Did I hear this correctly on ESPN Sportscenter tonight ? An accouncer mentioned a 5 year old relative of Davey Crocket killed a bear, also killed 3 deer and hoped to kill a turkey.

The other announcer states " This is so wrong on so many levels"

I caught most of the story, but was in another room when I heard this. Did anybody else catch this story on ESPN ? If I heard correctly,this explains many peoples' opinion on east coast journalism. They do just think all of us in fly-over country are hillbilly fools.

Just one midwestern hunters opinion.

I saw it somewhere on the internet.However I don't think a child has "hunted " until he can carry his own rifle, aim it, and pull the trigger without any help !!! The father supposedly started him out at the age of two ! This was just a stunt .

I read the same story as CRUSHER on this, the people responding on the Fox page are having a ball with this one. A lot of anti-hunters...we should go "mingle and educate" some of them.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
I saw it somewhere on the internet.However I don't think a child has "hunted " until he can carry his own rifle, aim it, and pull the trigger without any help !!! The father supposedly started him out at the age of two ! This was just a stunt .

I don't believe this was a stunt. They said in the video that the kid did it all by himself. I'm proud of the little guy and I don't even know him. I started shooting archery when I was 2 and began hunting with a rifle for squirrels when I was 5. I shot my first deer when I was 7 and I never had any help with any of the above. My dad wouldn't let me start hunting until I was able to handle the gun myself and that's exactly what I did. I think it's sad for someone to put down this kid. He's the future of hunting..........shouldn't you show at least a little encouragement??

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
I saw it somewhere on the internet.However I don't think a child has "hunted " until he can carry his own rifle, aim it, and pull the trigger without any help !!! The father supposedly started him out at the age of two ! This was just a stunt .

you obviously dont know shit about Arkansas.
by the time you are 9 you are expected to drive your own 4-wheeler, drag and clean your own deer ect.
those kids start out early. i have seen 3 year olds at 0430 in the AM wide awake and eager to get to the stand. i have seen 8 year olds who can track better than dogs.
i dont know were your from but a 5 year old killing a bear isnt big news in arkasas, just everywere else.

My comments are based on the fact that all too often in my life I've heard a father say 'my kid did this ' .On looking into it I found the father did 90% and the kid did 10 % !!! If the 5 year old did it all on his own that's all to his credit.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
My comments are based on the fact that all too often in my life I've heard a father say 'my kid did this ' .On looking into it I found the father did 90% and the kid did 10 % !!! If the 5 year old did it all on his own that's all to his credit.

what portion do you require for the child to do to give him credit.
does he need to drive the 4-wheeler to the stand?
hell, there are grown men who do less than this kid did.
what the difference between someone who pays for a guide to carry him to a stand, point out an animal and tell him if its big enough. all he does is align the sights and pull the trigger. he doesnt even clean it. so in my eyes this kid did more than some "trophy hunters".

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
My comments are based on the fact that all too often in my life I've heard a father say 'my kid did this ' .On looking into it I found the father did 90% and the kid did 10 % !!! If the 5 year old did it all on his own that's all to his credit.

what portion do you require for the child to do to give him credit.
does he need to drive the 4-wheeler to the stand?
hell, there are grown men who do less than this kid did.
what the difference between someone who pays for a guide to carry him to a stand, point out an animal and tell him if its big enough. all he does is align the sights and pull the trigger. he doesnt even clean it. so in my eyes this kid did more than some "trophy hunters".

you still poaching.. er posting here, kelley?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
My comments are based on the fact that all too often in my life I've heard a father say 'my kid did this ' .On looking into it I found the father did 90% and the kid did 10 % !!! If the 5 year old did it all on his own that's all to his credit.

what portion do you require for the child to do to give him credit.
does he need to drive the 4-wheeler to the stand?
hell, there are grown men who do less than this kid did.
what the difference between someone who pays for a guide to carry him to a stand, point out an animal and tell him if its big enough. all he does is align the sights and pull the trigger. he doesnt even clean it. so in my eyes this kid did more than some "trophy hunters".

you still poaching.. er posting here, kelley?

whats wrong?
was i talking about you?

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

you still poaching.. er posting here, kelley?

whats wrong?
was i talking about you?

That you are a poacher, and don't have any bones about, but feel that you are somehow morally superior, and are still as much a poacher as a spotlight and 22 at night hunter.

and the FUNNY part is you don't realize how bad of a hypocrit you come off as.

watch, you'll post again, TRYING to cover it, like a cat in a sandbox.

jeffe

Here is the CNN video clip if anyone is interested.
5 year old shoots bear.

