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One of Us |
This is one of the greatest threads I've ever read and I'm going to add my $.02 First of all I must say that I've bought no new guns in the last five years....and things can change. However I've bought over 100 firearms in my lifetime and I think I have a track record on quality of companys. I rate very highly: Marlin, SKB, Browning, Smith & Wesson, Ruger single action hand guns, Mauser imports, Mossberg, Remington 700, Winchester 70, and Taurus. I will never again buy the following: Ruger long guns, Savage anything, Weatherby anything, and EMF. I'm absolutely amazed at the disparity in opinion of quality in some of our finest firearms. It tells me that there's a diverse range of quality expectations. All I ever hear about Savage is the great groups they shoot. I agree but they must also feed, extract, the trigger must be crisp and the safety must work. They must also eject.....sorry but all the ones I've had don't. I have several Remington 700 rifles and love them. I'm amazed at those that are throwing stones at Remington!! My post 64 model 70 collection includes every caliber from .224 to .375 and they're all fine guns. They all function fine except the .223 has some feeding problems. I surely don't want the job of QA manager in any firearms plant. | |||
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quote:I am not sure what you mean by Carolina Winchester. Winchester is still made in Connecticut, they did move the factory down the road but they are still there. All the marketing and R&D is done in Utah, but the manufacturing is done by the same people that have always done it. The laws of nature, or human nature, whatever you want to call it means some bad guns will get out. I have had a Colt Gold Cup with the breech face machined wrong, A Colt 22 with a terrible rough barrel, a Remington 700 with a chattered barrel, a Remington 541T HB with the scope mount holes drilled in the wrong spot......it happens. I do not have ill feelings towards Colt or Remington and to sit here and say they are all crap becuase of a few guns that were not good is bunk. They don't make bad guns on purpose, it hurts them. They may have problem times but they will get better and they will take care of the customer (though maybe not as well as the next guy.) My two cents worth is quite your moaning and realize that these guns are dang cheap, ask any machinist to build you one from scratch and they will tell you you are gone in the head if you expect it for less than $1500. Aaron in Utah [ 08-19-2003, 18:24: Message edited by: AaroninUtah ] | |||
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Gentlemen, I have a 700LSS 30/06, that I purchased recently and had it rebarreled(SHILEN) to 22/250ACKLEY. This rifle shoots in the low 2's. The fit and finish of this rifle is very nice. I own several other Remingtons(all shooters) but they are a bit older. Remington factory barrels could have a smoother bore, but we're talking about a production gun here. I hear complaints about Remington triggers,but I have yet to see one that was unexceptable after a little fine tuning. The 300 RUM that shot out at 500 rounds, well excuse me, but any cartridge that burns that volume of powder isn't going to last very long regardless who made the barrel. My son has an early 77 Ruger and it's a keeper, but i just can't warm up to a Savage,sorry boys, but that is one of the most unappealing rifles ever made. They may shoot, but thats where it ends. I guess what it all boils down to is, buy what ever moves your needle. I never had any experience with Remingtons customer service, wasn't necessary. Stepchild | |||
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As was mentioned, the Marines use a Remington made RECEIVER...specifically a 40X. What was not mentioned is that the rifle is custom assembled at Quantico by Marine Armorers using Obermeyer hand cut barrels, McMillan stocks, and I believe Jewel triggers... That ain't your corner gunstore greenbox deer rifle... My personal experience with customer service among the major manufacturers is as follows: Remington: 1 shotgun and two rifles sent back for warranty service. The 870 needed a new ejector installed (riveted to the inside of the receiver) A model 7 which shot so poorly even after lapping at the factory that Remington replaced the barrel.. And a model 700 with scope holes improperly aligned. In each instance Remington made it right...but in each instance it took 4 months or slightly more. Ruger: Two pistols sent back for assundry problems. Both returned withing 2 1/2 weeks completely repaired and working. They also paid for postage both ways. All my Ruger rifles have been very good except for an old 220 Swift that I finally got to shoot well but it took some major tweeking of gun and loads and even then it was finicky. Winchester: One rifle sent back for feeding problems. They replaced the receiver and paid for postage both ways. Turnaround time was less than two weeks. Rifle now shoots exceptionally well...M70 FWT classic in 300 WSM. Sako: One rifle sent back for horrible accuarcy problems related to warped stock. They lost the rifle and it took me six months and a letter from an attorney to get them to ship me a replacement. No kidding... Ever try and call Finland? I did... I still own two older Sakos but can't justify $1100 for their current line. | |||
