TJ were not supposed to know things like that, or any of the other eyewitness accounts of such things as ceremonies where hundreds of buffalo were killed just for their tongue and after everyone had eaten their fill, the rest was fed to the dogs.

So much for the hi-jack of the topic. If what the person did was legal, and wants to refer to it as a "trophy", that is his bidness.

Do I think SCI has done good stuff for hunting in general, yes.

Do I think recognising and scoring game animals taken inside a high fenced property is a good thing, not really.

Do I think things are going to change, Yes I Do, with our increasing world population and the political instability in said world, I think we are going to see most hunting get reduced to high fence operations. It isn't going to happen over night, but I believe that it will take place during the next 25 years.

People in our modern world have beame enamored with "Instant Gratifacation and Success" and they don't care how they get it, or how much they pay to get it.

Shooting a big super buck on a game farm and having a world recognised hunting/conservation group grant that animal trophy status, fulfills that need in that person and now they can move onto something else. Just my opinions.

I find the "bought the deer" and "lazy rich hunter" statements interesting as well.

Don't try to tell me for one second that money doesn't equal game!

With big dollars you can fly to where there are huge numbers of animals. Also you can buy large tracks of land in areas with the highest game populations and create huge food plots to fatten them up!

And more power to those who can afford to hunt when and where they want!

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:

Was it hunting when the indians killed buffalo by the thousands?

That is the stupidest statement here today. It is obvious you don't know your history. The Indians only took what they needed to survive. It was the White settlers and shooters from the trains and the buffalo hunters that decimated the buffalo. It was intended to starve the Native Americans.

There know you have a little knowledge.

The Indians use to stampede Buffalo over cliffs, or into canyon walls to kill a lot of them quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
To me, more important questions would be--

1)"Has the animal in question been raised or fed in such a manner that it has lost its fear of man?"
or
2) "Has the animal been conditioned to predictably come to an artificial food source?"

If the answer to either question is "yes", then it ain't much of a hunting trophy no matter High Fence or not. A truthful answer to these questions from a game farm manager (or corn-feeder-owner) might prove difficult to obtain.

SGraves155, I think you are right.

You are right, George Roof. Glad someone spoke up to these jealous, mean-minded, little turds.

One inalienable right exists and several of you continue to fortify it: I can be a dumbass anytime I'd like and because I only make it more obvious is my priviledge.

First things first. The dumbass remark about Indian hunters. Obviously some of you were educated by the New York Times and never bothered to open a history book. In 1863, after the Civil War, Congress mandated that the Army begin an extermination of the American bison by any means necessry. Congress deemed this as the only feasible way to drive those rebelling Indian tribes on to reservations where they would be fed government (sometimes rotten) beef). Einsten, check that out with the Library of Congress before you start mouthing off it didn't happen. Indians "hunted" in the same way that Alaskans now use "subsistance hunting". It wasn't a pastime, it was for survival and those of you too fat to get off the couch wouldn't know about that anyway.

Next is "game farms". In the US, a huge percentage of bird hunters have no other choice to find game. Don't play with words here, a "game farm" is a game farm.

"Fair Chase" is just another animal rights buzz word that some of you've bought into. It's a way to look down your nose at someone else. I don't live where I can look over "1600 acres" and I certainly couldn't hunt them in one day if I had them here. No one ever confuses THE record book with these others, and the fact that others PAY for and want to use them is their prerogative. There are several "exotic" record books and then there's Rowland & Ward, along with Buckmasters and a few others. I don't get that excited of having my name plastered in any of them, but if the person taking the animal does, he's certainly no threat to me and I doubt my character is so unblemished that SOMEONE would want to take exception to it. I don't notice a single one of you mentioning tha several animals in Boone & Crockett were actually road kills.

S Graves, you definition is too broad when taken literally. If you're sitting beside a 40 acre soybean field in the middle of the woods, those deer are certainly "conditioned to come to an artificial food source". You simply can't have it both ways.

And Crazyhorse, you're up to your usual, but if you expect to add ANY validity to what you're saying, tell these undereducated scholars exactly how Crazyhorse died. He and his band were literally starved to the point where the Army "promised" him that if he came into the reservation, he'd be fed and not punished. Like the dumb Indian you're trying to paint, he did and was promptly arrested. He was kept in a shed for days and when he became vocal about his conditions and became defiant, a WHITE soldier shot him in cold blood. I don't know where you got that about the humps and the tongues, but any good reference book on the lifestyle of the plains Indian will show you just how uneducated you are about that remark.

