quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Geez Jason...don't be such a buzz kill!

My point is that the learning curve is pretty darn steep.

And "hundreds of hours" is probably an underestimation. Unless we are talking about a single state.

The draws are a bit complicated. However, I subscribe to Epic Outdoors for a $100 a year and everything is explained quite well.

If one does not want the headache, sign up with a company to apply for you (I believe Aaron does this).

In the big picture, it is certainly worth applying. There is nothing like doing a DIY hunt in the a West.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
...
I'm not aware of a single big game species in NA that's open to legal / sport hunting, that one cannot buy a hunt / tag for, and go hunting?

I applied for 4 species in CA just yesterday...it took me maybe 5 minutes from start to finish.

Did you use a service? I looked at CA procedures for drawings the other day, after an hour or so, I still don't know how the damn thing is supposed to work.

And then the after hunt stuff of sending them the skulls etc. is crazy.

Can someone give me a simple explanation of the purpose of these "points" systems?I was raised in Texas and still live and hunt in Texas and we have no such systems. Is there not enough game to go around in some other states? Or is there not enough places to hunt in other states? ???

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Can someone give me a simple explanation of the purpose of these "points" systems?I was raised in Texas and still live and hunt in Texas and we have no such systems. Is there not enough game to go around in some other states? Or is there not enough places to hunt in other states? ???

Basically in other states most of the game is found on public land which is open to the public free of charge. Because of this the game in certain units would be over hunted(areas that are well known for trophy sized animals, etc). Also with certain species such as sheep and moose there were simply not enough animals to go around.

So states began having random drawings to distribute the limited number of tags.

quickly it became clear that random draws were "not fair" in that one hunter might be drawn several times, while another hunter might not be drawn at all during the same time period. So someone came up with the idea to give a "point" to unsuccessful applicants each year which would allow them to have better odds of drawing when compared to those who had drawn tags in past years.

This system works in that it spreads opportunity more evenly.

But it has gotten to the point with some species that a person may apply every year for their entire life and still not draw a tag. This was accepted as part of the system with random draws but at the time people were paying +-$5 for an application each year.

Now states have been using these points as a revenue stream. And some states have been abusing this "golden goose". Wyoming is a perfect example: non residents are required to pay $150 each year for sheep or moose tags. For the guys who have a high point total this is just part of playing the game.... But for new guys coming into the system there is little reason to begin applying for sheep and moose in Wyoming because most will never draw a tag in their lifetime, and if they do draw a tag they will be very, very old.

So who is going to jump into this system when you are most likely throwing away $300 per year for life? And once the pool of people applying begins to shrink how will states maintain this revenue stream? You cant keep increasing the cost to make up for the shrinking number of applicants.

And yes, Texas does not have this problem because most of the game is on private land so landowners regulate the harvests. This works out fine, but the hunting is not free for everyone as it is on public land in other states.

Texas has points systems in their drawn hunting program.

It is just part of the cost of applying for a tag.

Thank you Jason.
It is interesting to me that I have hunted in states that have drawings and points but all I did was to hunt with a friend or outfitter. The one public land hunt I did in Montana was a real bummer- pretty country, but too many hunters and too few elk. so I have hunted only private land since.

BWW - You may be correct, but not in my experience. I am aware of fund raising drawings and of drawings to hunt a specific exotic animal on a specific park property (Sambar for example).
Sambar can also be hunted on private exotic ranches just like many other exotic species like elk and Cape buffalo. I shoot an elk or red deer for meat every couple years. Bison are readily available too.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Thank you Jason.
It is interesting to me that I have hunted in states that have drawings and points but all I did was to hunt with a friend or outfitter. The one public land hunt I did in Montana was a real bummer- pretty country, but too many hunters and too few elk. so I have hunted only private land since.

You are most welcome.

And you are correct that most states have other opportunities for hunting that don't involve a drawing. For the more available species there are usually over the counter tag and landowner tags available. The downside to the OTC tags is that you will be stuck with marginal hunting area or high hunting pressure, usually both. And landowner tags are expensive.

When I made the post you quoted I kept thinking "I'd rather have to draw my tags than live in a place like Texas where there is little or no public land and you have to pay for all the hunting you do...."

I love public land and "freedom". That is why I moved to Alaska. I think of Alaska as being the polar opposite of Texas as far as hunting goes.

