five years.

We have had 380% inflation since 1970. You could purchase a Model 70 Winchester at that time for a little less than $200. In constant 1970 dollars a Model 70 now cost around $150.

Expectations have changed. The Model 70 of 1960, 1970, or 2003 might shoot 1.5 MOA out of the box, with many shooting about 1" and a very few less than an inch.

Then as now, if you wan't 1/2" MOA you'll have to glass bed it. Probably lap the barrel. If perfect feeding is a requirement then you'll need some work. You might get a minimum chamber, maximum or in between.

In short anyone purchasing a Remchester, inter alia, should not expect a custom rifle. It will be servicable shooting factory ammo. It should blow hell out of the annual Bambi.

I talk to shooters all the time about rifles. Continual complaints about triggers, easily fouled barrels, poor bedding and groups larger than the 1/4 inch the "should" be getting. Usually these guys have a safe full of Remchesters they bought on sale.

When I suggest that for the cost of just one of the rifles they never shoot they could have one customized gun they balk.

Simply cannot expect custom performance from an off the shelf rifle.

Wally

News Flash! A lot of guys can't shoot.

This thread couldn't have started at a better time as I just got CDNN's catalog in the mail today and see they're having a closeout sale on Weatherby MK V's. Was looking at the Stainless/Synthetic in 338WM for $649. Price sounds right but don't have any firsthand experience with Weatherby so your comments so far regarding customer service and satisfaction are most interesting. Keep 'em comin'

JohnK007,

quote:

---

This thread couldn't have started at a better time as I just got CDNN's catalog in the mail today and see they're having a closeout sale on Weatherby MK V's. Was looking at the Stainless/Synthetic in 338WM for $649. Price sounds right but don't have any firsthand experience with Weatherby so your comments so far regarding customer service and satisfaction are most interesting. Keep 'em comin'

---

That sounds like a heck of a deal. I've long admired the Mark V and if I could get a deal like that in Canada I might even spring for one myself. Accuracy is good, reliabilty is excellent, the customer service isn't bad, not on a par with Savage but not many makers are for customer service. I'd grab one of those and never look back. My biggest problem with a deal like that is I'd probably give into temptation and get a .340.

[ 08-19-2003, 05:58: Message edited by: savage49494 ]

Each of the rifle manufacturers has different weaknesses, when comparing them to pre-1970 models. This is due to price competition, and targeting slightly different markets with different priorities. They can't put $ into looks, fit, weight, trigger, feeding, reliability, strength, and accuracy and come out with a $650 dollar rifle. For this, you must pay more, and won't get them all at an "A" level for less than $1000.

Savage is the most intresting example, as they are butt ugly and roughly fitted, but quite accurate. Their triggers were notoriously bad, but the new copy of the Glock system has solved that while keeping the lawyers happy. Thier customer service is average.

CZ has a big advantage in labor costs, which is not completely wiped out by import duties. In addition the exchange rate has been favorable. The CZ USA service is exemplary. I had a problem chambering Mil ammo in a CZ 527 Carbine, and they sent me a new one, with a nice explanation of how it was made to European rather than SAAMI specs and they had fixed the problem. Then I destroyed that one with a bad handload and sent it to them with a confession, asking them to charge me for fixing it. They sent me ANOTHER new rifle, free of charge and even had a sense of humor about it. This led me to purchasing 2 CZ 75 handguns in 9MM and 40 S&W, a double 589 in 458 Win and a 550 Lux in 6.5X55. Their 550 Safari at $850 is my next acquisition.

A fair number of Remingtons and Winchesters do need work to work out the kinks and customer service is problematic. I have, however, had good luck with a new 338 RUM. The biggest profit margins a remington are on ammo, which explains the recent introduction of the Short and Ultra mags. Winchester spun the ammo department off, of course.

Ruger bolt actions have different kinks, and need triggers replaced. Fit and appearance are quite good. Their big revolvers are an outstanding value, and customer service is above average, but their customer service has never coped with the accuracy problems of the mini-14 and 30.

If you jump to the $1000 threshold, you are talking a healthy competition between Sako and Weatherby, with a small price advantage in some entry models going to Sako. It is noteworthy that the Sako accuracy is passed down to the Tikka rifles, but they don't have the famous and nearly unequalled smoothness of the Sako 75. The Baretta ownership should lead to very good customer service.

These companies all have the latest tooling and manufacturing technology, but there is no substitute for good, inexpensive labor. CZ wins here, and is aided by the exchange rate. Functional, low cost accuracy goes to Savage. If you don't mind spending an extra $500, Sako and Weatherby will make sure that the product is worth it.

