A simple search of the internet turned up about 8 or 9 articles regarding documented cases of Condor's eating trash.

I cannot find a single documented case of a Condor observed eating a hunter's gut pile.

From a 2004 Article:

For the past three years, wild hatchlings have died after ingesting large amounts of trash. Last month, a chick brought in with a broken wing was found with a record 35 bottle caps in its stomach.

In 2002, all three chicks that hatched in California died about a month shy of their anticipated fledge dates. While cause of death was unknown for two of the birds, the third died of zinc poisoning after ingesting electrical fixtures, screws, and washers coated with the heavy metal.

In 2003, the state's only wild chick exhibited stunted growth after ingesting large amounts of trash, including an 18-inch rag, and had to be euthanized after jagged glass shards perforated its stomach, causing respiratory damage resulting in pneumonia.

This summer, one of the three wild chicks in California was found dead with 4 ounces of trash in its stomach. The chick that consumed 35 bottle caps -- which will be released once its wing heals -- had close to a pound of trash surgically removed.

"It's a huge problem," Mee said. "You can pump out as many captive-bred chicks as you want, but if you can't get them to reproduce in the wild, the rest is inconsequential."

Biologists are unsure why condor parents are feeding trash to their young.

One theory is that birds are mistaking small bits of trash for pieces of bone, an essential source of calcium for condors. As a result, biologists began placing supplemental bone chips at feeding sites. But there have been mixed results.

"The parents still feed on bottle caps and junk, even though bone fragments are available," says Jesse Grantham, interim coordinator of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service condor recovery program.

In addition to providing calcium, biologists are cleaning up the birds' environment. When an egg is laid, biologists sift the cave floor to remove any bits of trash that may already be in the nest.

The worst trash areas, including pads around oil derricks near the condor release site at Hopper Mountain National Wildlife Refuge, have been cleaned up.

Roads in nearby Angeles National Forest, with pullouts known to attract late-night partiers who leave broken bottles, have been shut down.

Michael Wallace, leader of the Fish and Wildlife California Condor Recovery Team, believes the birds still view areas with trash as giant boneyards.

Link to complete article:

http://articles.sfgate.com/200...dor-recovery-program

Another article about a condor dying from drinking anti freeze.

http://articles.latimes.com/19..._1_california-condor

Given the propensity for the condor to:

1. eat garbage
2. the very short CA hunting season (other than wild pig which is not a main stay for the condor)
3. then the likelihood that the condor has to find the gut pile before other animals do

The likelihood that the condor ingests lead from a bullet fragment is about zero.

Honestly, I am begging somebody to find one documented case of a condor observed eating a gut pile fromm a hunter.

I would say that the evidence more likely indicate sthat condors get lead poisoning from eating other things and not hunter gut piles.

Sure would enjoy seeing this on the nightly news!

Why don't you Calif guys sneak out there and shoot all the remaining Condors????

Thus no need for a lead ban.

WHAT HAS A CONDOR EVER DONE FOR YOU???

Are they even good to eat???

So 'bone' yards should be left for them in their ranges. This is done in some parts of Africa. These scavengers need bone, fur and feather in their diets for digestive 'fiber'. Probably why they are resorting to garbage.

When I lived in Michigan I kept a similar situation for crows. All unused bits of carcasses went to the bone 'yard' to feed them. They in turn, fought off hawks that wanted to prey on my chickens.

Turkey vultures often fed at the same piles.

Finally an article that makes sense. Walking along several miles of right-of-way along most stretches of road, one would expect to find lead wheel weights, discarded batteries, pieces of pipe with white lead, and bunches of metallic trash. Several dead opossums, skunks, birds, amadillos, etc., and almost zero lead bullets or pellets.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Why don't you Calif guys sneak out there and shoot all the remaining Condors????
Thus no need for a lead ban.
WHAT HAS A CONDOR EVER DONE FOR YOU???
Are they even good to eat???

You sir are truly a prudent man.

And, may I add that, by reasonable observation, condors are functionally extinct and being kept alive by "life support" techniques.

My guess is that condors are not really very important in world events.

It is called Survival of the Fittest.

Personally I will be happy when Condors and Democrats are ALL extinct...

It's not about the Condor. It's about feeding and growing the bureaucracy that oversees them.

TonyH, IIRC the CA Condor was barely existing even when the first white men came to CA. An enormous amount of money has been spent trying to save a lost cause !.Like saving Haiti .

Great observation Mike. So what CA needs isn't a lead ban, but a bottle cap ban!

Having studied wildlife ecology formally for too many years - my (rhetorical) question from the beginning of using the condor to ban lead bullets has been: When the last one is put in the San Diego zoo will we get our lead bullets back???

It's never been about the condor.

You folks sitting back and laughing at California let a horrible precedent be set by not trying to help us fight this. Now there is lots of talk about using eagles as the vehicle for the next wave of lead bans. I don't think there are many places in the US not recorded as known eagle habitat.

