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| One of Us |
Hey idiot: if you remember, I told you I was on a pulpwood plot in E. TX, where we COULDN'T plant food plots and all the mast trees have been harvested... remember? And as for the five bucks I told you about (yes, they fill one wall!), I will see if Tom will take a picture of each of them with a ruler in the antlers... they all came from around Huntsville, which you in your immense intellectual capacity should know, is PINE!!!!! And as far as being too poor to buy a camera, I never said that. What I said was I didn't have one. There is a difference... Somebody challenges you and you stick your ass in the air and insult. Well, I can do that as well as you can. I don't like being called a liar. | |||
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Here's a good thread on antler restrictions from a few months ago that generated a bit less vitriol and name-calling. It's worth reading if you want to know more about the Texas antler restrictions. IMO, the antler restrictions are an imperfect solution to a serious problem. They do lead to some deer that ought to be culled not being culled because their antlers aren't and don't ever get wide enough. But they save a lot more than Bubba would have otherwise shot to get "his buck." LWD | |||
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For someone who's got me on ignore, you seem to be able to read my posts. Psychic? I'm waiting for the pics. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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And here's some interesting and on topic posts from that thread, with facts supported by evidence, not pulled out of someone's ass like CHC. I often disagree with smarterthanu, but in this case he has real world experience to back up his observations. BTW, while I'm at it, 3 1/2 yr old deer almost always weigh more than 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 yr old deer on the same tract of land. Waiting gets you more venison for your tag. It's a undeniable fact that if you shoot young deer they won't grow into older deer. In the following quoted posts, bold emphasis mine.
I'm waiting for the pics of the wallful of "trophy" less than 13 inch IS deer. I won't be holding my breath. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Yes LWD, less vitriol, but still the same arguements, also a lot of the same inaccuracies. One dealt with less quality and lessQuantity. Very few areas of Texas have a declining deer population, if any do. Another was a comment statingOn Average certain aged bucks will be 13 inches. There are no averages with free ranging deer. Another made mention of the fines being small, fines for shooting illegal bucks AR counties or not are definitely not small. The list goes on. The antler restrictions were/are an attempt by TP&W to placate a certain segment of the hunting public. I could be wrong, which would be nothing new, but I feel the time is approaching where the AR's are going to be dropped, due to the increasing numbers of deer in the state. The AR's or any other such regulations should be at he discretion of the individual land owners/lease holders, simply because unless it is a high fenced property or a place like the King Ranch that has a full time staff of wildlife biologists working for them, too little is actually known about the make up of the deer herd in any given area. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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More complete horseshit you've pulled out of your ass. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Cats Fat Ass, I have been hunting and messing with deer for 40+ years and I have seen more 3.5 to 5.5 year old deer taken up in this area that would not make 13 I.S. on their best day, than I have seen the ones that did go 13 or wider. Just because you or someone else ain't seen something does not mean it don't exist, and it don't mean that in most if not all of the AR counties when a buck hits lucky number `3, regardless of its age it is shot. I suppose you are one of those folks that believes all spikes are merely young bucks and with a little age they will become trophies? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Show me pics and aging by a reputable source, otherwise I think you're pulling more horseshit out of your horse's ass. Or get a statement from a TexasPW biologists or technician that "more than half the deer in your county, 3 1/2 or older won't make 13 inch IS". You're a fucking joke. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Not close. But since this thread has gone into the toilet as so many here do, I'll bow out of the discussion. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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 xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Your the only joke on here and a bad one at that. Your setting there, never met me, probably never hunted up in this area, don't know one damn thing about the area, one damn thing about me an what level experience I have and you think I am a joke. You did not answer my question, "Do You Believe That ALL Spike Bucks Eventually Grow Into Trophies If Allowed To Live Long Enough"? Can you crawl off your throne and answer that simple question? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I have no interest in engaging in any discussion with you. The answer to your somewhat trick question is obvious and I'll leave it at that. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Is the answer you don't know if all spikes grow up to be trophy bucks? You know all spikes grow up to be trophy bucks? Spikes don't exist in nature? What is trick about that question?? Some folks believe a spike just needs some age and he will be a trophy. Is that what you think??? Some folks believe a spike will never be nothing more than a spike or if it does it won't grow a normal rack of any size. I really don't see what is trick about that question. Is your full title Amarillo GatoGordo, Yellow Cat Fat Ass???? Care to answer that one??? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I can see this has been a lively debate. Honestly, I wish they would put antler restrictions in place for other counties in Texas as well. If you read (and importantly U N D E R S T A N D) the regulations, the goal is to make sure the dominant gene whitetails make it to maturity and are able to breed and provide a good honest, free range trophies and improve the herd - both in quality and in N U M B E R S. There is "good eat'in" for the deer in terms of food where the restrictions are in place and ample water. The conditions are right for improving the deer. The regulations allow the taking of inferior genetics. In addition, the areas where the restrictions are in place have a higher human density per square mile versus the deer; unlike other parts of Texas, like the Edwards Plateau that has the highest density of deer in North America, albeit a bit smaller. BTW - I am against high fenced franken-deer in Texas. If you want to high fence your place, that's your right. But, please, don't brag about your 300" deer. They are mutants. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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Well, I'm almost afraid to weigh in, but here goes: I am in favor of the antler restrictions. I hunt mostly on a ranch that is adjacent to the Davy Crockett National Forest, and have done so my whole life. For a good while, we would see and take what was then considered "wall hangers". Then 2 things happened, the forestry service opened a hunters camp not far from our property, and prices of deer leases went through the roof. Every since, we have had public land deer hunters sit right on our fence line and actually hunt our manicured fence lanes. Every year on opening morning, it sounded like a war zone with many a yearling buck hitting the ground. Over the years, the big bucks were seen less and less, and then not at all. I guess we are now in our fourth or fifth year of antler restriction. Just last year we are starting to see deer over 17", but the racks are spindly and not what they were in the past. Hopefully some dominant genes will take hold and we will start to see some mass. Never follow a bad move with a stupid move. | |||
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Folks, for people that like the AR's or are happy with the results they are seeing, that is great. AR's however are not a blanket cure all to solve the real problems and the perceived problems. In Caretakers scenario, then yes more drastic action has to be used and the AR's will at least help raise the age of the bucks in that area. In Austin Hunters scenario, even though the plan is to get the more mature bucks with the better genetics to do the breeding, but that does not always happen. The most active breeding bucks are the 2.5 to 4.5 age group. Even with great genetics some bucks simply never grow a large rack, but they do a lot of breeding, passing along whatever is in their genetic make up that keeps them from growing to its potential. If all areas of the state were the same that would be one thing, they aren't, that is a fact of life. If all counties had a more proper buck to doe ratio 1:1 up to 1:3, then the AR's might be the correct management tool for all counties. Problem is you have counties with higher overall numbers of deer and in many higher doe numbers. Also, there is the human side of the equation, in that not every hunter cares about shooting a trophy buck. The craze or desire for trophy racks did not really get started until the mid 1980's. Up until then, most hunters were happy with any deer they killed. Then along came the numbers game rage and the concept of turning deer hunting into a competetive sport. The biggest reasons why the discussions about Antler Restrictions turn into DonnyBrooks deal with personal attitudes about what each individual hunter is happy in killing, and the fact that most of the folks really enamored with the AR's want EVERYONE else to feel the same way they do, while those that are against the AR's do not care what other people want to shoot. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Exactly!!!!! "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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We hunt in Edwards county. Our whitetail rules (and they apply to all animals except hogs): 1. Shoot only mature male animals 4+ years old 2. Shoot cull/management animals that are 2+ years or older 3. Shoot does that are without young and are not pregnant (you have to watch for pregnant axis does) 4. Don't shoot a mature trophy animal unless you are going to shoulder mount it. Take a cull/mgmt or doe instead. I shot a 3 year mgmt whitetail last year for my whiteail deer quota and did a European mount for the cabin so folks know what to look for. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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Your lease management rules sound fine. One problem with the AR's, is that you can only shoot One Branch Antlered buck with a minimum I.S. of 13 inches. Your only choice for a cull buck is a spike, or you can shoot 2 spikes, but in an AR county you could have a whole parade of 13 + I.S. 2.5 to 5.5 5 and 6 pointers walk by and you legally could not shoot one, unless that was going to be your Trophy Buck for the year. AR's don't have allowances for dealing with obvious culls. Lease/lands managemenmt should be left up to the lease holders/landowners, and not be determined by TP&W, simply because the biologists for the state, unless the property also has either LAMPS or one of the MLD permits, do not have the same familiarity with the individual properties that the lease holders/landowners do. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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 And it was much easier under the old limit of ONLY one buck? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I am another Texan in favor of antler restrictions. My family owns several ranches in Victoria and Lavaca counties and we have seen a dramatic improvement in the deer herd, both quantity of bucks and quality of bucks since the implementation of the restrictions. In fact, Lavaca county was among the first hit with AR's. Though I was skeptical at first... after several seasons I became a believer. I see multiple bucks on a hunt now, where before one would be something worth talking about. I also have seen some really nice bucks for our country, 8 and 10 point bucks with 16" spreads, where before 10" 6 pointers were seen with sickening regularity in deer processor's lockers. I agree it is not a perfect system, but that would be impossible to implement and enforce across broad areas. I would like to see a few more doe tags because we still have an imbalance in that ratio, maybe 3.5:1 but it is better than the 5:1 we used to see. So I am definitely in favor in counties that have heavy hunting pressure. And I think the increase in hunting lease prices have nothing to do with AR's, it is simple supply and demand at work. On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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I don't know about the part of Texas you hunt in Gato, but in the counties I grew up hunting in, you were lucky to see a deer during the season. If it was a buck and you got a shot at it or killed it it was an accomplishment. No one was hunting just for trophies. The deer herd state wide has grown tremendously since 1970 when I killed my first buck, a buck that by todays standards in Young county would not be legal. I have no problem with landowners/leaseholders establishing their own rules for their property. The properties I work on have a 4.5 or older trophy buck policy or a mature cull buck or spikes. Because of the AR's, few people are going to use their one buck tag on a cull or a spike, unless it is the end of the season , and then most of the guys hunting these places will take a spike or two. Few of them ever shoot a management buck, even though they watch them all season, add to that the fact that many of the management bucks do not meet the 13 I.S. requirement, and the genetics in the area are getting screwed up. Whether anyone believes it or not, there as a price increase in this area when the AR's were instituted. Just because you did not experience does not mean it did not happen or that it was merely coincedental. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Well, that's strictly the landowners fault who won't allow the AR limits on his property. And you're complaining that the hunters won't shoot a cull buck or spike? Well  , they're like MOST lease hunters, they want a nice antlered buck, whether it's for their ego or the wall and they're not going to use their one chance on something less until possibly the last few days of the season when hope is dimming. As a matter of fact, I think a fair percentage of deer hunters hunt ONLY for the trophy and companionship aspect because MANY of them either don't like venison overly much or have wives who won't or can't cook it worth a damn. IMO that's one reason "doe" days or dates don't work as well as TPW would like, because so many hunters don't really want venison and they sure don't want to screw up (in their view) what hunting time they have for a good buck by shooting a doe they don't particularly want anyway. What you're saying is the landowner you work for has a one buck limit and you don't like the way hunters use it. Well, too bad, it's their money and their ONE tag, simply due to the landowner's lack of knowledge about deer management dynamics. If the landowner doesn't like the results, he should allow the AR regs to work on his place, or even better, he should consult with TPW, become a MLDP ranch, and watch his deer herd improve over the years. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Exactly and well put. I don't think anyone thinks AR is the PERFECT solution, but it is a workable answer to improve the deer herd, and improve the hunter's enjoyment of hunting. I don't think there is any doubt we need to take more does almost everywhere and I think TPW is working up to the proper number of doe days but are not there yet. One reason, I believe, is they took so much flack (mostly based on false logic) from hunters when they had the "doe slaughter" many years ago. Personally, and this is just my thoughts on the matter, if they really want more does killed by the public at large, then I think they should just have the whole deer season (or at least much more of it) include antlerless and let the hunters use doe tags anytime they want to. Deer hunting, to me and many others, I suspect, is similar to duck hunting. A serious duck hunter doesn't have to kill a limit or even close everytime he goes out, but he LIKES to see ducks. Deer hunters are the same way. They don't have to kill every buck they see, but they like to see bucks and does, it makes the hunting multiples more interesting and more fun. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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That right there shows you lack of comprehension, the land owner can not prevent the AR's on their property if the county is included in the program. With the exception of the age criteria, the AR limits are 1 branch antlered buck with a 13" I.S. or greater and 1 spike buck or 2 spike bucks or 5 deer, no more than 2 bucks. The 18K my boss and his partner have been managing since 2000 produces 130 to 160 class bucks annually. When they took over the places, they had an MLD permit for 7300 acres of the property for the first few years, then dropped out because the MLD's were not adding anything to the management program they had set up. Also, when they first took over the properties, the TP&W biologist for the area estimated the deer population at 1 deer to 40 or 45 acres. The bag limit in Archer county, as late as the 2008-2009 season had a limit of 3 deer, 1 buck and 2 antlerless. I can not remember if Archer and Young counties went under the AR's in 2008-2009 or 2009-2010, but the population of deer in the counties I am familiar with had increased enough, that for the 2009-2010 season, the limit was raised to 5 deer for the county, no more than 2 bucks and only one of those could be a branch antlered 13 I.S. or greater buck.
No, what I said was, just exactly what the AR regs say, 1 mature buck 4.5 or older and 1 spike or 1 mature cull buck AR legal and 1 spike or 2 spikes. but no more than 2 bucks and no more than 1 trophy buck. Also, we don't have doe days, they can be taken all during the general season, plus, we have a two week late season for does and spikes only after general season closes, and we still can't get folks to take all the deer they should be taking. Why should people that are not interested in shooting just one big buck a year or every other year, that do like to eat venison and don't mind shooting whatever jumps up in front of them' be forced to have to deal with regulations designed for more elitist hunters that are only after horns? Between my wife and I we will shoot 4 or 5 does a season, we could legally take 10 and it would not hurt the population up here. In some places killing that many does though it might be legal could or would negatively effect the herd in localized areas? After all the BS that has been swapped back and forth, nothing has changed with possibly one exception, some people think the AR's are greart, other folks hate them, but many folks agree that they are not the perfect solution for all areas of the state. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Yep, the numbers are running about 80% against you. About what the surveys of hunter satisfaction with the AR regs say. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Numbers are not running against me, you first stated that you did not want to discuss this matter with me Now, you have resorted to taking issue with what I am saying about an area of the state you have no working knowledge of. Add to that you have gone to argueing symantics. Here is the exact sentence from your quote of my post:The properties I work on have a 4.5 or older trophy buck policy or a mature cull buck or spikes., please take time to notice that I cleary stated spikes, the "s" makes it Plural not Singular. Additionally you have not answered my question as to whether you believe spikes will grow up to be trophy deer or if they will always be spikes or inferior deer? I am sure all the folks that are hanging on your every word are waiting for you to pass judgement on that. One other little comment you made that clearly shows your lack of knowledge, when I stated that the limits up here were raised because of the increase in the deer herd in this area, you came up with this:
