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One of Us |
Don't act like I sent you a PM asking you to be my buddy. I just wanted to keep this crap off the forum and see if you would tell me what those acronyms meant. If they were derogatory I didn't want to muck up this thread any more than it already is. Here is my pm to you for others to see...
If your going to call people names at least be man enough to actually spell it out. | |||
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The topic is Antler/Buck Restrictions in Texas. Not who can call whom the worst or most deragatory names. Use your imagination as far as the acronyms go, I am sure that you and most people know what they meant so that worked out just as well as spelling them out. 505, no, I don't binge drink, never have, don't intend to start now, again, pm's or accusations about my personal life have nothing to do with the fact that I am not a fan or the AR's and don't feel that they were warranted in the area I am most familiar with. I have openly and honestly stated my opinion about the AR's and the effects that I have noticed since they were implemented in this area. If you like the AR's and are happy with the results you are seeing, Good For You. I am not a fan of the AR's and I am not a crowd of one on that. Drummond TAFFAARD. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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ITYWTOWYCTD. | |||
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the above is an acronym for
slow down, I am trying to figure out TAFFAARD now. | |||
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No one wins anything on an internet forum. It is just a battle of opinions and the only winners are the ones that don't get involved. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Funny thing is, I am really not for or against antler restrictions, I just disagreed with Crazy that the restrictions themselves are causing leases to become more expensive. Crazy, I'm not going to lower myself to the level of making people guess silly little acronyms. It's childish but that's not surprising at all, I looked at your website and it looks like it was put together by a 2nd grader. Shame on me for expecting more from you | |||
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Thanks for looking at my site and having such high praise. I will be sure and pass that info along to the folks that book hunts with me. One thing, why is it that someone supposedly intelligent as you are wants to belittle themselves by attacking another persons business especially when you have no actual first hand knowledge of anything about me. That is the mark of a truly pathetic small minded individual. My website, my guide business had nothing what so ever to do with the discussion concerning AR's. Disagreeing with a person is one thing as long as it concerns the topic at hand. Making remarks about something a person does that is not a part of the discussion shows the pettiness of an arrogant egotistical individual. I stillmaintain thayt the implementing of the AR's in this area had an effect on lease prices and I still do not believe that they were necessary for this area, due to the managment programs already in use. If simply posting a few letters of the alphabet bothers your little 5 year old girl feelings that much, grow up. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazy, I first hunted in North Central Texas in 1962. My family has owned ranch land there since 1875. My grandfather was born in 1907 and said he never saw either a deer or an armadillo until he was grown. The paper man that threw the Star-Telegram hit first buck I had ever seen in that area and the same fall I shot the first one I saw while hunting a leased place. The lady that my grandfather lease the grazing rights from kept the place the next year because she could get more money from hunting than from grazing. The next year I shot another buck on my grandfather's place and the year after that I had no place to hunt. He leased it to more city hunters. Since then the cost of deer leases has been going up at an accelerated pace over most of the state as far as I can tell. Some of it is really stupid and it has nothing to do with the antler laws. Rather the antler laws have changed with the input of trophy hunters. Remember the Texas Big Game awards? I had all of that data and then Texas Parks and Wildlife quit publishing it because people were getting data the hunters and land owners did not want to share. I am sure the areas with the biggest deer sky rocketed in price. On of AR's very own liars in residence advertised a place in Newcastle that he claimed was yielding bucks that averaged 140 BC. With the commercialization of trophy deer hunting in a state with a large population with NO public property you are going to see lease prices continue to climb. BTW the deer did not die off due to drought. The skin flint penny pinching locals killed and ate anything they could until the deer and turkey were exterminated. | |||