But after some self reflection I thought of the $35,000 that I have invested in two hunting(and fishing) vehicles that I have purchased to be able to access the "free" hunting we have.... It makes Texas look inexpensive and the point systems in other states seem downright cheap.

quote:

But after some self reflection I thought of the $35,000 that I have invested in two hunting(and fishing) vehicles that I have purchased to be able to access the "free" hunting we have

The biggest problem in AK hunting is access to all the good hunting

quote:

The downside to the OTC tags is that you will be stuck with marginal hunting area or high hunting pressure, usually both. And landowner tags are expens

Jason,
When I first hunted southwest Colorado a few years ago, there was a surplus of elk and you could buy a OTC tag and shoot a bull elk, buy another OTC tag as long as you liked. We hunted a 10,000 acre property with a small river through it and saw many mature bulls; one hunter took a 7X7 from an overlook where I also hunted and saw 4 big bulls out of range. I finally took this one after we discovered one of the honey holes on that property:

This one oversees outdoor activity on our courtyard.Now I only hunt elk cows for meat.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
...
I'm not aware of a single big game species in NA that's open to legal / sport hunting, that one cannot buy a hunt / tag for, and go hunting?

I applied for 4 species in CA just yesterday...it took me maybe 5 minutes from start to finish.

Did you use a service? I looked at CA procedures for drawings the other day, after an hour or so, I still don't know how the damn thing is supposed to work.

And then the after hunt stuff of sending them the skulls etc. is crazy.

No sir I didn't...I know exactly how CA works.

As a CA resident you have multiple draw opportunities available...including desert bighorn, tule elk, rocky elk or roosevelt elk, antelope, mule deer, etc.

If you are not at max points for said species you would go into the random draw for these species. If you really want to apply, tell me which species you are interested in - and I can send you a link and walk your through it in minutes via email.

When I started this thread two years ago, there were people grumbling about changes that might come.....

From what I hear there is now a bill in the Wyoming legislature that would convert all preference points to bonus points which would be squared for the drawing. As I understand it, this may or may not pass, but it is definitely a sign that changes are coming.

If I were a max point holder, I would be pissed off and I would be thinking about cashing in my points.

Those with less than max points will probably welcome the change.

Montana Has that system

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Montana Has that system

I have a feeling that everyone will be going away from a preference point only system, at least for the premier species.

I mean, how can you get new guys in, if they have to pay $150 a year knowing that they will probably die before they have any chance to draw(except for the minimal chance that you have on the random draw)?

Personally, I MUCH prefer the Texas model. Yep, I pay for access but I don't have to draw ... EVER. And for the price I pay to hunt private land, I don't experience hunting pressure from an orange vest behind every tree and I know the other fellows who are hunting the same area.

As my wife says "there's a Jack for every Jill".

Makes me happy that we all don't love exactly the same thing.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
When I started this thread two years ago, there were people grumbling about changes that might come.....

From what I hear there is now a bill in the Wyoming legislature that would convert all preference points to bonus points which would be squared for the drawing. As I understand it, this may or may not pass, but it is definitely a sign that changes are coming.

If I were a max point holder, I would be pissed off and I would be thinking about cashing in my points.

Those with less than max points will probably welcome the change.

Say it ain’t so….

quote:

Personally, I MUCH prefer the Texas model.

Said Todd.

+1

PLUS ALL THE DIFFERENT EXOTICS AVAILABLE!
My son and a friend will be out for cow elk and maybe red deer hind later this March (after the regular deer season is over and some ranches are selling off overstock such as 2 or 3 Blackbuck for the normal price of one.) I do like to eat Black buck, but they are small.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
When I started this thread two years ago, there were people grumbling about changes that might come.....

From what I hear there is now a bill in the Wyoming legislature that would convert all preference points to bonus points which would be squared for the drawing. As I understand it, this may or may not pass, but it is definitely a sign that changes are coming.

If I were a max point holder, I would be pissed off and I would be thinking about cashing in my points.

Those with less than max points will probably welcome the change.

The proposal in Wyoming, IF it passes, will begin in either 2025 or 2027 (I’m hearing both implementation dates). It will mimic Nevada’s draw system. In essence, it will go to a weighted bonus point system where an applicants points are squared, with one point added to the squared number for that year’s application. As an example, my son and I each have 22 sheep points. Assuming we don’t draw before the change, we will have 25 points going into the 2025 draw. Upon application, we will each have 626 entries in the sheep drawing. 25x25+1=626. Someone with 10 points will have 101 entries, someone with 5 points will have 26 entries and someone with no points will have 1 entry. Everyone is eligible to draw, but my son and I will have much better odds of scoring a random number that aligns with where the draw will begin from.