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We've been here before, but let's try it again... If you were looking for a lightweight, reliable, durable, accurate eastern whitetail rifle, and DO NOT want a gunsmith bill, what would you buy?: Mannlicher L .243, scoped, exc., $1300 Rem Custom Shop MS .243, as new, $800 Swiss Sig SHR 970, new, .270/280, $430 Steyr Forester, new, .260/270, 20"/23.6" bbl, $550 | |||
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JohnK007, I've owned just a couple Weatherby's, a Mark V stainless and an Accumark, both in .300wthby. Everything was excellent on both rifles, both were smooth as silk and very well put together. Both were sub-MOA rifles. It's amazing how 2 good experiences with Weatherby can build loyalty. I've sold both for a HS Precision, but you can bet it is chambered in .300Wthby. The few Remingtons that I have owned have needed a descent amount of work to get any reliable accuracy from. At the point I have to invest $3-400 at the smith we are talking about a $1000 gun and I'd throw in the extra $200 and opt for the accumark every day. I've also seen quite a few Remingtons where the owners bragged consistently that they were putting one shot right on the other, then you show up at the range and it is more like 2" groups. I imagine some of the posters perceptions of their Remington is the same that I've experienced. I've only had experience with one browning stainless in .375H&H. It was a 2" gun that was absolutely brutal to shoot. For under 1k, I'd go with a Ruger or Weatherby every time. My Ruger M77 Magnum in .416 shoots MOA all day long without any fierce recoil. | |||
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Kentucky Nimrod, Not to start an arguement, but Frank De Haas says in his "Bolt Action Rifles" book that the Marines use a 700 Varmint with a parkerized finish instead of bluing. The book is pretty old and maybe they have changed. At any rate, i'm glad to see they they still have good taste in rifles, either one being an excellent choice. Stepchild | |||
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Pardon the rant, but... I work in quality. I earn my living showing companies how to create better quality, and lower costs (six sigma). Yes, you can do both those things simultaneously, and it is not all that difficult. In the US, you can divide companies into two groups, those who are on some sort of continuous improvement program, such as six sigma, and those who are not. It is very easy to tell them apart. You just look at prices in the industry. If the industry is raising prices a little every year, they are not on an improvement program. If they are lowering prices every year, they are. The rule is not 100% bulletproof, but it is a very quick and fairly accurate indicator. If you supply automotive parts to one of the US auto manufacturers, part of your contract will be how much you are going to lower prices every year, and that you're going to ship fewer than 50 defective items per million. If you ship more defective items than that, you will pay for an inspector at the customer's site to ensure that the parts are good. Under that intense pressure, there are companies that thrive and prosper, and many who can't stand the heat, and get out of the kitchen. Clearly, the firearms industry raises prices every year, and I don't see much evidence of quality approaching 50 DPPM, much less the 3.4 DPPM we strive for in six sigma. It's evident to me that any firearms company that performed to that level would quickly dominate the rest. So who's going to introduce me to the CEO of a firearms company, so I can show them how to fix their processes, so you can all get what you actually paid for, first time, every time, all the time? ....end of rant. Thank you all for listening. I feel much better now. | |||
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In no particular order: Howa 1500, Tikka 595/695/T3, CZ 550. | |||
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Most people who think USRAC moved its factory from New Haven to South Carolina are confusing it with the new FN Manufacturing Inc plant in SC. Both USRAC and FNMI are part of the FN Herstal SA conglomerate. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Aaron, maybe I've been fed misinformation, but it's been widely understood that USRAC has been building at least Model 70 actions at a new plant in SC, and that quality has gone downhill ever since that move was made. This deterioration of quality is plain enough to see without anyone's assitance, and seems to coincide with the introduction of the Sporter LT and LT-style Supergrade. Heck, USRAC even tried to cheapen the Model 70 a few years before that by introducing plastic magazine followers. Evidently I wasn't the only Model 70 fan to write letters, call, and otherwise complain about that stunt, since the plastic follower quietly went away. USRAC needs to improve the quality of the current Model 70, no question about it, and regardless of where the Model 70 is currently produced. They need to provide the Model 70 with a real spring-steel extractor, return to the firing pin stop screw as per original specs, and keep tolerances precise and consistent. AD | ||