We need to stick together.

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
Having studied wildlife ecology formally for too many years - my (rhetorical) question from the beginning of using the condor to ban lead bullets has been: When the last one is put in the San Diego zoo will we get our lead bullets back???

It's never been about the condor.

You folks sitting back and laughing at California let a horrible precedent be set by not trying to help us fight this. Now there is lots of talk about using eagles as the vehicle for the next wave of lead bans. I don't think there are many places in the US not recorded as known eagle habitat.

We need to stick together.

Kyler, with all due respect, I don't think it is fair to tell all of us that we didn't help or try to, let alone sit back and laugh. I did no such thing. I spent time on the phone, emails, etc., talking to bullet makers, politicians, asking what can be done. Frankly, I take a bit of offense by the comment. You are correct that we are all in this together, and many did and feel the same as me. You folks in California do have non-residents that "have your back" so to speak.

To answer your question, no, we won't get out lead bullets back when the last condor is in the zoo because they (the a-holes) will shift from the condor to some other animal and then preach prevention before it occurs.

quote:

Having studied wildlife ecology formally for too many years - my (rhetorical) question from the beginning of using the condor to ban lead bullets has been: When the last one is put in the San Diego zoo will we get our lead bullets back???

It's never been about the condor.

+1

The condors just make for a convenient scapegoat. It's a slow progression to take away our ability to hunt and shoot. Next it will be we can't use copper bullets in condors areas, then we can't hunt where condors live, then the condors range will expand . . .

There is a nice little article here that talks about what condors eat. They seem worse than bears when it comes to eating trash. As much as I'd like to see them go away, it won't do anything for us hunters. The lead ban will remain and, most likely, we'll get blamed for their extinction.

Interesting thread.

May I ramble a bit without getting flamed? I'm pretty left-wing compared to most folk on this forum - that doesn't mean I hate this country yadda yadda yadda.

I have also been a scientist for my entire working life and know how to interpret data.

I think there are two issues at play here.

First, there are the data. I know enough toxicology to interpret it and the evidence is there that lead is a factor in migratory waterfowl.

Condors I don't know.

However, just as there are guys on this forum (and on others) who foam at the very mention of lead toxicity and either cannot understand the data or simply won't, they have their counterparts on the other side who indeed are fundamentally anti-hunting and anti-gun in general.

I hang with a bunch of leftie academic types and most of us shoot; the rest don't care. It is easy to categorize folk and it often is counterproductive.

The real problem is trying to get the "anti-gun-hunt" mentality to change. On a one-to-one basis I have done it.

I think we need to re-think our tactics and we will prevail.

The notion of condors feeding garbage to their young is indeed a talking-point.

It is the same "science" that keeps the wolves on the endangered list that determines condor mortality by the ingestion of bullet lead. Its not about controlling the projectile used, its about control. period.

I've never seen a condor in the area we hunt Mule deer in, and no one I hunt with (who have hunted Ca for years and years) have never seen ANY in our area either, yet we're in the ban area.

I agree with Kyler that it is not about lead and more about an alternative agenda. A few have died from documented cases of anti-freeze ingestion, yet no one has banned anti-freeze yet.

No-one has banned anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) yet, but there is talk about making it unpalatable.

Anti-freeze apparently tastes sweet but destroys the kidneys. People have been known to use it to poison dogs and cats.

Pure political bullshit. I first read a/b this in Bugle and knew it was shit when the article cited 50 scientist who agreed that lead bullets were poisioning condors. Of course, non of their names were given. What the hell caused their numbers to be so low before the green rouse ?
The other feds are also in on this rouse. Our dog club host events where we buy live ducks or pheasants for the event. If we shoot ducks, they mandate we shoot non-toxic shot, but if we shoot pheasants---on the same grounds, we can shoot lead. The events all occur on private property and are run when bird season is closed. Zero logic involved.
On a better note, the epa has dismissed the latest political attempt to ban lead bullets .

I lost a great Golden Retriever to anti freeze poisoning.

Also several years ago we went through Glacier National Park. Talking with a Ranger at the visitor center on top of Logan pass, he said they are having trouble with the Mountain Goats licking anti freeze in the parking lot there.

