I'll have to jump on the Savage band wagon - bought a 110 30-06 in '96. Sling and scoped model
3-9X Bushy on it I sighted it in at 100 yrds with 165 gr 55.5gr IMR4350 handloads and didn't have to change the scope until I moved up to 180 gr bullets last year Average group was under 1" out of the box with no modifications!! Very accurate and reliable rifle for $325. I don't see the need for the everyday hunter to have to spend more then $500 for a quality rifle.

[ 08-22-2003, 19:44: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Easy.

Buy a tang-safety Ruger for cheap. Yeah, accuracy is a crapshoot. It might shoot and it might not. So what. You have under $300 into the rifle anyway. If it doesn't shoot, send it to Ruger for a new barrel and reblue for $170. Send it to Pac-nor for the same for ~$400. Now you have $450 into a very functional and reliable hunting piece, that -should- shoot great with a little work. Or, you have ~$700 into a functional and reliable hunting piece that -will- shoot great.

Or, take your pushfeed Winchester 70, 1.25" groups and all, and go hunting. When you're boning out that massive muley and dreading the pack back to camp, remember to count your lucky stars that you brought a reliable beater rifle because the rocks and frame packs and sidehilling and slipping and falling is hell on a nice rifle...

Must admit I have never been over impressed with most American rifles I have seen and both Remington and Winchester do have reputations for sending out a high number of lemons. By contrast most of the better known Euro makers seem to have better quality control. Having said that I own a Ruger and a part from its trigger, it was a pretty honest hunting rifle straight from the box. If I were buying again at that price range I would probably go with the CZ 550 American...

With regards Orions views on the Pre '64 M70, I seem to recall Finn Aagard(sp?) writing they were not as good as they are now supposed...Were they the "best of there era" is a difficult one, FN Sako, Paker Hale, and possibly BSA to name a few were producing some pretty decent rifles at that time but I doubt they were producing them in the same numbers as the M70...

Regards,

Pete

I personally own almost every brand of rifle that has been mentioned. Although not in the price range that was specified the ultimate out of the box rifle is the Blaser. Always accurate. Best trigger ever invented. Doesn't need glass bedding. Simple to mount a scope. Easy to change calibers. Do all your hunting with basically one gun with the same trigger pull and you will become a better shot. And did I mention how easy it is to break down and transport. The downside with the Blaser is that you will no longer have a use for all your other rifles.

It's posts like most of these that have given me the desire to par down my collection and concentrate on aquiring some land where I can bowhunt in peace!!

CZ!

RUGER!!

Well having owned/shot or used rrems, savages, ruger, winchester and browning I can honestly reccommend the Ruger, I have owned about 3 or 4 and ALL of them have shot .450 to 1.10 (the worse being a 300 win mag) 'in ant 100. While the winchester was very accurate it was the M70 'yote (22-250). I does seem odd that the most ardent 700 fans think nothing of spending 550 on the rifle and then having the action trued and a new tube screwed on- they are now pushing 1k and then bag on everything else when ther havent afforded the same cash outlay to another rifle ie take a $400 Ruger out of the box shoot some left over factory ammo and a 25 yr old tasco 3-9 shoot it into a 1.5-2in group and call them a boat paddle! The rems I have owned were 30-06's and had hand loads run up for them shot .5 to .75 not bad but hardly the only thing worth buying!
just my .02

Andrew

Making a recommendation in good conscience. I would think a lot would depend on the customer. Most people who want someone to "recommend" for them are just looking for someone to blame when they don't get the job done, for whatever reason. I think that makes me a not very good salesman. I could discuss personal preferences, however. I have been less than impressed by most recent offerings of the manufacturers in general. You used to get a finished product, now you get a starting point, depending on what you want to end up with. JMHO.

Varmintguy sure is loquacious, isn't he? Never say in one word when 500 will do. Methinks he doth protest too much.

