Well, I should have shot a doe opening day. I stopped seeing them 2 weeks in to the season. I was beginning to think no venison this year. All the bucks I saw were under 13" spread. Finally, I saw this goofy bastard. I glassed him for about 10 minutes trying to make sure the one antler was unbranched. It was very hard to see. Finally, I was able to confirm and dropped him where he stood with my 257R. I've never been so excited to shoot a little dink. I was beginning to think no venison this year. Next year, I will just shoot doe early in the season to take the pressure off.

Did you get that off your new place Scott?

Yes, sure did.

More Congratulations in order for obtaining that property.

Thanks CW. I also shot a nice bobcat off the property. It's posted in the varmint forum.

This is what makes this site great. I dont agree with CHC on calliber selection but agree with him on the AR's. There are some people who only get excited when they see a real big deer. I personally get buck fever when ever I see a deer, close, far, big, little, it doesnt matter, I get the raised pulse real fast. If I see a 6pt and have a tag, i want the meat. I dont want to let him walk till next year, i want his rump in my freezer now. I don't think it is fair to say, he is not old enough, you cant shoot him, you have to wait. If the deer heard is that out of wack, limit the taking of all bucks. I am afraid that in 15 years we will see darwinism at work and the AR counties will end up with 6.5 year old, 12 inch deer running all over the place. similar to what I have seen in fishing. I have never caught a bass over 13.5 inches. One day, maybe, but not yet. We have a strain of deer in concho county that does not get outside the ears. I have 3 8's on the wall, shot over the past 20 years that are within 5 inches score from each other. They all look alike. The age, 2.5, 3.5, and 6.5. We also have big horned deer but when they top 8 points they get shot and the dink 8's continue to breed.

I sure admire a man that can stand (alone)for his principles and beliefs. That thread was educational. Heal soon Chc. A.R needs guys like you.jc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
LWD, the fact of the matter is, There Is No One Single Simple Plan That Will Work State Wide In Texas, that is why I point out the failings of the AR's.

Not every region, county or even areas in counties are experiencing the same situations concerning the deer herd state wide.

In the Dakota's, they are trying a system called Earn A Buck, a hunter has to shoot and check in at a check station two does Before they can get a buck tag.

Somehow I missed this whole fiasco but I have to correct you on the above statement. The Dakotas are not trying a earn a buck system whatsoever. Never heard of that around here anyway.

That neck and head are awfully clean and the corn looks a little bloodied...........why waste any of that tender meat.

I own land and also have routinely hunted commercial ranches. I like the practices employed by said ranches. Only mature bucks are shot- 5 1/2 y/o plus. Talk about teaching you patience-like a fn monastery in Tibet.

I don't think the AR go far enough. But there is no way to properly enforce the shooting of mature bucks.

Last 2 years my father in law shot some legal 3 1/2- 4 1/2 year old deer that really could have used 2 more years of growth on them. For a person who's hunted 50+ years and prolly shot more deer than most people on this site even that ol' fart has absolutely no clue about aging a deer. And you expect bubba and his chilrin to age em....I don't think so.

"Oh they were just small bodied deer." Well, yes they are small bodied, but that's because they were only 3 1/2 fn years old!!!!!

I've noticed a good increase in the number of bucks since the AR came into effect. Like all gov't plans there are some flaws. There needs to be a provision about shooting a
"post mature" buck on the decline. They aren't gonna breed your does, but they do need killing. Or even a clearly mature deer who just ain't got it, but the last thing you need is to give some trigger hungry delta bravo the excuse to shoot a basket horned deer.

Now a good game warden will know what a mature buck looks like, and frankly oughtta let you slide, as they should.

But on the whole, AR do work.

quote:

Somehow I missed this whole fiasco but I have to correct you on the above statement. The Dakotas are not trying a earn a buck system whatsoever. Never heard of that around here anyway.