True, if you force feed wild ducks lead shot, it can and will in ample amounts kill them. Evidence pointed to puddle ducks being more susceptible than diving ducks, the difference was in diet. Diving ducks feeding primarily on green vegetable matter seems to offset the effects to some degree. However, at the time non toxic shot/lead ban first became a whisper, I was in the outdoor sports/hunting industry. Every video tape we where shown (by the USF&W) was bogus. Showing hundreds of ducks and geese on northern refuges dying of "lead poisoning." Waterfowl that ingest lead shot do not gather to die in groups of any size. They take to heavy cover to hide from predators individually. It can take days to two weeks for them to succumb to lead poisoning depending upon the amount ingested. Whereas birds contaminated from avian influenza and other epizootic viruses tend to remain in large flocks further spreading their disease until the onset of noticeable symptoms. How many birds where wounded and lost to steel shot in the beginning of the lead ban? Early steel loads were pathetic at best. I bet more died from wounds than lead poisoning took out. I have no doubt lead is a factor in bird poisoning, but no where near what the reports claim. The present results support the notion that influenza viruses have been maintained in waterfowl population by water-borne transmission and revealed the mechanism of year-by-year perpetuation of the viruses in the lakes where they breed or congregate in the fall/winter on large refuges where they are fed corn by the truck load.
LDK

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
True, if you force feed wild ducks lead shot, it can and will in ample amounts kill them. Evidence pointed to puddle ducks being more susceptible than diving ducks, the difference was in diet. LDK

"Diet" has little to do with the ingestion of lead pellets. Because ducks, like other avian creatures, have no teeth, ALL species of duck ingest grit to aid digestion. Thus, they often ingest shot just as they do small pebbles. When that shot gets to the gizzard where the initial food digestion begins, it often becomes trapped there. Within time the enzymes present break the lead down and send it into the blood stream. Sometimes that ingestion takes place at the bottom of ponds/lake and at other times it might occur on land. ONE pellet in the gizzard can kill a duck, albeit slower than multiple pellets would.

When the intensive studies first began in the 1970s, they weren't just guessing about the cause of death. Capable biologists did necropsies on literally hundreds upon hundreds of waterfowl to determine the cause of death. Many of the more recent studies were conducted by the state game departments -- all those who wish to eliminate hunting and put themselves out of work.

An example of the findings from the Wisconsin DNR:

*Lead poisoning has been documented in at least 25 species of water birds.

*According to the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (WDNR) Wildlife Health Team, 26 Common Loons were submitted to the team between 2006 and 2008. Approximately one-third of those loons were judged to have died of lead poisoning from the remnants of lead fishing tackle recovered from their GI tracts. Research around the nation has found that poisoning from lead fishing tackle is responsible for up to half of adult loon deaths.

*In Wisconsin, lead poisoning is a significant mortality factor for the Trumpeter Swan, recently removed from Wisconsin’s Endangered species list. Of 143 Trumpeter Swan carcasses submitted to the WDNR for post-mortem examination between 1991 and 2007, 36 deaths (25%) were attributed to lead poisoning.

*Of 583 Bald Eagle carcasses submitted to the WDNR between 2000 and 2007, 91 (16%) of those deaths were attributed to lead poisoning.

*A WDNR study published in 2005 found that some American Woodcock in WI are accumulating unusually high levels of lead in their wing bones. The exact source of the lead is unknown at this time, but data suggest a local and dietary source.

*In 1992, at least 200-300 Canada Geese died as a result of acute lead poisoning from ingesting lead shot on a former trap and skeet shooting range near Lake Geneva in Walworth County, WI. The US Environmental Protection Agency reportedly spent $1.88 M on a Superfund cleanup of the site, removing 28,000 tons of lead-contaminated soils. The most recent large-scale lead poisoning event in WI occurred when 200 Canada Geese were collected in 1999 and again in 2000 from a location in Outagamie Co.

And over the course of the last 20 years, dozens of other studies have been done. Amazingly since the lead shot ban, the incidents of lead poisoning in waterfowl has fallen WAY below what it was before the ban. The ban has also lowered the incidents in other birds that also ingest grit for digestion.

And yes, avian viruses also kill waterfowl. But when it does, the necrosies reveal such.

Here's some interesting reading among the hundreds of articles/research papers available.

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/reso...bpoison/symptoms.htm

Tony, I remember reading those studies well, and yes, I do know birds ingest grit to process food in their gizzard. The biologists were requesting gizzards to study contents in those days and reports published determined it took an average of four #4 size pellets (one of the more popular lead shot sizes) to kill a mallard, yet 6 or more to kill a diver. The report went on to state divers main diets consisted of many type of "green" vegetation; wild celery, sedges, millfoil, coon tail, etc. My point is, ducks that are suffering from the effects of lead poisoning, do not congregate in large flocks, rather go off alone and seek dense cover along shorelines to hide from predators, whereas waterfowl contaminated by avian viruses initially tend to remain together, thereby spreading the disease further until severe symptoms begin. Those early films we watched (USF&W) were showing hundreds or thousands of sick birds on northern refuges. Diarrhea was wide spread, and easy to see in the video. I for one didn't buy the lead poisoning scheme based on those films. I have no problem using non toxic shot for waterfowl, and anything we can do within reason to protect our waterfowl resource is welcome, but telling a bunch of BS to get some new law passed erk's me. It was too difficult to sort out birds dying from lead poisoning (they hide) so they coined up some easy video and passed it along as the gospel. I've seen this pulled before and this Condor issue smells. Personally, I think it's another back door to close all hunting.
Cheers,
David

I didn't see the films so can't comment on them. BUT... diarrhea in waterfowl is often the first sign of plumbism, as well. Regardless of where the waterfowl were dying, lead poisoning among them from spent shot was a major cause of many deaths. And that is a FACT that is well proven.