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Good post, but in the 50,s there was a major die off during the drought that hit most of the state. That is a fact. Yes prices have been increasing and as I stated in the area I am most familiar with there wa an increase when the AR's were put in effect. Maybe it was a coincidence but I don't think so. Yes during the early 60's and 70's there was a lot of poaching taking place, state wide, I admit to doing some of it myself. But the deer and turkey never were exterminated, because if they had been we would not have any now. If I remember correctly the white tail population of Texas in 1970 was less that 2 million animals state wide, and many areas did not have deer. The state wide population now is 4 million plus, it would not be that way if the animals had been exterminated. Management of white tail also changed signifigantly when All counties went under the jurisdiction of TP&W and that did not take place until the late 70's or early 80's. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I agree with a lot of what you say, some of it I have seen from a different standpoint. I agree that the trophy hunting segment of our population, and organizations like Texas Trophy Hunters Association, Buck Masters and Quality Deer Management Association, have all played a major role in what has happened and TP&W has went along with most of it. I do not see that changing, too much money involved. I still stand behind my original statement that when the AR's were instituted lease prices increased that year and I do not believe it was a coincident. For a few years back in the mid to late 90's there were some bucks taken around Newcastle that did go in the 140's, but as the deer herd increased and the price of leases continued to escalate, the numbers of those good bucks declined, or rather the number of that sized buck being killed, declined as more people got to relying more and more on hunting from blinds and stands watching a feeder, and little or no time finding trails and travel corridors and watching those. There are still bucks that size in that area, it is just a case that now, the only folks that know they were killed are the hunter and the folks that hunt that same lease. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Not to be argumentative, but you are just giving your opinions on stuff like others on various threads and when you have nothing to back yourself up other than "I say so" because I'm 61, yadayadayada, then you are no more correct than drummond or anyone else that debates a subject. Also for a person in their 60s like I also am I have to say that your name calling and use of all these letters is so damn childish that I'm surprised that anyone is even responding because it's hard to take you serious when you are as condescending as you are. Some would call you a pompous ass for continuing on the way you are and thinking you are the only one with a correct assessment of what is being debated here on this thread. | |||
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Maybe if you will go back thru the whole thread, you will see why I started using the acronyms. The only reason I list my age, is because my opinions are based on the experiences I have personally had during that time. My opinions are just that, and I do not ask anyone including you to agree with them. But, I do not appreciate anyone, including you calling me a liar, when I say I have experienced something. Whether you have experienced it or not, that is your problem not mine. Talk about someone being a pompous ass, you are basically doing just exactly what these other folks are doing, calling me a liatr and stating that I have not experienced what I state that I have. You do not know me, have never hunted with me and have probably never hunted the areas I am describing. Since you are my age I will spell things out in a manner you can clearly and concisely comprehend. You pompous son of a bitch, I just give my opinions based on what I have actually experienced. I do not ask for anyone to agree with them or even read them dick face. I don't nor ever have claimed to be an expert or the final authority on anything piss brains, I am just giving my opinion on a subject like everyone else. Don't like my opinions, put me on you ignore list ass wipe. I hope that is a little easier for you to read and understand shit for brains. If people with any sense at all would either just not respond, or ignore the thread, it would have been 3 pages shorter. Your not my Daddy, don't act like you are. The way you act and write, a person should not express an opinion on something if it goes against popular thought, that is  Have a nice day doofus!!! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Nobody, including myself, has called you a liar or said you haven't experienced what you have, and if your last post doesn't more than back up what I said, then nothing will!!! What an asshole!!! If anybody responds to this guy's posts from now on, they are as goofy as he is!!! PS: FYI I've hunted all over Texas for many years, so stick those BS flags where the sun don't shine!!! | |||
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At the risk of being misconstured, by either party, (Top Gun or CHC) I started to take Topgun 30-06 to task for being a "newbie" and flaming one of our longtime, resident (his words not mine) azzholes, but then I looked and saw, that to my relief, he had 25 posts under his moniker, and thus was "one of us". So with that in mind, flame on bro'!   GWB | |||
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 Whew, what a relief, LOL! 1 or 1000 posts, I calls em as I sees em and I see an asshole posting BS flags | |||