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Personaly , I think that the Savage rifles are a pretty good deal , get a wood stock and work the trigger a little and you'll just about always get a MOA gun and alot of the time a sub MOA. YUP!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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VarmintGuy, KentuckyNimrod, and all, The Remington rifles assembled by the Precision Weapon Shop in Quantico have very little in common with the Remingtons in the rack at WalMart. The PWS blueprints the M700 action, recuts the bolt for a Sako extractor, squares the boltface, laps the lugs, installs barrels from Mike Rock or HS Precision or Obermeyer, and beds the action into a McMillan stock, currently the A-5. You could not buy the scope base and rings on those rifles for the price of the M700 at WalMart. | |||
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quote:I don't see how a plastic magazine follower detracts from the function and quality of a rifle. CZ 550s have them, and most don't care. They are still excellent rifles. Hey Allen, my company builds airplanes out of plastic (carbon fiber/epoxy resin). Should we stop because it offends traditional sensibilities? You know, I've had plenty of opportunity to look over pre 64 Model 70s. There's nothing exceptional there, except in the minds of those wrapped up in nostalgia. | |||
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uh oh, orion, stand by to get flamed. You know God didn't really rest on the 7th day. He made the pre-64 model 70.............or so they would have you think.. | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
quote:He worked har during the entire week to create the mauser 98's, double rifles, kiplaufs and on the Sunday he invented the win pre 64 I would be willing to pay twice the price for a win if it been made properly ( staright, tight, aligned, feeding) and had no need for fixer up's. Plastic migh be able to resist the wear etc., But who of you would like to get a classic rifle with some silly plastic part? I wonder when the London makers will adopt this trend ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} / JOHAN | ||
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beemanbeme, quote:On the seventh day he made Savage, couldn't top himself and stopped right there. | |||
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Ruffhewn: My favorite Riflesmith these days (the one I use the most) is a retired Marine Corp sniper turned Marine Corp armorer, is now in private practice so to speak. Dan Cowen is his name and he works out of his shop in Renton, Washington. He and many many many others have made it known to me that nowadays the favorite action to build the moderate calibered sniper Rifles on is the Remington - and that was my point - the Rifle of choice to "build on" is the Remington. NOT, the SavaChesterUgerTikkaSakoWetherbs!!! You must build on a solid, reliable, inherently accurate action to begin with or your results will suffer! So my pointing out that those handsome accurate dependable sniper Rifles are being built on Remington actions was worthy of note and reiteration. So I did. And again I will say (as you allude to) money is no object to the U.S. Armed Forces when obtaining "whats best"! They could buy what ever they deem best! They do as I do - they buy Remington! Hmmm......! I say hmmm.....! I have heard all the stories of crookedness and freakish chambers and tilted muzzles and poor quality and horrifying multiple misfires and M-700's going full auto and on and on and on and on! BUT gentle posters and lurkers - I have yet to see one "horror story" Remington IN THE FLESH! AND I get around! My whole life these retired days is rotating around Gunshops, Gunshows, Big Game Hunting, Varmint Hunting, Varmint Jamborees, NRA Conventions, Pawnshops, Gunsmith shops etc etc etc! Minor troubles with Remingtons I see, yes - but again rarely! Why does my arsenal of Remington arms shoot so consistently accurately, and are so consistently easy to do load development for and are so reliable? Someone says I am lucky! Hmmmm....! No I think I use care in barrel breakin, scope mounting and lapping, using my Remington Rifles and I keep them clean and properly lubricated! I simply refuse to accept that I am lucky and everyone else is getting the normal bent barreled Remingtons! I even had an anti-Remingtonite try and convince me once that Remington sends their "seconds" to Wal-Mart to be sold to unsophisticated shooters! I consider that an "urban myth" at best! A jealous, contrary