Just as you claim to have never heard of it, I merely stated what I had heard. From the folks I heard it from they were trying it only in certain management units. Never heard how long they tried it or any results, but did hear that it was either being done or considered. Just because you never heard of it does not mean that it did not take place.

FMC, the problem with your scenario, is that not ALL hunters are after the same thing. ON MLD lands in countie with AR's, bucks that are definetly genetically inferior can be culled.

ON non-MLD lands in those same counties,there is no provision for culling those inferior bucks, and those bucks will and do breed.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just as you claim to have never heard of it, I merely stated what I had heard. From the folks I heard it from they were trying it only in certain management units. Never heard how long they tried it or any results, but did hear that it was either being done or considered. Just because you never heard of it does not mean that it did not take place.

Several states either have or had a variation of an Earn A Buck season in place. Just a couple I found; there may be others as well.

Virgina - 2011:

Earn a Buck (EAB)
Earn a buck areas include all private lands in the counties (including private lands in the cities and towns within) of Bedford, Clarke, Fairfax, Fauquier, Franklin, Frederick, Loudoun, Patrick, Prince William, Roanoke, Shenandoah, and Warren. In EAB areas at least one antlerless deer must be taken on private lands in an EAB area before the second antlered deer of the license year may be taken on private lands in an EAB area. Furthermore, at least two antlerless deer must have been taken on private lands in an EAB area before the third antlered deer of the license year may be taken on private lands in an EAB area. For more information go to the Earn a Buck (EAB) Questions & Answers section.


From the Nebraska 2011 regs:

Deer - Earn-a-Buck November Firearm Nov. 12 - 22

Another strategy is Earn-a-Buck, which is required for the Blue Northwest, Blue Southeast, Elkhorn, Missouri, and Wahoo units.

Wisconsin also HAD one.


************
Wisconsin legislature votes to repeal earn a buck program

The Associated Press Rapid City Journal
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 2:26 pm

MADISON, Wis. -- The Wisconsin law requiring hunters in certain areas to kill an antlerless deer before they bag a buck would be repealed under a bill passed by the state Assembly on Tuesday.

The bill also generally prohibits any gun seasons ahead of the traditional November hunt, with some exceptions for youth, mentored and disabled hunts and in chronic wasting disease zones.

The bill passed on a bipartisan 64-33 vote. It previously passed the Senate and now heads to Gov. Scott Walker for his consideration. He supported doing away with the so-called earn a buck program during the campaign last year and was expected to sign the bill into law.

Hunters have long complained about early gun hunting seasons and earn a buck, which they said forces them to pass up trophy kills.

Frustration boiled over in 2009 after two years of anemic November hunts. Hunters complained that the Department of Natural Resources overestimated the deer population for years, leading to restrictions like earn a buck that they say have devastated the herd and put the future of their sport in jeopardy.

The bill passed despite objections from some Democrats, foresters and conservation groups that had testified in support of earn a buck saying it's needed to help to control the herd and protect trees and other wildlife.

"This bill will almost certainly will hurt the forest industry," said Assembly Minority Leader Peter Barca, D-Kenosha. "It almost certainly will hurt agriculture."

He and other Democratic opponents argued for delaying doing away with earn a buck to give a recently hired expert on deer more time to assess the situation in Wisconsin and report back to the governor.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Somehow I missed this whole fiasco but I have to correct you on the above statement. The Dakotas are not trying a earn a buck system whatsoever. Never heard of that around here anyway.

Just as you claim to have never heard of it, I merely stated what I had heard. From the folks I heard it from they were trying it only in certain management units. Never heard how long they tried it or any results, but did hear that it was either being done or considered. Just because you never heard of it does not mean that it did not take place.

And just because you heard it means it did take place. What a joke.