As for the condor issue and banning hunting, I'm sure the AZ G&F Department, which receives the majority of its funding from the sale of license and tags, will be glad to hear they too are researching themselves out of work.

Outdoor Writer

I'm moved to ask: What is your agenda anyway?

As you can see from earlier posts, people don't seem to give a damn about condors (including me).

So your (individual) position is what? To save an extinct buzzard? Why?

Or, are you purely an anti-lead guy; given that lead, per se, has been a non-issue 'til recently as an anti-hunting raison d'etre? +

On the macro level, for hunting, it seems to work pretty well.

So, as a hunter (and I actually have your book), where are you coming from? I have read your rants over the past couple of years and I cannot figure you out.

TonyH

TonyH you may be making an assumption that people don't seem to give a damn about condors.

Many do, and having a civil dialogue about them shouldn't seem like a threat.

Heck, people do the same to their young. Feed them junk that is.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by TonyH:
Outdoor Writer

I'm moved to ask: What is your agenda anyway?

TonyH

My only agenda is ridding the world of ignorance by providing factual information where appropriate. Sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.

Basically, it comes down to the adage, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

Of course, some folks just enjoy having their heads up their butts. Thus, rather than address the issue, they resort to personal insults, name calling, etc. As I result, I usually ignore them because they aren't worth wasting my time.

Glad you bought the book. Every dollar counts. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Why don't you Calif guys sneak out there and shoot all the remaining Condors????

Thus no need for a lead ban.

WHAT HAS A CONDOR EVER DONE FOR YOU???

Are they even good to eat???

If I saw one.....

Mike, I've written emails to editors of major hunting publications asking them to help support a strike if you will by all hunters in the state to get the point across that we don't agree with this. Hunters I talk to in person are willing to do it. What's a year without hunting? to us it's a year we maybe spend at the range or camping instead but it it millions to Fish and Game. As I was reminding in a meeting the other day, money does the talking. Hit them where it hurts.

Tony's statement about them researching themselves out of jobs in AZ is complete crap. One, research won't support it, not real research with data to back it up. Hell, in D7 where I hunt somebody would first have to find a condor to be able to study it. My stepfather has hunted hear for 50 years and never seen one. The second thing, without backlash fish and game departments have no reason to help hunters out, they see the evidence "keep giving them crap and they'll still come to the table to eat". but a "strike".......


Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
sounds to me like they're rather stupid animals, why are we working so hard to protect them?

Red

Maybe when the population gets large enough, hunters will have another legal critter with targets painted on them, which seem to apparently be the only ones worth saving.

BTW, I heard they taste just like chicken, eh?

Tony,

You seem to have an interest in the is topic. Can you identify for me a a documented observed case of condors feeding on taken big game gut piles.

It's a serious question. Every scientific report I have scene punlished whether scientific, convservation, or government states as a conclusion that the lead comes from hunter shot game gut piles.

I have yet to see a single report that provides actual evidence of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

Maybe when the population gets large enough, hunters will have another legal critter with targets painted on them, which seem to apparently be the only ones worth saving.

BTW, I heard they taste just like chicken, eh?

That's another discussion I think, what determines whether something is worth preserving, game wise. Although it's another thread on it's own I'll put in 1c worth right here. "the preservation of an animal, that could be preserved in a zoo and is not vital to the ecosystem should NEVER take precedence over humans. 2. why is it worth saving? really, that's a big question. Just because it's going extinct, or extinct in the wild, is not in itself a good reason to protect it or reintroduce it.

In this case thousands of hunters are being impacted, higher costs, inconvenience, associated restrictions. (i.e. I no longer may legally carry snake shot in my revolver because that is lead). because of a handful of birds that it seems are hell bent on killing themselves off already without the help of lead from hunters.

If you honestly believe this issue has merit and isn't another step in removing the rights of hunters and shooters you are deluded.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Tony,

You seem to have an interest in the is topic. Can you identify for me a a documented observed case of condors feeding on taken big game gut piles.

It's a serious question. Every scientific report I have scene punlished whether scientific, convservation, or government states as a conclusion that the lead comes from hunter shot game gut piles.

I have yet to see a single report that provides actual evidence of it.

My only interest in the topic is as I mentioned above -- clearing up misinformation and outright BS.

To that effect, I have posted links over the past couple of years to all sorts of field notes and research papers that are out there and available.