to be contrary opinion, or a lie at worst! I will expound a bit on the Remingtons people I know well and of whom I trust their judgement. People who have owned Remington bolt action Rifles, ones that have owned recently and/or in the past few years! I would guess I could include in this group about 100 different Rifles owned by 40+ friends! No problems - no horror stories - no bursts of full auto fire, no 13" groups, no bluing flaking off, no wood oozing salt! No problems - NONE ZIP ZILCH ZERO NADA! No, I am not the only lucky one! ALL my close friends and Hunting and shooting buddies are also power ball lotto lucky! For the person seeking a moderate to modest priced Rifle wanting accuracy, reliability and an arm that holds its value (often increasing in value!) then I always and heartily recommend Remington! I have owned and USED quite a number of Remington bolt actions Rifles (and Pistols) that I have sold for more than I paid for them! Try and do that with your SavaChesterUgerTikkaSakoWetherbs! Long live (survive?) Remington! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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Orion1: I just noticed your "remarks" (remark?) regarding the pre-64 Model 70 Rifles! May I resectfully inquire of you - what similarly priced Rifle from that era you consider to be superior to pre-64 Model 70? And in what ways? Be very careful with your answer. As I AM a fan, dedicated user, trader, collector and student of that legendary arm! And I will not hesitate to take your answer apart word by word. I am eagerly awaiting your observations on a superior (better) Rifle! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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quote:Did the FTC actually make a ruling or statement about this, or are you just assuming it is false advertising? I suspect the latter. Browning has always stated in their literature that the barrel length includes the BOSS. What actually IS false, is Browning's claim that muzzle velocity is not affected by including the BOSS as part of the barrel OAL. This is patently false, as your own testing proved. Add the crappy bolt construction, and the refusal of the factory to rebarrel your rifle in anything but the original OEM chambering (eg. they won't rebarrel your .30-06 to a .270), and you have a pretty crappy company. Their product service completely stinks - - you will wait forever for your gun, boots, whatever. Their high-grade stocks regularly crack. I waited 9 months for them to repair and return a Citori Grade VI stock that cracked at the wrist - - twice (once a 20ga and the other time a 12 ga). Another time I bought a pair of their over-priced boots (which they get from a mainline manufacturer and have them private-branded). The boot seperated from the midsole in only 3 months of irregular use. I returned them in July. I received my replacements in February, well AFTER I needed them for hunting season. I'd never buy another Browning product. They trade on the reputation of John M. Browning, but he and his reputation are long gone. The new Browning is French-owned, Japanese-run and espouse a "Have-it-our-way" mentality. They should change their slogan to "The Best There Was". [ 08-20-2003, 04:51: Message edited by: KuduKing ] | |||
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| <allen day> |
Orion, I really don't think there's a whole lot that I can do to help you. You either understand quality or you don't. It's pretty obvious to me that you don't. AD | ||
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Kudu, because of my past work, I've had to become very familiar with the FTC rules on advertising. They are HEAVILIY biased in favor of the consumer. The basic assumption of the rules is that consumers are complete nitwits, and the advertiser has to make statements that are not only true, but are almost incapable of being misinterpreted. If an advertiser omits material information, that would likely have changed the consumer's selection, that's false advertising. I even downloaded the rules from the FTC web site, highlighted the portions that they violated, including failing to state that they include the BOSS in the barrel length, and the just plain ridiculous Browning statement that you highlighted, and enclosed them in my correspondence. At the time that I bought my '06, there was absolutely NOTHING on their web site that said the BOSS was included in the barrel length, nor anything in any of the written materials they supplied. I checked very, very, very carefully, because they are local, and I was seriously preparing to sue them. Maybe I should have? After I raised a fuss, I notice that they did start mentioning this fact on their web page. For a while it was there, then it was gone. It may be back again. Anyway, you're right: They have the John Browning name, and they do some things right, but it's not the Great American Firearm Company anymore. The sad thing is, I clean up messes worse than that on a constant basis... got a division of a company in El Paso that we're probably going to clean up next. It's really grating to see an icon like Browning in that kind of condition, and to know how to fix it, and to be completely powerless to do anything. | |||