Scott,

That will be a special deer-the first from your land. I envy you. Could you have shot a doe opening day? In our county, does are only for four days around Thanksgiving. That, along with the AR makes it a bit tough, especially for meat hunters. With the wind blowing 30+ mph that weekend, I am not sure a lot of does were shot.
This has been an interesting thread. Both sides have valid points, and everyone agrees that AR's aren't a cure all. I wonder why they don't just put the whole state under AR? Having one county on and the next one off (or even dividing counties) can be confusing. If they want to grow the age of the deer, why not just make it statewide so one group doesn't feel they are getting "hit" harder than the rest of the state (east Texas)? Just more food for thought.

True. However, I did not want to add yet one more variable into the discussion.

And no, I haven't gone to my local cooperative for said doe/permits, etc.

The AR has helped out the counties where all the yahoos shoot anything with an antler. My father in law remembers the days where there were no deer because of that. One story
was "How many deer have you shot in one day?" "Five. Six bucks came out in a line. Managed to get five, one got away........"

Yeah, turds like that need to go without shooting a buck.

It may not be perfect, but I think it does serve it's purpose.

quote:

And just because you heard it means it did take place. What a joke.

And just because you did not hear of it means it never happened or was never considered? That is not a joke that is arrogance.

quote:

The AR has helped out the counties where all the yahoos shoot anything with an antler. My father in law remembers the days where there were no deer because of that. One story
was "How many deer have you shot in one day?" "Five. Six bucks came out in a line. Managed to get five, one got away........"

YEs, I can remember the days when there were no or very few deer in many areas, but it wasn't because they were being shot, it was becauser there was not enough habitat for them. I remember when I first started deer hunting here in Young county, the limit was 1 buck and a hunter was lucky if he saw a buck during the season.

That was in 1970, now the limit on deer in Young county is 5 per season. I have said, that the AR's, while working in some areas are not the solution for all areas and proper management practices by landowners/lease hunters is a better option.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

OK, I'll bite, what is a SMFCS?

You think your so knowledgable, figure it out for yourself.

I would prefer to have you spell it out for me so I know I'm not missing something

Crazy,

Since this thread has resurfaces I am still wondering what these acronyms mean.

These are the acronyms I was wondering about...

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
your not really adding anything to the discussion YDB

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
you should not have any problem with me calling you a SMFCS.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Drummond TAFFAARD

Looking forward to your reply

Drummond

YDB = You Dumb Butt, SMFCS = Smart Mouth F_cking Chicken Shit, and TAFFARD, just looked good when I typed it, and means abolutely nothing.

Now, explain to me why my opposition to the restrictions as a blanket fix all, based on what I have been experiencing in slightly over 40 years worth of deer hunting, all of it in field experience, is so wrong or so important?

Now I am waiting for your reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
YDB = You Dumb Butt, SMFCS = Smart Mouth F_cking Chicken Shit, and TAFFARD, just looked good when I typed it, and means abolutely nothing.

Now, explain to me why my opposition to the restrictions as a blanket fix all, based on what I have been experiencing in slightly over 40 years worth of deer hunting, all of it in field experience, is so wrong or so important?

Now I am waiting for your reply.

Classy

I never said that I was for or against antler restrictions. I disagreed with you that the antler restrictions themselves made lease costs go up. I asked for you to provide facts that substantiate your claims and you couldnt provide them. You resorted to telling me that I called you a liar, which I NEVER did and all you could come up with was that you've hunted deer there for 40 years.

Heres my thing Crazy, whether you are for or against these restrictions, if your going to make a claim that the rising cost if hunting in your area is a direct result of these restrictions I like to see factual evidence to substantiate these claims. "Cause I said so" doesnt really work.

Also, I NEVER called you a liar, just let you know that I disagreed with you on the reason the cost of a lease was going up. There are so many variables, supply and demand, economy, drough etc.. Its iresponsible to put the blame squarely on the antler restrictions themselves.

Until you provide these facts all you'll have is an opinion and thats fine but others can have a different opinion and it doesnt make anybody a liar.

