Gentleman,

The thread is beginning to look like a Jihad. Pox on all your houses. Every company that ever produced a rifle for the masses, has made more than one turkey.

Remington although turning out very accurate rifles and actions, has stuck with which, in all probability, is the most dangerous (through benchrest crisp) trigger ever invented. Their grand solution to a bad trigger, was to change the safety, which had no problems?????

Winchester and the pre-64. Clean, functional, and pleasing to the eye, but the gas handling capabilities of the spanish made Destroyer Carbine. Then they created the uiltimate blasphemy, instead of improving the pre-64 they discontinued it.

Fast forward to 1991, and they reintroduce the pre-64 action, with "state of the art" gas handling qualities, but without the pre-64's handwork. So your have a clean, semi-functional, pleasing to the eye action, that does not have the quality, MK I eyeball checks, that are necessary to produce a flawless product. In other words a crapshoot. One great, one bad, one ok.

Of course it possible to have "perfect Winchester Model 70", all it takes is a check to Messrs. Miller and Crumb, in the neighborhood somewhere north of $5,000 if you please, and 90 plus QA ajustments later, you have a "perfect post-64 Model 70!!!

Savage, accurate, but like the girl that can cook and keep house, that mom likes, very homely.

Browning... Here's an interesting company, that has never produced a firearm in it's long life. Their rifles since company inception, have been produced for them. They are an importer and marketeer thats all. Calling the Browning Company (not John) a great arms maker, is like calling Tradewinds and Stoeger great arms makers because they imported Mausers and Sako's.

Even the greatest bolt action sporter maker; who made the closest thing to bolt action perfection; the company that between 1898 and 1946 made less than 127,000 sporter copies of their bolt action nirvana; Mauser Oberndorf; has turned out nothing but turkeys, since 1946.

Who can remember some of their greats hits since then. How about that sparkling piece of Teutonic engineering, the telescopic model 66, run out and buy one of those suckers. These were followed by the 2000, 3000 and 4000 models, that set the world on fire, not. Can anyone remember Mauser's rear locking Model 77??? No one can, as it was and is a turkey. Then came the unforgetable 225's and 226's, model 99's and finally the fantastic straight pull model 96's, that can bind up with the insertion of a ritz cracker crumb. (moral don't eat Ritz's while shooting a new Mauser, it's in their owners manual look it up).

Since this entire thread (my contibution included) has in fact devalued, every firearm, made since 1964, and since I own more than one or two pre-64 Winchesters, pre-1972 Sako's, and pre-1946 Mauser Oberndorf. Can we start the bidding on my Mauser Oberndorf Sporter, in caliber 375 H&H, on an action built in 1927, @ $25,000. Please?

Regards,

Bob

[ 08-20-2003, 20:49: Message edited by: Shadow ]

Orion, it's easy to call names on the internet, especially when you hide behind some phony stage name like you do.

Whatever or whoever you are, you always come off as some green kid with an ax to grind who comes here to learn but doesn't want to be taught, yet contributes nothing in the way of solid experience or information, and as such you're not worth a whole lot of my time. Since you're trying so hard to sell yourself to us as such a bright fellow, you must surely understand that what works best in the construction of aircraft doesn't necessarily work best in the construction of fine firearms. I'm sure you're the darling of your company, but in many ways you're a self-defeated contradiction: You preach quality on one hand, yet steadfastly defend cut-rate, poorly built, plastic & potmetal hunting rifles on the other.

I'll also state this: I don't declare or discuss my professional credentials or business on internet discussion boards, and for obvious reasons. It's in poor taste to do so in any event. Whatever I do, it's allowed me to hunt in well-over a dozen states and a number of foreign countries, and it's allowed me to have owned some ten-score hunting rifles over the last thirty years.

AD

[ 08-20-2003, 18:40: Message edited by: allen day ]

well, I always wanted to be a pimp after I retire!