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quote:In my line of work, high quality is what keeps people alive at 550 mph and 45,000 feet. Whatever the hell do YOU do where quality has such importance? I bet you don't even have a clue about what denton was talking about in his post about sigma levels and dpms. Chumps like you give life to ol' P.T. Barnum's maxim. | |||
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quote:I see you don't buy into the bullshit either. | |||
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quote:Define superior. | |||
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| Moderator |
Orion- I'll give you one thing, you sure ain't bashful about telling everyone how smart and important you are, or think you are. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Calling someone a chump with the hunting and gun savy credentials that AD has tells me a lot about what you know regarding guns and the attributes that make them useful tools for the chase. | |||
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I might as well get in on this. The CZ is mucho bang for the buck in my books. I think most of the rifles out there to day are pretty good, some are better than other. I pretty much have one or more of the american made rifles. I'm currently on a CZ kick, but the Wby's rate pretty high on my list, Mk V or Vangard either one. A new commerical mauser is hard to beat also. The Savages are accurate, but I had one with a chunk of rifleing missing from the barrell, had to send it back, another one broke the pin that held the bolt face on.......but one thing about it Savage has good customer service. I'd have to pass on the Savages, but they are accurate. The guys at one of the larger gun shops here in Houston complain about the winchesters, but brag on the Remmingtons and say they are the most accurate out of the box. Remmingtons inside phone sales sucks, I gave up on them sending me an extractor......had to buy one locally. I think they are all pretty good for the most part......a lot of it has to do with what ya do with them. A cleaning rod does wonders for barrell life with a 300 RUM. | |||
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quote:VarmintGuy, you have oversimplified and misinterpreted the reason that the Remington action is used to build the M40 series Marine Sniper Rifles. The people who use them wanted to continue with the old M70 Winchester that was used through much of the Vietnam conflict but with the Corps wishing to standardize and Winchester not able to deliver the quantity and having a higher price per unit, Remington got the contract. Price does matter to the armed forces. The factory Remington action is generally no straighter than any other factory rifle. They all can be corrected, but it is easier to work with Remington. The uneven rear of the bolt lugs in Winchesters is much more difficult to remachine. I concede that Remington's factory barrels are better than Winchester or Ruger but in building the precision tactical rifles the factory barrel is no where near adequate. Remington's extractor is also deemed sub par therefore the change to Sako extractors, still not as strong as the Win pre '64 claw but a huge improvement over the Remingon very narrow hook. This is not an attempt to disparage Remington and should not be an afront to Remington fans. I am merely clearing up some misconceptions. I like Remingtons, too. If it were not for the claw extractor on the new Winchester Classic pre '64 type action, my rifle would have been built on a Remington action. | |||
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I have had this disscusion before with Orion 1. He simply doesnt mind plastic/potmetal/aluminum/rubber guns. It is no secret to me *why* manufactures are using plastic for parts on their guns. | |||
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Orion1: You are the one with the "opinion" I am about to discredit, so please define "nothing special" in regards to the Winchester pre-64 Model 70's! And please: I again respectfully ask you to tell everyone the Rifle from that era (or any other era!) and that price range that you feel is superior (definition to follow) to the pre-64 Model 70! Definition - SUPERIOR: as per Websters Dictionary (Thomas Nelson Publishers - 1986) adjective, #1 - better. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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RuffHewn: Let me clear up a couple of your misimpressions. First the Remington 700 came out in 1962 and during its short head to head competition with the pre-64 Model 70 style Winchester the Remington 700 was 95 cents more expensive than the Model 70 (1963 M.S.R.P. = $139.00 versus $139.95)! So keep that fact in mind: the Remington 700 was never appreciably more expensive than the pre-64 Model 70, while BOTH were being produced. Again I relay to you the U.S. Armed Services prefers the Remington over any other available Rifle to base their sniper Rifle on. Whether they correct the Rifle in any manner or not they still USE and CHOOSE the Remington. You of course are not saying any other Rifle would not need to be "corrected" or improved in various manners seen fit by those armorers - and I am not saying that either. I am saying the Remington was chosen for this important task! Chosen over any and ALL other available Rifles! Quite a recommendation in my opinion! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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quote:It's not Sunday you have to worry about it's late Friday afternoon! At this point the Allmighty started the R93 Interested to see you've changed your tune on K95s - road to Damascus experience? | |||
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Ruffhewn: If my Remingtons are so crooked then why are they so accurate? Please give me your opinions on this as I respectfully want to know! If you want examples of my accuracy please inquire. Perhaps the Remingtons are as crooked, or more crooked than other factory Rifles! But the Remingtons I am familiar with (and I am familiar with a whole bunch of them!) are all accurate and remain so! Perhaps they are crooked and STRONG? The inherent strength then overshadowing the crookedness? Strong but crooked and all the while still supplying me with very acceptable reliability and accuracy! Hmmm.... I want accuracy and can obviously live with crookedness, if, my Rifles are accurate and remain so! Here on the Big Game forum I think it is appropriate to relay that I am planning for now on Hunting one specie of Big Game this fall with a recently purchased Remington 700 VLS Rifle in caliber 260 Remington. The Rifle recently provided me with a very pleasing 5 shot group at 100 yards of .451"! This using an appropriate Hunting style bullet for the Game intended! Give me more of that "crookedness" ANYTIME! Thank you! By the way this is a factory stock Rifle except I did adjust the trigger. This Rifle is so new to me I have not fired it much other than load development and that final sight in group I cited above. That accuracy grouping does not appear to be unusual in that Rifle in my limited shooting of it so far. Hmmm.....! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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Nope Kuduking, Orion1 is right. The French GIAT coped out years ago and the present owner is the Belgian Walloon government. As the (privileged) owner of several older and genuine FN handmade guns (B25, CCS 25), I confirm that nowadays Browning-Winchester-Miroku products are not worthy of comparison. | |||
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you know what? I have not been tickled w/ my Remington either. I mean it was fine the first few years of hunting. Now that I have used it there are a few things I dont like. I hate their action! THe bolt is stiff and if you want to chamber a round from the magazine it is very difficult and sometimes blunts my spire points! The safety is ok for me, trigger is so so, however i shot my Uncles gun which has a custom trigger set at like 3 some odd pounds that i liked. And I hate the barrel on my rifle. it is short but thats due to my caliber (.308 win) and it isnt accurate for a inherently accurate cartridge. I mean for hunting purposes its sufficent but not exactly waht i want. What about Kimbers model84 line of rifles? | |||
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Orion 1: My profession entails flying at speeds and altitudes close to what you profess. Having said that, I see NO correlation between your line of work and rifles. If you can't see the obvious qualities in a Pre-64 Model 70, then your credibility at least as far as firearms is concerned, is suspect. Regarding Remingtons, I have no doubt they are accurate rifles, but so are Winchesters, except that they don't have glued on bolt handles, flimsy extractors and unsafe safeties. I've only bought one 700 in my life, it was a "Classic" model in 35 Wheelen back in 1987 I think. The action was defective in that the bolt lug recesses had been overcut, hence the action hung up when you opened the bolt all the way. That was enough for me. If you like Remingtons, that's fine and I'm sure you are very happy with them, but don't try to convince me they are better than everything else out there. jorge | |||
