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notice the "not eligible" comment ."But because the deer are kept in a fenced, 1,600-acre ranch, they can’t be entered in Boone & Crockett record books. Boone & Crockett requires fair chase of animals entered in its books. Obviously, a deer that lives behind a fence can hardly qualify as “fair chase.†"as it should be.  http://www.pjstar.com/php/index.php?/lampe/2007/01/09/ ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | ||
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Well I suppose it's nice those deer brothels exist for the guys who lack the outdoor skills to actually hunt but need the ego boost of taking a large antlered GMO buck. Do they put all the bucks in a lineup and let you pick or what ? | |||
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A guy would have to be a real pussy to to take a deer in a fenced incloser. A 9 year old boy shooting wild wild sparrows in his yard with a BB gun would be more of a man  | |||
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it almost looks like it had an ear tag removed. ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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I got this off the game farms web page. I bet I know what he paid for that rack. I sure don't think I'd pay that much for a animal that I couldn't get into B&C or P&Y. SCI does some good things for hunters but I disagree on this kind of record keeping. | |||
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The SCI "record book" is a disgraceful joke. It's so rich dudes can feel good about themselves and boast that they are indeed a great white hunters. MM | |||
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SCI runs some very good youth programs. This is what I mean by they do some good things for hunters. I also agree that there shouldn't be a record book of farm raised animals. If you are going to quote me please use the whole thing in context. Your quote shold have read:
I am not a member of SCI or ever plan on being one. | |||
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jb...your at it again. Perry | |||
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sorry..couldnt help myself.this stuff drives me nuts. ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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The other part that is disgusting to me is: "And it is a world record—for the Safari Club International." Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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What is this, a gay gathering or something. Just how friggin dumb a remark can some of you think up? First of all is this "fair chase" bullshit. If there ever was an "elitist" attitude,it's "fair chase". Theodore Roosevelt refused to shoot a cub cabled to a tree. Not that leaves one helluva big area before high fence hunting gets included. I'd bet a dime to a dollar, most of you nitwits live in metropolitan areas or megalopolis' where there's a "Pick-a-Pet" farm down the street and a "high fence" means a one acre impoundment where a "guide" kicks a goat in the ass when you yell "pull". That's NOT all there is to "high fence" hunting. In Arica today, most hunting is done with high fences. In Texas, thousands of acrea inclosed in a fence will give any of you Daniel Boone's more than your ego can write a check for as to "real hunting". NONE of you have any idea what SCI does for people even like you. Guess who came to bat for you when the USDA prohibited hooved game from coming back into the country from Canada? Guess who fough for delisting the gray wolf? Guess who is fighting for the mute swan to be taken off the migratory waterfowl list? Guess who went to New Jersey to fight the black bear hunting ban? Guess who continues to fight with Canadian provincial governments over spring bear seasons? Guess who put tons of money into fighting the idiots at PETA and HSUS? There are thousands of things SCI does for those not worthy of their effort, but they do it for the future. And what do they get in return, some dorks wanting to "protect" a species that already numbers almost twice what it did when Columbus landed here. You should all be ashamed of showing your ignorance. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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George, come on now, don't hold back or sugar coat it. Tell us how you really feel. GWB | |||
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If you dont like it,take your ball and go home. What,are you going to lecture us again,on what you think ethics means? Is this the same George roof? maybe there is a tatoo on your forehead.  ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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JB, can you say "pack sand"? It's my ball and I AM home. If you don't like the scenery, it's you who have to move someplace better. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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your the one who stormed in and called everyone gay who doesnt agree with you.I'm just here to have some fun. ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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My idea of fair chase is that the animal is able to get away from where I'm physically able to pursue during hunting hours. This means that the animal can cross a fence, river, or some other marker as to where I can't follow because of permissions as well as just flat out leaving me in the dust. With vehicles or horses this will greatly increase a hunters range, but for this argument lets say that all hunters are only walking. This deer was shot on a 1600 acre ranch if I remember the story right. This means that the ranch was probably divided into several smaller pastures to regulate their breeding program. Even if the ranch wasn't cross fenced I more than likely could have walked the entire ranch several times in one day. If this deer had been shot in say a 5000 acre preserve then I would have considered this more of a fair chase hunt. I've hunted a game ranch in TX for pigs, they boasted several thousand acres of hunting land but I never saw a pasture larger than about 400 acres and I wasn't allowed to stalk, I had to stay in the blinds. I'm not going to say it wasn't hunting, just not the type I'm used to. I'm sure there are a lot of legitimate game ranches out there to choose from. The bad ones just make the headlines everyday. Shooting deer in an overgrazed pasture over bait or feeders isn't hunting. This does nothing to give credibility to the people of this hunting industry or the SCI. If SCI is going to recognize animals shot on a game ranch or preserve they should have a program that the ranches or preserves have to qualify for. SCI may already have this sort of program, but I don't know I'm not a member nor have I read their qualifications for their record book. I like what I've seen of the SCI's youth and womens programs, and I donate money to SCI every year by buying their raffle tickets. I just choose not to be a member. Spouting profanity and trying to intimidate other posters on this forum takes a lot away from what could be said. Remember these are only peoples opinions on the topic being discussed some posters are more informed than others. So instead of trying to belittle someone for their opinion try and use some of that info to sway them to you side. I would prefer a well thought out debate to what has been said here in the last few posts, and I'm sure some other poster would agree. | |||
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SCI distinguishes between animals taken in fair chase and those taken in enclosures.  "When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all." Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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Not much different than hunting in iowa or Ohio! | |||
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taylorce1, some good points. I haven't hunted the Timberghost ranch, but I have considered it, it isn't crossfenced at all, and very limited pasture areas. You can in fact probably walk across a 1600 acre ranch a few times in a day, but you will NEVER see all the deer that are present, much less spot all the BIG ones! 1600 acres is a lot of ground to see, especially wooded property that limits sight distance. Several studies have shown that specific known deer in much smaller enlosed areas (e.g. 400 acres) which were hunted extensively, were never even seen during the course of an entire season! I think that you're onto something with the 'size matters' thing, I believe SCI does have some qualifications regarding the size of a fenced ranch, but I don't know. I have been told that Boone & Crocket has considered defining a minimum for a fenced enclosure that would still allow qualification into their records, but at this time has just decided that behind a fence at all doesn't qualify. I will say that I chose not to go to Timberghost because a deer shot on their high fence ranch wouldn't qualify for B&C. They also have property (or properties) that aren't high fenced. It is an interesting thing, I am convinced that it is far more difficult to shoot a huge whitetail in a fenced ranch of some size (in my definition over 500 acres) without hunting over bait, than it is to shoot one coming to a feeder on an unfenced property, but with a good guide it may all be moot--I know that you can find deer patterning on all types of feed, and I'm sure the guides at that ranch have a good idea where their deer are....but as you can read on their website, you never know what is gonna walk by--and I think that is the crux of it. A canned hunt to me is when the ranch owners/guides, know exactly what/when/where animal is coming. I assure you that deer on a ranch of that size have plenty of ability to get away from you if you are stalking them, or they get the slightest hint you are around, they'd be gone in an instant, and you wouldn't find them anytime soon. It will take someone more knowledgeable about biology than me, but I would think that there is some kind of definition, that would speak to the amount of acreage that would be needed to keep things at par with a property that isn't fenced, but maybe not---maybe that is the crux of these questions??? | |||
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I always find this debate interesting and confusing! To start off I have never hunted in a fenced in ranch. "Fair chase" seems to be a moving target, here in Mass you can't bait any animal so seeing guys shoot animals around feeders even if there is no fence which sure doesn't seem like "fair chase" Is a bow more of a fair chase then a rifle? Is stalking more of a fair chase then a tree stand? Was it hunting when the indians killed buffalo by the thousands? We have some of those 100 acre farms in NY state that are nothing short of ridiculous. On the other hand there are 20-40,000 acre ranches in Texas and huge areas in Africa. Certainly these are not the same. Right!? | |||