I believe it's 22 years ago when i started shooting with bolt action rifles.
I shot mausers,Remington's (Remington 700 magazines on the ADL series are not reliable), Browning's , Tikka's , Steyr, Winchesters, BRNO's, sako's, Krico.
Last years i do most of my hunting with a winchester SS Clasic 270 caliber; the most accurate and reliable rifle i ever owned.
But Sako's, Tikka's and steyr's
are very good. What i can recomend is the BRNO CZ rifles, very accurate and reliable: Real bargains for their value: If i started again i would be very happy with one in 30 06 caliber. If you have more money to spend buy a Sako: a real winner!
Dirk from Flanders

[ 08-24-2003, 19:49: Message edited by: dirk_scout ]

Latest Lousy Remington Rifle Field Report (lol)!: Just yesterday I was able to take one of my latest Remington 700's to the local range for the first time to do barrel breakin and load testing! I had a most enjoyable time in the 75 degree weather with blustery winds 6 to 10 MPH (according to my wind gauge). During my 3 hour session 4 different Antelope crossed the range property in the midst of their fall breeding activities! In total I saw about 40 Antelope during the day including my drive to and from the range!
Back to the "HORRIBLE" Remington 700! I bought this Rifle from a local shop about 2 months ago and finally got a scope to mount on it. The Rifle is a Remington 700 Sendero in caliber 270 Remington! 26" barrel with black finish and fiberglass stock. I mounted a Leupold scope on it by the way.
I want this rifle for high plains Antelope and Mule Deer Hunting along with an occassional Coyote Hunt!
I had some old 270 ammunition from a long ago retired pre-64 Model 70 I own. I began barrel breakin with that ammo and cleaned every round for 5 rounds then every 3 rounds for 15. During this I was consistently whanging the 12"X12" armor gong at 300 yards! No big feat this! But fun! Then I began with my preferred load for this Rifle and its intended uses. I was shooting the 130 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips with H4831SC powder and Federal brass and Federal 210M primers!
Well Remington naysayers (Orion1, Papaschmud, WallyW, EO etc) the Rifle not only shot extremely well - it functioned perfectly! And according to one other shooter at the range "man that Rifle looks great"! But he was a Remington shooter also (should we therefore dismiss his opinion?)! As has been my expererience for the last several years this Remington was extremely easy to find an accurate loading for! The first load tested will do just fine for me it looks like!
The Remington used the last of my test cartridges to provide me with the following 100 yard groups in the burpy wind! .611", .541" and .729"! Hmmm..... my tendency to doubt you naysayers has just grown even stronger by this latest Remingtons performance! As a matter of fact this Rifles performance added to all the experiences I have had in the past with Remingtons brings a smile to my face! And yes Vapodog I to am wondering about the Remington "stone throwers" as you alluded to in your post!
These excellent groups (in that wind) were all shot with new brass by the way and I of course will do a followup posting once I get out to the range with the fireformed brass and no wind.
Speaking of getting to the range - on Tuesday of this week I had to trek 155 miles to Idaho Falls, Idaho to find one of the beautiful Remington 700 Varmint Rifles in the stainless action and barrel with gray laminated stock Rifles in caliber 22-250! You see I apparently have completely ignored the "rumors" or "urban myths" many folks are prone to expound upon and relay regarding Remington 700's! I looked this Rifle over and made sure the Remington people had not screwed on a Winchester barrel or added a lovely Savage stock or put the scope base holes on the action perpindicular to the bore or forgot to drill a hole down the barrel blank or any of the other strange maladies that are oft reported but never seen by me! And I see a lot of Remingtons!
Anyway this beautiful Rifle is now scoped with another American made horror story (in some urbanian myth minds anyway) again - a Leupold scope! For shame! I wonder how it will shoot with the crooked barrel and the tilted chamber and the rough barrel and the broken trigger? Anyone want to bet? You can be sure I will let you know good or bad - fair and balanced is my motto and I won't hesitate to report the shortcomings (if any)! The reason for the long drive and the paying of sales tax in another state was these Rifles were sold out completely in my corner of Montana! Must be a lot of people who do not believe "rumors" and "urban myths"!
By the way naysayer Orion! I am still waiting for the answer to my question! Or are you simply not capable of a positve response and stuck on immature and irrelevant rantings? I doubt you have the fortitude or intelligence to formulate an answer to that question but remember some people do not easily forget those that denounce without reason or fail to back up their outlandish statements. Please answer - we are waiting.
Yeah wonder of wonders another Remington Rifle that shoots well, functions well and looks great with no modifications (bedding, rechambering, blueprinting, no Winchester barrel, no new trigger etc etc)!
Yeah like one poster said I am just extremely lucky! Yes, lucky I am able to make decisions for myself and go with my instincts and experiences and avoid "urban myths" and jealousy!
Let me repeat I do not think Remington Rifles are flawless - no factory arm is! But I would and do heartily and with a clear conscience recommend Remington Rifles to new shooters and those who ask for an accurate and good value Rifle!
Watch out Antelope the VarmintGuy is loose with a Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

