That's why they call it political science!

If you have mercury or "silver" fillings in your teeth, you are ingesting way more dangerous heavy metals than anyone who eats game shot with lead based bullets ever will. For the record, I have and will continue to to use lead-based bullets until they are completely unavailable, and will continue to recommend that people eat game with a completely clear conscience. The real dangers come from the "domesticated meat feed lots (beef, chicken, pork), and the stuff that is forced into those critters.

Nosler partitions work like a house on fire!!

I hate information that given as truth, when it is getting spun to try to prove a moot point.

Have an excellent day, gentlemen.
Good hunting, with whatever shoots accurately and reliably from your firearm of choice.

Graham

quote:

They had a real life study of thousands of birds in the wild dying from lead poisoning. A necropsy nearly always revealed ingested lead shot in their gizzards as the cause.

I'll try not to turn this into a waterfowling thread, but I was around then and heavily involved in the most prolific parts of the Mississippi Flyway. That's mostly puddle ducks which were the type I understood to be most affected by lead shot.

I remember all the controversy but I don't think I ever met anyone who recalled actual field tests done on dead birds found in these parts. Do you remember back to where those thousands of birds were found or what the circumstances were?

Predators make short work of any dead duck or goose including cripples either alive or that die later, so as a practical matter it would have been very difficult to find enough dead birds for a meaningful study. I say that having been out there enough to have some idea of the frequency with which one finds dead birds that can't otherwise be accounted for. It's not very often.

Another thing I used to wonder was if they wanted a conclusive test, why not ask or require hunters to bring in for checking on a mass basis enough birds they killed for a scientific study. They could have done this twice, both before and after the ban. If they found no lead shot that would tend to indicate that the birds in practice were eating little of it. Now, that theory could be explained away by saying the birds probably died and were disposed of by predators before they could be shot by hunters. So, they could also have done an examinatiion AFTER the ban. And if they found no steel or other non-toxic shot, that would also tend to prove that birds either don't eat shot or if they did, to what degree. I have never heard of this being done, but why not?

In any event I think both sides turned out wrong in several respects. First, as I recall there was no big increase in the numbers of puddle ducks after the ban. On the other hand, opponents of the ban were probably wrong about increased crippling. That was in fact the case for a time, temporarily, but hunters soon learned to compensate with several little tricks - maybe you remember some of them.

Incidentally, speaking of waterfowling generally, you know what old timers used to say what was always the best long range duck load?

I'm a big fan of actual science, and often science is done well and is meaningful. This particular study has lots of holes in it's methods which do not invalidate the assertion that "growing, starving pigs will eat the living crap out of some deer in which there are lead fragments, and have increased blood lead levels," but it does make me suspicious of their biases and what else the results indicate. They don't tell you what bullets are used, and they'd need to do this study with different bullet types, increase the number of pigs which are fed the meat, they would also need to randomize which packages of meat were fed to the pigs, not just the ones with visible "dense" fragments. And someone mentioned doing something about converting the study to human relavence, but lead is absorbed differently than other substances, but that would be the ultimate test. I could go on with all kinds of ways they could make this study truly relavent to hunters, and I read the whole study, but I think my point is relatively clear. This point being that this study does not prove that lead bullets are dangerous to humans who consume meat taken with said bullets.

quote:

why not ask or require hunters to bring in for checking on a mass basis enough birds they killed for a scientific study.

The local yo-yo from the Kansas Wildlife and Parks was declaring all the ducks brought in for checking during the duck season were partially lead poisoned! But they were never tested. Most of time he couldn't identify dead ducks much less those in flight, or suffering from lead poisoning.

He obviously had been told to declare all the ducks were suffering from poison to some extent to get rid of lead shot. What a farce .... kinda like solar, wind, and ethanol ... not to mention the Montreal Protocol. Oh, my aching butt!

Yes it is real. Nothing showed up in the x-rays and i eat birds and deer.It was a large area that was covered,just thought it could be told.Good Luck

I would like to see the study that conclusively demonstrates what the health impacts have been on people who have consumed hunt killed venison their entire lives.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

I remember all the controversy but I don't think I ever met anyone who recalled actual field tests done on dead birds found in these parts. Do you remember back to where those thousands of birds were found or what the circumstances were?

NOTE: This is a long post to get it all out of the way at one time.

They were doing in-field studies on both live and hunter-harvested ducks as far back as 1959. At least 12-15 game departments and many universities did one or more research projects into it and everyone reached the same exact conclusion- ducks that ingest several lead shot pellets over a couple of days will likely die and at least show the effects of plumbism (lead poisoning).

In studies where they captured live birds, they first took blood samples to determine lead levels. If the level was high, they then used a flouroscope to check for lead shot; it generally showed them present in the gizzard.

States that I can recall from memory are TX, IL, ND, SD, ID, MI and Ga. And of course, the USF&WS did several different ones.

Of course, all the naysayers will claim the science is faulty and all of these research conclusions came from anti-huntng sources. Obviously, the intent of the DNRs is to research themselves out of a job.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

Another thing I used to wonder was if they wanted a conclusive test, why not ask or require hunters to bring in for checking on a mass basis enough birds they killed for a scientific study. They could have done this twice, both before and after the ban.

Several of these types were also done. Here's the abstract from one by the University of Illinois -- LEAD POISONING IN ILLINOIS WATERFOWL, 1979 THROUGH JANUARY 1982, INGESTED SHOT, BLOOD CHEMISTRY, AND DIE-OFFS

Abstract: The incidence of ingested shotgun pellets in gizzards of waterfowlharvested in Illinois in 1979-81 was 6.4% in 9,574 mallards, 2.6% in 346diving ducks (primarily lesser scaup), and 5.4% in 724 Canada geese. Shot-in pellets occurred at rates of 5.6%, 2.0%, and 5.7%, respectively. Con-centrations of protoprophyrin (a blood pigment precursor to hemoglobin) in1,487 waterfowl (922 mallards, 264 canvasback, and 301 Canada geese) providedrates of lead poisoning that reinforced those obtained via ingested pellets.However, incidence of pellets in gizzards was only about 50% as sensitive asthe measurement of lead in blood for determining the prevalence of leadpoisoning. Recent lead poisoning die-offs include the loss of 220 ducksalong Quiver Creek (Mason County), 400-500 ducks at Horseshoe Lake (MadisonCounty), and 450-600 Canada geese and mallards at Rend Lake. The areas onwhich nontoxic (steel) shot was required for waterfowl hunting during the1981 season (Horseshoe Lake PHA [Alexander County], Union County PHA, RiceLake PHA, Oakwood Bottoms PHA, and Crab Orchard NWR) should be retained asnontoxic (steel) shot zones for an indefinite period. In addition, Rend LakePHA, Batchtown PHA, and the private land surrounding Horseshoe Lake (AlexanderCounty) should be given "Top Priority" for requiring nontoxic (steel) shot.Other areas recommended for coverage by the nontoxic (steel) shot regulationinclude Horseshoe Lake (Madison County) and the Illinois River Valley fromSpring Valley to Meredosia and from Kampsville to Grafton. Statute 2.18-1 ofthe Wildlife Code, which restricts implementing nontoxic (steel) shot regula-tions, should be allowed to expire on 1 January 1984 or ammended to accommodatethe recommendations of this study.