GeoffM24 ,Tembo , TJ, Crazyhorseconsulting didn't you learn anything with your 8th grade educations?
Although you posted that the fur industry did put a big dent into the slaughter of the Bison, you left out a very important part of history. The United States Government order the slaughter of the Bison to starve the Native Americans and force them to go to the reservations.
All you guys that don't know a thing about history, come here and shoot off your uneducated mouths and have no idea what you are talking about.
If you want to know the truth, do some research before you make yourself's look more foolish than you already have. I refuse to have any further debate with any of you, it is not worth the effort. Better a fool out in the open than one in a closet.

If you want to get on game "farms", I am very well aquainted with a local family that high fenced 500 acres and stocks it with game animals for no other purpose but to me shot. They are making a killing (no pun intended). They buy the animals at sales and turn them out. Rich folks come in and "hunt" the newly released animals. They do cut the ear tags out before the photos.LOL!

the fact of the matter is boone and crock,yes i said crock, picks and chooses what they want in there book. they are about as consistent as the weather man. who cares what they do.

paying big bucks to kill a deer that you have sellected before the hunt just ain't right. its not hunting ,its killin plain and simple. most of these places the stands are set up at feeders and they know when and which deer will be coming . thats a real hunt ,man.

i think i'll stay here in va. and hunt where the deer roam free.

quote:

I don't notice a single one of you mentioning tha several animals in Boone & Crockett were actually road kills.

George, I did a web search on this and while I never found anything that said outright that a B&C record book deer was a roadkill. If B&C did find this to be true I hope they stripped the animal from the record books. I'd like some more info on this so if you could direct me to where you found it I would appreciate it.

quote:

S Graves, you definition is too broad when taken literally. If you're sitting beside a 40 acre soybean field in the middle of the woods, those deer are certainly "conditioned to come to an artificial food source". You simply can't have it both ways.

I don't think that a 40 acre soybean fields primary purpouse is to attract and maintain a deer herd in a hunting areas. You just don't find very many 40 acre fields by themselves, generally the are in a location that has many other fields in the vicinity. I hunt fields because that is where the deer are at but mine are much larger than 40 acres, but of course the region I live in requires larger fields to produce the hay and grain to support my families cattle ranch. Cattle are the primary reason we plant fields not deer, they are just a by product. We just don't get the rainfall or have irrigation to rasie enought feed to keep our fields smaller than a few hundred acres.

The thing is deer don't have to come to a particular area to feed like the 40 acre bean field you mentiond if they are in an eviroment free from fences designed to keep them in and there are other abundant food sources in the area. I will agree that food plots, feeders, trace mineral blocks, and other forms of bait are designted to keep deer in the hunting areas and more artifical than a farmers field. To clear, plant, and maintain a 40 acre field in a wooded area would require more than what a single hunter could do on just a few weekends during the growing seasons on a lease or property. Plus the investment in equipment to work 40 acres would be on a larger scale than just an ATV and a few implements designed for it, and probably more than the average hunter could afford.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
[QUOTE]I don't notice a single one of you mentioning tha several animals in Boone & Crockett were actually road kills.

George, I did a web search on this and while I never found anything that said outright that a B&C record book deer was a roadkill. If B&C did find this to be true I hope they stripped the animal from the record books. I'd like some more info on this so if you could direct me to where you found it I would appreciate it.
[QUOTE]
I just looked on B&C's website and saw the World Record Non typical Whitetail was a pickup from Missouri. While it wasn't hit by a car, the deer was killed running into a chain link fence afetr it crossed a busy highway.

George Roof, the key word was "predictably".

IIRC,you can "educate" a monkey to fly a ship into space,but when he gets back ,he is still a monkey.
George ,you say more without actually saying anything,than anyone short of a liberal democrat running for office.
Seems that "fair chase" buzzword you try to poo-poo as unimportant,is all over the boone and crockett website.Must be important to someone,just not you.Too bad, we could have used your help,I'm sure the bullshit is only going to get deeper from here on .
And even if they are roadkill,at least someone hasnt been feeding and breeding them for antler mass for years.JMHO

To continue the highjacking of the original thread......
hawk...Thanks for your indepth and informative information on the historical data about Indian hunting methods.
Your wrong.
Did you ever hear of Bonfire Shelter, Lantry Texas or Slaughter Creek, Montana?
Buffalo Jumps were an easy way for indians to get food.