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Well you are at least smart enough to see that I am an asshole, and dip wad, I never claimed being anything different. Before you waltzed your pompous ass into his discussion, you had evidenmtly read wha was going on and you were still stupid enough to get involved, Who Is The Real Idiot Here? Forums such as this one are places where people can share information, opinions, experience and advice. No one forces anyone to read, look at or agree with anything anyone says. I just give my opinions based on my experiences, if you or another poppin jay like you believes that I have not had those experiences, that is your damn perogative. But until you or any other person can prove that I have not experienced the things I say I have, don't pontificate to me about how wrong I am. I do not have to state my opinions in terms approved by you or anyone else, that is the beauty about the AR, you can either try to be civil when responding to someone and if that does not work you can explain things in simple to understand terms. One more point, Find the ignore feature and learn how to use it! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Man, if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black, LOL! You evidentally lack reading comprehension, so Read This SLOWLY!!! Nobody is calling you a liar or saying you haven't experienced everything you say. We are saying that what you have experienced does not mean squat as far as what you then claim the experiences translate into (cause and effect---ever heard of that?) Without actual proven statistics to back yourself up, all we are saying is that your opinion isn't any better than those who feel you are wrong, no more no less, and there is no reason to go on rants like you do just because people might disagree with what you feel your experiences translate into. Please try to digest what we have all been trying to tell you and stop with the BS flags  | |||
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At no point have I stated that I am right and everyone else is wrong with my opinions. Somethings that people experience simply can not be physically proven or documented. Even if it could, in many circumstances people would still say it did not happen or the evidence was manufactured. The problem you can not seem to wrap any brain cells around, is that I never said anyone was wrong, I merely stated my opinion that the implementation of the AR's in the area I am most familiar with, did generate a price increase per gun on the leases. I also stated that I do not believe that increase was simply coincedental. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are yours, but if the best you and some of these other artists can come up with is wanting me to try and provide some type of proof to your accusations over an internet forum, that would be like accusing someone you don't even know of burning down their house for the insurance money!A person can have an opinion based on their experiences, asuch as with the effects or lack there of of the AR's in any given area and they do not have to provide proof. I believe in God, but I damn sure can not prove he exists to a non-believer. When you or anyone else starts telling people whether openl or thru innuendo that they really have not experienced what they say they have, that only makes you look like a fool, especially when you have never met that person or actually know one thing about them. This discussion was started about antler restrictions in Texas. From the start, I stated my opinion about them in the area I am most familiar with, I also stated several times that if someone/anyone is hunting in an area with the AR's and are satisfied with the results they are seeing that is great, more power to them. By merely stating why I don't like them in the area I hunt and the various aspects of what their implementation brought about I have been repeatedly told that I do not know what I am talking about. I do not know or care about ass suckers like you, but around where I grew up and live, telling someone they don't know what thwey are talking about is damn sure calling them a liar. Also, it seems like your the person claiming: , yet here yu are still running your mouth off. Now if you want to discuss the merits of the Antler Restictions in Texas and their worth or lack there of, please do so. If all you want to do is throw around that is your priveledge, but for a pompous ass that thinks I am such a POS why in the hell are you still responding. An intelligent person would either get a life, put me on their ignore list or move on to another topic area.What's wrong, get kicked off another forum somewhere and decide to come over here and stir the pot? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I can't offer anything for the Texas antler restriction debate, nor do I want to. I'm in no mood to push anyones crazy button. I can say that Missouri started a pilot program in 2004 with mostly counties north of the Missouri River. This new law stated that no buck could he "taken" without having a minimum of 4 point on at least one side of 1" or more. The data has since been debated back and forth as some say "yes" and others say "No" but as far as the ground that I hunt on I see a big difference in quality of bucks. I am now forced by law to not kill a buck with less than 4 points on one side. This has enabled me to legally let a buck walk then in time I have seen a better deer. So the law has helped me be more patient/selective. In years past I would have shot the smaller buck and not had a buck tag later. Missouri also offers a very liberal doe harvest.....unlimited in many areas. This in its self trumps the guy that says "I'm a meat hunter I don’t care about horns" Missouri Dept. Of Conservation then answers to that "kill more doe's then" I honestly think the Missouri antler restriction is to get bigger bucks. Missouri is the "red headed step child" of Kansas, Iowa, and Illinois when big buck talk is on TV and news print and I really have to think MDOC wants that to change. The reason....is license fees. Missouri is yearly raising the out-of-state price and my feeling is that they have a goal of matching the big 3 whitetail states in license price. Just my 2 cents......and it's not worth a dime!! ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Back the few times I hunted in Nebraska, twice in the Sandhills area and twice up in the Pine Ridge area, I saw lots of good bucks. Have not had a chance to go back in quite a few years, but at that time their general gun season was only 9 days and their regs were that a buck had to have at least a 6 inch hardened antler to be legal. That does not sound real great for management purposes. The deal is or was, there were only a limited number of tags available in any unit. In the Sand Hills I hunted on a private ranch that had been doing some quality management and limiting the number of hunters. In the Pine Ridge it was on Public Land around Crawford/Fort Robinson. The first hunt me and my former hunting partner made up there, on opening morning he killed a white tail buck that grossed 140+. So much of it depends on the hunting pressure in an area or region and getting folks to use some judgement before pulling the trigger. If a person is a "real" meat hunter and they can legally kill a truck load of does, unless the buck is a monster,let the bucks walk and shoot the does. Shooting a little buck, unless it is an obvious cull type animal, mature deer with a small or messed up rack, just to say you shot a buck is not all that special. There are some management techniques that do work, but none of them will work in all areas the same way. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Amen to that. LWD | |||
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So to summarize the thread, Antler Restrictions are not perfect but most have seen good results from them. CH is not in favor of them and believes they've driven up the price of leases in his area. The most import thing I learned is I would not want to be on a long car drive with Crazy Horse and Gato in the same car.  | |||
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From what I have seen, and read I think they are a good idea. My thoughts are, if you want to shoot a BIG buck, you need to let them grow for a few years. If you want deer meat, to eat, shoot a doe or two or three... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Well Scott, being with one or the other might not be so bad. As I have said from the start,or at least tried to say/point out, is that they are not a cure all panacea for the problems(?), I question whether some of the areas were actually having a problem, when the AR's were implemented. For the folks that are in favor of them or are actually seeing a difference on the positive side, that is great. Not everyone is seeing positive results, especially in the areas where there was not really a problem, areas where the land owners/Lease Managers were already doing a good job of controlling what was being killed off the properties. There are still areas, south east Texas especially where there are still problems. Yes people are seeing more and better bucks, biut for some reason their white tail does do not seem to be increasing. With 4 million or more white tails in the state, I have a hard time understanding how areas that are traditional, long time white tail habitat are still highly limited in the number of does that can be killed, while areas where deer were uncommon to rare 30 to 40 years ago, now have deer populations that not only allow season long hunting of does but also have special 2 week late seasons to try and control overall numbers and allowing meat hunters the ability if they want to to kill 5 does per person. scott in your case on your property, you will just have to see it affects you. You may be happy with them, you may not. The thing that needs to be kept in mind, is not all of us hunt for the same reasons, and not all of us place the same value on horns or meat. Best of Luck with your place I am sure you will enjoy it and make the best and most of it.  Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Thanks Crazy Horse, I'm just excited to finally own a little land where I can hunt. My first year out there will be exciting even if I don't see a deer. I don't mind hanging out with friends and spending some quality time in the woods with my favorite rifles. I look forward to just getting out of the city and spending time in nature. At night, sit around the cabin enjoying a nip of Wild Turkey 101 or Dickles #12. | |||
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If more people had that attitude toward hunting the anti's would not have the ammunition to use against us to try and kill our sport. The true definition of a Trophy lies with in the mind/heart/spirit of the hunter that killed it, not the concensus of the Peanut Gallery. Best Of Luck, look forward to seeing pictures on how your first season is going. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Information has leaked out from some meetings that have been taking place between TP&W an some interested/concerned hunting groups, and new regulations are being evaluated for future implementation, possibly state wide. While the AR's have met with mixed feelings and successes during their implementation period, a new set of regs is being considered. Instead of continueing with the 13 I.S. minimum, a "Slot Limit" is being proposed. Under these new regs, only bucks 13 inches Inside Spread up to 16 inches Inside Spread will be legal. Bucks wider than 16 inches inside spread will only be legal with a special Trophy Buck Only permit, that must be purchased seperately from the regular hunting license. It is proposed that the Trophy Buck Only permit will cost Texas Residents $125.00 and Non-residents $500.00. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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CHC, I posted earlier in favor of the restrictions. But there are some problems if folks want to try to manage (cull) their animals. We have had a deer on our game cams that is now at least 3 years old, is under 13 inchs wide and is at least 15 inches tall (as of last year). We have a running joke in camp these past recent years on which hunter is going to say "enough is enough" and tag him. Never follow a bad move with a stupid move. | |||