Of all the states, I like Nevada’s model the best. You have a chance to draw every year and each successive year, your draw odds get exponentially better. No model is perfect, but some are a lot better than others. With Wyoming’s proposed change from preference to bonus points, we are trying to draw my son for a Shiras Moose tag before the proposed change would go into effect. He has 22 points, so has a decent chance of drawing the unit he’s applied for (he’s applied in one of the top units in the state, so tough draw). Once we draw his moose tag, we will then focus on the sheep tags. He’s 34 & I’m 63, so he has more time to draw than me, but we are both going to draw some great tags all over the west in next 10 years as we have piles of points for everything in Wyoming, Nevada, Arizona, Utah & California. Also Oregon, though it’s essentially wasted time for a non-resident there anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
...
I'm not aware of a single big game species in NA that's open to legal / sport hunting, that one cannot buy a hunt / tag for, and go hunting?

I applied for 4 species in CA just yesterday...it took me maybe 5 minutes from start to finish.

Did you use a service? I looked at CA procedures for drawings the other day, after an hour or so, I still don't know how the damn thing is supposed to work.

And then the after hunt stuff of sending them the skulls etc. is crazy.

No sir I didn't...I know exactly how CA works.

As a CA resident you have multiple draw opportunities available...including desert bighorn, tule elk, rocky elk or roosevelt elk, antelope, mule deer, etc.

If you are not at max points for said species you would go into the random draw for these species. If you really want to apply, tell me which species you are interested in - and I can send you a link and walk your through it in minutes via email.

+1 to what Aaron said. Once a person understands California’s system, it’s fast and easy to apply. Like in all states, the #1 requirement to draw is persistence and consistency. My son & I have drawn some great CA tags over the last 8 years, after not drawing a single limited entry tag for about 20 years. We’ve both drawn great deer tags, he drew pronghorn and, after 34 years of applying without ever missing a year, I drew a great Desert Bighorn tag and enjoyed one of the very best hunts I’ve ever been on.

Be consistent and apply every single year. You WILL get drawn eventually.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
The states game departments are whores for the money.

Government is too many open hands and never enough money. There is literally no end to the demands on the public purse, from all sides, for all reasons, each demand more sincerely made than the next. There are just as many whores outside of government as within it.

I don't like where the points systems have ended up, but that doesn't make the state game departments whores.

Our population is growing, hunting land is decreasing, supply and demand operate here too.

I quite the drawings when I saw what looked to me that every TV hunter or Nationally known hunter drew not just 1 but in some cases more than ! very coveted tags. I now just hunt mostly private, which I feel very fortunate too be able to do.

Here's something about Colorado resident and nonresident tags. I guess Colorado wants the extra money from the nonresidents.

https://publiclandjurisdiction...worse-than-colorado/

Points work in AZ… eventually. Wife just drew an early rifle bull tag with 20 points. Tough having to wait that long but even with point creep it does work. She drew in the bonus point pass as a resident. She also went to 29 antelope points this year because we only applied for a point. I didn't want the chance that we’d have both hunts on the same year. Rather dedicate the scouting time to one hunt. With those kind of points and the time invested waiting for the tag we’d rather enjoy each one. For sheep it’s an entirely different case. Unless you’re in the max point pool now or near it and still young. You’re only applying with the hope of drawing in the random pool. Myself, my wife, and a nephew have all drawn desert sheep here by playing the best odds. Still very lucky but being willing to play odds and not apply for areas that go completely to max point holders gives you that opportunity. Many people don’t understand the draw and apply for sheep tags they have zero chance at drawing.

quote:

Originally posted by Southwesthunter:
For sheep it’s an entirely different case. Unless you’re in the max point pool now or near it and still young. You’re only applying with the hope of drawing in the random pool. Myself, my wife, and a nephew have all drawn desert sheep here by playing the best odds.

Unlike for elk or pronghorn, 80% of the TOTAL sheep permits go to the 2nd draw, so the odds aren't as bad as they might seem. I drew my 1st choice in 2011 with 22 BPs.

I have a ton of opinion on this deal but most of them I'll keep to myself except the youth argument deal.

Some of you guys talk as though the youth cannot hunt without drawing a premium tag and that's just totally false!

Do I think a 12 year old kid "deserves" a sheep tag because how else could he possibly hunt, right? LMAO

I raised 5 kids who all hunted and still do to this day (except my son who left us way too soon to meet his maker) and NONE of them drew premium tags and we hunted all we could stand.

Also, some of you guys are forgetting attrition. The old dudes will either draw or die or quit hunting so there will be a chance for those who stay with it.

Lets assume that all point disappeared. Where will we be? I'll tell you: 1 in 300 odds instead of 1 in 600 odds. Yes, double better but not by a large enough mathematically margin to ever draw a tag BUT if dad would buy them points every year and actually apply, every year, then they might actually get a permit by the time they're old enough to appreciate the adventure.