444 - "and hearing complaints about a remington PSS that won't shoot under 2" at 100yds coming from a Policeman AND the fact that Remington customer service deemed 2" acceptable ON A TACTICAL RIFLE THAT NEEDS TO BE A 1 MOA SHOOTER OR BETTER"

Sorry, but most policeman aren't the last word when it comes to accurate rifles. No offense to any officers out there, I respect what you do, but cops aren't necessarily the experts when it comes to firearms. Where I work, I've seen plenty that didn't know how to disassemble their sidearm, how to decock it, or know the magazine capacity of their weapon. If this guy has serious rifle experience or sniper training I could accept your conclusion but based on a "policeman" explanation your point deems merit.

Well, after reading through all these posts I have realized that I don't have a rifle that will kill anything. Guess I will just play golf!

I shoot left handed so I am limited in what I can buy with LH actions. Here are my observations on the rifles I own or have owned over the past 15 years.

I keep reading about the poor quality of Remington Rifles. While I do agree that Remington lately seems to run by the motto of turning them out fast and hope they do not not come back I must say that all the 700s I own (5) are very accurate. I have a 22-250, 243, 30-06, 7mm rem mag and 338 win mag. The worst one will shoot 1.25 inch groups all day long (the 338). The best one is a tie between the 22-250 and the 7 mag. Both are 1/2" rifles. The only post 90s 700 I own is the 22-250. I did have feeding problems with it but Remington fixed it for free under warranty. While I wish they had better quality control I still say the 700 is one of the most if not the most acurate rifle on the market. Especially if you find older models.

The absolute worst rifle I ever owned accuracy wise was a Winchester model 70 classic in 30-06. That rifle shot 3-4" groups at best! It drove me crazy. I loved the way it looked and handled but the accuracy was pure crap. I finally sold it. I did get another (stainless and wood with the BOSS) It is very acurat but I still do not like the look of the BOSS even though I get 1/2" 3 shot groups with it. I like model 70s but I see current models having the same quality issues that Remington has. My current model 70 has a PLASTIC FOLLOWER! I will get this replaced with steel soon because it just plain bothers me.

The best Rifles I have owned as far as accuracy and quality as they came from the factory have been Ruger M77 mark IIs. I have 3 at the moment and they all shoot right aroubd 1" groups. The actions are tight and they always feed well. As they did from day 1. The price is right as well. I replaced the factory trigger on my 300 withy a Timney and it is now an outstanding hunting rifle. The other 2 still have the factory trigers but they are good ones that break cleanly and are not to heavy.

I also own a Weatherby MArk V which is a very high quality rifle with a beautiful stock. A Browning Stainless Stalker in 375 HH. It is accuarate and reliable. And my final bolt action rifle is a Savage heavy barrled SS/ laminated varmiter in 22-250. The Savage is extremely accurate but the action is a bit chuncky looking.

If you look at what you get for the $, even if you have toi put a little money into them to get the actions working right I feel that American rifles are a pretty good deal.