The whole AR issue is one that polarizes people and they stop being objective. I am as guilty of that as anyone, probably more so. You are absolutely correct in that I cannot actually prove that the AR's drove up lease prices in this area, but I am not a big believer in coincidence either. After the AR's went into effect, there was an increase in per gun lease fees. Maybe it was because of other factors and I just assumed it was due in part or whole to the implementation of the AR's. As you said however I cannot prove my statement one way or the other.

Learning how to argue an issue and not let emotions and anger creep in is something I have a problem with, hopefully I will one day be better able to discuss such issues without dropping off into the more adolescent manner of trying to make a point. It certainly does no one any good and only adds to having such issues not be discussed in a reasonable manner where everyone involved can express their opinion without having things break down into a pissing match.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The whole AR issue is one that polarizes people and they stop being objective. I am as guilty of that as anyone, probably more so. You are absolutely correct in that I cannot actually prove that the AR's drove up lease prices in this area, but I am not a big believer in coincidence either. After the AR's went into effect, there was an increase in per gun lease fees. Maybe it was because of other factors and I just assumed it was due in part or whole to the implementation of the AR's. As you said however I cannot prove my statement one way or the other.

Learning how to argue an issue and not let emotions and anger creep in is something I have a problem with, hopefully I will one day be better able to discuss such issues without dropping off into the more adolescent manner of trying to make a point. It certainly does no one any good and only adds to having such issues not be discussed in a reasonable manner where everyone involved can express their opinion without having things break down into a pissing match.

Crazy,

I sincerely appreciate that response! For the record, I am not a fan of any "restrictions".

I wish you a speedy recovery and I hope you are able to make it out to spend some time in the outdoors

Thanks for the sentiment, being cooped up in the house when so much hunting is avaiable is really hard. I was fortunate enough that the accident occured here in town and not out in one of the pastures, and am especially thankful that it looks like I will not lose that arm.

Well, I've stated that I have mixed feelings about the antler restrictions, but sometimes inferior bucks need to be culled. Here is a buck we have on camera for 3 years. He'll die of old age and never be legal.

Those pictures are prime evidence why the AR's will come back to bite TP&W in the ass. Too many inferior bucks left to breed and pass those inferior genetics along.

In the third picture, the buck in the background was taken. 4 1/2 yrs old with only 14" inside spread. The antlers were INSIDE the ears at 14". Big buck....small antlers.

The only thing positive that I can say regarding the AR is that I saw more bucks this year than does.....but not one legal shooter.

saskatchewan had or maybe still has the shoot 2 does get a buck tag program for residents in some areas (CWD herd reduction areas) I am not familiar with ND having this program and I spend quite a bit of time up there.

i never heard for a fact that north or south Daklota instituted the "earn a buck" program,. but it was discussed, and from what I heard, it was not going to be a state wide program.

I don't post much anymore, but I want to chime in on this. We hunt in one of the first counties (Austin, Washington, Fayette, Colorado, et cetera) that went under antler restrictions around the year 2000. We hunt a small tract of land that is surrounded by numerous small tracts, but it is very thickly wooded.

In the 80's and 90's - we were lucky to see a single buck the entire season of hard hunting. Spike, forkhorn you name it. We did everythign with food plots, supplemental feeding, and it helped, but it was still very very hard hunting. We finally stopped hunting on the family land and hunted a lease out in the Southern Hill Country for a three or four years.

Living in North Texas, the drive was just too far for me at 7 hours each way with a young family to the lease and I opted to hunt closer to home. My father decided to give it a try hunting the family property. Opening morning after 4 years of no hunting he killed a massive 9 pt - 14" tines, 7" browtines. The state check station aged the buck at 5.5 years old. I hunted with him the next year and we killed a 18" 8pt 4.5years old that was very heavy. The next year he killed a 16" 10pt and I took a 16" 8pt.