Wrong, it was raised because there are too many deer up in this area. Unlike yourself and the other folks that have to worry about doe days and only being able to take two does if they can be seen, we can go out and see 20 to 30 does in a single afternoon, call me a liar on that one. Why do you think they have 5 deer limits with No AR's down in the hill country, Too Damned Many Deer. Very few hunters any more will kill 4 or 5 deer in a season, for most hunters a good buck and 1 maybe 2 does is all they want and there is a growing trend up in this area of folks not wanting to shoot any does, call me a liar on that one also. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Ok, you're a liar. I can see that many does anyday on my place given decent weather. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Howdy, I went to the farm for the long weekend and saw something fantastic. I have been hunting on this place since I was old enough to hunt and have seen hundreds of deer killed off of it from the past several decades. When I was 13 I killed the largest deer ever taken off of it before then or since. It was a three year old 8 point that if someone was real loose with the tape they could get 120 inches out of it. When opening weekend would open the skinning shed would fill with a dozen 1 year old bucks. Once in a rare blue moon someone would shoot a two year old. We have had 2 years of antler restictions now. We have gone from a buck doe ratio of about 1 to 12 down to a buck doe ratio of about 1 to 4 and I would expect that to improve also. I saw a group of three bucks two were three year olds that would legaly be harvestable this season and one very nice two year old that is too close to call. But the real story is for the first time I saw a buck that was at least five years of age. He will not be a 160 inch monster when he fully develops but 130+ looks very achievable. In the past 35 years I don't even know of one single buck being seen and certianly not harvested in that age class and two years into the program and he is there. I see a brighter future of hunting for my kids. | |||
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We see that many everyday, not any given day or decent weather , but everyday. Five years ago we would see maybe half that many. SMU, that is great. If the AR's are working for you and the situation you re in, then that is good. The AR's however are not the ultimate answer to the problems with the deer herd State Wide. Gato you are simply an idiot, if I recall correctly you said that the AR's were not the complete cure all for the problems with the deer herd in Texas. Your just a butthurt little piece of trash that can not stop arguing points concerning the differences between the different regions of the state. You still have not made an attempt to answer my question concerning spike bucks,and your not going to. I get the picture DA. You think AR's are the be all end all in deer management techniques in Texas and I don't. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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You two ought to get married, LOL!!! | |||
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sounds like they been married what they ought to do is have a bitter divorce would be a step up | |||
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It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth a remove all doubt ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain...no one knows for sure. | |||
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It does seems to fit some of the threads around AR lately.... I always thought it was Mark Twain, never heard it may have been Lincoln....just as good or better though.  This is a very educational read. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Just exactly what is the problem with anyone expressing their opinion if they are open and honest in doing so? What happened to people having opposing/differing ideas on a subject and being willing to stand behind that opinion? Antler Restrictions in Texas is as divisive a subject as there is in the hunting world in Texas. Some folks think they are the greatest thing going, others hate them just as zealously. If an arguement is going on that you don't like, why get involved with it? Why call someone a fool simply because they have an opinion and are willing to state it, especially if those opinions are from actual experiences? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I have been desperately trying to avoid chiming in on this again, but my willpower has failed me. Crazyhorse, what is the answer if not antler restrictions? None of us has said they are perfect. Clearly, they don't address all the potential issues---for example, less than 13" obvious culls get a perpetual pass. But they are very effective in keeping Bubba off the trigger on opening morning, which was desperately needed. And they give us the ability to take out spikes without burning the only buck tag. (The answer to your question by the way is that TPWD's research showed that on average a spike will grow to be almost a non-spike but it takes 4 or more years of the spike's breeding and eating the groceries to get there.) All you've done is criticize their failings. You've not really offered a better solution other than to have and hope that landowners do this themselves when they clearly are not. Your comments remind me of someone who simply can't deal with change or have someone else tell him what to do or just generally likes to be cantankerous, which in your defense does describe Gatogordo. What's an effective but simple enough to implement solution other than the antler restrictions? LWD | |||
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Moi? (from Fawlty Towers)  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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At the risk of becoming involved, Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. KJV, Proverbs 17:28. Best GWB | |||
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Nice, just about every wise saying I've ever heard is just a proverb restated. | |||
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