I’m interested in hearing from people in the know(Aaron Neilson, and others), will we see states scrap the big game points programs that are currently in place?

I never took this question seriously until a couple of years ago when Guy Eastman outlined the reasons he believes the current systems in most states are unsustainable. Guy Eastman is the head of Eastman’s Hunting Journal which is a publication that seems to profit from giving its subscribers info on the draws in all western states. Because his business seems to benefit from the draw systems I was shocked to see him promoting the idea that the points systems were on the way out.


There are a lot of reasons that I don’t believe that this will happen. First, I have yet to see evidence that a single state is headed in that direction. Second, with states selling points(often at considerable cost) it would seem that states are entering into a “contact” with points purchasers, one that might leave them open lawsuits if they were to suddenly scrap the programs. But I’m guessing that they have all such possibilities covered in the fine print???

Personally I do see the systems changing, but I don’t believe that they will go away.



So my question: what do you believe the future holds for big game points systems/drawings?



Please try to explain your thoughts but let’s leave our opinions of the systems and game departments out of the discussions.

quote:

Personally I do see the systems changing, but I don’t believe that they will go away.

Once a state get on the point money train'

They become addicted to the cash flow.

Then like any addict they will not give it up.

I would like to see a Sheep Geezer draw for old men and women. It is too bad that many people have been putting in for sheep so long that they have outlived their ability to make it up the mountain. Heck, they have youth sheep draws, why not a Geezer draw?

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Personally I do see the systems changing, but I don’t believe that they will go away.

Once a state get on the point money train'

They become addicted to the cash flow.

Then like any addict they will not give it up.

This here is the answer to your question 100%. They are all making way too much money from app fees, plus point fees, plus the license fees needed in some states to apply, etc.

Plus...all the guys who have spent 10 - 25 yrs gaining those points would storm the offices with pitch forks, looking to burn the place down!

I'm glad to be out of that game. I've killed mine----let someone get their trophy of a lifetime.

The only game I play is for a limited CO spring turkey tag. I draw about every 3 years. I love hearing that "Gobble".

My thoughts....

No, they will not end. Money aside, how would they justify taking the points away from someone that has spent many years and $$$ accruing them?

I personally hate the point system but there is nothing I can do about it. I do have a lot of points built up however.

In my opinion, one must do their homework and apply, apply, and apply.

The states game departments are whores for the money.

Idaho, Alaska and New Mexico are the only western states that do not have points programs. Even the Texas hunting drawings have points.

I won't say that it will never end, but I don't see it going away.

At some point in 10-15 years when it takes 10 years to draw a Wyoming General season elk tag things might change.

For a guy starting out hunting entirely on public land, it is getting harder.

Resident points are probably the stupidest thing that ever happened to hunting.

Most of you have mentioned the revenue that states bring in from the points systems/drawings.

I failed to mention that Eastman and others have pointed to falling revenue from the point system as a reason that the game departments will be forced to change the system.

The idea is that it was easy to get buy-in when points systems began because points were cheap and there was the perception that your points would eventually get you a tag. The issue is that points costs have increased and the number of points needed to draw a tag has steadily crept up.

For example: Wyoming increased their sheep points to $150. The guys who have near max points were forced to suck it up and pay the price, because no one wants to drop out of the game when they are so close. But getting new people to buy into the system will be difficult as it is hard to convince someone to start paying $150 per year for points that won’t get them anything for several decades(at least).

And right now Wyoming has the max and near max point holders over the barrel because no one wants to lose their points. But how old are the guys who have been putting in for 20+ years? You don’t have to look at the numbers for too long before you realize that a lot of these guys won’t still be buying points in 20 years.

So with no new blood coming in, and a lot of the old timers leaving the points system revenue will fall. And if you raise prices to try to increase revenue you compound the problem. You can only squeeze the golden goose so hard, for so long....

And so then what do the departments do?

Personally I see them incrementally increasing the number of random draw tags, and/or adding in a bonus point type system alongside the preference point system.

I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this.
.

Yes, it is a cash cow.