Kentucky Nimrod: Making such goofy assumptions as you do I would certainly not be calling anyone else goofy! Perhaps yourself but calling names is simply not appropriate!
You have no idea how much I shoot per year, at what and or under what conditions. I simply need to correct your ill informed and misconstrued posting from start to finish.
First off I Hunt year round! Second whenever possible I shoot year round! 2 years ago I went through nearly 4,000 centerfire rounds Varmint Hunting, Big Game Hunting, target shooting, load developing and some fun shooting to boot. That same year I shot exactly 4,000 rounds of rimfire ammo AT Varmints (10 cartons of Federal American Eagle packed 400 to the carton!).
I shoot all my Remington Rifles these days and enjoy their outstanding accuracy and reliability. I also have and shoot varying numbers of the following brands of firearms: Browning, Marlin, Kimber, Sako, Weatherby, Winchester, Ruger, Glock, High Standard, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Savage, Harrington & Richardson and probably several more I have overlooked. You should see my reloading supply bills!
Let me continue with corrections of your posting though for now.
I never said that Remingtons were highly collectable! You may have a significantly enlarged opinion of your self and your "powers" but you do not have enough horsepower to put ANY words in my mouth! Please stop trying! I did say recently purchased Remingtons do hold their value and on many occassions I have sold Remington arms for more than I paid for them! I am glad to be able to correct that misconstruction on your part!
If you want to characterize my enjoyment and satisfaction with Remington arms as "foolish" and "lack of sense" then you are simply showing your immaturity and over developed sense of yourself! And you call me goofy! Sir you are perhaps simply jealous or stuck on age 10!
My "collection" of Remingtons I would describe as a happily owned and enjoyed arsenal of accurate and reliable Rifles that are a joy to use and own!
Criticize someone for that but people will be asking "why in the world would someone on a firearms related web site criticize another poster for owning and enjoying firearms"? What would motivate such a shallow and immature statement? Please answer that for me Kentucky Nimrod I for one would like to know!
You again attempt to put words in my mouth (by insinuating that I enjoy the Remington 710 or the new bolt shroud on the M-700! I did not say or infer any such thing! Your second warning on your inability to put words in my mouth. I won't allow you to do so!
I will continue with my correction in in that regard. I was somewhat taken aback by the "J" lock shroud on the latest M-700's but soon learned to overlook it and appreciate the reason it is there! Amercian money hungry, ambulance chasers is the reason! As far as the 710 is concerned never owned one never shot one. What are you experiences with them or do you just condemn every Remington at every chance? I know and have contracted for work with numerous Riflesmiths including Jim Cloward (high power champion, Camp Perry & National Match winner, Riflesmith extraordinaire), Dan Cowen (5 of his Rifles have graced the covers of Precision Shooting and Rifle Magazine 5 times!) and Darrell Holland to name a few. They have no hesitation whatsoever using Remington actions to build EXTREMELY accurate Rifles on!
I also recently persuaded the optical genious and perfectionist Wally Siebert to build a Rifle for me on a Remington 700 action. That Rifles last four 5 shot groups at 100 yards measured .264", .339", .322" and .262"!
Yeah you said it Remington actions SURE ARE easy to work on and like I told you "a good value"!
Like I alluded to in my previous postings its easy to criticize when one does not know what one is talking about and you sir have proven that. I will allow you to retort (but I will temper my evaluation of your reply with my impression of your immaturity, unexplainable motive and lack of experience) - what comparably priced currently produced Rifle do you endorse with a clear conscience? Because in fact it appears you recently chose Remington! You sir remind me of a young dog chasing its own tail! Senseless and misguided.
Again I ask specifically and with my previous caveats, what currently produced comparably priced Rifle do you endorse over the accurate and reliable Remington!
To continue with the corrections of your jump to erroneous conclusions posting - I have owned and used Remington Rifles since before the Remington 700's were even produced and they came online in 1962! I have most certainly got to know my 100+ Remington Rifles during those 41 years. Declaring I have not is simply jumping to the wrong conclusion! You see Rifles and shooting are my main recreational enjoyment in life! Yeah, you are wrong again in that asumption!
Certainly I have Hunted with a vast majority of those Rifles over the years as you obviously DO NOT KNOW! Over the last 40+ years of Hunting I have Hunted in as many as three western states in one year for Big Game and for Varmints at least 4 different states in one year maybe 5! I have also Hunted Alaska several times and in Canada both for Big Game and Wolves. I begin my Big Game year Hunting spring seasons for Black Bear then Hunt Antelope, Mt. Goat, Black Tailed Deer, Mule Deer, Whitetailed Deer, Elk, and Bear again in the fall season. I finish off the fall/winter season Hunting Cougar! My Varminting is simply to complicated and extensive to relay here just suffice it to say I Hunt Varmints year round, day and night! The Remingtons I have used over the years in the fields and under all conditions have performed flawlessly for me.
Yeah you can cast aspersion on the extraction process of the Remingtons all you want but I have been more that pleased over the decades with empty cases leaving my Remingtons! Yeah I shoot them a lot and am very confident in them!
Your over all condemnation of Remington triggers is again simply erroneous and misguided!
Remington makes excellent safe triggers for their 721's, 722's, XP-100's, 700's, 40X's and the like. I have read extensively the in depth depositions and trial results when our friends the ambulance chasers get a whiff of a possible settlement on the back of some form of misfortune (accident)!
To condemn that fine trigger with a baseless blanket condemnation is again simply wrong and a puzzlement to objective analysis. Please state your specific condemnation of the Remington trigger and provide proof!
None of my Remington triggers have ever failed me or "gone full auto" on me! My poor attempt at humour here has to do with the fact I am laughing at your baseless and ambiguous condemnation of the 700 trigger! Properly maintained, used and adjusted (like my triggers are!) as safe as any in my experience! And please note I said properly USED - that includes being handled safely!
I am not taking your error filled posting personally at all! I find taking it serious simply difficult!
It is often said that when a person has no convincing arguments they will turn to name calling! Please do not admit your stance is baseless and erroneous by resorting to calling ME goofy! Perhaps you should look in a mirror and examine your motives!
Kentucky Nimrod good luck with whichever Rifle you choose but do not demean my enjoyment of my Rifles with immature, foolish and erroneous statements and assumptions. You are making yourself look... well... immature, foolish and error prone!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[ 08-20-2003, 21:38: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

Varmint Guy, thanks for that most excellent explanation of why the Model 70 isn't the end-all be-all of rifles.