The objectives of this report are .to (1) summarize research conducted onlead poisoning among waterfowl in Illinois from 1979 through January 1982 and(2) make management recommendations concerning the use of nontoxic (steel) shotfor waterfowl hunting in the state. Investigations of lead poisoning were initiated in 1979 in response to mounting resistance to the steel shot program.In particular, hunters questioned whether lead poisoning was a problem among waterfowl in Illinois, and they criticized the criteria used (primarily numberof waterfowl harvested per county) for selecting steel shot zones.

Gizzards were collected from waterfowl harvested during the hunting seasons and examined for ingested shotgun pellets; blood samples were taken from live-trapped birds and analyzed for concentrations of lead and proto-porphyrin (PP); and information was compiled on die-offs caused by lead poisoning during the past 3 years. Increases in protoporphyrin, which isa pigment in blood and a precursor to hemoglobin, occur as a specificresponse to lead poisoning in ducks and geese (Roscoe et al. 1979). PP alsoincreases in humans suffering from lead poisoning (Watson et al. 1958) and,in fact, the measurement of PP is a routine procedure for monitoring childrenfor the disease.

METHODS AND MATERIALS

Gizzards were collected from 10,008 waterfowl (9,574 mallards, 346 divingducks, and 88 Canada geese) at 48 locations in Illinois during the 1979, 1980,and 1981 hunting seasons (Fig. 1). All of these birds had been bagged byhunters. The gizzards were labeled as to area and stored in a freezer or preserved in 95% ethanol until processing. Each gizzard was opened and itscontents separated into a "grit" sample and a "food" sample by a combinationof washing and screening. After air drying for 24 hours, the food sampleswere packaged individually in plastic bags and stored in a freezer for use ina food habits study conducted by G.A. Perkins of the Illinois Natural HistorySurvey.

***

Here's another good read from SD concerning nontoxic shot for ALL birds and small game.

And another...

And this one from Wisconsin DNR on other avian cases, including eagles, of lead poisoning deaths.

And this one from the U of Vermont on lead poisoning of loons.

One by Milton Friend of the USFWS Health Research Center.

Here's one from 2000 you might definitely enjoy reading. A quote:

A new study suggests that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's 1991 nationwide ban on the use of lead shot for waterfowl hunting has had remarkable success, preventing the premature deaths of millions of waterfowl from lead
poisoning.

The study, "Ingestion of Lead and Nontoxic Shotgun Pellets by Ducks in the Mississippi Flyway," was funded in part by the Service's Great Lakes and Southeast Regional offices and published this summer in the Journal of Wildlife Management.

In order to gauge the effect of the ban on lead shot, researchers examined thousands of ducks harvested in the Mississippi Flyway during the 1996 and 1997 waterfowl seasons, the fifth and sixth seasons after the 1991 ban on lead shot.

Based on the survey's findings, researchers William L. Anderson of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources and Stephen P. Havera and Bradley W. Zercher of the Illinois Natural History Survey estimate that the ban on lead shot reduced lead poisoning deaths of Mississippi Flyway mallards by 64 percent, while overall ingestion of toxic pellets declined by 78 percent over previous levels.

The report concludes that by significantly reducing lead shot ingestion in waterfowl, the ban prevented the lead poisoning deaths of approximately 1.4 million ducks in the 1997 fall flight of 90 million ducks. In addition, the researchers state that approximately 462,000 to 615,000 acres of breeding habitat would have been required to produce the same number of birds that potentially were saved by nontoxic shot regulations that year. With the ban now entering its ninth year, ingestion of lead shot has probably continued to decline from the levels documented in the study, preventing an increasing number of lead poisoning deaths.

"The results of this important report suggest that the ban on lead shot has been a resounding success for the health of waterfowl populations, and has almost certainly contributed to the record numbers of waterfowl we have seen in recent years. I'm proud that the Service took the initiative in phasing out lead shot for waterfowl hunting, and continues to expedite the approval of nontoxic alternatives to lead shot for hunters," said Service Director Jamie Rappaport Clark.

****

And here's one about the endangered trumpeter swans.

Or how about ....

A 1982-83 study involving about 3,000 hunter-harvested mourning
and white-winged doves taken on wildlife management areas in South
Texas indicated about 2 percent of those doves had lead shot in their gizzards.

Studies in other states suggest overall lead shot ingestion rates by
doves are as low as 0.2 percent to as high as 6.4 percent. But in
some specific areas, as many as 20 percent of doves were found to
have ingested lead shot.

Some doves were found to have ingested as many as two dozen
lead pellets.

Plenty of spent lead shot is out there for the birds to find. Most dove
hunting occurs over and around feeding fields or, in Texas and other
southwestern states, water holes — just the places where doves
pick up grit. And the same fields and water holes tend to be hunted
year after year.

In studies conducted by the Missouri Department of
Conservation, one of the nation's most-respected state wildlife
agencies, indicate a dove ingesting spent lead shot is almost certain
of suffering its toxic effects.

To test the acute toxicity of lead on doves, the Missouri study used
180 mourning doves divided into seven groups during three separate trials
and fed them various numbers of No 7 1/2 lead shot. The birds were monitored
for 21 days.

By the end of the 21-day period, 104 of the treated doves had died,
with 53 surviving. All 22 doves that had not ingested lead shot survived the study.

****

And my last comment on the topic...

A google search for "lead poisoning in waterfowl study" will bring up endless research cites.

P.S. I still haven't located the study where they fed individual ducks 7 lbs. of lead.

quote:

Originally posted by plainsman456:
Yes it is real. Nothing showed up in the x-rays and i eat birds and deer.It was a large area that was covered,just thought it could be told.Good Luck

Well, that's good. Sounds like you're good to go unless someone suggests a blood test is the only way to check for elevated lead levels in your system.

But at least you won't be setting off any airport metal detectors.

quote:

Based on the survey's findings, researchers William L. Anderson of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources and Stephen P. Havera and Bradley W. Zercher of the Illinois Natural History Survey estimate that the ban on lead shot reduced lead poisoning deaths of Mississippi Flyway mallards by 64 percent, while overall ingestion of toxic pellets declined by 78 percent over previous levels.

Not that the data is not out there but if it is unknown as to how many ducks died every year from lead poisoning how does one know how many were saved? Sounds kinda like the Obama no jobs created but millions of jobs saved!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Not that the data is not out there but if it is unknown as to how many ducks died every year from lead poisoning how does one know how many were saved? Sounds kinda like the Obama no jobs created but millions of jobs saved!

They use some sort of voodoo, coupled with a ouija board and rain gauge.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
I would like to see the study that conclusively demonstrates what the health impacts have been on people who have consumed hunt killed venison their entire lives.

This has not been done, and don't hold your breath either. This likely will never happen for a multitude of reasons that aren't worth getting into. Even if it were done, I am confident it would not demonstrate anything conclusively as there are too many difficulties/confounders in doing this sort of case/control research. I have researched this quite a bit in the past. If any skeptics out there would like some citations on research showing that eating lead increases lead levels, let me know. If you will just assume that the research is biased, left wing propaganda, then there is no use in investigating.

For those of you who cite retained penetrating lead bodies not causing problems, please review lead's solubility as a function of pH.

Remember, lead poisoning is usually a disease of unrealized potential rather than overt symptoms. Think about this the next time you feed your young children or pregnant wife game which may have lead contamination. I no longer use cup/core bullets for this reason.