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Varmint Guy, I don't know how much you shoot em' but you seem to buy and trade em a bunch. By your own admission you currently own 35 Remington Rifles and have owned over 100??? Why? It just kind of looks foolish and maybe shows a lack of more money than sense. They ain't collectable in any sense of the word...and I can think of fifty better places to invest money. If that's just what you like to do there's nothing wrong with it. But when I find a gun I like and it shoots well I keep it. If the Remington's you have bought and shot over the years were so good why did you get rid of them? Don't get me wrong. I think a used Remington M700 action made 10-20 years ago is a fabulous base for a custom rifle. In fact my HP match rifle is made off of a circa 1977 Remington 700...its on its 2d barrel... But that had as much to do with the fact that Remington 700s are easy to work with and inexpensive as anything. Personally, I think the M70 offers a better overall platform with its flat bottom receiver and very reliable ejector.extractor and far superior bolt handle/smoother cycling. But they require a bit more setup for rebarreling and its hard to find a cheap used M70 classic action for under $500. Used great condition $350 Remington M700 actions are a dime a dozen. So I used Remington... In fact, I was in a gunstore yesterday and saw three very good to excellent condition M700 ADLs between $350-400 that would be excellent buys for a fellow looking for a deer rifle and certainly head and shoulders above, from a quality standpoint, anything currently being made by Remington. Don't even get me started on the bolt safety shroud and that current gem...the 710. The M700 is a decent enough rifle for what they charge. But there is no way you can look us in the face and tell us that they are as good now as they have ever been. Just ask some of the people here like Jack Belk who earn their living working on guns...they will tell you... I use Alan Warner in NH and Mark Penrod in IN. Call them and ask them about the current production. I've owned about 10 Remington rifles and 3 shotguns over the years. Still have 2 rifles and a shotgun. I still have the factory repair service invoice on at least one rifle I sent back for accuracy problems. Their service is SLOWWWWWW...anyone who has ever sent something back to Remington will tell you this. Its a fact. They make defective products...like all companies. Its a fact. Your expreience with over 100 rifles may be extraordinary in terms of zero defects...then again if you don't shoot em much you really wouldn't know if the thing had problems. And I have no friggin idea how you would ever have enough time to get a good feel in terms of reliability and accuracy of over 100 rifles... Certainly you haven't hunted with any of them more than once or twice. I own over 20 rifles of various makes and will tell you I don't have a good feel for 8 or 10 of em. Don't take this so personally. It kind of makes you look goofy... | |||
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I would like to submit that while 100 rifles is no doubt a large number for an individual to have owned, it is no where near a large enough sample size to conclusively say that the company makes a quality product. Our six sigma person certainly sounds qualified to comment on the fallacy of those statements. I'm no expert on the history of how the military came to choose the 700 but I think if a non-biased organization were to analyze what's available currently for the best (hint, "the best" is a critical phrase here) tactical sniper rifle they would most likely chose something other than the Rem 700. Now when things such as economy of scale come into play it could affect their decision should the manufacturer of "the best" not be able to fill their demand. I'll tell you this much, if I had my choice of platforms for a sniper rifle it for damned sure wouldn't be the Rem700. There are a lot of different uses for rifles and the 700's crappy extractor eliminates it from consideration for many hunters. Because extraction isn't nearly as important for varmint hunting the 700 is a much better choice than some of it's competition. If I wanted to assemble a varmint rifle at cheapest cost then the 700 is hard to argue with given the plethora of aftermarket components available. It's not unlike old cars, a guy might really like the looks of say a Jeep truck but he's biting off a lot of work by not choosing the Chevy with all of the after market parts available. My one Remington rifle? A 1950's Model 30. I may very well own a 700 some day but it will most likely be purchased used and tricked out. I understand that for a guy working in a gun shop selling factory rifles that he can't recommend to buy used and trick it out at a good gunsmith, but that would be MY heartfelt recommendation. If I just absolutely HAD to buy a factory bolt action rifle I would choose from Ruger/Savage/Tikka/CZ based on the intended use. Personally I wouldn't limit myself to bolt-action, again, given intended use. I guess we're all lucky to have choices. Reed | |||
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I had one other thought: NEVER would I recommend a Weatherby...particularly in a Weatherby caliber. Whippy assed barrels, actions that can seize and require drilling from below to release, etc., what an over-priced lot they are. Nothing but a pimp's gun. (I get a little hot when the subject of Weatherby comes up) Use at your own peril. Reed | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting What bolt rifle can you recommend in good conscience?
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