And a lot of the FACTS I post here are actually garnered by SPEAKING with the biologists involved in the condor project, not from game wardens in the field or my cousin's cousin's aunt who operates a kosher deli. I also have direct phone lines and e-mail addresses to the head of the AZ G&D's non-game branch, fisheries, big-game branch and any other upper echelon person I wish to interview or ask a question.

In fact, just this morning I sent an e-mail to head of the big-game branch after someone posted that a game department plane blew his stalk on a trophy pronghorn. He claimed he called and the lady on the phone told him they were doing a survey. So I asked the BG supervisor if that was true. I'm awaiting an answer.

I've never used my education, both in biology or journalism as "I know more than you" hammer here, as others are want to do. One of the major concepts of both those subjects, however, is research. So when I post something as fact, it's usually something I have checked once and verified twice. And I've been doing that for over 40 years now. So it's not like I just fell off of the turnip truck.

Anyway...back to the point...

Now, if you had availed yourself to actually read my posts or some of the reseach links I had posted in threads where you had been an active participant, you would have seen there have literally been dozens of observations, not only by the actual research folks but by the common folk, as well.

For example, a message I posted to YOU a while back:

****

Mike,

It's all grand conspiracy to eliminate hunting. Even the AZ G&F department is part of it. Heck, what's a few dollars lost from license and tag sales anyway.

Actually, there have been dozens of occasions where condors were observed feeding on dead deer remains and/or gut piles. The condors are probably the most "observed" thing in AZ next to the Hooter's gals.

In fact, the gal who runs CWT.com is an avid hunter and also a biologist. Last year on the Kaibab, she witnessed a condor on a gut pile of a buck. Here's the photo she took of it after she spooked it off its meal.

"One morning I went out scouting an area while Ray hunted another. I saw another hunter shoot this large buck right in front of me. Later in the day I scored it for him. It went about 180 with those two nontypical kickers.

Later I found this condor right near the gut pile from that buck. Took some pics of it while it was roosted in a tree nearby. You can see its wing tag and the radio transmitter on it also. It was pretty neat to see one so close. I digiscoped a few pics of it. They are pretty ugly, but they have a neat "mane" of black feathers with white highlights around the neck and chest. This bird had just finished feeding on the gut pile (which the hunter shot with a lead bullet, so I suppose it's highly likely that condor ingested some lead)"





Also, every successful hunter on the Kaibab must check out. Last year, they were asked to bring back their gut piles in plastic bags that were provided. In exchange, their name was entered in a $500 drawing for Cabela's merchandise. AND...through a VOLUNTEER program that provides FREE ammo with non-lead bullets, there was 80% compliance.

And..just in case you really do want to read some research that the AGFD is actually included in, here's a couple links that might help.

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/w_c/condors/AOU.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59bTLh-KgFg&eurl=http://...iforniaCondors.shtml

Oh, and here are a few factoids, as well:

The first major condor lead exposure event in Arizona occurred in June 2000, resulting in the death of three condors (Woods et al. this volume). Since that time extensive trapping and testing of condors for lead exposure has occurred in Arizona. Condor blood tests have identified 176 cases of lead levels indicative of lead exposure, while in sixty-six cases, condors required chelation therapy to treat dangerously high lead levels. Further, ingested lead pellets or bullet fragments have been recovered from 14 individual condors

How do they know they were bullet fragments and not wheel weights or fishing sinkers? See below.
***

The fifth study is an ongoing lead isotope study funded by the AGFD and
conducted by the University of Arizona, Tucson, using biological samples provided by TPF condor biologists. This study aims to conclusively determine the pathway for lead exposure in condors. Lead isotope ratios of condor blood and lead removed from condor digestive tracts are being compared to lead isotope ratios of lead retrieved from carcasses on which condors feed, lead ammunition, and other possible lead sources (J. Chesley pers. comm.). Preliminary results have established a direct match between lead ammunition and lead found in condor blood and digestive tracts (J. Chesley pers. comm.). As they become available, data from this study are incorporated into the communication strategy and shared with the public.


And then there was this message in a very recent thread:

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:
Tony or anyone else that may know-

I am interested in reading the "scientific" literature behind this debate.

This page on the AZ Game & Fish Department site is a good place to start in regards to condors. Be sure to use some of the external links found on the page.

These archived Field Notes also make for interesting reading.

*****

And here's just one of the archived field notes from the last link above. I would guess the guy -- a biologist working on the condor project AND a hunter -- is also doing his best so he can no longer hunt.

Notes from the Field - Archive
September-October 2009 - (04 Nov 09)
Eddie Feltes


With the big game rifle seasons well underway in northern Arizona and southern Utah, we see a major shift in foraging behavior of the condor population. The majority of the domestic sheep herds have been moved off the Kolob range down to lower elevations for the winter, and aside from some stragglers that will remain, the primary food source for condors in Utah becomes hunter-killed deer and elk remains. The archery hunts of September provide the birds a great, clean food source, and although limited, they found plenty of gut-piles to scavenge throughout the month of September. And then as October arrives, the rifle seasons provide significantly more gut-piles as well as un-retrieved wounded animals.