IIRC, the Remington 700 was borught to market in 1962.

Varmint Guy,

You are a God!

My humble apologies for daring to tread where no hunter/shooter/whatever has gone before.

You obviously have been there and sold the T-shirts.


You win!

But since you asked: In the $500 and under category I'd have to recommend a Tikka or a CZ. In the $1,000 and over category Dakota, Cooper, HS Precision, to name a few...

Merry Christmas...

Happy Hanakua!

Have a good Kwanza...

[ 08-21-2003, 00:15: Message edited by: Kentucky Nimrod ]

Varmint Guy:
Sorry for the lack of participation in the last two pages of the thread...I wasn't able to get to a computer. Anyways, to answer your question about the guarantee. I was referring to a particular measurement of group size. Like I said, I believe the lack of a group size guarantee is a way out for any manufacturer when they produce a lemon. As far as Remingtons being good rifles, I will agree with you that for the most part they are good shooters. With premium ammo in one and handloads in the other, the two Remington's I owned shot 1/2"-3/4". However; with my latest Remington (BDL .338 RUM) it would not eject shells properly. They would actually fall back in on top of the next round to be loaded. I don't know whether or not it needed a stiffer plunger or what, but I wasn't pleased with that aspect at all. And to hear about people's experiences with Customer Service (or lack thereof) with Remington, just makes me hesitate to really recommend a Remington to somebody and sleep soundly, knowing that they will have flawless performance, and if they don't for some reason, that Remington will take care of them in a TIMELY manner. True, they make a great action for building custom guns on...I will not debate you there. In fact, I will stand strongly with you on that fact. However, the initial question for this thread was about a complete rifle, off the shelf, performance, fit and finish, whether or not it's worth the hard-earned $$$ invested in them ($400-$600 category). Now granted, for the most part, paying $1000 for a rifle usually means that you will have greater quality, like the Weatherby's and Sako's mentioned. But I'm talking about guns in the mid price range. People like most of us on this board realize that we will probably have to tweak a mid price range rifle to get it to shoot. It's just common knowledge among us, however; Most people that come in to gun stores don't plan on spending more money on the rifle to get it bedded, tuned, floated, etc. They just want a rifle that shoots. Now your comment about the 300RUM that you took to a gunnut to be tweaked. That's what I'm getting at...YOU HAD TO HAVE IT TWEAKED AFTER IT WAS PURCHASED. Yes, it's a great shooter now, but it wasn't when it was just out of the box. Which is what Remington really totes about their rifles. So what do you say to a customer that isn't a cheapskate, but thinks that for $800-$900 (gun and scope combo) he should have spent enough money to get a rifle that performs well? I know I personally feel that $800 or $900 is a lot of money to spend on a product, and for that price I think that the product in question should work flawlessly. Am I wrong in thinking that quality should be that good? I just feel that quality has gone down the tubes across the board with the big name brands from the US. and that it's unfair to turn out a product that's subpar, knowing that people will buy it because of the name stamped on it. These are all just thoughts that I have, running through my head when a customer comes in, looking for a gun, possibly for the first time ever, and I don't want him to buy a rifle and be dissatisfied. For example, a young man was in my store just the other day with his grandfather. He had us send a Winchester featherweight 7mm-08 to be repaired because the chamber was so rough, it wouldn't feed properly, and it would mar the cases very badly. We were going to send it back to Winchester, but THEY WANTED TO CHARGE him to fix a rough chamber that was the factory's fault. I'm assuming it is because a warranty card wasn't filled out that they wanted to charge this young man. But warranty card or not, a manufacturer should take immediate action for customer service for a problem if they were at fault. We sent it to our gunsmith instead, who charged half of what Winchester wanted, and now the rifle shoots great. The young man's grandfather just could not understand the lack of customer service on Winchester's part. It saddened me to look this man in the eye and explain to him that customer service and quality control just isn't what it used to be with some manufacturers. It especially angers me that I have to explain that fact because big name gun manufacturers think that they can produce mass quantities of crap and put it on the market with a $600 price tag just because it wears their name. Ok, rant mode off....until next time.