Boone and Crockett will enter roadkill animals in the "Book." It's called "Pick Up." The B&C book is a record of the animal, not the hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
"Fair Chase" is just another animal rights buzz word that some of you've bought into. It's a way to look down your nose at someone else.

That statement is simply a crock-o-you-know-what. Fair Chase is a fairy well defined concept.

I suggest folks read "Beyond Fair Chase" by Jim Posewitz.

I left the last copy I had at an State Parks public use cabin here in Alaska. This cabin gets used by greenies and hunters alike. It was to remind hunters to show some respect for their quarry and to remind anti-hunters that there are those folks who respect wildlife resources.



MM

George,

I'm surprised at you.......fair chase perpetrated by animal rights folks as a "buzz word?"......for someone that is so enamored with Theodore Roosevelt, that's a monumental change of course, even for you.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Skyjacker,
Tell us about how this trophy was taken. With details please.

Perry

Perry, that's not what I am arguing. You have to set a standard and live with it. My standard is hunting in high fence enclosures that are of this size and would restrict natural movement of deer is not hunting(And 1600 acres is small, 30,000 and you have another story entirely). 1600 acres is too small. And the deer are impeded upon time and again are more than likely more accustomed to human activity.

I know people who have hunted in impoundments like this. You are with a guide who is making quotes on deer. "ahhh, that animal is $10,000... that animal is $6000". Sounds more like shopping than hunting.

Unfortunately its a personal decision for me or you to place a restriction on what we find to be acceptable hunting conditions. In the wild? 30,000 acres high fenced? 1500 acres high fenced?

In reality, its like any other organization. you place rules on things and don't allow exceptions. Boone and Crocket, while I'm not a fan of their actual scoring system, I am a fan of their integrity to the sport of hunting. I cannot say that SCI has that same integrity if they allow for a trophy from a high fenced enclosure of this size.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

quote:

I don't notice a single one of you mentioning tha several animals in Boone & Crockett were actually road kills.

George, I did a web search on this and while I never found anything that said outright that a B&C record book deer was a roadkill. If B&C did find this to be true I hope they stripped the animal from the record books.

Well B&C does have bucks that were not hunted listed in their books. The Hole in the Horn buck is the most legendary of them. It was found dead next to some train tracks in Mizzu I believe.

That said, it also has an asterisk as to being recognized as a free animal that was not harvested but killed by a train. I don't think the B&C books try to pass off the Hole in the horn buck as anything but a roadkill. Its considered "found" not "harvested".

Who cares. The buck in question will be listed as one of the biggest set of antlers around. Doesn't mean an organization who tries to recognize free roaming deer need to honor that deer.

I would have shot the deer in a heartbeat and probably even if one of y'all was riding it. Nice deer. Who give a sht if it's scoreable.

quote:

I would have shot the deer in a heartbeat and probably even if one of y'all was riding it. Nice deer. Who give a sht if it's scoreable.

But how much is that buck worth to you ? Because that's what it really comes down to in this case doesn't it ?

I'm sure somebody can grow you one similar to it given the economic incentive.

You can also go to Nevada and have sex with a woman who looks like a Victorias Secret model. But that'll cost you too.

Ovis, we both know Teddy isn't running the bureaucracy the B&C stands for now. As I've stated before (like many things, some of these guys don't have a clue anyway), I hunted a Kansas concessions some years back. During conversations I found that a certain segment of the concession was "off limits". When question further, I was told that a noted TV personality was hunting the next week and a big buck had been patterned there and being "saved" so it would get on video. FAIR CHASE????

In Idaho, I hunted the Bitterroot with an unscrupulous outfitter by accident. We say nothing for days and during an afternoon of glassing, I saw a huge herd about 5 miles away. Remember this is wilderness land open tot he public and part of a concession he had. I told the guide and he informed me that 2 high-rent hunters were coming into camp that night and the spot had been "saved" for them.

The new #1 desert bighorn (I THINK, I'm not sure about his position but the story is true) was scouted for WEEKS by paid "friends" of a hunter who spent 2 days there in order to fill his tag.