But the amount of ass rape that $150 brings for sheep and moose points in Wyoming is tough to swallow.

Last year was the first year I have not bought points for both species since about 2010. I gave up, I do not see a scenario playing out where I will get a tag while I am physically able to hunt them.

I wouldn't have a problem with that in a no points system.

The guy that asked a couple days ago about starting your kids off on points in the west. My own drama with the Wyoming draws fresh in my mind, I can not recommend building points and trying to keep a kid interested so they can kill something 10-15 years from now.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Yes, it is a cash cow.

But the amount of ass rape that $150 brings for sheep and moose points in Wyoming is tough to swallow.

Last year was the first year I have not bought points for both species since about 2010. I gave up, I do not see a scenario playing out where I will get a tag while I am physically able to hunt them.

That is exactly my point in my last post: price increases are squeezing out everyone except the max point holders, and what happens when the max point holders start to leave due to age, point fatigue, etc? The only answer: revenue crashes.

And what happens then?

Do we keep a non revenue generating point system out of tradition???

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Yes, it is a cash cow.

But the amount of ass rape that $150 brings for sheep and moose points in Wyoming is tough to swallow.

Last year was the first year I have not bought points for both species since about 2010. I gave up, I do not see a scenario playing out where I will get a tag while I am physically able to hunt them.

I wouldn't have a problem with that in a no points system.

The guy that asked a couple days ago about starting your kids off on points in the west. My own drama with the Wyoming draws fresh in my mind, I can not recommend building points and trying to keep a kid interested so they can kill something 10-15 years from now.

Just remember unless you are at max points for moose / sheep in WY or very close - DO NOT waste your money on points! Your only chance is the random draw - and points play no part in that.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
...
Personally I see them incrementally increasing the number of random draw tags, and/or adding in a bonus point type system alongside the preference point system.

I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this.
.

What do you mean by a "bonus point type system"?

Yeah

quote:

Originally posted by Hannay:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
...
Personally I see them incrementally increasing the number of random draw tags, and/or adding in a bonus point type system alongside the preference point system.

I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this.
.

What do you mean by a "bonus point type system"?

What most states call “preference points” is a system that awards tags to the highest point holders first.

“Bonus points” are similar in that you earn one a year. The difference is that bonus points give you an extra chance for each point. So if you have nine points you have a 10x better chance of drawing the tag than a guy with zero points. Some states, such as Nevada, square your points which increases the odds even more in favor of the guys with more points.

The selling point of bonus point systems are that everyone has a chance, even a guy entering for the first time, but it also favors the guys who have been applying longer.

Bonus points can be used effectively.

But they can also be abused.

Any state that squares or cubes bonus points is doing a huge disservice those that hunt there.

Especially as they raise the cost of those points.

Bonus points cause things like .009 percent chance of drawing a tag. I have seen this in Utah, Arizona and Montana.

Here is where I am at.

I will pay for a goat hunt or a moose hunt in Canada over accumulating points. I might pay for a mid-range private land elk hunt, not yet but probably not too distantly.

I am kind of over points. There are places that make sense, but most of them do not.

quote:

Originally posted by squeezenhope:
I would like to see a Sheep Geezer draw for old men and women. It is too bad that many people have been putting in for sheep so long that they have outlived their ability to make it up the mountain. Heck, they have youth sheep draws, why not a Geezer draw?

I have a friend who put in for Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep for 43 years before being drawn, most was before the bonus point system.
What happens in 43 years? She got old and wore out.
Fortunately she is part of a large group who go out every year and set up a camp in the desert to support the person who does get drawn. Two young, very large guys got her to where she needed to be to get the sheep, others were following the sheep movement to know where to go. One of the assistants told her his earliest memories was of being in the sheep camp and her feeding him breakfast..... She was getting up the mountain and shooting a sheep.
It was a very nice one.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

Any state that squares or cubes bonus points is doing a huge disservice those that hunt there.

—————-

Bonus points cause things like .009 percent chance of drawing a tag.