[ 09-28-2003, 17:47: Message edited by: Iron Buck ]

Iron Buck: I absolutely agree with your experiences and analysis! The Remingtons are not perfect but they are a pretty good value and I find them consistently accurate and dependable!
Having said that the local sport shop here in Dillon, Montana is having a boomer of a sale on Ruger Rifles (in stock only) - M-77's with wood stocks for $375.00! No tax!
If anyone is interested please give me a shout and I will give you the particulars! They had one 280 Remington that was real nice and for $375.00 I think that value would be very hard to beat!
Long may Remington reign!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Just got back from town and the 280 Rem. M-77 sold today. They have left, one each of the following calibers - left hand 30/06, right handers 338 Win. Mag., 300 Win. Mag., 223 Rem. and a 22-250 Rem.! Man those went fast!
Their phone is 1-800-750-2308.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmintguy

You bought two Remingtons this fall, I've worked on between three and four dozen this month! You are rather lucky, believe it or not, but that's OK, good for you! The next poor sap that gets stuck with an absolute POS from Remington is the guy I'm concerned about!

I never said that they were all bad, however statistically you are much more likely to end up with Remington garbage than garbage from any other maker! About one in twenty is a real shitter for one reason or another, and about one third of the rest are less than acceptable!

Hey Pal, lets see what you'd say to your customer when he comes back with a 22/250 VS with a barrel so rough that it won't shoot less than 3"! I've had that happen to me, NOT somebody else, NOT a story from a friend of a friend! I held the gun in my hands, I examined the bore! Don't presume to tell me what I saw!!!

The rest of the members of this board need to pool our money and have you buy lotto tickets, man you are one LUCKY guy!

BTW like all the exclamation points? It seems I saw that somewhere!

Gabe

Hey Papaschmud! Hey Gabe! - are you trying to tell everyone on this board that THIS MONTH you have worked on 36 to 48 Remington M-700 Rifles that needed warranty repair from the factory OR are you saying you do accurizing work and some or all of these 36 to 48 Remington M-700's were accurized by you?
Please clarify before I tell you what I think of that unclear declaration!
Also I made no statement what so ever regarding the roughness of any Remington barrel you might have come across! So please refrain from from trying to put words into my mouth! You do not have enough horsepower to do that!
If I had a customer come to me with a rough barrelled Remington that would not provide acceptable accuracy I would send the Rifle back to the factory and have them repair it!
I just went down into my Gun room and checked my new and waiting to be shot Remington M-700 VLS in 22-250 AGAIN with my Siebert bore/chamber inspection tool and it appears just fine to me! I checked the Rifle at the sport shop with the Siebert inspection tool and it appeared fine their also! As did, several other variations of the Remington M-700's in 22-250! All appeared just fine! Smooth chambers, nice cleanly made crowns, rifling that appeared uniform and the leades to the Rifling also appeared uniform!
Yeah send money I will gladly buy you and your friends Power-Ball tickets!
As a coincidental aside may I relate that my good friend Tom and his wife Barbara just called me two days ago from a remote mountain top near Chewelah, Washington on their cell phone! They are Hunting Turkeys and Big Game scouting. They had just the night before cashed in a $500.00 winning lotto ticket! They had gotten 5 of the 6 numbers correct including the Gold Ball (Power-Ball) and had just missed the grand prize of $44,000,000.00! Dang! I did not know if I should feel bad for them or celebrate the $500.00 win! They felt bad though! Myself i have played the Montana Power-Ball Lotto just once in the 5 1/2 years since I have been here. I am not much of a gambler! Thats why I buy Remington! By the way I have seen Tom and Barb shoot Remington Rifles for the last 35 years!
And as a matter of fact Gabe I am going to spend $600.00 more of my hard earned dollars today on ANOTHER Remington clunker! I am just worried that someone else will get the Model 700 VLS (stainless steel action and barrel - 26" long) in caliber 223 Remington before I do! You see Papaschmud your arguements to me seem specious and ambiguous (without merit-unconvincing and very non specific)! For instance I again specifically ask you why do my Remingtons shoot so well and perform so reliably for me and for people I know and trust?!?!
Now Gabe please be specific AND careful in your response to my inquiry regarding your work on the 36 to 48 Remingtons THIS MONTH! You see I know many very busy, very competent Gunsmiths and numerous high volume Gun dealer myself! And if your claim seems outrageous or unrealistic - I will AGAIN poll my smith and dealer friends to see if you are credible! Yeah I would do that for you Gabe - my PAL!
Gabe, I simply do not see Remingtons sales falling dramatically! There is a whole world of people out there that trust and use them! Again I will say that Remington M-700's are not perfect but they are also not the horror stories that you and some others portray them to be! I KNOW that for a fact!
Hold into the wind!
VarmintGuy!