If you really think that Bill Jordan, Jackie Bushman, Bob Foulkrod, and a dozen others, some with their faces on those stupid commercials touting "always fair chase" have to endure what you and I do, you're sniffing too much gunpowder. And as for the soybean fields and the rationalizing some of you are wont to do, I'm assuming when you see a heavy deer trail into a certain section of that field, you immediately pack up and leave the area???

jb, your avatar seems to show a geek with a parachute. Maybe you better read you subject line and grab for that ripcord.

Well, apart from history lessons on Indians and Teddy Roosevelt, and absent questions of sexual orientation and fair chase, that animal is going to make a heckuva mount.

George,Im not here to try to represent myself as a expert on anything.Im just having fun.
You on the other hand,seem to have an agenda to push.A quick look back sees you jumping from one argument to another to another where you try to set yourself up as expert.It would also seem,more than one other member here uses the word "pompous" to describe you.I Wonder why?

quote:

In Idaho, I hunted the Bitterroot with an unscrupulous outfitter by accident. We say nothing for days and during an afternoon of glassing, I saw a huge herd about 5 miles away. Remember this is wilderness land open tot he public and part of a concession he had. I told the guide and he informed me that 2 high-rent hunters were coming into camp that night and the spot had been "saved" for them.

This isn't the first time you mentioned this hunt on this forum. What did you do about it? If all you ever did is vent your frustrations out on this forum then shame on you. I would have demanded a full refund if I was spending my hard earned money on a hunt like this. If I didn't get the refund I would have at least filed a law suit against the Outfitter I used.

quote:

The new #1 desert bighorn (I THINK, I'm not sure about his position but the story is true) was scouted for WEEKS by paid "friends" of a hunter who spent 2 days there in order to fill his tag.

I use friends for scouting reports as well as the locals whenever I can get one to divulge info. I scout for myself as well if I'm able to, somtimes I can't and I ask people to do it for me. I'm just lucky enough to have people willing to do it for me without the pay, but if they wanted a little somthing like gas money or beer in their fridge I wouldn't object to that expense.

quote:

And as for the soybean fields and the rationalizing some of you are wont to do, I'm assuming when you see a heavy deer trail into a certain section of that field, you immediately pack up and leave the area???

Are you not rationalizing in your own way? I've seen very few poster as agressive as you to put down a opinion you don't like. At the very least you keep the forum entertaining.

Those who have seen my previous thread know that I took a bull elk on a ranch with a handgun. To me, it made no difference in walking 100s of acres here or on public land out west. Either way the fundamentals had to be there; not get seen or spook the animal, wait for the shot and control your aim. A guide out west gets paid big bucks to "find" the trophies. I dont see the difference in paying that same amount for some place closer.

Like I said, there are many hunters here in KY that walk out their back door, see 10+ pointers and shoot them off their porch. They consider that hunting and they can go into the books as well....

quote:

Originally posted by Gentleman Jack:
Those who have seen my previous thread know that I took a bull elk on a ranch with a handgun. To me, it made no difference in walking 100s of acres here or on public land out west. Either way the fundamentals had to be there; not get seen or spook the animal, wait for the shot and control your aim. A guide out west gets paid big bucks to "find" the trophies. I dont see the difference in paying that same amount for some place closer.

Like I said, there are many hunters here in KY that walk out their back door, see 10+ pointers and shoot them off their porch. They consider that hunting and they can go into the books as well....

Well put.

George,

Jordan, Bushman, Foulkrod, etc., don't mean much to me.....I seldom watch TV(news & UNC basketball)......You still haven't addressed the term "fair chase" as a "buzzword" for the animal rights folks......c'mon George, am I a closet anti and don't realize it......should I stay or should I go?

Your sheep example is ironic as, during every sheep season I've participated in up here, planes fly and spot sheep, land, drop off hunters that, by law, are SUPPOSED to wait until the next day to take any game.....it's just plain wrong and, in my eyes, unethical.....but the sheep CAN run away, usually across several drainages(read several miles) that are bordered by high mountain passes(no fences)that the sheep go up and over on a dead run.

Loss of habitat and places to hunt in the lower48 is rapidly advancing.....pretty soon, shooting behind a fence will not be just a choice, it'll be your only choice.....keep waiting for orgs like SCI to save it all for you.....sit on the couch and read all about what they do for you in the rags they provide for their members......when it's gone, they'll tell you why you lost it.....hunters better clean up their own house or someones going to do it for us.

Joe

The fundamental base of modern wildlife management is that the wildlife resource belongs to the people, equally.