How are they doing a disservice to those who hunt there? I kinda like the idea of a guy who has been putting in for 20 years having an 8,000 times better chance than the guy who is putting in for the first time.

It depresses me to think of a tag going to a guy who put in for the first time over guys who have been putting in unsuccessfully their entire lives. But some people tell me that is more fair than any type of system that gives preference anyone.

quote:

How are they doing a disservice to those who hunt there? I kinda like the idea of a guy who has been putting in for 20 years having an 8,000 times better chance than the guy who is putting in for the first time.

It depresses me to think of a tag going to a guy who put in for the first time over guys who have been putting in unsuccessfully their entire lives. But some people tell me that is more fair than any type of system that gives preference anyone.

My argument (opinion) would be that a new hunter would have close to a zero chance. With youth interest in hunting being very fragile in this day, giving newer hunters a chance would benefit all of us.

I say this as I sit on 20 sheep points in Utah and max points for deer and elk in Wyoming.

At this point, there really is no perfect solution

I got lucky with my desert now the wait for the rocky. I should be about 80 then lol I’ll need an army with me too

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Clark:

quote:

Originally posted by squeezenhope:
I would like to see a Sheep Geezer draw for old men and women. It is too bad that many people have been putting in for sheep so long that they have outlived their ability to make it up the mountain. Heck, they have youth sheep draws, why not a Geezer draw?

I have a friend who put in for Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep for 43 years before being drawn, most was before the bonus point system.
What happens in 43 years? She got old and wore out.
Fortunately she is part of a large group who go out every year and set up a camp in the desert to support the person who does get drawn. Two young, very large guys got her to where she needed to be to get the sheep, others were following the sheep movement to know where to go. One of the assistants told her his earliest memories was of being in the sheep camp and her feeding him breakfast..... She was getting up the mountain and shooting a sheep.
It was a very nice one.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

How are they doing a disservice to those who hunt there? I kinda like the idea of a guy who has been putting in for 20 years having an 8,000 times better chance than the guy who is putting in for the first time.

It depresses me to think of a tag going to a guy who put in for the first time over guys who have been putting in unsuccessfully their entire lives. But some people tell me that is more fair than any type of system that gives preference anyone.

My argument (opinion) would be that a new hunter would have close to a zero chance. With youth interest in hunting being very fragile in this day, giving newer hunters a chance would benefit all of us.

I say this as I sit on 20 sheep points in Utah and max points for deer and elk in Wyoming.

At this point, there really is no perfect solution

From my point of view, bonus point systems do give the first time applicant a chance, slim though it may be. A preference point system gives the first time applicant zero chance, and they may have zero chance forever for certain species.

Many states have youth draws. I have mixed feelings about them. I love the idea of giving new hunters a shot at hunting antelope, elk or deer or any species that is abundant. I like the idea of special youth seasons, relaxed antler restrictions, and anything else that will make the experience of young hunters more positive.

What I don’t like is any of the coveted tags that many will never draw in a lifetime of applying(sheep, goat, moose) being set aside for a youth draw. That is plain BS. If a kid is passionate about hunting sheep that kid is already going to be a hunter for life and doesn’t need extra encouragement. And if they are that passionate they will find a way to make it happen. But we all know that no 13 year old is applying for a youth tag on their own, and most of them wouldn’t have thought of it id their dad hadn’t mentioned that he was putting in for the youth hunt for them.

Those tags should go to he guys who have been putting in for 20 years.

Of course I say this as a guy who has a deposit down on a flight for a dall sheep hunt during the youth season for my 10 year old daughter....

Youth programs for sheep, moose and goat are BS.

We have them here in New Mexico for Ibex.

Saying that I am applying all the kids that get through hunter safety this year for all species next year. My girls are 4, 6, and 8.

The 8 year old and I are doing hunter safety online. The websites won't allow her to actually take it until she is 10, so I need to talk to the state and see if there is a work around or not.

But she can legally hunt if she passes hunter safety.

New hunters need tags to become old hunters. Preference points do a huge disservice to those that hunt a state by not allowing anyone but the people with max points to play.