My kids started hunting and they love hunting there. It is close to their grandparents house, and we see 20+ deer on a sitting of which 1/2 are bucks. Most are young 6's, 8's, and spikes. The boys have all shot 3.5 to 5.5 year old bucks and this year we killed a 7.5 year old we had been after for three years. We are not picky for them, if the deer is outside the ears we let them shoot them if they want too. They get to see bucks running does, 20+ scrapes are on our property and we have scrape lines that we watch bucks check. Rubs everywhere now all by letting the little guys get a little age on them.

Prior to antler restrictions our buck to doe ratio had to be 15 or 16 to 1, we had doe tags for a year or two and it was a war zone. We used to hear 50+ shots every sitting - now openign morning we heard 4, youth season 2 shots all weekend.


The rut in our area used to start in Mid October (why - not enough bucks to breed the does). Now it is early November and it is a hard, fast, furious rut. Bucks cruising for about two weeks and then the Bucks running does everywhere for four or five days and then it is over until the 2nd cycle in late november/ early december. This is healthy for the herd, the deer survival and recovery of the animals. Prolonged ruts put alot of stress on the deer who succumb to disease more than anything else.

Is this a perfect system no way? But tell me what is? How can the state create a system that is equitable for all persons?

The purpose of the system is to increase success on a 3.5 year old deer and for the hunters to have a quality experience. This is not about growing trophy deer - yes some ranches, many in fact act in this way and pass on the expenses to the hunters.

Many of you need to read about the evolution of a hunter. I don't need to shoot a deer to be happy, I enjoy the experience now and get a great deal of satisfaction watching the excitement of my kids when they hunt. The heavy breathing, the sparkle in their eyes, the way the run down the trail to their animal, et cetera. For me it is not about killing the biggest animal (sure I would like too), but it is the total experience and watching the animals act in their native habitat like they should.

In our counties, AR has been widely accepted and promoted by over 90% of the hunters surveyed. There will always be detractors in every decision by the government, but in my opinion they are definately moving in the right direction on this one!

Is this a perfect system no way? But tell me what is? How can the state create a system that is equitable for all persons?

That right there is why I and some other people have a problem with the AR's, It is not a perfect system, and in reality there is No perfect management system for a state as large and diversified as Texas.

Are the AR's working/do the AR' work, yes in some areas, but they are not a blanket solution.

There are issues that the AR's do not address:

1. Obvious cull bucks. My boss manages approximately 20K acres in Young and Archer counties and we run multiple game cams thruout the year. he has been managing this land since 2000. Prior to the implementation of the AR's, the mangament protocol was 1 mature buck=trophy buck, 1 cull/management buck and the limit of does.

Now with the AR's, only 1 mature trophy buck and 1 spike can be taken. We have 2,3 and 4 or more years worth of pictures of 5,6 and more point bucks, that are mature, but becaue they will never reach Lucky Number 13, they can not be removed, so they keep on breeding and producing little clone of themselves.

2. On properties without a management program in place, every buck that reaches Lucky number 13 is killed on the spot, regardless of age, which brings ue to number 3.

3. Because Texas is 90+% private land, Land Owners/lease managers/leasees can not be forced to establish sound/reasonable management programs on their property, the solution was the arbitrary implementation of the AR's, but because the TP&W field biologists are spread pretty thin the decision in some cases was made with inaccurate/incomplete or biased data/population estimates.

I killed my first deer in 1970 in Young county about 25 miles from where I am setting typing this, and the limit was 1 deer, buck only and you were lucky if you saw a buck. Now, 41 years later, we have the Ar's and the limit is 5 deer but only 1 or 2 can be bucks. The county neighboring us on the west, also went to the 5 deer limit but didn't go under the AR's. I have never known imaginary boiundary lines to hinder game movement.

If a peron is happy with the AR's good for them. If they feel that they are working for them in their situation, comngratulations. For me, I think they are not going to achieve what they were designed to on a broad scale, in some areas/regions they may help, hope they do, but just do not believe that there is a one size fits all deer management plan for Texas.