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Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
The county I'll be hunting in this year is a restricted buck county. A legal buck is one that has at least one unbranched antler OR a 13" inside spread.

I was wondering what others thought about this restriction.

More counties are becoming "restricted buck" counties. I can understand wanting to grow trophy bucks but are people leaving dead deer in the woods when they measure out to have a "12.5" spread? I'd be curious what the fine is since you can't really wrestle them down and tape measure their antlers before you shoot. I understand the general "rule" is antlers outside the ears but deer don't always give you the perfect angle to judge this.

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Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
I believe it is to allow shooting spikes as well as bucks over the minimum spread. The guys i know who have hunted under the restrictions for a while have seen some very positive results.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Unfortunately only one side is being represented Aaron. Many folks around the state hate the Antler Restrictions.

The AR's are one of the reasons why deer hunting has become so expensive here in Texas. The idea behind the AR's is to try and get the average age of the bucks in some areas increased. Because aging a live deer on the hoof is hard even for expert biologists, the 13 inch inside spread rule was established.

Depending on the county, because the AR's are not state wide in scope and from the information I have read from TP&W the last counties to be placed under the AR regs were done so 2 years ago, the county wide limit varies, many of the counties I am familiar with have a limit of 5 deer, of which no more than 2 may be bucks. Of those bucks, only one can be a branch antlered-13 inch I.S.-Trophy Buck the other can be a buck with one un-branched antler, or both bucks can be bucks with one unbranched antler(spikes).

The big problems that manifest themselves are that any time a buck reaches "Lucky Number 13" it is shot. On the other side of the coin and this is the one I have the most experience with, even though a buck may have the genetics for a large rack, not everyu buck, no matter how much free choice protien they have available, they will never grow a 13 inch wide rack.

I have processed several bucks over the years that were 8 and 10 point basket racks that would not make 12 inches inside spread, yet they would age out at 4.5 or 5.5 years old.

Conversely my boss finally shot a big bodied, for this part of Texas, Free Range buck after having watched it for at least 5 years and having seen game cam photos of this animal from over about 5K worth of low fenced pastures, from the cameras of other folks on these leases, and the reason no one was shooting this buck, was because he was a 6 point. Mind you he was a 6 point with an 18 inch inside spread that had a live weight of 166 pounds and we have aged him at 7.5+.

Over the past 3 years the people hunting those leases are seeing several nice bodied 6 pointers, offspring of this one buck. Another big issue deals with spike bucks. Many arm chair biologists/hunters believe spikes are merely young deer that need a chance to grow. I have processed several spikes or 3 pointers over the years that aged anywhere form 2.5 up to a 5.5 year pold spike my wife killed a few years back.

The people that like the AR's really like them, the folks that don't really don't. One aspect the armchair bunch does not consider in their concept of deer management, is that many of the places with the AR's have a limit of 5 deer. That translates out to 5 does if a person is not a horn hunter, but it also means that TP&W is trying to get a message across to hunters that overall numbers are getting to high, and the more deer, the less chance for those bucks with the good genetics to have enough nutritional intake to allow those genetics to reach their full potential.

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The AR's are one of the reasons why deer hunting has become so expensive here in Texa

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Soooo...would either or both of these two bucks not be legal in the AR areas??

Perhaps someone would like to pinpoint the spreads on them?

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Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Give me a straight on look with a ruler and I can tell you whether you are getting a ticket or not.

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ooo...would either or both of these two bucks not be legal in the AR areas??

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Originally posted by Gatogordo:

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ooo...would either or both of these two bucks not be legal in the AR areas??

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CHC - I hear ya, but I really wasn't on one side or the other, I honestly didn't understand what the law was saying. Now I do.

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Posted 02 July 2011 07:14 Hide Post
Gatogordo you arrogant POS, You don't hunt all over Texas, and I have watched the price for leases up in this part of Texas increase as rhe AR's were instituted.

Everything I stated in my response is just exactly what I have experienced up in the counties where I hunt and work.

You don't have to believe me, but unless typou have hunted these counties don't call me a liar.

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Posted 02 July 2011 07:14 Hide Post
Gatogordo you arrogant POS, You don't hunt all over Texas, and I have watched the price for leases up in this part of Texas increase as rhe AR's were instituted.

Everything I stated in my response is just exactly what I have experienced up in the counties where I hunt and work.