I personally took part in this cycle and witnessed it from both sides, as biologist and hunter during the southern Utah rifle deer hunt. I had drawn a tag to hunt in the same range that the condors use to forage during the deer seasons, and while hiking and hunting in the hills, I saw condors patrolling the skies alongside Golden Eagles and Turkey Vultures, all covering miles and miles in search of that next fresh meal. And although I was using non-lead ammunition in my rifle, a large number of hunters that I had come across and chatted with in the field were doing otherwise. Fortunately the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources has been making major moves to launch a free non-lead ammo system and education campaign that will give hunters in the Southern Utah condor range an opportunity to redeem free non-lead ammunition and take part in playing a major role in wildlife conservation success by limiting lead availability to wildlife during their hunt. Funding is being secured for the program to launch in fall of 2010, and I really look forward to the results.

During the same deer hunt that I was participating in, biologist Evan Buechley had tracked several birds to a full deer carcass that had an apparent gunshot wound in the shoulder. Parts of the deer were heavily scavenged, and after collecting data and recording every bird in the immediate area that may have fed on this carcass, Evan buried the remains. Events like this are crucial during this time of year, and having experienced biologists on our crew to track and collect these data impacts condor success and enhances survival immensely. Within two weeks we were able to trap and test the first bird to return to the release site that was known to have fed on Evan’s found deer carcass, and young Condor 414 tested high for blood-lead exposure, and is currently being treated with daily chelation therapy in our treatment facility.

Over the past two months we have made three different trips backpacking down to the nest cave observation site of Condors 210F and 122M, in hopes of getting some observations of chick 527, but all three trips have turned up nothing. We are certain that if still alive, the chick is no longer in the nest cave, and if fledged, the bird is not in the immediate vicinity of the nest cave wall. These factors alone left a concerned outlook on Condor 527’s fate, but I still did not rule out the fledging of the chick to another nearby location, as both parent birds were still hanging out in the area during all of our trips.

Grand Canyon Park biologist Rosa Palarino made another trip down to get some observations, and Rosa did not receive one signal from either parent bird during her four-day trip. And in following the movements of both Condors 122M and 210F, we are certain that both birds stayed in Utah for eight days straight together last week, making any hopes of Condor 527 still being alive fade drastically.

During the last of the slow weeks winding down at our release site, with the majority of our population free-foraging in Utah and on the Kaibab plateau, we decided to squeeze out one more release before the trapping season hits full tilt. On 2 November 2009, we released first time releases Condors 466M and 485F from our Vermilion Cliffs’ release site. Both birds were hatched and raised at our breeding facility in Boise, Idaho in spring of 2008, before being transferred to us for release. And currently they are doing great as new free-flying condors. Stay tuned to the next NFTF to see how these new birds are managing integrating into the already wild population…

Mike,

A bit more for you. Let me know if you need more "observations."

*****

Notes from the Field - Archive
August 2009 - (08 Sep 09)
Eddie Feltes


As the summer months begin tapering off, the wild condor population is treated with a new source of food in the rugged backcountry of the region--deer and elk carcasses and their gut-piles that are added to the ecosystem by the first archery hunts of the year. We have already documented a handful of archery gut-piles that were fed upon by the birds, in just the first few days of the start of the archery hunts. This is a great, clean source of food for the wild population that the birds really seem to favor over the whole carcasses that need to be worked upon to get through the tough hide, although we have found a few whole-carcass sites that have had birds camped out on for several days so far.


Joell Brown and Chris Parish release Condor 187
With the start of the hunting seasons upon us, this is the time of year that we try to trap up the remaining birds in the population that may be stealth, having no functioning transmitter worn, so we can apply new transmitters allowing us to track the daily movements and recover any downed birds during the upcoming lead season. While in hand, we are also drawing blood and performing a blood-lead test in the field just in case the feeding on a contaminated carcass slipped under our radar, allowing us to treat the bird if the need were present. To date all of the blood-lead levels have been low so far and at releasable levels, which is common to see during the summer months in this population. We are also trapping special target birds that have been chosen as perfect candidates to wear one of the new GPS transmitters that we just received; chosen due to their tendencies to roam far and wide in range and most likely to become stricken with lead poisoning due to their ability to seek out non-proffered food sites and their dominance at carcasses when feeding. One such bird, 11 year-old male Condor 187, was trapped on 24 August 2009 and fitted with a new transmitter with the assistance of Joell Brown and Pat Burnham who happened to be visiting from our Boise offices en route to other business here in Arizona.