No responsible adult would allow any child under the age of 12 or 13 to be further away than grabbing-range if the kid had a loaded gun. Just like the Hogzilla debacle and the 9 yo girl who shot the big grizzly, this is a stunt. At least the girl was in the wilderness, although she was too small to even carry her own rifle for very far, and certainly couldn't backpack more than 20# very far.
The last Gun-shot wound victim I treated was on a young soldier just back form Afganistan, opening day of deer season, shot accidently by a young teenager hunting deer on property he didn't have permission to hunt. Luckily the vitals were missed, but the kid mistook the soldier for a deer, and even a flesh wound by a 30/30 soft point is damned impressive.
Anybody who turns a kid less than 13 loose with a high-powered rifle is a fool, and is needlessly putting the kid and everyone around him in danger. To claim that this 5 yo killed a bear by himself is ridiculous.

This is simply a young hunter who with his father shot a bear that was approaching his stand.

It was legal for this young man to be hunting, and I say good for him!

The term "stunt hunt" has been thrown around alot on this site.
It generally gets used when someone accomplishes something that a jealous AR poster hasn't done or cant do.

Leave the damn kid alone.

It's not the kid who's being attacked. It's his father and people who defend that type of irresponsible, head-line seeking behavior. And those too ignorant to tell the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
No responsible adult would allow any child under the age of 12 or 13 to be further away than grabbing-range if the kid had a loaded gun.

Horseshit.

I, along with just about every other boy I know around here, was hunting on my own by the time I was ten. Squirrels, deer, you name it. I know of several four year olds who have killed deer, a couple of them really nice bucks, and none of these kids has had dad aim or pull the trigger for them. A good friend of mine's 9 year old son hunts by himself and did so last year when he was eight. He shot a really nice 140 class 10 point last year.

Just because they don't do it that way where you live doesn't mean that it can't be done safely. And yes, it's legal here.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
No responsible adult would allow any child under the age of 12 or 13 to be further away than grabbing-range if the kid had a loaded gun. Just like the Hogzilla debacle and the 9 yo girl who shot the big grizzly, this is a stunt. At least the girl was in the wilderness, although she was too small to even carry her own rifle for very far, and certainly couldn't backpack more than 20# very far.
The last Gun-shot wound victim I treated was on a young soldier just back form Afganistan, opening day of deer season, shot accidently by a young teenager hunting deer on property he didn't have permission to hunt. Luckily the vitals were missed, but the kid mistook the soldier for a deer, and even a flesh wound by a 30/30 soft point is damned impressive.
Anybody who turns a kid less than 13 loose with a high-powered rifle is a fool, and is needlessly putting the kid and everyone around him in danger. To claim that this 5 yo killed a bear by himself is ridiculous.

whats the difference between a 5 year old kid and a grown man trophy hunting?
they both get carried to a stand and sit w/ someone till they spot an animal. then he shoots the animal and the other person drags it out and dresses it?
sounds like an expensive trophy hunt.
I guess all yhose guys on TV hunting shows are not hunters but "stuntmen"?

What a complete let down to his family....Davey did it when he was only three.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
No responsible adult would allow any child under the age of 12 or 13 to be further away than grabbing-range if the kid had a loaded gun. Just like the Hogzilla debacle and the 9 yo girl who shot the big grizzly, this is a stunt. At least the girl was in the wilderness, although she was too small to even carry her own rifle for very far, and certainly couldn't backpack more than 20# very far.
The last Gun-shot wound victim I treated was on a young soldier just back form Afganistan, opening day of deer season, shot accidently by a young teenager hunting deer on property he didn't have permission to hunt. Luckily the vitals were missed, but the kid mistook the soldier for a deer, and even a flesh wound by a 30/30 soft point is damned impressive.
Anybody who turns a kid less than 13 loose with a high-powered rifle is a fool, and is needlessly putting the kid and everyone around him in danger. To claim that this 5 yo killed a bear by himself is ridiculous.

If you watched the video, you would see that the grandfather was in the stand with the young man. I have a buddy that took his son with him hunting this year, 4 years old, he son shot his first whitetail doe with his fathers assistance.

What is the problem? What I see is hunters teaching there kids hunting skills, it sure beats them sitting in front of a TV playing them stupid video games.

Now a few States I hunt, there is age limitations as to when someone can be in the field unsupervised. In Delaware it is 16 years old, but until 16 years of age, an adult 21 or older must be with the child under 16.