[ 08-21-2003, 01:11: Message edited by: the444shooter ]

What rifle would I recommend in good conscience?
I was faced with this problem last week. I had a brand new shooter leaving on a black bear hunt in Canada this Sat. [Aug. 23.] The rifle they had avialable had been in the family for many years. When we went to the range the ejector was jammed and the rifle would not chamber a round. So here we are, less than 2 weeks till trip departure and a shooter who has never fired a highpower rifle. So it is off to the gunstore. We need a rifle that I know will work "out of the box" with NO PROBLEMS.
So the hunter purchased a 308 Blaser with a Leupold 1.5x5 with the lighted reticle [the new 30mm model]. While the bear hunt will be over bait, with shots at about 30 yards or so, the rifle shoots Federal 165gr. Trophy Bonded Bearclaw's into an inch at 100yards. The scope mounted without any problems, the trigger pull is perfect, and the rifle feeds and ejects. The Blaser takes down and is easy to travel with.
While there are many good rifles on the market, I KNEW that I could depend on a Blaser to WORK and shoot good OUT OF THE BOX.
I have had experience with several Blasers and all have been excellent performers.

Sorry JOHAN but I am just reporting the facts.

Denton,
Seriously enjoyed your post on TQM. No doubt both Remington and Winchester could benefit. Improve the quality on solid designs (both of them) and also improve their own financial perfomance. Management must be stuck in the past (and they seen to get away with it).

Unfortunately, I don't know either CEO, otherwise I provide an intro !

[ 08-21-2003, 01:59: Message edited by: Burropacker ]

the444shooter, don't ever apologize for thinking that way. For most households a $800-900 exenditure is a lot of money. You are the kind of salesman I would probably go with even if you didn't have what I wanted, I would probably get you to order it. In that price range I would expect it to do the basics off the shelf, one of the reasons I buy Savage. Not that I'm telling you to endorse them and I know they aren't for everyone. But for me they do what I buy them for with no major work and very little fuss. I have had to call their customer service from time to time and never have a problem getting through and have even talked to their chief engineer on more than one occasion. The only other manufacturer I've had that experience with is Sierra who are also extremely helpful whether you use their products or not. Now my point being is that that's the kind of service a customer should be able to get but far too often today the opposite is true.As such I can appreciate your problem.

burropacker...

Thanks! Yes, they will get away with it, as long as they are more or less equally afflicted. As soon as one player "gets the vision", quality goes up, customer satisfaction goes up, and cost actually goes down.

everyone....

What rifle can I recommend? Without hesitation, a milsurp Swedish M96. They all shoot lights-out, the workmanship is second to none, and they kill like lightning. Hard to realize that current methods are not producing anything better, and the one I have was built in 1917. Of course, it's a little tricky to mount a scope, and that 29" barrel is an obstacle to some super-picky users..... but on general design and workmanship, they are marvelous. They had a wicked reputation during WWII, and still make a more than adequate big game rifle, though a bit light for elk.

JUST AN IDLE THOUGHT AS NOT TO OFFEND THE REMINGTON/ACCURACY CROWD. IF YOU ARE A CAUSAL SHOOTER BOX OR 2 A YEAR THEN ANY WILL WORK. IF YOU ARE HERE THEN THERE REALLY IS NO DECENT "AFFORDABLE" AMERICAN BOLT GUN.

THE REM,SAV, RUG, WIN, WBY, ETC. ARE OKAY. BUT THEY ALL NEED HELP.

THE REM AND SAV. CAN BE 1/4" GUNS FROM THE BOX. BUT USE IT FOR AWHILE AND YOU CANNOT HONESTLY SAY THESE ARE RELIABLE HUNTING GUNS. I HAVE BEEN IN ON THE KILLING OF MORE MAMMALS THAN RINTERPEST AND HAVE SEEN THEM ALL FAIL AT 1 TIME OR ANOTHER. THE MOST RELIABLE BY FAR HAVE BEEN CZ, WIN, MAUSER. STICK TO A COMMERCIAL MAUSER STILL CHAMBER FOR WHAT IT WAS BUILT IN OR HAVE AN -EXPERT- TUNE THE FEEDING. THE SCOPE WILL STAY PUT ON A WIN OR CZ BETTER THAN THE 98. THE FLOORPLATE WILL FAIL ON THE WIN. AND THE TRIGGER WILL GIVE UP ON THE CZ. AFTER AWHILE. THE BEST FACTORY BARRELS OUT THERE ARE PROBABLY THE WIN. (PRE-N.C. ) THEY TAKE A BIT TO BREAK IN BUT WILL LAST AWHILE.

AS A POINT OF INTEREST I JUST GAVE AWAY A M-70 POST-90 FWT IN .308 THAT HAS 28,000 RDS THROUGH IT. THE BARREL HAS PAST ON FOR SURE BUT IT WILL SHOT CAVIM 7.62 INTO 6" AT 400METERS FROM PRONE WITH A ZF-95 ZEISS. I STILL HAVE A CZ .30'06 THAT IS MY FAVORITE (ITS HEAVY, NO RECOIL) GREAT CROPPING RIFLE AND HAS BEEN FIRED ALMOST 10,000 TIMES.