FACT #1. Eating lead will increase lead levels. (likely in a dose/surface area dependent fashion)
FACT #2. There is no safe lower threshold of lead in the blood.

These facts are indisputable. All this said, adults can make decisions for themselves. Eat as much lead as you wish, but please don't hurt your kids potential.

Wes

quote:

For those of you who cite retained penetrating lead bodies not causing problems, please review lead's solubility as a function of pH.

Nice to see someone else who has done their own research on the topic.

It might help to explain the above quote a bit for those with unscientific backgrounds.

What it means is simply that the more acidic the environment -- i.e. lower PH # -- such as in the digestive tract, the more soluble lead is, i.e. it dissolves more. Thus the reason lead pellets in flesh rarely result in elevated lead levels in the bloodstream.

And a to your other comments.

Tony,

Actually the PH isn't so much the determining factor as the amount of chlorine available to make lead chloride which will move the lead.

Blood lead levels are but one indication of trouble. Lead will replace calcium in soft tissues, particularly nerve tissue and in bone. It will tend to stay there. The lead absorbed and bound means that as more lead is ingested it becomes more problematic in smaller doses. Thus, toxic effects are dependent not only on the amount of lead ingested at a given time, but also on how much lead is already bound in the subject's tissues.

I spend a lot of time fishing in areas heavily used by bald eagles. They have a recognizable behavior when fishing. I have seen this behavior while observing them from a deer stand miles from water. They quite literally hunt gut piles and are pretty good at it. They have learned to respond to gunshots to locate gut piles just like crows and ravens.

We have literally centuries of history demonstrating that lead poisons people when ingested in many forms. We have no experience that tells us ingesting lead in any form is not harmful. Denying the problem is so ridiculous as to call into question the rationality of anyone making such claim.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
Tony,

Actually the PH isn't so much the determining factor as the amount of chlorine available to make lead chloride which will move the lead.

In any of the animal studies I've read, I haven't seen anything mentioned about free chlorine as a necessary factor. That said, ...oxidation of lead comes from acids that are compounds of cl, the same type acids often used to chlorinate spas or pools.

In the stomach, the digestion by the gastrc acids usually results in lowering the ph by producing Hcl. Thus, comes the necessary chlorine for oxidation. But, lead choride isn't the only lead compound produced. Over 90% of the lead that settles in bone is actually
lead phosphate.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:

Blood lead levels are but one indication of trouble. Lead will replace calcium in soft tissues, particularly nerve tissue and in bone. It will tend to stay there. The lead absorbed and bound means that as more lead is ingested it becomes more problematic in smaller doses. Thus, toxic effects are dependent not only on the amount of lead ingested at a given time, but also on how much lead is already bound in the subject's tissues.

Dead on.

The body thinks the lead is one of the other minerals necessary for good cell growth, such as calcium, zinc and iron. Mimicing the calcium is the main reason lead is highly dangerous in the systems of pregnant women because it readily gets transferred to the fetus.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
I spend a lot of time fishing in areas heavily used by bald eagles. They have a recognizable behavior when fishing. I have seen this behavior while observing them from a deer stand miles from water. They quite literally hunt gut piles and are pretty good at it. They have learned to respond to gunshots to locate gut piles just like crows and ravens.

The condors here in AZ do exactly the same thing. Several hunters on the various message boards have watched one or more condors swoop right in after someone had gutted a deer.

When we sliced and diced this topic, few months ago, I posted several photos here that one of the hunters took of condors waiting their turn to eat on tree limb within feet of a gut pile.

Every one of the condors here are radio collared and their movements are basically monitored 24/7 by both the Peregrine Fund and employees of the AZ G&FD. As soon as they suspect a bird has lead poisoning, they capture it and treat it with chelation. Many times the treatment is successful, but quite a few birds have also died.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:

We have literally centuries of history demonstrating that lead poisons people when ingested in many forms. We have no experience that tells us ingesting lead in any form is not harmful. Denying the problem is so ridiculous as to call into question the rationality of anyone making such claim.

Hey, if someone can claim they are still alive it means they haven't been affected by any lead in their system, right?

It's unfortunate the threat of black helicopters too often takes the place of common sense, objective thinking and rational discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by nugman:
So, Let me get this right. The CDC thinks there is a risk to children (and others) who eat meat that was shot with lead projectiles. No mortality rate is given.

Perhaps reading all the messages here and more of what the CDC and other medical authorities say about the LEVELS of lead poisoning and the potential health concerns will provide a clue that mortality is but the ULTIMATE result of lead poisoning, both for children or adults.

Okay, this is for all those who have eaten game meat or uplands birds all their lives that are still alive.

Hopefully none of you suffer now or will suffer any of the POTENTIAL effects of lead poisoning as listed below at some point in your lives. The erectile disfunction can be especially problematical. Enjoy.

Note: the numbers refer to various research papers. If you would like to see which one, go here.

Health Impacts of Lead Poisoning

A preliminary listing of the health effects & symptoms of lead poisoning


The following list of the symptoms and effects of lead poisoning has been compiled to raise awareness that more blood lead assessments must be done in time for further poisoning to be prevented.

After each symptom or effect, the numbers indicate the publications which refer to that effect. So far, only 58 publications have been examined of the thousands published. More will be reviewed and this list updated as time permits.

However, remember that most people who are lead poisoned present with no symptoms at all.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Children

Nervous system

Encephalopathy [brain disease] (1, 2, 3, 4, 20, 35)
Acute encephalopathy (11)
Alters function of developing brain (16)
Alters electroencephalogram [EEG] (16)
Convulsions (1, 2, 3, 4)
Cerebral Palsy (1)
Neurotransmitter release disrupted (11)
Peripheral nervous system

Peripheral nerve disturbances [reduced touch sensitivity] (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 18)
Slowed nerve conduction velocity [decreased reaction times] (2, 14, 18, 35, 39, 58)
Foot/ hand drop (1, 3)
Proprioreceptive pathways involved in balance altered (2)
Dizziness (1, 4, 38)
Growth & development

Delayed neurodevelopment [e.g. in sitting up, walking, talking] (2, 58)
Stature and growth rate reduction (1, 2, 3, 18, 35, 39)
Impaired pituitary-thyroid endocrine system (18, 21)
Osteoporosis in later years (43)
Weight loss (58)
Cognitive development

I.Q. levels decrease (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 15, 24, 35, 36, 39, 41, 58)
Cognitive function deficits (2, 26, 33)
Verbal function / linguistic deficits ( 2, 14, 15)
Learning difficulties (11, 15, 35)
Decreased educational performance (35)
Decreased reading, maths, non-verbal reasoning ability & short term memory, even at blood lead levels less than 10µg/dL (41)
Autism (7) in genetically predisposed individuals with metallothionein dysfunction (42)
Behaviour

Aggression, violence, hostility, anti-social or delinquent behaviour (8, 26)
Attention problems; distractibility, restlessness (8, 12, 15, 21, 38, 58)
Externalising and internalising behaviours (8)
Hyperactive behaviours, difficult to manage (1, 2, 8)
Inappropriate / uncontrolled behaviours similar to ADD behaviours, increased frequency (2, 11)
Irritability (1, 38)
Lethargy (1)
Increased school absenteeism (35)
Hearing