Private ownership of elk, whitetail deer, mule deer, sheep, whatever, goes against this concept, and leans back towards midevil times when the wildlife belongs to the landowner and no one else. Only the rich or privledged got to hunt.

So call this modern "game farming" just what it is. FARMING. Most of the critters have ear tags, they are grown for slaughter, confined behind a fence, in many instances fed supplements and special feed to grow to exceptionally large size. Does it matter that it goes to a slaughter house to be euthanized, or shot by someone with a rifle, cross bow, what ever? There is no difference between a whitetail behind a high fence, and a cow behind a four strand barbed wire fence. Their purposes are exactly the same.

I feel sorry for those of you who do hunt behind a high fence. Funny thing is, that most of these hunts cost more than a real hunt in wild country, pursuing free ranging wildlife.

Just going for that big head to feed that big ego eh???

MG

quote:

Originally posted by Madgoat:
The fundamental base of modern wildlife management is that the wildlife resource belongs to the people, equally.

Private ownership of elk, whitetail deer, mule deer, sheep, whatever, goes against this concept, and leans back towards midevil times when the wildlife belongs to the landowner and no one else. Only the rich or privledged got to hunt.

So call this modern "game farming" just what it is. FARMING. Most of the critters have ear tags, they are grown for slaughter, confined behind a fence, in many instances fed supplements and special feed to grow to exceptionally large size. Does it matter that it goes to a slaughter house to be euthanized, or shot by someone with a rifle, cross bow, what ever? There is no difference between a whitetail behind a high fence, and a cow behind a four strand barbed wire fence. Their purposes are exactly the same.

I feel sorry for those of you who do hunt behind a high fence. Funny thing is, that most of these hunts cost more than a real hunt in wild country, pursuing free ranging wildlife.

Just going for that big head to feed that big ego eh???

MG

No need to feel sorry. Of all the posters here, there is a 99.99% chance that I will never meet any one of them. Their opinions dont do much for me at all. For every 1 person that makes fun of ranch hunts on this thread, 10 people (including other hunters) compliment me on my mount/trophy elk. Another 10 beg for the meat I butchered.

quote:

Originally posted by Madgoat:
Funny thing is, that most of these hunts cost more than a real hunt in wild country, pursuing free ranging wildlife.

Just going for that big head to feed that big ego eh???

MG

More in monetary terms - probably A LOT LESS in actual time. They have the animal pre-selected, or they've paid a flat-fee for a particular score. Fly in . . . have someone point out their animal . . jerk the trigger . . . and go on your merry way. Someone else will handle the drudgery for you. Your "trophy" will be mailed to you ASAP and your place in the great white hunter annals (SCI book) is assured.




MM

Actually, Jack, I'm not making fun of your hunt, in fact it disgusts me. Does the big bull on your wall in any way reflect your abilities as a hunter.....?????? Probably not.

The only thing you can thank game farms and canned hunts for is:

Negative press in the media towards all hunters.

Importation of wildlife species that directly or out compete native wildlife species.

Vectors of disease like CWD and tuberculosis due to transfering animals around from one farm to another and so on. Kinda like a hooker in Vegas...

Hybridization in native species due to escapees. (ex. red deer and elk)

I could go on and on....game farms are a huge threat to native wildlife populations and hunting as we know it today, and SCI is a big reason why, especially when they applaud putting these glorified livestock animals in some book to boost egos.

MG

This is a little off subject ,but I used to guide and something that really pisses me off are the people that kill game and only want the head antlers and hide and give the meat to whoever.I will not kill something I won,t eat.I have never understood this,and I would bet that most of this meat is wasted.w/regards

Taylor, let me answer you first. The crooks name was R.J. Lewy and he ran what I recall as "Sunset Outfitters". If you had my book you could read a bit about his shenanigans, but they wouldn't touch them all. When we left, I wrote both the Idaho Outfitters Association and the Idaho Fish & Wildlife. Subsequent correspondence allowed me to learn that HE had already had his guiding license revoked and it was his WIFE who was the legal guide/outfitter. I wondered why she was in camp, but never suspected anything. She seldom left her tent. The F&W people were more than a little interested and he was later charged with bringing in a European hunter where a bald eagle, a wolf, and a mountain goat were shot and their skins were attempted to be smuggled out of the state and out of the US. I don't know if he got jail time, but I know that eagle had to put a dent in any hopes of having any money.