Very nice post ShadoW

BTW, all guns from the factory are semi-finished. No one makes them "like they used to". I got a new Safari Classic M70 .375. The barrel was not flush with the reciever and it's now one the way to becoming a semi-custom .416 Rem. Same with a .30-06 that I turned into a .300 H&H Mag.

Sure you may get a rifle from any company that will shoot in the same hole. You may also get one that can't hit the paper at 50 yards. But, if you want one that will do the job every time, you have to have it worked one. Or buy a pre-64 M70

Orion 1: I am simply unable to understand your latest posting - so I can not respond to it! Please try again and include the answer to my previously asked question regarding the pre-64 Winchester Model 70!
Thanks in advance
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

This is as good a time as any to tell of my experience with Remington service that has been spinning out since Nov. I sent a 22-250 Varmint Special back to be rebarrelled. I don't know how many 1000's of rounds had been shot thru it but it was a lot. It would still shoot sub MOA but the throat erosion was so bad, I was seating the bullets into less than half of the neck. Anyway, Ilion passed it off to some sort of jobber to do the work. They called me up. They weren't allowed to do a Remington rebarrel but they would be happy to install an after market barrel for a lot of bucks. I said no, so they were going to send it back to Remington. Then the action bacame lost???? Then Remington said they had found it and gave me a new work order number and said they would "expidite" the rifle back to me. (I had sent the rifle in in Nov, it was now Feb) After a goodly wait, I called up for a progress report. Wouldn't you know it, my action had been destroyed!!!! But, they were going to send me a replacement at no charge. Fair enough, I thought. I have 40 years experience in customer service so I know shit does happen. The POS they sent me was so crooked that using weaver bases I did not have enough windage nor elevation in my scope to get on target. Three different scopes. A Weaver V24, a Leuie VII 3x9 and a steel tube Weaver 3x9. I went to Leupold bases and got my windage taken care of and then had to start shimming for my elevation. I finally got on target and the rifle shot like a shotgun. I called John Lotion in Customer Service and complained. He had me send the action back "for evaluation". I got a letter the other day offering to exchange actions with me for "only half price". I don't have the new action as yet so I can't say how it will shoot. What really chapped my ass, however, is in the letter from Remington some snotty techy has observed that "in that rifle, industry stardards are 1.5 inches of accuracy and having to shim to achieve scope alignment was acceptable". That one line is going to generate a super hot letter to Tommy Milner.
I have owned Remington rifles all of my life (so far) and think they are fine rifles. I have never had a extracter fail, a safety fail, a fire on close, a bolt fall off nor any of the other things that folks that have never owned a Remington like to rant about. However, this was my first experience with their "customer service" department. Boy, was I disappointed.

N E 450 #2: Could I trouble you for a price check on the Blaser Rifle? Just the Rifles cost please. I can't seem to find it in my literature and do not remember from the ones I have seen in person.
Thanks in advance
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[ 08-21-2003, 07:45: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

VarmintGuy
The synthetic model is @ $1700, there are various grades of the wood stock models starting @ $2200. Check out Heritage Arms site they have the Blaser prices.

I've used Remington, Ruger, Weatherby, Browning and Marlin bolt actions and find them to all be perfectly acceptable rifles for my usage. I bought my first Win Model 70 this year (after speaking with Allen Day) but have been to busy to shoot it so I don't have an opinion on it other than the action is very smooth.

I guess more than worrying about brand loyalty, I'm more concerned with finding a rifle that is accurate, reliable and safe. That was the reason I decided to give the Win 70 a try. It seems to get the nod on safety and from what I understand, it has the potential to be just as accurate as the Remington. Too bad it didn't have a short bolt-throw like the Weatherby Mark V and Browning A-bolt.

[ 08-21-2003, 08:49: Message edited by: Nebraska ]