Here is a problem I see. We all want and need more hunters. Everyone, even the feds tell us, hunting participation is declining. The point situation and point creep in the face of declining hunter participation tells me we really have an unsustainable model of Western Wildlife Game Management.

Of course when hunter number drop prices for applications, tags, licenses, points go up to adjust for the lost income from total number of hunters.

Personally, I’ve been putting in for points for some time, and other than every 2-3 years getting a doe tag (most folks here get them annually, it seems) I drew one high likelihood tag in AZ for mule deer (10 years ago, first time try) and drew pronghorn in MT 2 years ago (4 years trying) and mule deer last year, after 5 years.

I’d really rather have them set the price at market and be done with it. Planning is so much easier then.

I like the idea of easing restrictions on kids (like no antler rules or automatic doe tags) but giving them special seasons and extra opportunities doesn’t seem to really get more hunters- because most quit when the fun easy hunting ends and they get stuck with the poor opportunities that the average guy gets.

Sheep, goat, bison, bear are all more luxury or specialty hunts. No one needs to feed anyone on them. Moose in the lower 48 as well. They also shouldn’t be easier to get as a kid than as a geezer, and frankly, most youth hunters I’ve seen operating around here are thinly veiled hunts for dad that at best the kid just pulls a trigger, and I’ve seen dads do that often as well- regardless of the rules.

A straight up lottery at minimal cost makes some sense to allow the less financially well off some chance, but if it’s about revenue, price at market and be done with it.

I have known multiple people that did a party hunt on bighorn sheep or moose illegally for another member of the family (youth or elderly) just to get the tag filled.

KY elk has no points. Tags have been reduced dramatically over the years, but I have drawn 2 tags.

One a bull. I could not go had to study and take LSAT.

One a cow. I got to go with one of my brothers. We were the only ones who killed a cow on that calendar.

Hopefully we kill a couple of them this year LHeym500

NM draw results are expected shortly...possibly today? We'll see - if you applied, good luck!

Who cares? Those with a lot of points and those who what to hunt a limited resource without a lot of points. The vast majority of hunter don't care. Most hunters think an elk hunt out west is a big deal, and it is. They can do that every year without any points.

I like to hunt now. I occasionally put in for some supertag in some state just to do it, but if I forget to apply I don't feel like I missed out. They should probably leave the system just like it is.

If you want to hunt out west there are a lot of opportunities. If you are selective about what you hunt, you will have to pay the price of time and money. And a person who has enough time and money can hunt every year and put in for limited entry tags and points. Isn't it great? It is a choice.

Must be spring and those with points and those pursuing points are thinking about their choices.

Oh and I don't know if there are "youth" sheep/Moose etc. tags but if there are there shouldn't be. I want kids to get excited about hunting rabbits first. If a kid gets excited about hunting rabbits the rest is easy. Just my opinion.

I have been saying it for ever that any special tags should be only available after you turn 18
Pretty simple
Kids should learn on rabbits, turkeys and deer

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I have been saying it for ever that any special tags should be only available after you turn 18
Pretty simple
Kids should learn on rabbits, turkeys and deer

Here in Idaho they have a really stupid law / rule...allowing parents and/or grandparents to transfer a "limited draw / controlled" elk, deer or antelope tag to a child or grandchild, without reason. The point is...its grossly abused as one can imagine. Guys apply their wives, and ALL the grandparents, who have no interest / intention of ever going hunting - hoping someone draws a coveted tag, just so they can give it to their kid.

Even step parents / step grand parents can apply and transfer the tags too. So some families could get as many as 8-10 chances to draw a coveted tag with only one intention of transferring it amongst their family youth.

I'm not against the kids applying for their own permit at all...but some families are applying everyone they can - and no specific reason / necessity is required to transfer the tag to a child in their family!

quote:

I'm not against the kids applying for their own permit at all...but some families are applying everyone they can - and no specific reason / necessity is required to transfer the tag to a child in their family

But just think of all the money the state is raking in.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I'm not against the kids applying for their own permit at all...but some families are applying everyone they can - and no specific reason / necessity is required to transfer the tag to a child in their family

But just think of all the money the state is raking in.