Hearing impairment; auditory sensitivity decreased (2, 3, 5, 10, 14, 18, 21, 26, 32, 35, 39, 58)
Auditory evoked response patterns altered (2)
Auditory processing altered (2, 10)
Sight

Retinal degeneration (6, 10)
Depressed sensitivity of rod photoreceptors (10)
Perceptual function deficits (2, 21)
Visuo-spatial skills deficit [eg jigsaws] (15)
Movement and muscular

Visual-motor skills deficits [hand-eye coordination] (2, 3, 15, 26)
Fine motor dysfunction (1, 2, 3)
Motor function deficits (2)
Impaired muscular strength and endurance (26)
Paralysis (3)
Somatic complaints [aches and pains] (8, 38)
Digestive system

Impaired Vitamin D metabolism [affecting bone remodelling, mineral absorption and calcium uptake] (2, 3, 6, 18, 24, 35, 38, 39, 58)
Colic (3, 25, 35)
Loss of appetite (1, 2)
Vomiting (1, 4)
Constipation, diarrhoea, anorexia (38, 58)
Abdominal cramps (39, 58)
Renal (kidneys), blood and circulation

Renal disease – acute nephropathy (14, 21, 35, 38, 58)
Queensland nephritis (14)
Anaemia (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 35, 38, 58)
Death (1, 2, 3, 4, 19, 35, 46, 58)

Perinatal Development and Reproductive Health Effects

Foetal

Preimplantation loss (3)
Miscarriage, still birth, neonatal death (2, 3, 4, 5, 18, 20, 24, 31, 47)
Reduced gestational age, preterm birth (1, 2, 3, 5, 18, 24)
Reduced birth weight (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 18, 19)
Minor congenital / chromosomal anomalies (2, 3, 4, 18, 31)
Reproductive abnormalities; disorders (5, 13, 38)
Decreased placental functioning (19)
Lead passed via placenta to foetus from mother (39, 58)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adults

Altered testicular functioning (24)
Hypospermia [low sperm count] (3, 5, 19, 47)
Asthenospermia [sperm weakness] (3, 5, 20)
Teratospermia [sperm abnormalities] (3, 5, 31)
Erectile dysfunction, impotence (3, 40)
Decreased serum testosterone (3)
Lead presence in seminal fluid (31)
Pituitary effects (31)
Sterility, infertility (5, 31, 35, 39, 58)
Effects on ovaries (19)
Decreased libido / sex drive (2, 21, 31)
Impotence (31)
Kidneys

Renal damage (2, 3, 5, 13, 14, 21, 23, 24, 28, 30, 34, 39, 58)
Chronic lead nephropathy [kidney disease] (2, 3, 14, 21, 22, 24, 38, 58)
Death from nephritis [kidney inflammation] (29, 30)
Fanconi Syndrome (14)
Gout (2, 3, 14)
Renal hypertension (17)
Increase in creatinine concentration (23)
Nervous system

Encephalopathy [brain disease] (2, 4, 20, 24, 25, 34)
Cerebrovascular diseases, stroke, cerebral haemorrhage (2, 27, 28, 29, 30)
Psychomotor impairment (13, 34)
Peripheral nervous system impairment [eg wrist-drop] (13, 24, 40, 47)
Peripheral Arterial Disease(53, 54)
Slowed nerve conduction velocity [slowed reaction time] (2, 34, 58)
Tremor (25, 26, 38, 40, 55)
Paresthesia, paralysis (25)
Cardiovascular and circulation

Hypertension, elevated blood pressure (2, 14, 17, 22, 35, 38, 40, 58)
Increased systolic blood pressure in men (35)
Cardio-toxic effects (14)
Increased risk of cardiovascular disease (17)
Coronary artery disease (2)
Anaemia; falling haemoglobin levels (2, 3, 5, 13, 24, 35, 38, 39, 47, 58)
Platelet dysfunction (2)
Increased erythrocyte [red blood cell] protoporphyrin (35)
Increased ALA in urine (34)
Increased protoporphyrin in urine (34)
Increased risk of early death from heart attack or stroke (46)
Intellectual and mental

Depression (2, 13, 38)
Anxiety (38)
Personality changes (34)
Death from violence, suicide, accidents (29)
Impaired concentration (19, 25, 34, 38)
Deficits in short term memory (2, 13, 19, 34, 38)
Cognitive function deficit (58)
Behaviour

Fatigue, muscular exhaustion (2, 19, 25, 34, 38, 47)
Sleep disturbance, insomnia (19)
Irritability, agitation, restlessness, aggression (2, 13, 19, 24, 34, 47, 58)
Sensory

Abnormalities in visuomotor coordination (2)
Abnormalities in fine motor control (2)
Deficits in visual acuity (2)
Hearing loss (18, 35, 39, 47, 58)
Somatosensory dysfunction [eg deficits in detection of vibration, changes in temperature] (2, 23)
Gastrointestinal / Digestive

Effects on gastrointestinal tract (24)
Loss of appetite (19, 40)
Nausea (19)
Constipation, diarrhoea (25, 38)
Abdominal pain, cramps (25, 34, 40, 47)
Weight loss, anorexia (25, 38)
Bone, muscle and joint

Bone marrow alterations (21)
Myalgia [muscle pain] (25, 38, 40, 58)
Pain in buttocks and cramps in the legs as early stages of peripheral arterial diseases (53, 54)
Muscular weakness (34, 38, 39, 40, 47)
Arthralgia [joint pain] (25, 38, 40, 47)
Bone marrow alterations (21)
Bone lead mobilisation during menopause leads to decreased neurocognitive performance and increased systolic blood pressure in post-menopausal women (44)
Wrist drop [the inability to hold the hand extended] (47)
Long term effect: linked to osteoporosis which has symptoms of decline in bone density and increase risk in fractures, also inhibit normal fracture healing (48, 49 ,50, 51, 52)
Other

Headaches (2, 19, 21, 40, 47)
Decreased longevity (35, 39)
Adrenal dysfunction (38)
Teeth with blueblack-lines near gum base (38, 40)
Pallor (40)
Cell damage (at blood lead level between 20 to 30 mg/dL for men and between 10 to 20 mg/dL for women) (39)
Probable human carcinogen (56, 57)
Death (2, 4, 19, 39, 46)

Increased risk of early death from cancer and all other causes (46)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Effects of lead from animal studies

Impaired attention, learning and short-term memory in primates (12)
Behavioural impairment; inflexibility in behavioural change in primates (12)
Elevated blood pressure at moderate levels (17)
Impaired immune system in new-borns of rats fed lead [greater susceptibility to asthma ] (37, 45)
Increased incidence of tumors (cancer) in rats born to mothers fed lead (45)
Altered response to stimulant drugs; attenuation of drug induced hyperactivity in rats (2)
Impaired attention, learning and short-term memory in primates (12)
Teratogenic effect causing birth deformities (4)
Low bone density in lab animals such as mice and fractures due to lead-induced osteoporosis do not heal properly (52)

quote:

Originally posted by nugman:
So, Let me get this right. The CDC thinks there is a risk to children (and others) who eat meat that was shot with lead projectiles. No mortality rate is given. ...

Hey nugman, There is a specific reason why "No mortality rate is given". Same reason why there is "no person ever being listed as even ill". NONE EXIST!