The444shooter: I appreciate your concerns and your position! Obviously we are dealing with a person of conscience in your case! Hmmm..... I would still recommend the Remingtons myself and do so frequently but if you still have hesitancy in doing so then by all means do not! Your boss may fire you or the Remington rep may never send you a free calender ever again but follow your convictions as best you can!
I re-read your latest posting and you have not yourself apparently come up with a clean conscience decision on the moderately priced Rifles to recommend! Hmmmm.....!
Oh and by the way my friend owns the 300 RUM that is now the real good shooter. He by the way works at our only real sport shop in this town! He had today off and was painting houses for extra money according to his countermate! I went in to see him today but posed this question to the on duty counterman (who is a Hunting FOOL - he Hunts all the time with Rifle and Bow) - what do you think of the recent Remington 700's - answer: "their good Guns"! Could not coax much more out of him at all! He has been in the retail business at least 6 years I know of. I was hoping for a more enthusiastic or detailed response but it was not to be.
I get lots of off board E-mails and I had to relay to a Sako fan (and I own some Sakos) that I thought they were out of the price range of our current discussion but that if a Hunter could afford them they were good values (they hold value well over the years) but they were not flawless either. I have seen in the past several difficulties with Sakos in the field and at the range! For instance I have seen two Sako Rifles sling swivel studs let go during use - just pull out of the wood! Both were Varmint weight factory Rifles! One fell into lava rock in central Idaho and it will never look the same after that landing! Another Sako I saw first hand two springs ago failed to fire (firng pin would not drop) as a large Black Bear boar was grazing on logging road grass and coming right at us from 90 yards away! I had already harvested my Bear and my Remington 700 Classic in 7mm Rem. Magnum was safely locked in my truck 2 miles away! That Sako was tried repeatedly by recocking and rechambering various bullets all the while the Bear was grazing closer and closer. It was windy and he did not hear us talking and trading ammo and reloading until it was 50 yards from us. It woofed at us and then bolted into a stand of trees! In my wildest dreams I would not have expected that high a quality Rifle to not fire! I walked backwards all the way to my truck watching for that Bear with my Buck knife in one hand and my Leatherman tool in the other! Later that day we were able to WD40 treat and eventually drop the firing pin on that Rifle. Lesson learned. DO NOT LEAVE YOUR RIFLE IN THE TRUCK WHILE BEAR HUNTING! Tag filled or not I will never do that again!
I seldom do not have a clear cut answer for a direct question but this time I will leave it to you! I know what I would do. I have owned more than one business (along with my wife) over 30 years time and dealing respectfully and honestly with customers will pay off in the long run!
Do your best!
I agree on your mid range priced Rifles often need tweaking! Things like trigger adjusting, bedding improvements, new crowns etc etc etc! I have not felt the need to bed a Remington now for 5 years or so. I am on a roll accuracy and stability wise with them!
One more story which I think comes close to being a REAL horror story! My good friend in Kila, Montana had invited a mutual friend of ours to come to Montana and go Hunting Mule Deer near Jordan, Montana (eastern plains of Montana). Our mutual friend was from the Seattle area and he was excited about the upcoming plains Hunt! He was so excited that at the last minute he went and purchased a new Weatherby Mark V in 257 Weatherby Magnum. He mounted a Leupold scope on it and bought 4 boxes of the expensive factory ammo. Unable to get it to the range for sight in or ammo testing he just left a day early for NW Montana and my other friends house that has a range in his field! The next morning they go out to sight the new Weatherby in and low and behold the Rifle would not discharge a shell! Not even one. They fussed and called names and screamed and sprayed lubricant all to no avail. Finally they called me and described the situation. Of course it was a Sunday and no professional assistance available! I asked if the primers were dented at all - no they weren't! To make a long story short I got out my books on Bolt Action Rifles and with the help of a long dial caliper and a small drill bit that fit in the bolts firing pin hole and a scribe - over the phone we figured the Rifle most probably had been assembled with the wrong firing pin in it!!! The firing pin length was listed to the hudredths of an inch in one of my books! This ones was short! It could never have been fired at the factory for testing!! The only other possibility would have been a broken firing pin in an unfired factory shipped Rifle. The owner claimed not to have even dry fired it! A spare Rifle was obtained and the Hunt that started out so bad ended up being a success. The Rifle was repaired later by someone and the smith found no broken point on the gun. The point of the firing pin was of a normal shape! It was just not long enough! Lesson learned!
Hmmm.... - what to recommmend in good conscience - I am going to stick with Remingtons for now myself.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Just a word in defense of the venerable Remingtron Model 700. They can be made into reliable safe and accurate rifles.

I've found that if one simply glass bed and floats the barrel after straightening out the action and installing a custom or winchester takeoff barrel they will shoot.

Replace the follower, magazine box and bottom medal with Model 70's and they will extract. Replace extractor with Model 70 PF extractor for sure extraction.

Add a Model 70 style safety and you've got an adequate rifle.

Wally

Just got off the phone with Joan at Weatherby Customer Service. Yeah I know it's a girl, so you'll have to live with that one. ANyhow, I posed the question regarding the firing pin and the 257 Weatherby VarmingGuy related. Her response was "there is no way, ANY Weatherby would ever leave the factory without being test fired. She went on to state that although the 1.5" guarantee was an important component of the importance of test firing every Weatherby, the central reason was LITIGATION. They want to at least make sure that rifles are not mechanically defective. Maybe it was a sticky firing pin due to too much oil, or an act of god, but that rifle HAD to have fired before it left the factory. Jorge

Wallyw:
Nobody is debating whether or not a Remington can be "MADE" into a good, safe shooter....that's common knowledge. Any midprice gun can be "made" to be tackdriver. I do believe most Remington's are good shooters, which is why I always recommend them over Winchester when the decision comes down to it. But the topic is a gun that's "off the shelf"...which would YOU recommend to a first time buyer, that you feel wouldn't need tuning, bedding, floating, etc. and if it does, whose customer service will take care of you and not turn a deaf ear upon your situation. It's stories like some of the one's we've heard on this thread about Remington's customer service department that makes me hesitate to recommend them. But yes, I do agree they are USUALLY good shooters.