I PERSONALLY wouldn't allow someone to do the scouting that the big ram had done. These people put the animal to bed the night before it was killed. The "hunter" was nothing other than a "shooter" in that case and I think it reeks for some group to claim "fair chase".

Maybe it is entertaining to you, but when you use the term "game farm" it encompasses too much area to be anything but epithetical. It sounds just like "Saturday night special" and I doubt a one of you here believes in that term. I don't call the "pick-a-pet" zoos "game farms, but I know places like the YO ranch being compared to the feed lots in Pennsylvania is nothing short of ridiculous.

Madgoat, to some degree I can agree with your statements. The first sentence is unequivical but you start converging the parameters. All of our farm animals and fowl at one time were "wild" and in many parts of the South today, feral animals still exist. The Ringneck pheasant never existed here to begin with and in New Mexico today, the gemsbok roams a plain on another continent as well. We have more axis deer and black bucks in America than in their native land. I honestly wonder if there's such a thing as a wild bobwhite quail left in America. Maybe you live in Utopia, but 90% of all hunting along the East Coast is done on private LEASED land. Hunting is very rapidly becoming a rich man's sport whether we like it or not. And for me to even try and hunt out west, the liberal weasel Harry Reid, had to include non-resident license protection under the military spending bill to make it out reach for many of us.
And finally Ovis, I thought I had defined my perception of "fair chase". I honestly don't believe those two words can be fit together. Unless we begin hunting like the wolf and the cougar, chasing the animal down and biting its windpipe until it suffocates, nothing man can do is "fair" They say that integrity is what you show when no one is looking. I think "fair chase" is a putrid attempt to dictate integrity. Those of us who have it won't have it violated for any reason and we don't have to have it defined to us personally. Those that don't have it will paint us a pretty picture to our faces and still leave us standing at the alter. Maybe a lifetime in the military made me more callous, but I don't think, even with the treats of that service we were ever able to mandate integrity. If themilitary can't do it, I don't hold much hope for hunters to be able to do any better. Every animal I have in my family room was taken under the guise of "fair chase" but none of it was "fair". I shot them all with implements that extended my involement in their actual harvest. An elk form Colorado was taken at 400 yards and a caribou taken in Alaska was at 200. Even the bowkills were at 25 yards or more. All of them were punctured with something and allowed to run off and expire. I didn't "chase" any of them. So I don't accept "fair chase" as having anything to do with its intentions. It's just a phrase we can throw at a fellow hunter to make us feel better about ourselves while maligning him.

quote:

Originally posted by jb:

quote:

Originally posted by Gentleman Jack:
For every 1 person that makes fun of ranch hunts on this thread, 10 people (including other hunters) compliment me on my mount/trophy elk. Another 10 beg for the meat I butchered.

i'd like to hear the story you told them."we walked out in the pasture and there he was,nice and close".
"I dont see the difference in paying that same amount for some place closer."
why dont you just call the farm and have them butcher it for you before you get there,then you can just go home.

You have to go to extreme dont you? You dont know beans about the hunt I went through. Save it.

your right I have said enough.I give up.

quote:

Originally posted by Madgoat:
Actually, Jack, I'm not making fun of your hunt, in fact it disgusts me. Does the big bull on your wall in any way reflect your abilities as a hunter.....?????? Probably not.

The only thing you can thank game farms and canned hunts for is:

Negative press in the media towards all hunters.

Importation of wildlife species that directly or out compete native wildlife species.

Vectors of disease like CWD and tuberculosis due to transfering animals around from one farm to another and so on. Kinda like a hooker in Vegas...

Hybridization in native species due to escapees. (ex. red deer and elk)

I could go on and on....game farms are a huge threat to native wildlife populations and hunting as we know it today, and SCI is a big reason why, especially when they applaud putting these glorified livestock animals in some book to boost egos.

MG

I honestly dont give two shits if it disgusts you, but thanks anyway. I also wouldnt get on the subject of my abilities as a hunter. I have been previously trained to take out human threats (armed I might add) at long distances so I wont even touch your statement about ability.

Media? Do you really believe and/or care about the media? If so, you need to turn in all of your firearms to the proper liberal authority. Media today is a joke and if you cant see that, your not an intelligent firearm owner. That my friend is disgusting.

Finally, like a good lady once told me, if you dont like fences, never hunt in Africa.

quote:

I also wouldnt get on the subject of my abilities as a hunter. I have been previously trained to take out human threats (armed I might add) at long distances so I wont even touch your statement about ability.