I would have no problem saying a ruger you will have to do some trigger work the factory one can be redone. I will go one step futher and say top it with a leupold scope too. i dont think you can get a better hunting combo than that.If you want a Rifle to shoot dots hire a good smith to build it.For the price of a Ruger Leupold and trigger work you will have a fine gun that will get the job done. Stop law suits and maybe the factory can make good triggers.

The444shooter: I understand and appreciate all your comments especially coming from your perspective in the business. But I am not clear on one line in your second posting. It was: "with lack of a guarantee from Remington and Winchester".... Are you referring to no guarantee from Remington as to a particular level of accuracy or no guarantee on parts or whatever just a warrantee? I do not know what Remington offers or does not offer in these areas could you expand any or clarify.
Thanks in advance.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The444shooter: I keep forgetting to answer your question directly! Yes I do recommend the Remington Rifles to folks that ask me and they have all been happy as far as I know! I do so with enthusiasm and confidence they will be happy and well served with them.
I do know a fellow here in Dillon, Montana that bought a Remington 700 in 300 Remington Ultra Magnum 2+ years ago. It was not especially accurate initially and he took it to a local fixit guy (not a gunsmith but a gun nut) who bedded it and changed to a one piece scope mount and the boomer now shoots consistently 3/4" - 3 shot groups at 100 yards with factory ammo! It has killed two Bull Elk, a Bear and two Deer in its short life. The owner just loves the accuracy and lethality of this rig. I have seen this Rifle shoot and it is now accurate! There was half a chance the initial problem was with a poor scope mounting system? Who knows now but that is a mighty powerful Rifle to be shooting so very well.
I am saddened to hear about the short barrel life of the friend of yours 300 RUM! I will mention that to my friend who I am guessing has 200 rounds through his!
I have never heard of such a poor shooting 700 PSS! Yikes - I have seen so many of them shoot so well. I worked on a 1,200 person police department for 29 years that had about 25 of those Rifles and they were all tack drivers! Both the 223's and 308's! In addition when I had my FFL I sold about ten of the PSS's to friends and acquaintances - they all shot very well but that was 5+ years ago. That, I assume is before the current era I am referring to and apparently the era you are concerned about also. Hmmm..... I am still perplexed though. I did see an episode of "Mail Call" last night and R. Lee was doing a short bit (recently, it appeared) on military snipers and their Rifles. The snipers were ALL using Remington 700's with Unertl scopes and some custom stocks! They appeared to be in 308 Winchester caliber! And we all know the U.S. Armed Forces can afford to buy anything they want - Remington 700's was what they went with!
More later.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I'm also in the 'where did quality go?' camp, although I've never owned a Pre-64 Mdl 70

My last new rifle purchase was a Mdl 70 stainless in 300WSM.

There is a tooling SCAR on the reciever, and the chamber must have been cut with a badly chipped reamer, as it leaves nasty scratches on the shoulder of brass. I also think the bolt face is not square. The synthetic stock pressed against one side of the barrel, while the other side was free..

Despite all this, it is tremendously accurate.

I removed soem material from the stock, so the barrel is now free floated (might replace the stock anyway). I also adjusted the trigger pull a bit, and other than that, just worked up a couple of loads rather easily.

I have had numerous 5 shot groups with 3 holes touching, and the other 2 very, very close.

It feeds fine, but the bolt is not 'slick.'

I looked at a buddy's Remington not too long ago, and shot it a bit. It was pretty accurate but it really felt like shit compared to my old Remingtons..

Anyways...I've decided that I'm only going to buy custom or I suppose 'semi' custom guns from now on. I'll shop from smaller suppliers, or have a gunsmith work on one of my existing rifles.

I know that some folks like to have alot of guns, and I do too..But truly, I'd rather have about 6 really good rifles- say a .22rf, a .223 or .22-250, a .280 or 7RM, a .300, a .338, and a .416- than a whole garage full of stock Remingtons/Winchesters/Savages etc...

Sako! especially the A series and earlier.

As I read all of these different posts, I can't really think of who does not make a great bolt action gun of all the companies listed.

We hunters are really getting to be a spoiled crowd. We have so much good stuff to choose from. WHO makes the best is almost splitting hairs.

If I buy a gun that does not shoot, it goes back to the factory. If it still does not shoot, and I have free floated the barrel and done a trigger job, then I trade it in, or rebarrel it.
What might not shoot good for me has Minute of Whitetail to some other guy who could be tickled pink with it.