You really have to watch the folks who "Spin Words". They like to tell a partial truth about one thing - perhaps children eating Lead Paint - and then "Spin" it into Lead Bullets must be bad.

I look at the people doing the Spinning and it doesn't surprise me at all.

Reality is tough on the Spinners.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I look at the people doing the Spinning and it doesn't surprise me at all.

An estimated 200 lead poisoning-related deaths occurred from 1979 to 1998. Most were among males (74%), Blacks (67%), adults over the age of 45 (76%), and Southerners (70%).

Blood lead levels over 10 micrograms/dL can damage the brain.

I understand the CDC is about to start an awareness campaign about the detrimental learning/comprehension effects of having too much lead in one's system at one time or another. As a result, they are seeking a poster "child" to travel the country

Perhaps you might wish to submit an application? Several members here will no doubt vouch to your worthiness.

Here's the article I pulled the quote on deaths from. It's informative and written in very simple language even HC can understand -- I think.

Lead Poisoning

Definition

Lead poisoning occurs when a person swallows, absorbs, or inhales lead in any form. The result can be damaging to the brain, nerves, and many other parts of the body. Acute lead poisoning, which is somewhat rare, occurs when a relatively large amount of lead is taken into the body over a short period of time.

Chronic lead poisoning—a common problem in children—occurs when small amounts of lead are taken in over a longer period. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) defines childhood lead poisoning as a whole-blood lead concentration equal to or greater than 10 micrograms/dL.

Description

Lead can damage almost every system in the human body, and it can also cause high blood pressure (hypertension). It is particularly harmful to the developing brain of fetuses and young children. The higher the level of lead in a child's blood, and the longer this elevated level lasts, the greater the chance of ill effects.

Over the long term, lead poisoning in a child can lead to learning disabilities, behavioral problems, and even mental retardation. At very high levels, lead poisoning can cause seizures, coma, and even death. According to the National Center for Environmental Health, there were about 200 deaths from lead poisoning in the United States between 1979 and 1998. Most of the deaths were among males (74%), African Americans (67%), adults over the age of 45 (76%), and Southerners (70%).

About one out of every six children in the United States has a high level of lead in the blood, according to the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Many of these children are exposed to lead through peeling paint in older homes. Others are exposed through dust or soil that has been contaminated by old paint or past emissions of leaded gasoline. Since children between the ages of 12-36 months are apt to put things in their mouths, they are more likely than older children to take in lead. Pregnant women who come into contact with lead can pass it along to the fetus.

Over 80% of American homes built before 1978 have lead-based paint in them, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The older the home, the more likely it is to contain lead paint, and the higher the concentration of lead in the paint is apt to be. Some homes also have lead in the water pipes or plumbing. People may have lead in the paint, dust, or soil around their homes or in their drinking water without knowing it, since lead can't be seen, smelled, or tasted. Because lead doesn't break down naturally, it can continue to cause problems until it is removed.

Chronic lead poisoning

New evidence suggests that lead may be harmful to children even at low levels that were once thought to be safe (there's that "soft science"), and the risk of damage rises as blood levels of lead increase. The symptoms of chronic lead poisoning take time to develop, however. Children can appear healthy despite having high levels of lead in their blood. Over time, though, problems such as the following may arise:

learning disabilities
hyperactivity
mental retardation
slowed growth
hearing loss
headaches

It is also known that certain genetic factors increase the harmful effects of lead poisoning in susceptible children; however, these factors are not completely understood as of 2003.

Lead poisoning is also harmful to adults, in whom it can cause high blood pressure, digestive problems, nerve disorders, memory loss, and muscle and joint pain. In addition, it can lead to difficulties during pregnancy, as well as cause reproductive problems in both men and women.

More recently, chronic exposure to lead in the environment has been found to speed up the progression of kidney disorders in patients without diabetes.

Acute lead poisoning

Acute lead poisoning, while less common, shows up more quickly and can be fatal. Symptoms such as the following may occur:

severe abdominal pain
diarrhea
nausea and vomiting
weakness of the limbs
seizures
coma

Diagnosis

A high level of lead in the blood can be detected with a simple blood test. In fact, testing is the only way to know for sure if children without symptoms have been exposed to lead, since they can appear healthy even as long-term damage occurs. The CDC recommends testing all children at 12 months of age and, if possible, again at 24 months. Testing should start at six months for children at risk for lead poisoning. Based on these test results and a child's risk factors, the doctor will then decide whether further testing is needed and how often. In some states, more frequent testing is required by law.

Treatment

The first step in treating lead poisoning is to avoid further contact with lead. For adults, this usually means making changes at work or in hobbies. For children, it means finding and removing sources of lead in the home. In most states, the public health department can help assess the home and identify lead sources.

If the problem is lead paint, a professional with special training should remove it. Removal of lead paint is not a do-it-yourself project. Scraping or sanding lead paint creates large amounts of dust that can poison people in the home. This dust can stay around long after the work is completed. In addition, heating lead paint can release lead into the air. For these reasons, lead paint should only be removed by someone who knows how to do the job safely and has the equipment to clean up thoroughly. Occupants, especially children and pregnant women, should leave the home until the cleanup is finished.


Chelation therapy

If blood levels of lead are high enough, the doctor may also prescribe chelation therapy. This refers to treatment with chemicals that bind to the lead and help the body pass it in urine at a faster rate. There are four chemical agents that may be used for this purpose, either alone or in combination. Edetate calcium disodium (EDTA calcium) and dimercaprol (BAL) are given through an intravenous line or in shots, while succimer (Chemet) and penicillamine (Cuprimine, Depen) are taken by mouth. (Although many doctors prescribe penicillamine for lead poisoning, this use of the drug has not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration.)

Alternative treatment

Changes in diet are no substitute for medical treatment. However, getting enough calcium, zinc, and protein may help reduce the amount of lead the body absorbs. Iron is also important, since people who are deficient in this nutrient absorb more lead. Garlic and thiamine, a B-complex vitamin, have been used to treat lead poisoning in animals. However, their usefulness in humans for this purpose has not been proved. Nutritional, botanical, and homeopathic medicines can be administered once the source is removed, to help correct any imbalances brought on by lead toxicity.

Prognosis

If acute lead poisoning reaches the stage of seizures and coma, there is a high risk of death. Even if the person survives, there is a good chance of permanent brain damage. The long-term effects of lower levels of lead can also be permanent and severe. However, if chronic lead poisoning is caught early, these negative effects can be limited by reducing future exposure to lead and getting proper medical treatment.

There is no doubt that lead poisoning is a serious and debilitating problem. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

As your post so aptly points out, there are other environmental issues that are contributing to lead toxicity in humans.

But, what I wish to see is conclusive evidence that by the simple expedient of eating an animal killed with a lead core bullet is causing lead poisoning in people today!

I would prefer this evidence to come from a study that is not funded/supported by an organization with an agenda as was the study quoted in the original post.

That's all I ask for....

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:

But, what I wish to see is conclusive evidence that by the simple expedient of eating an animal killed with a lead core bullet is causing lead poisoning in people today!

That's all I ask for....

A reasonable request, but in order to do that would require CONTROLLED research, thus replacing the pigs with humans. I'm sure not too many folks would volunteer.

For me, it's not a question of whether consumed lead will cause elevated levels; that's a given and can't be disputed. Same with the residual lead left behind in the carcass from lead-core bullets.