As long as I'm not confined behind a high fence, I would worry about your sorry ass getting me.

I think you're missing the point here George. Hunting today is not about spending time in nature, getting a breath of fresh air and some exercise, or spending time with friends or family. It is about killing the the biggest, and best easily and quickly. Drive thru hunts if you will..."yea, I'll take a black buck, a couple of hogs, and maybe some released quail...can you hurry, I gotta get back to my meaning less life in the city."

No longer is any sort of woodsman skill required while being in the woods or while stalking prey, no longer does the hunter need to know a little bit about the prey species being pursued (that bull elk has got to be somewhere on this 1000 acres???). I would rather kill a mouflon or a black buck in their native land, that on some dork's ranch in Texas. I guess this is where our view of the sport split ways.

I'm sorry you live in Delaware...I have been there and can't think of a crappier place to try and spend time in the woods. I'm also sorry about the nonresiden hunting fees, but when you see bull elk hunts being advertised with a "guarantee kill" for $10000 behind a high fence, I don't buy the crap you're spewing about "western hunting being out of reach". You can do a real wilderness hunt along the Yellowstone boundary for $4000, in the most remote part of the lower 48.

I'm going caribou hunting in Quebec this fall. While I'm excited about hunting, I'm more excited about going someplace new, spending time in serious wilderness, and seeing wildlife that I've never had an opportunity to observe in the wild. Would I trade this for a high fence caribou hunt, even if the high fence deal was any cheaper? Hell no. How about if there was a guaranteed trophy bull behind the high fence? I would rather kill a cow, or even nothing at all....it isn't the kill that should be important, but the experience.

MG

George you are the King of Symantics......you have defined fair chase......you have talked about guides.......you've talked about "farms" terminology equating to "Saturday Night Special" terminology......you have yet to say one word about how "fair chase" is a "buzzword" of the animal rights folks......and I've read your book.

Joe

And to respond to all this diatribe about "high fence hunting in Africa", my family owns land in Africa. There is a 8', 11 strand electric fence going around the exterior. The side that borders the national park is unfenced.

All of the large animals, (minus buffalo, rhino, giraffe and ostrich) are able to navigate this fence. Either by going over or through, they find a way to get on the other side if they so chose. So, all this BULLSHIT about high fence's in Africa is just that. The critters there come and go as they please.

MG

quote:

Originally posted by Madgoat:

quote:

I also wouldnt get on the subject of my abilities as a hunter. I have been previously trained to take out human threats (armed I might add) at long distances so I wont even touch your statement about ability.

As long as I'm not confined behind a high fence, I would worry about your sorry ass getting me.

I think you're missing the point here George. Hunting today is not about spending time in nature, getting a breath of fresh air and some exercise, or spending time with friends or family. It is about killing the the biggest, and best easily and quickly. Drive thru hunts if you will..."yea, I'll take a black buck, a couple of hogs, and maybe some released quail...can you hurry, I gotta get back to my meaning less life in the city."

No longer is any sort of woodsman skill required while being in the woods or while stalking prey, no longer does the hunter need to know a little bit about the prey species being pursued (that bull elk has got to be somewhere on this 1000 acres???). I would rather kill a mouflon or a black buck in their native land, that on some dork's ranch in Texas. I guess this is where our view of the sport split ways.

I'm sorry you live in Delaware...I have been there and can't think of a crappier place to try and spend time in the woods. I'm also sorry about the nonresiden hunting fees, but when you see bull elk hunts being advertised with a "guarantee kill" for $10000 behind a high fence, I don't buy the crap you're spewing about "western hunting being out of reach". You can do a real wilderness hunt along the Yellowstone boundary for $4000, in the most remote part of the lower 48.

I'm going caribou hunting in Quebec this fall. While I'm excited about hunting, I'm more excited about going someplace new, spending time in serious wilderness, and seeing wildlife that I've never had an opportunity to observe in the wild. Would I trade this for a high fence caribou hunt, even if the high fence deal was any cheaper? Hell no. How about if there was a guaranteed trophy bull behind the high fence? I would rather kill a cow, or even nothing at all....it isn't the kill that should be important, but the experience.

MG

Excellent post. Hunting is an opportunity for me to get out in nature and test myself. Shooting an animal on a game farm defeats the very purpose of hunting. I can buy meat at the grocery store, but I can't hone my hunting skills there.