Okay, I'll get off my box.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:


Also, some of you guys are forgetting attrition. The old dudes will either draw or die or quit hunting so there will be a chance for those who stay with it.

Zeke

I resemble that remark!

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
I have a ton of opinion on this deal but most of them I'll keep to myself except the youth argument deal.

Some of you guys talk as though the youth cannot hunt without drawing a premium tag and that's just totally false!

Do I think a 12 year old kid "deserves" a sheep tag because how else could he possibly hunt, right? LMAO

I raised 5 kids who all hunted and still do to this day (except my son who left us way too soon to meet his maker) and NONE of them drew premium tags and we hunted all we could stand.

Also, some of you guys are forgetting attrition. The old dudes will either draw or die or quit hunting so there will be a chance for those who stay with it.

Lets assume that all point disappeared. Where will we be? I'll tell you: 1 in 300 odds instead of 1 in 600 odds. Yes, double better but not by a large enough mathematically margin to ever draw a tag BUT if dad would buy them points every year and actually apply, every year, then they might actually get a permit by the time they're old enough to appreciate the adventure.

Okay, I'll get off my box.

Zeke

Great reply Zeke!

My and at least one of my kids will apply for several states and if one of us does not draw, we will hunt an over the counter hunt or buy a tag. All of us want great tags but that reality is long gone.

There can be great memories made on a cow elk hunt or a General Utah tag (maybe ha ha).

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
I have a ton of opinion on this deal but most of them I'll keep to myself except the youth argument deal.

Some of you guys talk as though the youth cannot hunt without drawing a premium tag and that's just totally false!

Do I think a 12 year old kid "deserves" a sheep tag because how else could he possibly hunt, right? LMAO

I raised 5 kids who all hunted and still do to this day (except my son who left us way too soon to meet his maker) and NONE of them drew premium tags and we hunted all we could stand.

Also, some of you guys are forgetting attrition. The old dudes will either draw or die or quit hunting so there will be a chance for those who stay with it.

Lets assume that all point disappeared. Where will we be? I'll tell you: 1 in 300 odds instead of 1 in 600 odds. Yes, double better but not by a large enough mathematically margin to ever draw a tag BUT if dad would buy them points every year and actually apply, every year, then they might actually get a permit by the time they're old enough to appreciate the adventure.

Okay, I'll get off my box.

Zeke

Great reply Zeke!

My and at least one of my kids will apply for several states and if one of us does not draw, we will hunt an over the counter hunt or buy a tag. All of us want great tags but that reality is long gone.

There can be great memories made on a cow elk hunt or a General Utah tag (maybe ha ha).

Yessir and add birds and small game to the mix for youth hunters. My sons-in-law are a perfect example of this. We've has some awesome whitetail doe and duck hunt combos. We will never forget them and we "drew" nothing.

WHEN the grandkids finally draw a premium tag, they will have enough experience to really appreciate how special and rare they are.

Now, draw that damn desert sheep tag of yours and reach out to me!!!!

Zeke

Where will be without a points program?

Same as Alaska, New Mexico and Idaho.

In states with huge populations like California and Arizona or states with huge numbers of hunter participation like Utah it will still suck.

But it will be possible.

A kid that can't hunt won't ever hunt.

An adult that has no chance of ever getting in on a points program because they didn't figure it out until they were in their 30's will never hunt.

I have points in Wyoming, Montana, and Arizona. I still hope points programs all end.

The concept of triple points, or doubling points is absolutely bullshit. It won't solve anything other than destroy any chance for a new hunter to ever have a chance to get into the field.

I don't remember ever signing a contract with any state wildlife agency on a points program that said I would be guaranteed a tag. I am pretty sure none of you did either.

We have to do something to ensure hunting stays available.

Limping points programs along just continues to destroy any chance of younger people joining and older hunters staying with it.

This has been well documented by Eastmans (as much as they are part of the problem) and Randy Newberg (ditto).

I'll add that the New Mexico and Idaho models actually work pretty well.

Idaho caters to bowhunters, similar to Arizona.

New Mexico caters to youth.

I can concur that anyone under 18 doesn't need a sheep, bison, moose, goat or ibex tag.

I think I have repeated this story before, but here goes:

When I was about 24 in the Navy I had a new recruit from Missouri that had killed a bighorn sheep in Colorado. It was his only big game animal. His cousin had drawn the tag, and he shot it party hunting on another part of the mountain as the two dads split up. His cousin tagged the sheep. This would have been in the 1990's, and party hunting was an ok thing in Missouri according to him at the time. He thought nothing of it. It was his only big game animal, and he wasn't interested in hunting again. The uncle had the sheep mounted in their living room.