You don't have to believe me, but unless typou have hunted these counties don't call me a liar.

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First order of business that I can’t stress enough – this is NOT a trophy buck regulation. Even though we have
stated that numerous times, it can’t be stressed enough. The driving force behind this regulation is an improved age structure in the buck segment of the deer herd which has many human, social and deer-related biological
impacts. Everything from hunter satisfaction to fawn recruitment are impacted by this management approach.

quote:

Antler Restriction Shifts Age Structure of Buck Herd
by Gary Calkins, Pineywoods District Leader, TPWD

In the world of entertainment, the measure of success
can often be seen by the number of T-shirts with a saying
or logo made popular by a band or television show. In a
way, the measure of success, or lack thereof, in the wildlife
field, can be measured by the number of times we
are stopped at the gas station and asked about the topic
of the day. These discussions can range from rattlesnakes
to bears, to the weather, and the impacts on turkeys. But
in recent years, one of the more prevalent topics brought
up is “antler restriction regulation.” Phone calls, hunting
blogs, coffee shops and gas stations have all been the
venue to praise or decry this regulation.
First order of business that I can’t stress enough – this
is NOT a trophy buck regulation. Even though we have
stated that numerous times, it can’t be stressed enough.
The driving force behind this regulation is an improved
age structure in the buck segment of the deer herd
which has many human, social and deer-related biological
impacts. Everything from hunter satisfaction to fawn
recruitment are impacted by this management approach.
The single-most important management decision that
can be made on any property, in any given year, is the
simple “to pull the trigger or not to pull the trigger – that
is the question.” With the smaller property sizes and
number of hunters on the landscape in the Pineywoods,
that simple question has huge impacts across the landscape.
The premise of this regulation is to help with that
decision and lead to a better deer herd and ultimately a
better hunting experience.
Without going into all of the boring details, this regulation
allows for the harvest of bucks with an inside spread
of 13 inches or greater, or at least one unbranched antler.
This provides protection to young and middle-aged
deer, allowing them to grow and mature, and leads back
to that improved age structure I mentioned earlier.
Today’s society operates at high speed all the time. We
have Internet, cell phones, and almost every other conceivable
device to “stay connected” – even cell phones
that go to the Internet. We have become accustomed
to instant satisfaction in nearly every aspect of our lives.
With wildlife management, this regulation being no
exception, instant satisfaction isn’t part of the bargain.
Deer couldn’t care less what new “app” is out there for
the newest gadget; nature still works at the same tempo
it always did, so we are the ones that have to adjust.
With changes in management approaches, it can take
several years to reap the benefits, simply because we
have to wait for nature to adjust and catch up. From the
outset, we said that the first two or three years may be
tough hunting after the change to this regulation, but
that then hunting would improve. We have also heard
everything from “the deer have to have narrow antlers
to run through the woods so they will never get bigger”
to “if we kill all the big ones, only the little ones will be
left.” Years of data can show that neither of this is going
to happen and that we are seeing an improving trend in
the harvest across the Pineywoods.
The area that Texas Parks and Wildlife defines as the
Pineywoods consists of 27 counties running roughly
from Texarkana to Jacksonville, then to Houston and
over to Beaumont, with the state line as the eastern
boundary. This entire area had a deer herd that was being
harvested too heavily in the younger segment of the
buck herd.
When antler restrictions were first implemented, the
northern 16 counties were the first group to have the
new regulation. This decision was based on the fact that
these counties were one-buck counties, had over 65
percent of the male harvest being 1.5 and 2.5-year-old
deer, and through open “come one, come all” scoping
meetings, had overwhelming public support to move
forward. This initial group of 16 counties adopted antler
restrictions, with the 2006-07 hunting season being the
first year to operate under the regulation.
The 2009-10 hunting season was the initial year that the
southern 11 counties in the Pineywoods operated under
the regulation, with the just-completed season being
only the second to see the regulation implemented.
Even though this group of counties was operating under
a two-buck bag limit, the harvest of immature deer
was exceeding the 65 percent benchmark used in the
north as well. Scoping meetings were also held across
this area, the year before, to gauge public support, and
while not as strong as the northern counties, the scoping
meetings showed favorable response for the concept.
P ineywoods Post 3
2.5-year-old deer in 2005, it now shows that
number to be just over 54 percent. The numbers
of 4.5-year-olds and older in the harvest is
almost identical to the northern counties and
increasing.
We realize that it seems like a long time since