All hunters in Arkansas born after 1968 must have passsed a Hunter Education course unless they are under 16 yo and under the "direct supervision" (grabbing range to me)of an adult older than 21.
http://www.agfc.com/education-class/hunter-education.aspx

The grandfather and father of this child seem like nice folks, and the kid did do as much as some "hunters" who are guided to a blind, wait for baited game, and told when, where, and which to shoot. That said, it is still a very dangerous idea for kids to have control of a high powered rifle. Same idea as not allowing children to drive or to drink. If a disaster results, the adult who provided the rifle (or alcohol or vehicle)can and should be held liable for damages.

From what I got from the video clip was that the Grandfather was sitting right next to the child in the stand. I would say he was under direct adult supervision.

I want to weigh in on this one. A young boy taking direction from a parent and killing something does not a hunter make.

I mean really, fellas. Semantically, he is not a hunter. He does not live up to the satisfaction of any accepted meaning of the word. In reality, he may be the triggerman on the deal but again that is a far cry from being a hunter. He lacks the mental capacity to be a hunter; this is no slight on him, but the facts are the facts. Children (and that's what he is) are still developing their brains at that stage. He has little, if any, appreciation for life (and the taking of it) as it relates to the larger system of which he is a part. Thus, he lacks the mental capacity to consider the intangible qualities all hunters face in the taking of life. Ethics, morality and personal accountability are all choices made by every hunter when he pulls the trigger (whether consciously or subconsciously).

Children of tender years simply don't understand those things. And they are all requisite elements for a human hunter to participate in as hunters. He is a little boy engaged in family activity and taking direction from older parental figures. He enjoys the "hunting" experience because that has been his exposure to date. Without his own life experience he does not know if he is a hunter or not, he's trying to please dad. One day he will make up his own mind about things. I am concerned, though, about his exposure to high powered weapons at such a young age. My concern is not so much about what he may do with a rifle in his hands when accompanied by an adult, but rather the power of a young child's curiosity outside of a parent's direct supervision.

I think it's grand, however that he is getting exposed to the woods by his family. Hopefully, in time his appreciation for life will grow as will his appreciation and respect for the taking of life and what it means.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
From what I got from the video clip was that the Grandfather was sitting right next to the child in the stand. I would say he was under direct adult supervision.

I agree. The newswoman just emphasizes "all by himself". My post regarding Arkansas regulations was aimed primarily at the poster who mentions the expectations of Arkansas 9 year-olds to drive their own ATV and haul out their own deer they have killed on their lonesome.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I want to weigh in on this one. A young boy taking direction from a parent and killing something does not a hunter make.

I mean really, fellas. Semantically, he is not a hunter. He does not live up to the satisfaction of any accepted meaning of the word. In reality, he may be the triggerman on the deal but again that is a far cry from being a hunter. He lacks the mental capacity to be a hunter; this is no slight on him, but the facts are the facts. Children (and that's what he is) are still developing their brains at that stage. He has little, if any, appreciation for life (and the taking of it) as it relates to the larger system of which he is a part. Thus, he lacks the mental capacity to consider the intangible qualities all hunters face in the taking of life. Ethics, morality and personal accountability are all choices made by every hunter when he pulls the trigger (whether consciously or subconsciously).

Children of tender years simply don't understand those things. And they are all requisite elements for a human hunter to participate in as hunters. He is a little boy engaged in family activity and taking direction from older parental figures. He enjoys the "hunting" experience because that has been his exposure to date. Without his own life experience he does not know if he is a hunter or not, he's trying to please dad. One day he will make up his own mind about things. I am concerned, though, about his exposure to high powered weapons at such a young age. My concern is not so much about what he may do with a rifle in his hands when accompanied by an adult, but rather the power of a young child's curiosity outside of a parent's direct supervision.

I think it's grand, however that he is getting exposed to the woods by his family. Hopefully, in time his appreciation for life will grow as will his appreciation and respect for the taking of life and what it means.

Well spoken.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:


I mean really, fellas. Semantically, he is not a hunter. He does not live up to the satisfaction of any accepted meaning of the word. In reality, he may be the triggerman on the deal but again that is a far cry from being a hunter.

tell that to the grown men who pay $4000 to be carried to a stand in a truck.
who sit beside a paid guide that tells them which animal to shoot.
who dont even touch the animal after its killed.

you tell me how that grown man, that trophy hunter is a hunter and this child isnt?

how many hunting shows habve you seen were the "hunter" is sitting there looking through the scope while the guide says "the one in the middle, facing left" or something to that effect.

These ranches that pride themselves on service do everything and more for grown adults that this grandfather did for this kid.

Ill bet they consider themselves hunters?