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I agree George and I got your back, even though you probably dont need it! "There are creatures here that cannot even be found in books, and I have killed them all......" | |||
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Geoff, I do think you're right, I guess the thing is where is the line from '100 acre farm that is ridiculous' to a reasonable amount of acreage that is fenced, but still provides fair chase hunting...... As I said previously, the type of ground cover, plus the topography make a difference...some biologist could probably share some insight, maybe something to do with a critters home range, whether it was on fenced ground or not? Interestingly, to me at least, as I typed that, it seems like a reasonable theory to postulate a minimum acreage upon. If a critter would typically range over an area of say 200 acres, than perhaps a fenced area of 150% of that amount would be a reasonable area to provide a fair chase situation? Never an easy answer... | |||
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I don't think this has anything to do with the merits of what SCI does for the hunting community. Its more of an arguement that these "trophies" should have no bearing on any type of official record book. I disagree with someone who believes that this particular trophy animal deserves to be in a record book. It doesn't. And if you want to arge with me, then you've probably shot an animal behind a high fence and thought of yourself as a hunter. Sorry. I agree with the people who are taking SCI to task for calling this a "trophy". Its bought, not earned. | |||
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What? Don't you mean the settlers? Indians killed Buffalo out of necessity for clothing a food. They didn't practically anihilate the species. | |||
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Fish30114, Thank you for the comments. I've never hunted deer in heavily wooded areas, where I hunt deer you can see for thousands of acres on most days. So I think the size of a farm to qualify would depend on the region you were hunting in. The Mule deer I took this hunting season I spotted at more than a half mile. I took him at over 500 yards because I couldn't get any closer because I ran out of cover. My dad's place where I was hunting is 1280 acres give or take plus I had permission for about another 4000 acres adjoining my dad's property. This is where I came up with my figure of 5000. So if SCI, B&C, and P&Y could come to terms on a standard that allowed game ranches to be included in all three record books what then? There would have to be some sort of punishment for violations, of course stripping of the record and possibly a lifetime ban on animals from that farm. Would this entice the game farms to keep their business on the up and up. I know that as a hunter I cringe every time I see a video like the one with Jimmy Huston hunting white tail, or reading the newspaper articles about Troy Gentry hunting a bear. This does nothing to further the acceptance of hunting game farms as a legitimate form of hunting or bring it one step closer to acceptance by B&C or P&Y. It just adds fuel to the anti-hunting campaign. | |||
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one big difference,tommorrow the buffalo may be twenty miles away.The indians may not eat for a week ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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Originally posted by Taylorce1: "I know that as a hunter I cringe every time I see a video like the one with Jimmy Huston hunting white tail, or reading the newspaper articles about Troy Gentry hunting a bear. This does nothing to further the acceptance of hunting game farms as a legitimate form of hunting or bring it one step closer to acceptance by B&C or P&Y. It just adds fuel to the anti-hunting campaign." ABSOLUTELY RIGHT | |||
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Skyjacker, Tell us about how this trophy was taken. With details please. Perry | |||
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GSP7 wrote: "A guy would have to be a real pussy to to take a deer in a fenced incloser." --- If ignorance is truly bliss, then a few of you guys must smile 24 hours a day. (And for starters, there is no word as "incloser." The word you were looking for is "enclosure.") Texas is home to many high-fenced operations -- and some of them are tens of thousands of acres with no internal or cross fencing. Some of you guys couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag, much less find your way off a ranch such as this. So don't make blanket statements if you aren't prepared to face the heat -- and the truth. I've hunted high-fenced operations, and the fences NEVER came in to play. How can a perimeter fence be a factor on a ranch that spans more than 47,000 acres??? The same goes for a small ranch that covers a mere ten square miles... I would never participate in a "canned" hunt or something that takes place on a few acres of land and under controlled conditions. But those operations are the exception, NOT THE RULE. Lastly, for such mighty men and purists as GSP7: Do you ever hunt pronghorn? Did you realize that it is quite rare for a pronghorn to jump even a four-wired cattle fence? They'll run alongside a fence for hours looking for a weak spot to go through or a high spot to go under. So why don't you consider this an "incloser" as well????? Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Bobby, well said. I wonder if some of these dopes would consider my hunt in Zimbabwe at Humani fair chase? The ranch was approximately 800,000 acres, HIGH FENCED. ______________________ Age and Treachery Will Always Overcome Youth and Skill | |||