So the question becomes how much remains in the processed meat that might be eaten and what is the short and long-term effects of eating it.

But even the latter is hard to quantify because there are so many different effects that can result from elevated lead levels in the body as shown through research for eons. For example, how does one measure any of these:

learning disabilities
hyperactivity
mental retardation
slowed growth
hearing loss
headaches

Yet animal studies have shown that ingesting lead in x amounts causes some of them, and actual human cases of lead poisoning have also produced many of those symptons.

By the way, that article was written in 2003 --long before lead from bullets and human consumption became a topic of discussion. That's why they aren't mentioned.

I also believe the CDC is now saying that NO level of lead in the blood of chldren is an acceptable one.

quote:

About one out of every six children in the United States has a high level of lead in the blood, according to the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Many of these children are exposed to lead through peeling paint in older homes.

Do you really, really believe every sixth child in this country eats lead based paint that's dried out and peeling off old buildings? You seriously believe that? You remember also what percentage of men were found by some researcher to be gay, right? Ten percent. That was supposed to be an official scientific finding as well. No telling what all else statistics there are out there of that same type.

As to one out of six eating peeling lead paint, I can't prove it but I'd not be shocked or surprised if the people who put that out there don't even take it seriously themselves.

I grew up in the kind of city everyone is really referring to here. And my unscientific but educated guess based on a lifetime of observance of the human species is, it was not at all a case of eating peeling lead paint causing mental retardation as much as the other way around.

Now I remember seeing lots of peeling lead paint on old homes when I was a kid (a family member had one), but I certainly don't remember anyone whatsoever eating any. That would have been unthinkable. And one out of six?

This all does bring up one big question I never could understand. Did they think it tasted good? It sure didn't look very appetizing...

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Do you really, really believe every sixth child in this country eats lead based paint that's dried out and peeling off old buildings? You seriously believe that?

Reread the two sentences. It doesn't say eating leaded paint is resposnible for EVERY 1 in six who have elevated lead levels; it says "MANY OF THESE."

One of six hunters in Goofus County killed a deer last year. Many of these hunters used a Remington rifle.

Does that translate to EVERY 1 of 6 hunters used a Reminton rifle?

Let's say there were 600 hunters, which would mean 100 killed deer. So is "many of these" 20 of 100, 30 of 100 or 100 of 100?

Plus, you failed to mention what follows:

"Others are exposed through dust or soil that has been contaminated by old paint or past emissions of leaded gasoline. Since children between the ages of 12-36 months are apt to put things in their mouths, they are more likely than older children to take in lead. "



Perhaps this will provide a better understanding of the magnitude. In IL, testing kids under 6 for elevated lead levels is MANDATORY.

In 2005, 8,123 children were found to have elevated lead levels in that state, and that was among the 275,108 actually tested. The estimate for the entire country that year was 3 million!

In 2006, the corresponding figures for IL were 6,480 out of 278,078 tested.

For each year, more than 2,000 of those found with high levels were at 15 mcg/ml and higher.

Compare them to the figures of the first year of the test -- 1993 -- when nearly 23,000 of about 275,000 tested high. Of those 9,314 had levels of 20-44 mcg/dL. The rest were between 15-19 mcg/dL.


This is the LINK for those two years.

This is the LINK for the IL Health Statistic site itself. If you scroll down the page to the CHILDHOOD LEAD POISONING SURVEILLANCE REPORT, you can view lots of pertnent info, including the stats such as above for the years from 1993 to 2006.

from the CDC:
For 1979-1988, death certificates were reviewed; lead source information was abstracted and accuracy of coding was determined. An estimated 200 lead poisoning-related deaths occurred from 1979 to 1998. Most were among males (74%), Blacks (67%), adults of age >/=45 years (76%), and Southerners (70%). The death rate was significantly lower in more recent years. An alcohol-related code was a contributing cause for 28% of adults. Only three of nine ICD-9 codes for lead poisoning were highly predictive of lead poisoning-related deaths. In conclusion, lead poisoning-related death rates have dropped dramatically since earlier decades and are continuing to decline. However, the findings imply that moonshine ingestion remains a source of high-dose lead exposure in adults.
_______________

Poorly made moonshine is the cause of most of the (very, very few) (severe)lead poisoning cases in the United States.

Imbedded lead bullets or pellets essentially never cause lead poisoning if they are in muscle. In a joint or fluid space, it is possible. Ingestions of relatively large pellets or trinkets made of metallic lead are rare causes of lead poisoning. Ingestion of lead compounds or inhalation of lead dust or vapor is much more toxic. I am aware of one case of lead poisoning in the literature from ingestion of a lead shotgun pellet, but whether that ingestion was on purpose or accidently while eating killed game was open to question, IIRC. Birds are much more likely to develop lead poisoning because of the function of their gizzard.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:

Poorly made moonshine is the cause of most of the (very, very few)lead poisoning cases in the United States.

Might well be the case, Steve. Regardless, dead is dead, no matter what caused the lead poisoning.

And no, there weren't "(very, very few)lead poisoning cases" -- those were only the ones that resulted in DEATHS.

quote:

Imbedded lead bullets or pellets essentially never cause lead poisoning if they are in muscle. In a joint or fluid space, it is possible. Ingestions of relatively large pellets or trinkets made of metallic lead are rare causes of lead poisoning. Ingestion of lead compounds or inhalation of lead dust or vapor is much more toxic. I am aware of one case of lead poisoning in the literature from ingestion of a lead shotgun pellet, but whether that ingestion was on purpose or accidently while eating killed game was open to question, IIRC. Birds are much more likely to develop lead poisoning because of the function of their gizzard.

You added the above after my last reply.

Agreed on the embedded pellets/bullets. That why I always use "rarely" in reference to them causing elevated levels. In most cases, the lead leaching is very short term until they become encapsulated by scar tissue. And yet again, the ph factor around the lead has a lot to do with the time and amount.

The only reason you do not find more about ingesting larger lead objects is because most folks aren't that stupid. Even hunters know enough to spit out pellets IF they find one while eating game birds, and certainly the same would occur with the larger parts of bullets in game meat.

BUT..we're talking much smaller particles in game meat -- some barely discernable by x-ray.


Kids are more susceptable to getting lead by chewing on larger objects that might have lead paint or lead inherent in them. Remember the old lead soldiers?

RE: Birds

Yup, I've been posting that for months. But the birds are more likely to ingest pellets, too. That's grit to them. With the condors, it's lead particles from lead-core bullets, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:

But, what I wish to see is conclusive evidence that by the simple expedient of eating an animal killed with a lead core bullet is causing lead poisoning in people today!
That's all I ask for....

Are you serious?

This level of evidence (usually requiring at least one, large randomized trial) will never be achieved unless the likes of Dr. Mengele comes again. All we will ever have in human research on lead toxicity is epidemiological studies.

Again, there is no safe lower threshold of lead levels. I strongly suspect that in children, any measurable amount of lead is subtly damaging to intellectual development.

Lead toxicity has been a know issue long before non-lead bullets were commercially available. Clearly these evil left wing nut job researchers were planning they day when the Barnes X bullet was introduced so they could hatch their grim plan to outlaw cup/core bullets and destroy our tradition of hunting.