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This is one of those instances where I have been misunderstood before. We have had several discussions about poaching on these forums and I am usually hated for my responses. I have tried to show in rare cases of necessity or because of unusual management purposes I have little problem with poaching. First of all if you have a deer that is at least three wait till you think he is at least five. If he still isn't 13 inches wide shoot him anyway and eat the evidence.  | |||
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While I was/am one of the ones that gave STU grief over his comments on poaching, I partially agree with him on his assessment, except, and this is from experience, it would be better to take that buck out at 3 instead of waiting till he is 5. Reason being at 3.5 and until he is 5.5, he will be breeding every doe he can. Why have 2 more years of his genetics in the herd? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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In a deer herd with good age structure his chances of breeding a doe are very slim. | |||
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You work under the premises of IF, and not all segements of the deer herd in the state of Texas have a good age structure or sex ratio. Bucks are most active as breeders between the ages of 2.5 to 4.5 in a free ranging low fence situation. An aggressive spike can and will outbreed a more timid or younger 8 pointer. There are too many variables involved concerning who is doing the majority of the breeding in free ranging white tails. Unless something really unusual happens an obvious cull at 3.5 is not suddenly going to become wall hanger at 5.5, but he will still be breeding and he will still be illegal. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The largest percentage jump in antler development occurs between the age of 4 and 5. Bucks can literaly jump %50 in that one year. | |||
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STU, you have your opinion and I have mine, I do not agree with youb or buy into that thinking. I prefer to beolieve in the cause and effect style of deer management. If the property has a healthy deer herd, numbers wise, age structure wise and sex ratio wise one 3.5 year old definite cull is not worth hanging on to and letting breed, Hoping he will grow larger. I place more faith in my techniques than yours. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I haven't heard anything yet that says he is a definate cull. All we have heard is a width measurement. We don't know how many tines he has, what his mass is like, beam length etc..... Width is a very minor measurement in a deer's total score. | |||
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The amount of horseshit associated with whitetail deer is amazing......Antler size of a given age group has little relationhip to how many does a given buck will breed. Most bucks RARELY breed more than half a dozen does a year.
xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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STU, you are the only person that actually knows anything about deer management on a state wide basis in Texas do you work for TP&W, if not you should, your ecpertise would benefit all of us. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A sad State of Affairs.. No matter what "rules" you like/believe in. I saw first hand, a few days ago, less than 2 miles from my front door, what NO Rules/ Regulations can eleminate... A NICE buck for this area, was dead, on the side of the road. His horns were in velvet. They were just a little wider than his ears, he was an 8 pointer, with pretty good mass, for this area, East Texas, and he had a good body size, looked really healthy ['cept he was dead, hit by a vehicle]. He might have been a buck I have seen on my property regulary 2 years ago in my hay bails, he was a 6 pointer then, do not know for sure... Still I consider it a real shame he was killed by a vehicle... As a side note, I would never shoot a deer on my property, as I would prefer to "watch them" here... I do have a "deer lease" so I can get all the meat I need there. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Notice they had to tell you that the aging criteria is now known to have a mean deviation just as high or higher than her study???? That pretty much means her findings are bunk. At best all you can assume for multiple sired twins is it happens and at what percentage no one knows for sure. | |||
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A recent study showed that a mature buck may only breed one or two does a year. Culling in an unfenced area is like pissing in the wind. I hear this time and again about how you will only have culls left. It is not so. Don't worry about a few deer that don't meet your criteria doing a little breeding. It's not enough to make a difference. And besides you can't cull does for antler traits. That is 50% of the genetic make-up. | |||
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