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That is the stupidest statement here today. It is obvious you don't know your history. The Indians only took what they needed to survive. It was the White settlers and shooters from the trains and the buffalo hunters that decimated the buffalo. It was intended to starve the Native Americans. There know you have a little knowledge.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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GSP7: I have a challenge for you regarding your statement. I had forgotten about this, but it is worthy of mention here. A fellow Texan stood well over 6 feet tall, weighed around 215 and was the picture of health -- and he LOVED hunting. But he also loved his country and put his life on the line so folks like you and me could continue to enjoy our freedoms. When he returned from the Persian Gulf War, he was in terrible shape and suffered from severely debilitating wounds. A couple years after his return home, he wanted to hunt again. But of course, his lack of mobility and motor skills created a problem. Nonetheless, he did try his hand at exotics in the TX Hill COuntry -- on a high-fenced operation, no less. I think he mentioned it was 1500 acres or thereabouts. Three days into the hunt, he bagged a decent axis buck -- and he was THRILLED. Now what did you want to call him??? What was that word again? Could you look him in the eyes and still call him that vulgar name??? If so, that speaks volumes... Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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http://www.pjstar.com/php/index.php?/lampe/2007/01/09/ ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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Game farms are the worst thing that has happend to native wildlife populations, as well as hunters and hunting in this country. They are nothing more than glorified zoos where the largest horned/antlered animal is slaughtered by the highest bidder. Money and greed are they only reason why they exist.  MG | |||
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WRONG EINSTEIN The white hunters killed the buffalo for monetary gain in the hide market, not to starve the Indians. Starving the Indians was an unintended consequence, not a primary reason. Now, don't you feel silly?______________________ Age and Treachery Will Always Overcome Youth and Skill | |||
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Is this any worse than the landowner who charges outrageous trespass fees, because there property borders a National Forest, State Park, or just happens to have some game on it. Or the same landowner who leases the same land out to an Outfitter so they can make money off of the hunters as well. We as hunters are our own worst enemy, we want our names in the record books no matter the cost. You can't blame the landowners for trying to make their property profitable. Farming and Ranching just doesn't pay as well as the Hunting industry these days. I'll admit it I've dreamed of world class trophies for Mule Deer, Elk, and Moose. I want to do it on my own, without the use of an Outfitter or paying trespass fees to some Landowner. It might be a pipe dream but I'll keep trying by using public lands and the "Ranching for Wildlife" program here in CO. | |||
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I'll disagree. The indians took everything that they could, they just weren't very good/efficient hunters. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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What a rant! Why bring sexual preferance into this? (suppressed homo-erotic yearnings, perhaps?) SCI does thousands of wonderful things for hunters everyday and a couple of absolutely despicable things. Most sensible people can support the wonderful things and deplore the despicable. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Uhhhh,,,,Unless I'm mistaken, didn't the noble indians chase entire herds of buffalo over cliffs and then collect only the humps and tongues? The rest of the carcass was left for the coyotes and eagles. I hunted Namibia a couple years ago, never seen a high fence. We hunted on 118 square miles, nary a high fence in sight. If your gonna raise hell, get your facts straight first. | |||
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To me, more important questions would be-- 1)"Has the animal in question been raised or fed in such a manner that it has lost its fear of man?" or 2) "Has the animal been conditioned to predictably come to an artificial food source?" If the answer to either question is "yes", then it ain't much of a hunting trophy no matter High Fence or not. A truthful answer to these questions from a game farm manager (or corn-feeder-owner) might prove difficult to obtain. Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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