When I see Outdoor Writer posting on this site, it brings to mind Galileo trying to convince us that the earth revolves around the sun. Come to think of it, Galileo was likely a left wing nut job trying to destroy the church with his BS science.

Wes

quote:

Originally posted by WESR:
When I see Outdoor Writer posting on this site, it brings to mind Galileo trying to convince us that the earth revolves around the sun. Come to think of it, Galileo was likely a left wing nut job trying to destroy the church with his BS science.

Wes

Believe me, I often feel like him.

quote:

Hey nugman, There is a specific reason why "No mortality ratte is given". Same reason why there is "no person ever being listed as even ill". NONE EXIST!

Do you really honest to god believe that Hotcore???

quote:

Posted 07 May 2009 03:29 Hide Post
There is no doubt that lead poisoning is a serious and debilitating problem. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

As your post so aptly points out, there are other environmental issues that are contributing to lead toxicity in humans.

But, what I wish to see is conclusive evidence that by the simple expedient of eating an animal killed with a lead core bullet is causing lead poisoning in people today!

I would prefer this evidence to come from a study that is not funded/supported by an organization with an agenda as was the study quoted in the original post.

If you accept that lead poisoning is serious and debilitating, then you need only need to look at the lead levels that cause serious and debilitating effect. The CDC study of the residents of ND demonstrates levels in adults that track consumption of game, and their standards do not allow any lead intake for children/pregnant women. With that basis you either have to prove lead does not accumulate, that the individuals consuming lead killed game eliminate the lead faster than they consume it or accept that lead will cause you trouble.

Unless you can prove it isn't toxic.

But...lead is always toxic. There are levels which may not cause clinical symptoms, but there is no such thing as non toxic lead, nor lead which does not accumulate. As I stated earlier, blood lead levels are not all that good an indicator of total body burden.

You can assume that you have no current lead burden. You can assume you have a high burden. But... You cannot really know what that total burden is accurately. You can exceed a level that produces deficit without consuming a huge amount of lead in a single sitting.

Simply put denying lead toxicity requires denying more than 1000 years of science. We have sound understanding of this science. We know of no way to safely consume lead. Lead can be and often enough is absorbed through the skin.

Now, as for eating game, The Minnesota study found that the lead particles were mostly neither visible not palpable, and were dispersed as much as foot or more from the wound. Even extreme trimming rigor won't eliminate the lead completely. Unless you'd like to undertake disproving that study. Slip a cup and core bullet between two ribs on the way in and the way out and destroy the heart and lungs. When you gut the animal the "red soup" washes down into the abdominal cavity when you release the diaphram. Hang the deer and the remainder slowly drains out through the pelvis. Right over the tenderloins!

We all get to choose. How much lead do we want to put into our bodies. We do not get to choose how much lead we put into anyone else's body nor into an animal's body as a side effect of what we do. Nor more than we get to put any other toxin into animals indiscriminately.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:

quote:

Hey nugman, There is a specific reason why "No mortality rate is given". Same reason why there is "no person ever being listed as even ill". NONE EXIST!

Do you really honest to god believe that Hotcore???

Mr Miles, Yes indeed. Remember the discussion is about people being made sick or Killed from "Game Killed with Lead Bullets". It has nothing at all to do with all the whining and blow-harding the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal supposed writer-Hacks of the world want to Spin it into.

We have a bit more than 500 years of Game Killed with Lead here in the USA and still - not a single person can be found by the CDC to have been made sick or Killed from eating Game Killed with Lead.

It was only a couple of weeks ago the Killer of the Week was "Blackened Meat". Last week the Swine Flu was going to Kill everyone, people were urged to stay at home, schools were to be closed, people shouldn't go to work. Then a Magical Event happened - biden said he'd encourage his family to stay out of large groups of people, subways and airplanes! Oh my gosh, just what people were already doing. But it threw the obummmmmmers tell-everyone-what-they-should-do staff in a major Spin Festival - and Sha-Zamm, now the Swine Flue is to be ignored.

Same thing everytime the clinton mob is in control of Washington - the Liberal Spinners feel empowered to tell us all what to do.

Only real problem with the Game Killed with Lead is the Reality - no one hurt or Killed from eating it - ever(or 500 years worth of doing it in the USA)!
-----

Mr. Miles, Why do you think the Leftist Spinners just don't quote directly from the CDC Study that shows people who consumed Lead Killed Game get sick or die? Because it doesn't exist???

How many people do you know that have become sick or Killed from eating Game Killed with Lead? I'll guess - you don't know anyone.
-----

This all gets back to trying to Price Shooting and Hunting out of the average Blue Collar guys billfold. Check the price of the Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) when compared to good old Lead and you will see few people could afford to go shoot, plink and practice with the PCBs. And the funny thing is, some of the Hacks are so poorly educated and ignorant that they support what will put them out of the writing business. Of course in those instances it is no real loss at all.

quote:

Mr. Miles, Why do you think the Leftist Spinners just don't quote directly from the CDC Study that shows people who consumed Lead Killed Game get sick or die? Because it doesn't exist???

Because if you'd pull your head out of your ass long enought to look at what they did you would find out the were looking for blood lead levels in response to consuming game. Not people killed by eating game. If you were not so lacking in ambition you would get off your dead ass and go do the research of the case files published and you would find people sicked and in all probability killed by eating game killed with lead. There may not be many killed, but there are people sickened by it if you care to look.

You can either sit and bitch or you can act. Choose.

I need to get some work done, so this is my last post on either of the two threads about this topic.

"Ignorance can be cured; stupidity is forever."



Lead, Ageing and Death

By Ewan MacAulay McDonnell, The LEAD Group Inc
[LID 9496] Updated 20 April 2008

When old people die, who ever asks the question – "Did lead kill this person?"

As you age you become more likely to suffer from heart disease, heart attack, stroke, renal problems, and Alzheimer's disease or tremors but what you may not realise is that these symptoms are connected with having lead in your system.

With so many people having higher blood lead levels in the past than today, it is little wonder that we associate ageing with many of the effects of lead poisoning, but especially:- poor memory and hearing, falls (from loss of balance), reduced sperm count, loss of libido, strokes and heart attacks (from raised blood pressure), tooth decay, and Alzheimer’s disease. It is fair to say that all these effects of lead add up to a reasonable description of what we think of as "normal" ageing and it is certainly time that we measured blood lead levels in older people who display these symptoms before discounting their symptoms as just "a natural part of getting old". (14)

Lead gathers in the body as you are exposed to it over time. There is no safe level of lead within the body and the threshold for safe lead levels has gradually been lowered over the decades as data has improved and further research has been conducted. The US CDC currently lists the threshold as < 10 µg/dL level, however more recent research is showing even levels as low as 2.5 µg/dL have a detrimental health impact, more so than increases from 10-20 µg/dL or 20-30 µg/dL. (16)

According to a recent Archives of Internal Medicine article: "Blood lead and exposure to lead throughout life has also been associated with increased death rates in older people where "after adjustment for potential confounders, individuals with baseline blood lead levels of 20 to 29 µg/dL (1.0-1.4 µmol/L) [two to three times the CDC goal to be below 10 µg/dL, but much less than the level that a worker must be moved off a lead task – 50 µg/dL] had a 46% increase in mortality (all causes), 39% increased circulatory mortality, and 68% increased cancer mortality compared with those with blood lead levels of less than 10 µg/dL (<0.5 µmol/L)." (14)