So you tell me how is it any different.
ill bet the kid was there when the bear was skinned and not in the club house smoking a Cohiba and drinking a rum and coke.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:


I mean really, fellas. Semantically, he is not a hunter. He does not live up to the satisfaction of any accepted meaning of the word. In reality, he may be the triggerman on the deal but again that is a far cry from being a hunter.

tell that to the grown men who pay $4000 to be carried to a stand in a truck.
who sit beside a paid guide that tells them which animal to shoot.
who dont even touch the animal after its killed.

you tell me how that grown man, that trophy hunter is a hunter and this child isnt?

how many hunting shows habve you seen were the "hunter" is sitting there looking through the scope while the guide says "the one in the middle, facing left" or something to that effect.

These ranches that pride themselves on service do everything and more for grown adults that this grandfather did for this kid.

Ill bet they consider themselves hunters?

So you tell me how is it any different.
ill bet the kid was there when the bear was skinned and not in the club house smoking a Cohiba and drinking a rum and coke.

It is possible for an unskilled adult "hunter" to do exactly that, and in that case, both the adult and the child are just "trigger-men"

However, it is different if the adult hunter has paid for his own hunt--something the child did not do.

It is also different in that the adult SHOULD be able to fully appreciate the ideas expressed by jsl3170.

It is also possible that the adult hunter in the above situation has spent more time in the wild and knows more about game, tracking, blind-building, and shooting than a young "guide" does, but simply now has more money than time, and is willing to hire what is necessary for him to enjoy a very limited amount of free time away from other responsibilities.

Killing does not equate to hunter; and hiring a guide and a blind does not equate to "unskilled" killer.

Since you asked I'll respond - I think I already laid out my position as to why this young child who, incidentally is only a couple of hunting seasons removed from shitty diapers, is not a hunter so we needn't trod over that grass again.

Please note that I never brought up individuals who pay fees to go to a ranch and sit in a stand as the basis for a requisite defintion of a hunter. You did. As a matter of fact, I think you and I are in some sort of agreement that those people are not hunters, but are participating is some element of hunting. Frankly, I think that people who do that are using the experience as a gateway to tap into other unresolved issues in their lives and, oh yeah, they get to tell a tale lter on about the "hunt".

So, I think you may have misaligned my position - I merely made the case that this young man was not really hunting because he does not possess all of the needed skills/tools to be a hunter. The cat having kittens in the oven doesn't make them biscuits anymore than this child shooting a bear makes him a hunter even if he "was there when the bear was skinned and not in the club house smoking a Cohiba and drinking a run and coke".

quote:

A young boy taking direction from a parent and killing something does not a hunter make.

How does it make him any less of one? I see him as an inexperienced hunter and he is probably learning what he can at his young age. I'm sure a lot of us started off with taking directions from a parent or mentor. Yes he is not doing it by himself but I've done a lot of hunts with help from friends and family.

I agree that he is probably only hunting to be out there with dad and grandpa but how is what he is doing any different than fishing with them. His family has taken the time to teach him how to shoot and where to aim, so he probably has a little better respect for life than the kid who shot "Hogzilla" as was brought up before. I don't remember how many times that boar was shot but they only talked about this kid shooting the bear once. I'm sure at some point in this child's life he will question himself as to if he really likes hunting or not.

I'm more worried about the kid who is curious about firearms that hasn't ever been allowed to use them. While I'm not a parent I have some very young niece's and nephew's that are around me and my firearms. I make sure that the are locked away as well as the ammunition, but if they ask about them I don't try to hide it from them. If they want me to teach them to shoot and their parents agree, I'll take them out and let them shoot my rifles under close supervision.

If the child shows interest in shooting and hunting early on and and has the attention span for it why not?

i think that there may be some "adults" who would like to discount this kill in an effort to make them feel better about thier own misgivings and failures.

I see far to many grown men on this web site who call themselves hunter but who openly parade the pictures taken by "ranch staff".

knowing that they neither scouted for the animal or had anything to do w/ the kill other than being, as jsl3170 said, the triggerman on the deal .

And i will add that SGraves must have a different breed living in NW Arkansas than the young hunters i see in Southern Arkansas. a place i have hunted for more than 25 years.

I think we have arrived at the heart of the matter: what does it mean to hunt and to be a hunter? I am satisfied to adopt an accepted dictionary definition of the word as the basis of my argument. Merriam Webster's online dictionary defines a hunter as: A person who hunts game and hunting as: The process of hunting.