So what was the point?

quote:

So what was the point?

Or so what is the point.

Or one can get Dam lucky like my Nephew In Idaho.

At 24yoa first year applying drew a big horn tag.

Shot a nice one.

DIY hunt with a couple of friends.

Just put in for a Montana como deer Lic and point.

They raised the point price from 50 to 100 dollars. You can apply with out buying the point. But when I have I did not draw.

They also added on a bunch of have to buy items .25 cent search and rescue fee. They call it a donation but it is mandatory. A 7.00 invasive species fee and others that I don't recall.

Even if the search and rescue fee was truly a donation I would pay it. Cheap insurance.

But go it a donation when it is mandatory.

I have draw on 1 point years Most of the time it takes two.

So Montana with just the 50 dollar point increased. They greatly increased the money they take in from non residents.

Just looked they well issue 59395 non resident deer elk lic.

So if each buys a preference point just from that the states extra money comes to $2,969,750.

Just to apply.

It is all about raising funds not about game management any more.

All of this just highlights the fact that there are way too many people and way too few resources.
And it is just going to keep getting worse. Here in Colorado in 2020 there were over 650,000 applications for limited licenses. In 2021 there were over 685,000 applications. If this keeps up I can see a day when all licenses, even small game and fishing, will become limited. I wish my kids could inherit my points when I die.
C.G.B.

quote:

A kid that can't hunt won't ever hunt.

An adult that has no chance of ever getting in on a points program because they didn't figure it out until they were in their 30's will never hunt.

This seems like a personal problem rather than a draw for a premium tag problem!

If a kid doesn't hunt, it's because dad or mom won't take them and has nothing to do with drawing a premium tag.

There are damn near countless tags that can be had for a youth hunter along with their guardian and that's not even counting small game and feathered critters they can hunt.

The last premium tag I drew was in 2015. Does anyone suppose I have not hunted big game and birds, a ton, since then?

Of course it's MUCH harder now that it takes $120+ to fill the tank!!!!!!! ...but it's still not because they have to live or die because of tag drawings.

Zeke

I hear what you are saying, I know that we tend to think of it as an investment.

But it has never been explained by the game departments to be so.

I spent 20 years in the military and the tags I am banking on in in several states rely on that access. After all I have been accumulating points and playing the game. Knowing that they could change their program allowing less access or preserving it for active duty only.

There was a program in Arizona that was active duty only, and now it is opened to all retirees. At some point it maybe all veterans.

I know those guys sitting on 25-30 points for sheep are hoping the problems stay the same. I gave up when Wyoming went to $100 a point, then $150 a point. Math doesn't support getting back into it at almost 50.

I think that some of you might have missed an important benefit of preference points that will be lost when/if states move away from preference points to bonus points(or bonus points squared or cubed): with preference points you can plan the timing of your hunts, but the randomness of a bonus point draw doesn’t allow for that type of flexibility.

To put it another way: if you have six for points, and a hunt is zone 142 requires 8 points, you know that you can focus on other hunts for a few years while you buy an annual preference point. Then, when you have enough points, and are ready to do the hunt, you put in for the tag and draw it. All the while you can do research and scout the zone. Also, because you know when you will be able to draw the tag, you can prioritize your scouting and even plan major life events around it. If you know that you will draw that rough country tag in 2-3 years, maybe you get that knee surgery now, knowing that you will have time to rehab, then you can do your hunt on a solid knee.

But with the randomness of a bonus point draw, you can’t do that. There is no telling when you will draw the tag. More points mean that you have a better chance of drawing, but that is no guarantee. You might have a bunch of points and not draw a relatively easy tag for a decade or even more. And in the mean time, you are having to put in to have a chance to draw. And that might possibly have you holding off on that knee surgery(or whatever) because you are worried that you might draw the tag this year and have the rehab time ruining the hunt you applied so long for. Or you hold off, then draw the tag and do the hunt on a bum knee.

That’s a simplification, and I’m overthinking it. But there is some truth to what I say.

In Wis. we have a true point system for bear tags. Same with wolves.

Everybody with less points does not get a chance until all those with more points draw.

Once you draw you move to the bottom of the list.

A person can actual time his hunt with in a year or two. You look at the number of points required to draw in a certain area.

Once you reach that and you go over you are fairly certain of drawing.

Any other type is just a shell game to get more money.

With our very limited elk tags it is a true lottery. Throw your name in the pot and hope for the best.

More changes: Wyoming votes to liming NR tags to 10%.

https://blog.eastmans.com/wyom...oull-read-this-year/

I would rather see a true lottery.

Throw your name it hope for the best.