orion1: I am still waiting for a response from you to ascertain YOUR veracity! Once you have answered that question which I have repeatedly and respectfully asked on this thread several times I will extend to you the courteousy of a direct answer til then go muck rake somewhere else!
I think you are still just steamed in that you can not answer the simple question I put to you! Thats your problem!
Do not try and put words in my mouth I remind you again. You do not have enough horsepower to do that!
If the time comes when I want to and think it appropriate to call someone a liar - I will, I have many times in the past and you have no say in that matter what so ever!

The Ruger's are leaving fast! The super sale on the Rugers here at my local sportshop has the supply dwindling rapidly. The M-77 22-250 has sold and a fellow was making an offer on the 223 M-77 when I left! I saw that the MSRP on those Rifles was $759.00! I know no one pays full MSRP but that is still a good buy just before Hunting season at $375.00!
And also for papaschmud's and orion1's information I brought home the beautiful 700 VLS in 223 Remington! I was just packaging it up when it got its first compliment from a tourist from Tampa Bay, Florida "gee that is just a sweet looking Raffle"! I deducted the drawl and assumed he meant Rifle! This one won't be coming on line right away as I am so deep into my "mad" money that it will be a couple months before I can scope it up!
But papaschmud and orion1 you will be the first to know how well (or how poorly!) it shoots! I know it does cycle and eject flawlessly as I tested that as soon as I got home. It does need a trigger job but that can wait for a cold windy night (when Coyote calling and spotlighting is futile) this winter.
By the way I received an off board communication from a friend of mine who had read the owners manual and warranty that came with his brand new Remington 700 VLS in 22-250 stainless. His interpretation of the warranty and the lawyer proofing warnings therein led him to believe that any non-Remington authorized adjustment to the trigger would null and void the warranty! I went and re-read both my warranties and owners manuals (they are the same). My interpretation of the warranty was that the Remington Company "would not cover damage to the firearm CAUSED BY unauthorized adjustments, repairs or modifications". So I am not certain but I think a trigger job or the replacement of a trigger with an aftermarket trigger would have little chance of damaging the firearm and in case of one of papaschmuds "horrific" Remington like problems surfacing unless the trigger caused it then the Remington is still under warranty. Thats my interpretaion - I could be wrong (at least according to orion1) and I pass that interesting inquiry of me along to those interested.
Right below this sentence in the warranty book/owners manual is the free long distance number 1-800-243-9700 so those in doubt could certainly call the Remington folks.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

zastava mausers and cz 550s get my vote

Varmintguy

First of all please do not misquote me! I never used the word "horrific" in this thread! If you are going to call my veracity into question (which you obviously are) then you need to get your facts straight! Quote me directly and accurately or don't quote me at all! Try to get it right!

As for the Remingtons I've worked on this month: the number 3-4 dozen refers to all Remington guns I serviced from scope work to shotguns to auto and pump rifles! I did not infer that all those guns were warranty work! Nor did I infer that they were all M700's! If you inferred that, you were wrong!