Varmint Guy,
To address your comment about me not having a clean conscience about the ones to recommend. I thought I made myself clear in the first post, but I can see how some of my posts can seem somewhat ambiguous. The one I have the most faith/hope in right now? That would probably be the Tikka. Then it would be in this order: Savage, Howa, Weatherby Vanguard, Ruger, CZ, Remington, and I'd be hard pressed to recommend a Winchester. Now granted these are recommendations I would give, and feel that the person would get a good shooter. Like I said, I think Remingtons are usually good shooters, but I believe the other manufacturer's that I listed have better customer service from stories I've read on this board and others. That's why they appeared before Remington in my list. On top of that, they are a full $100-$200 less than the Remington, so if there is some tweaking to be done, that added cost will put you at about the same cost as an out of the box Remington. That's just me trying to save the customer some money in the event that their gun does need to be tweaked. Yes, I'll agree with you on the fact that Sako's and other larger priced rifles are not always flawless...I've learned that from first hand experience with a Sako TRG-S in .308 Warbird. The TRG-S has a pitiful excuse for a recoil lug, and wouldn't shoot as well as it should've...But, that's all going to change hopefully, since I'm heading to my uncle's in Huntley tonight to get the action glass bedded.
On a side note, I'm pretty excited because I'm in the process of obtaining a Pre-64 (circa 1940) 30-06 that's in pristine condition (safe-sitter) Has an original peep sight on it too! Hopefully I'll have it by tomorrow. Wish me luck!

Jorge, the other possibility is that it wasn't a new rifle. That would be a rare incident but I have seen it happen.

I can't believe all the arguing on this post. Sounds like their is not a decent rifle made on the planet.

Strikes me if the owner is happy with the rifle, then it is a good rifle. Strikes me if he is not, he has the sense to get rid of it.

As far as customer service, I sure wish a lot of other companies in this world had half the level of customer service we enjoy from the firearms industry. Their lousiest customer service is better than most customer service on anything else you buy anymore.

I own 50 plus rifles, and I don't own any that I don't enjoy shooting. If I did, I don't keep them long. However, I weigh their value on what I paid for them. I don't buy a $ 500.00 rifle and expect it to perform like a $1500.00 rifle's expectation.

If I want Mercedes style quality etc, then I had better expect to pay it. I personally don't own any rifles that cost those high prices. They didn't fit my needs or desires at that time.

However after seeing some of the newer Kimber stuff, I can see selling off some of the rifles I have and just replacing it with one Kimber.

I actually am having more fun buying some old used Mausers, and having them rebarreled and order a Stock from Boyds to refinish. Putting them all together, and making something has been a lot of fun.

Bottom line is our enjoyment with them. Savage 49494 describes how he feels about his Savages and why. FOR HIM that is the best gun on the planet. Why argue with his satisfaction, and tell him he does not know what he is talking about? He is the one who shoots it!

If Varmint Guy owns a batch of Remington's and loves them, then that is the best gun for him. I personally have no real affection for a Remington, but who am I to shove my opinion down his throat. If they do the job he wants them too, then what else can he ask of them. This thread is almost like arguing over who makes the best HAMMER?; to me a hammer is a hammer, because all I am going to do is hit things with it. But I am satisfied with it.

Estetically I prefer my Winchester Model 70s, I look a them like owning a Buick ( for us old guys). I follow up with Rugers as I look at them like owning a Chevy ( do a real decent job for the money). These things are designed to be affordable by the average guy who wants Minute of Whitetail at 100 yds, and priced in the Walmart price range ( so they can dump the less accurate ones, the answer to quality control) or the Gunshops that sell the little better ones for a little better price.

The rest of us, may be Connoseurs ( forgive that spelling) arguing over quality of McDonald's food!

I'll never knock what any guy carries in the field if he can shoot it, and it shoots for him.
Bullet hole in the right spot is what it is all about.

[ 08-21-2003, 21:33: Message edited by: seafire ]

Seafire, very well put.

As far as Weatherby or ANY of the rifle makers saying its "impossible" for etc,etc to leave their factory, Jim Carmichael has/had a rifle (he didn't say what brand), NIB from the factory, with a three shot factory target included THAT DOES NOT HAVE A HOLE THRU THE BARREL. When you're dealing with people, especially union people, anything can happen and usually does.

"...while the sun and moon endure, lucks a chance but troubles sure. I'd face it as a wise man would and plan on ill and not on good...."
with apologies to ae houseman.

To stay within the price boundaries, I would go for the SIG SHR970 (I paid $420.00) or the Tikka. There are also Rugers out there for under $500.00. I do like the Sendero from Rem and the
Stealth from Win, but have yet to buy one. The next rifle I will probably buy is a Saurer or Sako. Just my personal preferences of course!