Customer service is important. I personally prefer Winchester Actions, followed by Rugers.
Yeah I may have to tune them a little to make me happier than they did out of the box. I have only had a few guns I was totally disappointed with. Most were bought used. One new one, did not shoot anything well, sent it back to Winchester and they bedded the action and it came back a tack driver.

a Remington 700 in 243 did not shoot well at all. I paid $300.00 for it and it had an awesome wood stock. Nothing worked. I took off the stock and and still nothing worked. Took it to a gun smith, and he said to scrap the barrel. He offered me $275.00 for the action.
I took it and went right down to Walmart and bought me another 700 ADL in 243 with a black synthetic stock for $339.00. It was a great shooter. However, with that Parkerized black finish on the ADLs and that awesome Wood stock from the first one, I assembled an awesome looking rifle that is a real tack driver. Put a fancy recoil pad on it for looks and I am a happy camper.
That is why we are rifle guys on here, not some Walmart el cheapo rifle buyer, and be happy with it. ( Yet even that worked out for me, so who is complainiing?)

My number one pick would be a ruger 77 with a tang safety. For a used gun.

My latest new rifle is a rem 700 375 rum. No problems yet and don't expect any.

When I bought it I was comparing three of them at once.

The one I bought has a very slick, smoooth action light, smooth trigger. Everything about it seemed right.
The recoil pad needs replaced with one more suitable to the caliber. And the bolt knob is someones sick joke because it will rip the hide off the knuckles even with gloves on.

The other two did not have smooth actions and one even seemed to chatter while closing the bolt.
One also had a very heavy trigger.

But that is why I was comparing three of them at once.

Savages are the ugliest rifle I think I have ever seen.

My pre-64 mod 70 isn't all that and I'd probably trade it for a good ruger.

Varmintguy; you are an extremely lucky Remington owner. When I was in the buisness, I sent more than twice as many Remingtons back as all other makes combined. Problems varied, some of which were utterly inexcusable. That's not even to mention the overall poor job of fit and finish. To be sure, this was and is not on every gun. Things like the front scope mount hole on a 40X drilled all the way through shouldn't be. Choke tubes installed so crooked as to make a shotgun totally unuseable, should not happen. A 22/250 Varmint Stainless with a throat so rough that it needed cleaning after 5 shots, that's crazy.

Then there was last fall: I put together slightly over 30 m 700's last year. Of those roughly 20 had the barrels installed so crooked that I had to shim the scope bases to get close to center. The receivers were so out of whack to the barrels that the POI (based on the boresighter) would have been between 40-55" off at 100 yards. When you put optics on guns that are straight, this isn't the case. Things line up without pissing around. Just tighten everything, lightly lap the bottom of the rings and you're done. The boresighter will typically show less than 8" of deviation. The guns I worked with last fall were far from straight. They weren't consistently bad either. Just enough to make you wonder what the boys in Ilion are thinking.

If I thought I needed to purchase from Big Green today, I would pour a stiff Captain and Coke and meditate on things to see if the desire would pass. If it didn't then I'd be sure to see the rifle first hand, and never but never order sight unseen. What would be ideal, would be to get to go through the rifle BEFORE buying. Who will let you do that? Let alone the poor retailer stuck with a bunch of clunkers.

The big two need to do a much better job. We for now, need to vote with our dollars and buy something else.

Gabe

To answer the question, modern bolt rifles in my view are kit guns. No one makes a consistently good and straight rifle from the factory for less than $900. They make a handy and cost effective collection of components that may or may not come together as a good rifle in the hands of a competent gunsmith. The barrel and the installation thereof is the big question mark. Otherwise the action can usually be trued and salvaged and most stocks are adequate after bedding and a recoil pad.

Honestly, I don't even waste my time and effort with a rifle until I've gone through it.

Having said all the above, I still buy M.70's for the reason that after I get done, I have something. Lots of other rifles just can't ever match up, even if they are straight and well executed.

Gabe

I have owned and shot Tikka and Blaser factory rifles. I don't really care for the stock shape (aestheticaly) on the Tikka but the quality and accuracy was top notch. The Blaser K95 I currently have is better in finish than my custom rifles and shoots as well off the bench.

The very best out of the box rifles I ever met are the Sauer 202 and Blaser R93 (nothing left out for customizing and < MOA accuracy). I must admit having a Rem Sendero SS which was a tackdriver from the start, a Ruger 77 MkII VT which was also OK to begin with. My worst experience however came with my Win 70, where I had to change stock and bbl. to make it shoot.