As to your claim: "Also I made no statement what so ever regarding the roughness of any Remington barrel you might have come across!" In fact you did directly question everyone's Remington problems when you started throwing around the terms "rumors" and "urban myths"! You make it sound as though the M700 is the last word in rifles and that no one could be having problems with them because you haven't! Perhaps it never occured to you that your statistical sample is rather tiny! By comparison to mine and that of 444 shooter it truely is! Man you see the gun counter once and awhile, we have lived there! We are the ones who have to apologize for the garbage that Remington has shipped! Do you really think we are just imagining this! Do you really think I have an ax to grind! Grow up! Pull your head out of the sand or wherever you keep it! Big Green has shipped shit! A lot more by percentage than any other gunmaker IME! They will continue to ship shit until it begins to hurt there bottom line! That's where you and all the rest of the shills come in, you allow this to happen because you continue to buy their products!

Your brand loyalty, while admirable though ignorant, reminds me of a puppy! Unfortunately that loyalty is very blind and juvenile!

Finally in response to your statement that "If I had a customer come to me with a rough barrelled Remington that would not provide acceptable accuracy I would send the Rifle back to the factory and have them repair it!": Sometimes it's just not that simple! Not everyone buys a rifle in summer with enought time to get it back from Remington customer disservice! Maybe that's what we should do to keep the customers happy! No Remington sales after August 1st!

Gabe

P.S. What's up with that trigger! I didn't think Remington's needed any work being as "wonderful" as they are right out of the box!

P.P.S. Do you really think I don't know the meaning of the word "specious"! BTW you got that one wrong too! A specious argument is one that is convicing but false NOT as you defined it "without merit-unconvincing"! Your definition is exactly the opposite of the word's meaning! Hmmmm!

Papa,
As long as we're handing out English lessons I'll add one more: "infer" is what the reader does, "imply" is what the writer does.

You're absolutely right, my wife was reading the post the morning (checking up on me?) and pointed the same thing out.

Gabe

Varmint guy, I need to prove my veracity to no one.

You talk so much shit that you've lost track of the number of times you have contradicted yourself re. the Model 70.

It has been my experience that the longer a post, the more full of shit the poster is.

[ 10-02-2003, 20:56: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]

Papa,
I hear you. Wives do tend to do that - and over your shoulder, too!

papaschmud!: Oh! So now the Remingtons that you "have to work on" are shotguns and rimfires and Rifles that need SCOPES or recoil pads! I SEE!
I think I am beginning to understand your rants against Remington! They are specious and ambiguous rants! Just like I stated before! I think I am begining to see where you are going! You are backing off now that you are being questioned! I have seen this before. More on this later!
And by the way I will take this time to correct your english also! Your attempt at correcting my CORRECT use of the words specious and ambiguous was INCORRECT! I in fact used both words correctly! Those words were both used correctly according to the two dictionaries I have here on my desk (Websters Dictionary 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers and The American Collegiate Dictionary 1952 - 2 volume set, Spencer Press Inc.)! I am sorry to have to correct your incorrect correction!
Back to Remington 700 Rifles! So now you choose to begin dancing backwards away from your overwhelming (apparently overwhelming as you call them sh-t!) dissatisfaction with Remington 700's! Hmmmm!!! Somehow I thought you would! That is not unusual though as I notice everyone else does so also when pressed for details!
So here comes the press papaschmud - what exactly ARE YOU SAYING?!?! What percentage of Remington 700 Rifles exactly are "horrific" (my word) or overly inaccurate or otherwise grossly unsatisfactory - in your opinion?
Yes I am asking you directly and specifically what percentage of Remington 700's are "SH-T" (your word)? In the past when I have asked naysayers like you to quantify (give specific numbers for) their allegations they really dance away from the issue! Lets see what papaschmud does in this regard!
We already know what orion1 does when asked specific questions - he cowers, refuses to answer and then resorts to the immature practice of name calling! That as we all know is the last resort of people who are loosing an argument!
I declare victory over the orion1 in the matter of - "a Rifle that can be recommended with a clear conscience for $400.00 to $600.00"!
Oh yeah orion1 like anyone is going to give any credibility to an immature name caller who refuses repeatedly to answer a simple and direct question or give any reasonable response to support or defend his allegations! You have brought into question (and then foolishly answered) your own credibility shortcomings! And they are manifest! You are not credible and have no veracity what so ever that I can detect! You have proven you are immature though. Yes orion1 your only proficiency that is obvious is in cowering and name calling! Real commendable attributes - maybe for a six year old!
I would refer both of you Remington naysayers to the fine article in the November/December issue of Petersen's Rifle Shooter Magazine. In it Layne Simpson writes an article titled "The Remington 700". Among other enlightenments in the article by "the trusted" author and Rifle expert Layne Simpson (orion1 try and discredit Mr. Simpson - LOL!) I will relay just a couple of things from his article that are vary interesting and impressive. #1: The Remington Model 700 has been produced in 42 different cartridge chamberings since 1963! #2: The Remington Model 700 is now the most popular bolt action centerfire sporting Rifle ever produced! Not just in the United States but now IN THE WORLD! Close to 4,000,000 shipped so far! Those ARE impressive and commendable numbers whether you two "experts" agree or not!
LOL!
Long may the Remington Model 700 reign!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Heres whats up with the Remington 700 trigger gabe - it is one of the finest triggers ever to be used on a factory Rifle! Pretending that the factory pull weight setting of 6+ pounds is anyones fault other than the current crop of ambulance chasing lawyers further diminishes YOUR credibility! This trigger is easy to adjust (and to safety check) to a pull weight that is very pleasing to Hunter and target shooters alike! Do not even attempt to cast aspersions on it design or quality due to a factory setting mandated by Americas current crop of lawyers and their greed!
P.P.S.: Yes gabe I did doubt your ability to understand less commonly used english words! That is why I gave you an easy to understand bit of assistance there in parenthesis!