In fact a blood lead level of 2 µg/dL has been connected in an American study by the CDC with higher rates of cardiovascular disease. A blood lead level of 3.63 µg/dL or greater was connected with an 89% greater rate of death from heart attack, and a 250% greater chance of stroke (15). A higher rate of Arteriosclerosis has been found in adults with Blood lead levels of greater than 10 µg/dL. (18)

Lead becomes stored within your bones, which acts like a sort of Reservoir. (17) From there, it causes a second round of negative impacts on Haem synthesis, vitamin D metabolism, and kidney function. Initially Lead is a neurotoxin causing similar symptoms to Alzheimer's disease and for similar reasons and hence is associated with it (12; 3). If you have been exposed to it as a child changes in gene expression will create additional health problems for you later in life, including the build up of proteins in the brain in a pattern similar to Alzheimer's disease (4). Cumulative lead exposure is also linked to poorer performance in learning, memory and visual-motor tasks for older subjects and this negative impact can be exacerbated by stress (20). This may be because early-childhood lead exposure has led to poorer-school performance or because lead may accumulate in the myelin sheath that surrounds some neurons in the brain, connecting it to neuro-degenerative diseases. (19) In one recent study the mean Blood lead level for subjects was 3.5 µg/dL and tibia lead level was 18.7 µg/dL. The higher tibia lead levels were consistently associated with worse cognitive function in tested subjects. (21)

Another neurological disease that may be associated with Lead is Essential Tremor (ET). Essential Tremor is an incurable age-related disease whose symptoms involve tremors of the hands and head. At present its cause is unknown. Laboratory animals and humans exposed to high levels of lead have displayed similar symptoms. Pb blood levels in ET patients have been found to be higher than in controls. ET is a very common neurological disease in subjects over 60, and can be as prevalent as up to 20.5% of the elderly. (17)

As well as Lead speeding up brain ageing (1; 2), as you age your bones demineralise, meaning they release lead back into your blood stream. (13; 8) This means the toxic effect of lead exposure in younger years, such as industrial work dealing with lead substances, such as lead-based paint or fuel containing lead will add to any lead exposure you are currently experiencing and cause a cumulative impact on your health. (16) Adults who have been exposed to lead in the workplace and at home throughout their lives are more susceptible to lead-related health risks such as cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure (hypertension), stroke, renal failure and osteoporosis. (5; 6; 7; 9; 10)

The implications of lead exposure early in life on menopausal women have also been investigated; indicating that exposure to lead throughout life may result in heightened lead levels in blood throughout menopause. Studies have also found that Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) had a negative effect on blood lead levels, where women using HRT had lower blood lead levels than postmenopausal women who report not using HRT. (4)

There is also a fact-sheet which comprehensively describes the effects of lead poisoning on various groups of people, sorted into ‘children’, ‘prenatal development and reproductive health effects’ and ‘adults’. Listed within these groups are implications of lead poisoning in categories including nervous system, peripheral nervous system, growth and development, cognitive development, behaviour, hearing, sight, movement and muscular, digestive system, renal, blood and circulation, foetal, kidneys, cardiovascular and circulation, intellectual and mental, sensory, bone, muscle and joint and death. Also listed are the effects of lead known from animal studies. This fact sheet can be found at www.lead.org.au/fs/fst7.html. (11)

Okay, so I lied in my last message. But this is REALLY my last message on this topic.

I had found this very informative paper on the WebMD Emedicine site yesterday but forgot to post the link to it. So in an effort to help with the first part of "Ignorance can be cured; stupidity is forever," here it is. Enjoy.


Lead Poisoning

P.S. HC -- if you need any help with the big words, use an online dictionary to find their meanings.

I have to disagree about lead being implicated with ET and I also disagree that its cause is unknown. In fact the two of those things said together are an inconsistency to start with.

If you do the research and even just talk with experienced Internists and Neurologists you actually will find broad agreement that ET is an inherited genetic disorder. I could go on at length about it, but its on-set is usually sudden and very frequently coincides with certain kinds of emotional trauma such as the loss or medical crisis of a close family member. It is also fair to say that someone is much greater at risk to develop it later in life if they happen to be unfortunate in being born with an unusually sensitive nervous system. Early hints of a personality susceptable to it can be obvious from puberty on.

It is incurable, lasts for life and slowly worsens somewhat in older years, but generally though annoying is not debilitating. It is also treatable. And it occurs in many, many persons both men and women who've never hunted, never been involved in any manner whatsoever with guns, never eaten lead paint, have rarely if ever eaten any wild game whatsoever and never worked, handled or played around lead and didn't have parents who did any of those things.

Your use or whoever used the words "that may be associated with" can frankly be challenged on this.

One more thing, then I want to be done also posting on this kind of topic. If someone wants to delve into a legit hunting related "illness" I've got a project for you.

How about finding out if excessive viewing of outdoor websites on computer monitors causes early onset of eye cataracts. Because that's what I have and it's threatening my continued shooting career. How's about researching that...and write a paper on it, and have it ready by tomorrow..

But please, please, just don't say it's from eating wildgame.

Mr. Miles, I just checked any you are not in my chain of command, so I'll continue to do as I see fit.

Darn shame the real authority on the subject(the CDC) just doesn't agree with all you Spinners and Ultra-Radical Leftist-Liberals, which means the bottom line is no one has been made sick or Killed from eating Game Killed with Lead Bullets. All the rest of your all's blowharding, name calling, spinning, misleading, and ignorance is irrelevant to the topic.

Just as I said in the beginning, it is a bunch of designed to make shooting and hunting way too expensive.

And Mr. Miles if you don't like it - tough cookies.

quote:

Darn shame the real authority on the subject(the CDC) just doesn't agree with all you Spinners and Ultra-Radical Leftist-Liberals, which means the bottom line is no one has been made sick or Killed from eating Game Killed with Lead Bullets. All the rest of your all's blowharding, name calling, spinning, misleading, and ignorance is irrelevant to the topic.

Before you go calling someone a spinner ultra radical leftist or you just might find someone on the other end of that willing to ask you to stand up and defend that statement or wear a sign that says you're a lying sack of shit.

quote:

Darn shame the real authority on the subject(the CDC) just doesn't agree with all you Spinners and Ultra-Radical Leftist-Liberals

Problem for you is that the CDC apparently does agree that ingesting lead fragments contained in venison results in the absorbtion of lead into the bloodstream causing an elevated blood lead level.

You virtually ignore the risk of that to pregnant women and children in your zeal to protect lead cored bullets.

And you falsely claim victimhood,

quote:

All the rest of your all's blowharding, name calling, spinning, misleading, and ignorance is irrelevant to the topic.

When you yourself are guilty of what you allege.

Nothing new there.

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:

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Darn shame the real authority on the subject(the CDC) just doesn't agree with all you Spinners and Ultra-Radical Leftist-Liberals

Problem for you is that the CDC apparently does agree that ingesting lead fragments contained in venison results in the absorbtion of lead into the bloodstream causing an elevated blood lead level....

Reality shows it is just the opposite as shown in this bit of info from a CDC Study of folks eating Game Killied with Lead shows they actually have "Lower AVERAGE Lead Levels" than the people who do not eat Game Killed with Lead.

And guess who posted the great info?