So what you guys are saying is that they all suck?

JLHeard, you are right, at least partially.

Manufacturers of the most expensive and highest quality firearms with glowing reputations occasionally let a POS slip past QC. Likewise, rifles at the other end of the extreme can occasionally be outstanding. I am sure Winchester M70 Classic rifles have failed to extract and eject despite that claw extractor and blade ejector due to poor manufacture tolerances and some Remingtons have never had a problem in this regardless of the inherent weakness of the tiny hook and spring plunger. Fortunately, reliability is easy to define for everyone.

Each shooter's opinion of acceptable accuracy is likely different. Shooters have different expectations. What some consider optimum, others would laugh at. VarmintGuy believes you can pull any Remington M700 off the rack at WalMart and it is ready for tactical use by our military's precision shooters. I buy a rifle considering additional cost to make it shoot into less than .4 moa. To expect this level of accuracy from a rifle straight from the dealer is just not realistic.

[ 08-22-2003, 07:54: Message edited by: RuffHewn ]

JOHAN
No need to rub that salt in your wounds.
The facts are the facts, so far 6 Blaser rifles and 10 rifle bbls [and one 28ga. bbl] that I have shot have performed perfectly. All the triggers have been very good, and all scope mounts have attached to the bbls and zeroed in without, any trouble. Excellent accuracy too.

I can recommend that people buy alot of different guns. I just checked my safe, and I have a few Remingtons, a few Rugers and a couple of Savages. All of these are left-handed and since Winchester was slow to acknowledge that Lefties exist I don't have any of them yet.
All of these guns were purchased over the last 30 years and everyone of them feeds, fires and ejects absolutely without a problem. I've never had to send a gun in to the manufacturer for a defect, or pay a gunsmith to fix something that was built wrong. I've had trigger jobs done on almost all of them, or changed triggers. I've bedded some and not others. All of my big game rifles have a couple of loads that shoot <1 moa with most close to .5" and all of my varmint guns have a couple of loads that shoot < .7 moa. and at least one load <.5".
My advice, find a gun that fits you, that you are comfortable with and shoot it until you know it like the back of your hand. After a while you can decide if you want to change it or not.

[ 08-22-2003, 08:02: Message edited by: Fjold ]

Allen, you're quite right about the USRAC rifles. The parts are manufactured at the Carolina plant then shipped to Connecticut for final assembly. Current M70's, like all factory rifles, are a crap shoot.

As an affordable factory rifle, I stand behind the Ruger M77 MKII... I think of it as an "honest" hunting rifle. It doesn't rest on any history for its credibility. Certanly it's made from casting's that have been cleaned up and its barrel's are generally rough. For all that it's a lot of rifle for the money, will often shoot quite well and incorporates many of the finest features of the M98 not to mention that it's a very simple rifle. Too, I've found Ruger's Customer Service to be the best of those I've dealt with. All it really needs is an aftermarket trigger.

Seafire,

Everyone knows that Estwing makes the best hammers. I have a tool chest full of them and have never had to send one back to the factory for repair. They have never failed me and I NEVER miss any nail I hit when I use an Estwing.
Plumb made a classic hammer for a long time but I have had the heads come off those old wooden handles and the handles can crack, warp, and break.
Hit what you aim at!

I'm a Remington Model 700 fan. I personally have always had great luck with Remington's. At issue here is low cost production rifles. Take care of them and they will take care of you. Savage makes accurate rifles, but I dont like their looks, and yes that is important to me.

Brad, I think the Ruger is an "honest" hunting rifle as well, and maybe the best rifle for the money on today's market of them all. If you get ahold of one that'll shoot, you're got a great rifle, no question of it. I'd like to know who makes the best aftermarket for the MK II, though.

Today's Model 70 is a crapshoot alright, which is a shame. Unless you get lucky and latch on to a M-70 that works as well as it sounds like your .30-06 does, you might be in trouble with these rifles. Mostly, they're a doner rifle for the action in my book, and even then you have to be careful.

Wayne, I'm glad your Echols rifle worked out as it has for you. The guns D'Arcy has built for me are the very best rifles I've ever owned, period, and I don't hunt with anything else anymore. I'd rather own one of his rifles that I'll really use than a dozen stock factory rifles that'll mostly sit in the safe.

AD

I read thru almost every word on this topic and when I finish with this post I will do my best to forget them. It seems that forums are a good place to complain about things and I am sure I have done it as well.

Almost every gun that I have owned has been enjoyable. Some have required work to upgrade them and others have not. A few however have been so cheap looking or of such poor design that I have let them go. Others however might think that these are real fun guns to have.

To answer the question directly I would suggest a M 70 Classic for the reason that one post above explained that "when you finish you have something" With all due respect to other very experianced riflemen here however I don't think you need to spend a lot of money to "finish" a M 70.