[ 10-02-2003, 21:42: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

Varmintguy,

I been watching this thread with vast amusement and have stayed out of the fray for the most part. However, your childish devotion to the Remington 700 is beginning to wear thin.

I have several 700's, and although they are fine rifles, they are not without sin. To continue to conclude as such, because you have 42 or 72 or 172, trouble free one's out of 4,000,000 or so, offends logic, and you seem like a fairly intelligent fellow.

Remington's have the following virtues:

Very Accurate out of the box
Lightweight (Ti, Mountain and KS versions especially)
Priced right for the average buyer
A good variety of calibers, wood, synthetic, stainless, in other words a lot of choices for the consumer.

Faults:

Plunger ejector
weak extractor
two position safety
And possibly the most dangerous trigger currently made.

Now unless hunting dangerous game, I can ignore the plunger ejector and weak extraction. The two position safety and dangerous trigger, is also easily fixed. Just buy a Timmney trigger with ULA 3 position safety, and throw the Remington junk away! Or sell it someone like you.

Want to buy some Remington triggers and safeties?

If you do not believe these things about the Remington triggers, do some searches (in gunsmithing) on this site and others. It may open your eyes.

Thanks,

Bob

Orion 1,

While you are of course correct, and the plunger has been used well on two legged dangerous game, I still believe that a fixed ejector (al la mauser or even Sako) is a superior system, no matter how slight. If Sako can make a push feed with manual ejection, so can Remington. Therefore, in my book it is a weakness.

Regards,

Bob

i would just like to point out that although this varmint guy may LIVE in montana, he is obviously not FROM montana.

either that, or he went to college in missoula.