The use of GPS transmitters on the population allows data to be processed via a daily internet download, allowing us to view movement patterns of certain birds. Seven year-old female Condor 280 in particular, has made a few foraging flights to the Bryce Canyon area of southern Utah, and even further north of Bryce Canyon to the FishLake National Forest in Utah with a few other birds a few weeks ago. These are major movements that we as biologists like to document, because they are out of the general range area that we see utilized and over time we may see patterns develop that can be of great help in management of this population. The use of these state-of-the-art GPS transmitters make this all possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
That's another discussion I think, what determines whether something is worth preserving, game wise. Although it's another thread on it's own I'll put in 1c worth right here. "the preservation of an animal, that could be preserved in a zoo and is not vital to the ecosystem should NEVER take precedence over humans. 2. why is it worth saving? really, that's a big question. Just because it's going extinct, or extinct in the wild, is not in itself a good reason to protect it or reintroduce it.

Red

Game wise?? Last I heard, the G&FDs and DNRs in all states, as is the USFWS, are assigned the task of managing ALL wildlife, not merely "game" animals.

Here's a few messages I've posted in the past:

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quote:
Originally posted by TonyH:
My thoughts on condors are that they are being (very, with my tax dollars) expensively kept alive for no particular purpose other (perhaps) than the egos of an ecologically minded special interest group.

Condors seem to be irrelevant, in and of themselves, but they are being specifically cited as a "reason" to ban lead in the taking of other animals. That is the conundrum, and the issue here.

From me:

Yeah, there are quite a few species on the endangered list that fit that niche. Two I can readily think of because they are beng pampered here in AZ are the Sonoran Pronghorn and the masked bobwhite quail. After decades of coddling, neither species has shown much overall improvement in numbers.

And then there is the Gould's turkey. But of course, no one has complained about how much money and time has been spent over the last 30 years or so to reintroduce them to AZ. For a long time, most of the planted birds served as coyote finger food.

Just a guess here, but the fact they were destined to be a HUNTABLE species, as they now are in minimal numbers, might be one of the reasons. Likewise for the once endangered Apache trout, which is now a noted fishery in AZ after decades of work to restore them. Yet no one complained about the "human intervention" by egotisical people. Of course, if it had been some worthless minnow or buzzard, the outcry would have been significant.


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I guess your question of why there are not thousands is a serious one, though it shows an overall lack of knowledege about condors and the restoration program.

Of course they are being "kept alive" by human intervention; that's what the effort to restore a population and reintroduce the species to the wild is also about, no? If it was an animal that might eventually have a target on it for hunters, would you say the same thing?

Elk in AZ were once extinct, too. That isn't the case anymore, thanks to "human intervention."

So a few facts to ponder:

1. When the last condor was captured in the 1980s, the GRAND TOTAL of the existing population -- all captive -- was 22 birds.

2. Condors aren't rabbits. Reproduction generally amounts to one chick per nesting period for an ADULT pair of birds that will be 6-8 year old. Sometimes, however, the nesting is not successful.

Example:

Of the 61 birds in AZ in 2007, there were only SIX adult pairs that nested and only two of those nestings were successful. That made only six successful nestings for AZ since the birds were released there a few years ago.

During the same year, the more controlled captive population in Boise produced 11 chicks and nine of them were eventually released into the wild.

3. Today, despite all of the previous deaths due to lead poisoning and other factors, there are approximately 300 condors between the wild population in AZ & CA, and those still in captivity. Given the rate of reproduction and mortality, that's about as successful as the program can be over the time span it's existed.

4. One reason other raptors do not experience the same level of effects from ingesting lead is their diets:

Condors DO NOT kill their food; they are scavenegers, mostly feeding on carrion -- already dead critters. In contrast, most of the smaller raptors -- hawks, falcons and eagles -- usually catch, kill and eat their meals, which often consist of LIVE rodents, birds, rabbits, etc. or fish.

That said, some raptors, golden and bald eagles have also died from lead poisoning. And no doubt many others have been affected somewhat. Why? Because they sometimes feed on carrion, as well. But of course, no one closely monitors each individual of these species like they do with the condors.

And of course, the deaths of millions of waterfowl from lead poisoning as a result of ingesting lead shot, is a WELL DOCUMENTED fact.

The big difference for knowing when condors suffer lead poisoning in contrast to other raptors is the monitoring effort.

EVERY condor in the wild carries a highly visible number on its wing and sports a radio transmitter that even uses satellite reporting. Other raptors do not. So it's easy for the researchers to know EXACTLY what's going on with the condors.

If one was to visit the area around Houserock Valley and the Vermllion Cliffs in AZ on any given day, he would likely see a researcher somewhere in the area with an antennae monitoring the birds. As soon as a bird indicates unusual behavior akin to the symptoms of lead poisoning, they capture it for treatment.

5. In 2007, after the no-lead voluntary program on the Kaibab hunt in AZ had been started in 2005, NO condor died from lead poisoning and fewer than ever before were treated for it. One would have to wonder why that is, huh?