the regulation went into effect in that first
batch of Pineywoods counties, but we haven’t
even gone through a full generation of deer
in that area. Mother Nature does not get in a
hurry with things like this, so we have to practice
patience as well. However, all indications
are that we are going in the right direction. We
are not only collecting age structure information;
other research projects have been ongoing
to determine the effects of the regulation
on the deer population. Recently a research
project was completed to see if the breeding
dates of the does had shifted as a result of
the older age structure in the buck segment of the herd.
Results are very preliminary, but appear to show that
very trend. If it is confirmed, it will mean fawns on the
ground earlier, having a better chance at survival, and a
more stable deer herd. We will report the results, when
they are complete.
In the meantime – go hunting, enjoy the resource, take
that extra minute to not only evaluate the antler spread
of the deer, but to simply enjoy the moment and the
opportunity to be out there immersed in nature. If you
shoot the first one that comes out, you will just have to
go home. There are way worse ways to spend your time
than hunting in the Pineywoods!
Since the initial 16 counties have a little more history under
the regulation, analysis of the harvest data is made a
bit easier. When looking at the harvest data for the five
years averaged prior to the implementation of the regulation,
over 71 percent of the male harvest was made
up of 1.5 and 2.5-year-old bucks. Simple math says that
when you kill that many of them that early, there just
aren’t going to be many that grow old. No matter what
the genetics of that animal are, nor how much he eats,
unless he grows up, he will never be able to show the
potential of those antlers on his head.
Since the implementation of the regulation in the northern
counties, age structure has shifted down to 53
percent of the harvest being in that same age
bracket. The most noticeable is the shift in the
harvest of 2.5-year-olds from nearly 30 percent
of the harvest, down to roughly 20 percent; and
having a higher percentage of 3.5-year-old bucks
in the harvest than 2.5’s. Plus, the harvest of
4.5-year-olds and older is now at 17.5 percent of
the harvest – nearing the numbers of 2.5-yearolds
harvested.
Since the southern 11 counties only have two
years under their belts, those can’t be analyzed
on their own simply due to a lack of data. However,
looking at the data from the entire Pineywoods
lumped together, it shows a similar trend
as the northern counties by themselves. From
67 percent of the harvest being the 1.5 and 2.5-year-old deer in 2005, it now shows that
number to be just over 54 percent. The numbers
of 4.5-year-olds and older in the harvest is
almost identical to the northern counties and
increasing.
We realize that it seems like a long time since
the regulation went into effect in that first
batch of Pineywoods counties, but we haven’t
even gone through a full generation of deer
in that area. Mother Nature does not get in a
hurry with things like this, so we have to practice
patience as well. However, all indications
are that we are going in the right direction. We
are not only collecting age structure information;
other research projects have been ongoing
to determine the effects of the regulation
on the deer population. Recently a research
project was completed to see if the breeding
dates of the does had shifted as a result of
the older age structure in the buck segment of the herd.
Results are very preliminary, but appear to show that
very trend. If it is confirmed, it will mean fawns on the
ground earlier, having a better chance at survival, and a
more stable deer herd. We will report the results, when
they are complete.
In the meantime – go hunting, enjoy the resource, take
that extra minute to not only evaluate the antler spread
of the deer, but to simply enjoy the moment and the
opportunity to be out there immersed in nature. If you
shoot the first one that comes out, you will just have to
go home. There are way worse ways to spend your time
than hunting in the Pineywoods!

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about 114 of them have AR, all in central or E Texas.

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They haven't increased by ANY significant amount in my corner of Texas

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Well they have in this corner of Texas.

You seem to feel that anyone that does not support the AR's is a SMF. You don't take time to read and understand anything, you just know that you are right and everyone else is a SMF.

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I just closed on 40 acres in East Texas about 30 days ago. The property has 3 deer stands and an unfinished cabin on it. Looks like it will be good for deer, hog and predators.

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Talk about one hypocritical son of a bitch. You like the AR's b ecause not only do you control what is shot on your property, but in effect you control, to a point, what your neighboring land owners can kill on their smaller properties.

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where there are way too many deer per acre. It takes adequate nutrition to grow decent size antlers.

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It would be helpful to do a soil test. I dunno about down there, but many places up here need some lime.