Bob: I disagree with your depiction of the Remington triggers as unsafe! I have never had one fail and I have pulled on them tens of thousands of times!
I have also used the Remington safety many thousands of times and none of my Remingtons safeties have malfunctioned! No accidental misfires, no slam fires, no creep - nothing, just reliable service! Oh yes I have adjusted and had adjusted many Remington triggers. This is a minor inconvenience or cost and certainly not a clearly thought out reason to not buy a Remington 700!Where am I going wrong here! And by the way I see want ads fairly often from people wanting to buy Remington 700 triggers!
Oh yeah I have heard of, and read about many daring and startling reports regarding the Remington M-700's dangerous triggers - just never seen one!
I have even read the legal briefs for numerous civil lawsuits regarding Remington triggers. These are available also for interested parties who want to read BOTH SIDES of this issue! I think you would be very interested in reading them!
OK Bob! Then with a clear conscience which factory Rifle do you recommend to todays shopper with $400.00 to $600.00 to spend? Which one do you think is more accurate, more reliable, safer, looks better, holds its value better and would provide our shopper with less major inconveniences than the Remington 700?
Lest I repeat for you also Bob - I have never said that Remington 700's were, are or will be perfect! They are not, were not nor will they be in my opinion! But they are uncommonly accurate, safe, good looking, easy to resell and reliable! Their reputation is not that tarnished - as yet anyway! As Layne Simpson points out in his article - the most popular and successful centefire sporting Rifle IN THE WORLD! Ever wonder if the sales of 4,000,000 Model 700's is a fluke? I don't. It deserves its place at the top!
Mr. orion1 tried interjecting my admiration for the pre-64 Model 70 Winchester into his diatribes but apparently he has forgotten that the Winchester Company quit making that fine Rifle 40 years ago!
The outline of our debate is a current manufacture $400.00 to $600.00 dollar Rifle and the clear conscience recommendation! He cowers from the question - I hope you can do better. Thank you for the oppurtunity to clarify (again) my opinion of the Remington M-700!
I heartily recommend the good looking, safe, accurate, good valued and ever popular Remington 700!
Long may Remington 700's reign!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

tasunkawiko: Are you trying to outdo orion1 in the immaturity race? If you have something to add do so. Your name calling is simply your immaturity and a lack of a credible argument surfacing.
Which Rifle do you recommend? Or are you just here for the chance to make immature and irrelevent comments!
Or do you prefer to cower with the rest of the sheep up Lewistown way?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

>>>tasunkawiko: Are you trying to outdo orion1 in the immaturity race?<<<

no, i simply don't want anyone to get the impression that montana is full of asinine, petulant individuals such as yourself. a montanan isn't obsessed with being right to the point of being obnoxious.

>>>If you have something to add do so. Your name calling is simply your immaturity and a lack of a credible argument surfacing.<<<

uh, hello? kettle, is that you? hi! this is the pot! just wanted to call and let you know that you are black!

>>>Which Rifle do you recommend? Or are you just here for the chance to make immature and irrelevent comments!<<<

if you took the time to read anything beyond your own self-styled jovian proclamations, you would see that i am partial to zastava mausers and the cz m550 american. i've already posted that, but will be happy to do so again for you since you may have been too busy pontificating to notice anyone else's humble opinion. i want to clarify, however, that i do not find fault with your preferred rifle, just your ridiculous, non-montanan attitude. you must be from kali....they are so desperate for acceptance here in montana that they always HAVE to be right at all costs. go ahead and be right if you want. it doesn't change the fact that you are painting yourself as a dickhead.

>>>Or do you prefer to cower with the rest of the sheep up Lewistown way?<<<

since you obviously know nothing about lewistown, you might want to quit while you are behind. if you want to carry it further, do so in PM, or come on over to lewistown. we'll get everything straightened out.

tasunkawitko: Well at least you have an answer even if you enjoy your own rudeness liberally thrown in on both sides of it! Which no one else enjoys - I am sure!
Yeah I may just have to stop in Lewistown and see what is what the next time I am through! Could be as soon as October 15th-ish!
What you so rudely and immaturely refer to as pontificating I call defending my point of view, experiences and giving creedence to my side of the argument! I will keep doing so with or without permission from you or anyone else in Lewistown! Your bluster has about as much chance of influencing me as a fart in the Wyoming wind has of staying in one spot. Don't over indulge yourself with your abilities, ability to judge others and pass judgement on them - you might just become disappointed!
Anyway cut the macho crap and stick with the topic! Thanks for what you added in between the BS. Also I have never seen one of those Rifles in the field or at the range please relay accuracy potential, calibers, price and such in a coherent
adult manner.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[ 10-03-2003, 08:11: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

NWMT

[ 10-03-2003, 12:05: Message edited by: Nebraska ]