6. The comments about the non-lead bullet issue as an attempt to get rid of hunting are humorous at best and ridiculous at worst, considering the AZ Game Department is fully involved in the restoration here. Thus, it would be senseless for them to cut their own throat, so to speak. Without hunting revenues, which accounts for a major chunk of the department's budget, that agency no longer exists.

Lastly, loons are no where near extinct, though thousands of them also succumbed to lead poisoning from ingesting lead shot over the decades.

we need condors like we need mosquitoes. I think it's a shame the bird is on the apparent brink of extinction. But the lead ban in those regions isn't going away, EVER, in my opinion, now that it is in place whether the condor dies out or not.

The question I have is, is this species going downhill in numbers due solely to eating lead bullet fragments? If so, I personally have no problem with making bullet adjustments in the areas where the bird lives. If not, and the condor was on the decline anyway, then frankly, its time is up on earth. It is the natural course of its existence, and soon to be non-existence.

I realize that by saying this I will probably be ostracized and ridiculed, but I’m going to say it any way.

We hunters, and yes I’m one, have long been touting that we are the greatest conservationists on the planet. So I ask what if they are right. What if our lead bullets are contaminating gut piles that are affecting scavengers, and our own meat that we feed our families? As the greatest conservationists shouldn’t we embrace lead free bullets? New innovations in lead free bullets have come about because of this issue, and I see more coming soon the mother of invention is necessity after all. As much as you guys are pardoned that this is an attempt to kill hunting did you ever think that your stanch refusal to accept the possibility that lead bullets are harmful to the ecosystem will be used against us hunters? How long is before the anti hunters start saying “Hunters are not conservationists, we show them science that they are damaging the vary ecosystem that they claim to cherish, but they cling to their barbaric antiquated tools that are doing the damage when there are perfectly good alternatives.” Fighting the “lead ban” makes us look like a bunch of crazy conspiracy freaks, unwilling to accept the truth. We need to embrace lead free bullets if we want to keep our hunting heritage alive. Hunters need to be above reproach and flee the appearance of evil. Hunting is not go to be decided by the hunters or the anti-hunters, it is going to be decided by the average citizen who is not a hunter, and if they start seeing hunters as being un-reasonable crazy conspiracy freaks they will vote to limit hunting at the polls, and on their lands.

I now fully expect to be called a tree huger, communist, spy etc….. I am none of those things. Just a small town firefighter who is going hunting for Sitka black tails, and maybe a brown bear in 10 days and wrestling with this vary question as to which bullet to take. I wish barns would make a 35 cal. bullet heaver then 225gr but that is what I’m going to use on the deer, because my small kids will be eating the meat and I do not want to take any chances with lead, that said I will be taking some 280 swift A frames for the bears.

quote:

Originally posted by Auke Bay LT:
I realize that by saying this I will probably be ostracized and ridiculed, but I’m going to say it any way.

We hunters, and yes I’m one, have long been touting that we are the greatest conservationists on the planet. So I ask what if they are right. What if our lead bullets are contaminating gut piles that are affecting scavengers, and our own meat that we feed our families? As the greatest conservationists shouldn’t we embrace lead free bullets? New innovations in lead free bullets have come about because of this issue, and I see more coming soon the mother of invention is necessity after all. As much as you guys are pardoned that this is an attempt to kill hunting did you ever think that your stanch refusal to accept the possibility that lead bullets are harmful to the ecosystem will be used against us hunters? How long is before the anti hunters start saying “Hunters are not conservationists, we show them science that they are damaging the vary ecosystem that they claim to cherish, but they cling to their barbaric antiquated tools that are doing the damage when there are perfectly good alternatives.” Fighting the “lead ban” makes us look like a bunch of crazy conspiracy freaks, unwilling to accept the truth. We need to embrace lead free bullets if we want to keep our hunting heritage alive. Hunters need to be above reproach and flee the appearance of evil. Hunting is not go to be decided by the hunters or the anti-hunters, it is going to be decided by the average citizen who is not a hunter, and if they start seeing hunters as being un-reasonable crazy conspiracy freaks they will vote to limit hunting at the polls, and on their lands.

I now fully expect to be called a tree huger, communist, spy etc….. I am none of those things. Just a small town firefighter who is going hunting for Sitka black tails, and maybe a brown bear in 10 days and wrestling with this vary question as to which bullet to take. I wish barns would make a 35 cal. bullet heaver then 225gr but that is what I’m going to use on the deer, because my small kids will be eating the meat and I do not want to take any chances with lead, that said I will be taking some 280 swift A frames for the bears.

I don't have one problem with your post. I've been shooting Barnes bullets in most cases since 2003. But that has nothing to do with condors. Still most of my deer fall to steel....from a broadhead. Hunting with a firearm isn't really hunting. It's just too easy. It's really just killing.

Now all you rifle totin bafoons can TORCH ME!!