Exactly right!

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I'm not against the kids applying for their own permit at all...but some families are applying everyone they can - and no specific reason / necessity is required to transfer the tag to a child in their family

But just think of all the money the state is raking in.

This just underlines the fact that there is a lot of f*ckery going on in all of these drawing systems.

And YES states are raking in big bucks in these systems today. But it is clear that some of these systems are headed for a crash. Wyoming’s moose and sheep drawings are a great example. Entering and earning a point in these draws costs $150 each for non residents and as Aaron has outlined in another thread only those with near max points will ever have a chance to draw these tags in their lifetime. So it follows that the only people that will continue to pony up the $150 a year are the near max point holders. And at some point in the next 20 or 30 years those dudes will die off and the system will fail to be profitable. Obviously the states won’t continue with unprofitable models. We know that the game departments main concern with the draw system is maximum profit.(I am mostly talking about moose, sheep and goat. These are the ones that tend to offer nothing to the lower point holders)

And to make a maximum profit they will have to come up with ways to get new blood into the system.

So my question is: when the draws become less profitable how do you think they will adjust them?

My solution:

1. Preference points for those with max points not to exceed 25% of the tags. First drawing.

2. Bonus points straight with no multiplication of bonus points for 20% of the tags. Second drawing.

3. Open raffle at 35% of the tags. Third drawing.

4. Seperate Open raffle at 20% of the tags for twice the price for every species

5. May not draw more than one premium species in a year. Here in New Mexico it would be Valles Caldera Elk, Oryx, Ibex or Bighorns. Most western states would be bison, sheep, moose, and mountain goat.

I would be willing to bet that we will see something like that in the future.

I would think 1/3 preference points, 1/3 bonus points and 1/3 random would make sense.

They would make more money this way because more new people would get into the draw and the fact that they are accruing points would keep them in.

The change will be gradual I would guess.

No points ... you turn 18 and you start applying for anything and you get one chance
It is so simple
I get the fact that we all want better chance thann next guy but it became a shit show

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
...

Plus...all the guys who have spent 10 - 25 yrs gaining those points would storm the offices with pitch forks, looking to burn the place down!

That is the reason I will not hunt any game that requires a drawing in NA, and prefer Africa. When I want to hunt, I want to hunt not wait years for a tag. Not to mention filing taxes is less complicated than entering a drawing, especially here in CA. That is why there are so many companies in business, navigating the drawings for people.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
...

Plus...all the guys who have spent 10 - 25 yrs gaining those points would storm the offices with pitch forks, looking to burn the place down!

That is the reason I will not hunt any game that requires a drawing in NA, and prefer Africa. When I want to hunt, I want to hunt not wait years for a tag. Not to mention filing taxes is less complicated than entering a drawing, especially here in CA. That is why there are so many companies in business, navigating the drawings for people.

I'm not aware of a single big game species in NA that's open to legal / sport hunting, that one cannot buy a hunt / tag for, and go hunting?

I applied for 4 species in CA just yesterday...it took me maybe 5 minutes from start to finish.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I applied for 4 species in CA just yesterday...it took me maybe 5 minutes from start to finish.

Yeah, it took five minutes yesterday, and how many hundreds of hours of research over the past 20 years?

We all know that getting up to speed on the draws for each state is like learning a new language.

But on the other hand I have heard guys say that hunting Africa is overly complicated because you have "so many permits and fees" and they go on to list every permit and fee that comes up in every country. In reality, none of it is that difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I applied for 4 species in CA just yesterday...it took me maybe 5 minutes from start to finish.

Yeah, it took five minutes yesterday, and how many hundreds of hours of research over the past 20 years?

Geez Jason...don't be such a buzz kill!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Geez Jason...don't be such a buzz kill!

My point is that the learning curve is pretty darn steep.

And "hundreds of hours" is probably an underestimation. Unless we are talking about a single state.