Admittedly, these definitions are a little unclear. By the dictinary's own terms, to be a hunter is to participate in the process of hunting. What is unclear is whether the process itself is satisfied by partial or full participation; if one is allowed to only partially participate in the process of hunting then all of the people who are willng to pay a tidy sum for someone else to get them in front of a game animal with little to no effort on their part are hunters, including the young man at the center of this discussion. I, on the other hand, believe that one only does a thing if they do it completely (otherwise what is the point? I am reminded of Iyengar when he was asked about yoga in America and replied (with a nod toward American's habits of re-inventing things to suit themselves)that yoga without meditation is merely calisthenics. In other words, without participating in the entire process one isn't doing the thing in the first place). Thus, hunting as a process of activity sequentially ordered so as to arrive at the culmination of the process itself which is the kill and collection of the game animal. BTW, Merriam Webster also definces process similarly.

In sum, one must fully participate in the entire process of hunting to be called a hunter. If one does not, then he may be participating in element(s) of the hunting process, but he is not hunting (enter the triggerman?) and he is no hunter, although perhaps a hunter-in-training??

That's how I see it. I am curious, though, how other forum members define the terms. Finally, the question begs to be answered, if it is impossible to agree upon the definition of our terms then what shall we call the areas of overlap where out shared activity is similar to that of our neighbor?

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:

In sum, one must fully participate in the entire process of hunting to be called a hunter. If one does not, then he may be participating in element(s) of the hunting process, but he is not hunting (enter the triggerman?) and he is no hunter, although perhaps a hunter-in-training??

I for one agree with you 100%.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I am curious, though, how other forum members define the terms.

I will tell you that those who fancy themselves hunters but are in fact only livestock killers or the guides triggerman dont take very fondly to someone saying they are not the greatest hunter to have ever lived.
Just watch the next series of posts, im wont even mention how many of them will be from Texans.

Gonna have to agree with S. Graves. I don't care how many deer/bear/what-have-you the kid has killed. It was a vicarious stunt. Another case of "my 5 year old insist on wearing Air Jordans to kindergarten."
The bar has been set. Who will be the first to have a 4 year old kill a bear? Then a 3 1/2 year old.
Anytime someone uses Arkansas as proof of anything, I think of Slick Willie and Thunder Butt. 'Nuff said.

i still can't believe a self pronounced poacher it talking about how someone else LEGALLY hunts.

I believe ALL children and even first time adult hunters should be accompanied by a parent or a experienced hunter until they are competent and safe to be hunting alone. This will certainly vary from hunter to hunter depending on age, maturity, experience etc.

Obviously a 5 year old should not be hunting by himself. His father or grandfather was right to be by his side. This does not belittle this young mans hunting experience whatsoever.
In fact I am sure it made it more meaningful, and a memory that will be looked upon many years from now with fond thoughts.

Whoever thinks that a boy and his dad hunting together makes for a "stunt hunt" or isn't a real hunter is a jackass.

Article didn't say whether he's from the Polly or Elizabeth branch. I think he's from the
Elizabeth side (I'm from the Polly side )

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
I believe ALL children and even first time adult hunters should be accompanied by a parent or a experienced hunter until they are competent and safe to be hunting alone. This will certainly vary from hunter to hunter depending on age, maturity, experience etc.

Obviously a 5 year old should not be hunting by himself. His father or grandfather was right to be by his side. This does not belittle this young mans hunting experience whatsoever.
In fact I am sure it made it more meaningful, and a memory that will be looked upon many years from now with fond thoughts.

Whoever thinks that a boy and his dad hunting together makes for a "stunt hunt" or isn't a real hunter is a jackass.

Or is at least posting on the same thread as some real jackasses.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
I believe ALL children and even first time adult hunters should be accompanied by a parent or a experienced hunter until they are competent and safe to be hunting alone. This will certainly vary from hunter to hunter depending on age, maturity, experience etc.

Obviously a 5 year old should not be hunting by himself. His father or grandfather was right to be by his side. This does not belittle this young mans hunting experience whatsoever.
In fact I am sure it made it more meaningful, and a memory that will be looked upon many years from now with fond thoughts.

Whoever thinks that a boy and his dad hunting together makes for a "stunt hunt" or isn't a real hunter is a jackass.

Or is at least posting on the same thread as some real jackasses.

Acceptance of your condition is the first step in treatment. Good for you!

The real ones are easy to spot, eh? Just not amongst themselves.

The kid was on Foxnews this morning ! I guess it's 'I want my kid to be a star, get his 15 minutes of fame '. That's not what I call good parenting ! So I'll stick with my original comment 'it's a stunt' !!