Well, the fight's not over but...its gonna be an uphill battle from here on out. Fighting the "emotional" position, that's supported by the masses of un-informed people, is much harder than presenting boring facts - that include the continued "hunting" of more lions as a way to preserve their future.

Fact is, I don't specifically blame the hunting community. There's many fine hunters/conservationists among us, many of whom have tried their best to prevent this potential up-listing from happening. I have however spent many a days scratching my head, wondering why it is that "lobbying" for better lion hunting practices, and conservation ahead of consumption, has been met often times with such contempt?

Unfortunately, the biggest loser will be the Lion itself - if the uplisting goes through.

Having an anti Obama signature is not going to help this cause!

Any democrat who sees the subject is going to ignore the post without even reading the contents or giving it serious thought!

Political jingoism and point scoring never won any cause.

I would like to know how Dr. Packer sees this playing out for the long term benefit of wild lions. His reaction seems more in line with wanting revenge against the hunting community for not moving fast enough with his 6 year old concept. Too bad because just as it was coming on board and getting traction this happened. He must believe that the hunting blocks won't be changed to other uses. That operators will continue as usual just with lion off the menu. I don't see it playing out that way and in 20 years the wild lion will be a rare thing indeed.

quote:

Well, the fight's not over but...its gonna be an uphill battle from here on out.

Yep! - 3 steps up and slide 4 steps down!

Had it been up-listed to Appendix 1 as initially lobbied by some of us this might (I say might) just not have happened.

I followed johnHunt's lead and also submitted a comment.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I would like to know how Dr. Packer sees this playing out for the long term benefit of wild lions. His reaction seems more in line with wanting revenge against the hunting community for not moving fast enough with his 6 year old concept. Too bad because just as it was coming on board and getting traction this happened. He must believe that the hunting blocks won't be changed to other uses. That operators will continue as usual just with lion off the menu. I don't see it playing out that way and in 20 years the wild lion will be a rare thing indeed.

+1

Packer achieved what he was aiming to do from the very beginning - regrettably at the hunting industry's expense which culminates in the client losing out.
A great pity that some individuals backed Packer along his road to success.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I would like to know how Dr. Packer sees this playing out for the long term benefit of wild lions. His reaction seems more in line with wanting revenge against the hunting community for not moving fast enough with his 6 year old concept. Too bad because just as it was coming on board and getting traction this happened. He must believe that the hunting blocks won't be changed to other uses. That operators will continue as usual just with lion off the menu. I don't see it playing out that way and in 20 years the wild lion will be a rare thing indeed.

+1

Packer achieved what he was aiming to do from the very beginning - regrettably at the hunting industry's expense which culminates in the client losing out.
A great pity that some individuals backed Packer along his road to success.

What bought this Dr Packer to SCI??

I for one actually 'do' talk to Craig Packer. Talked (e-mail) with him yesterday about this subject. He is NOT the one pushing the envelope here guys. He is keenly aware what happens with the loss of hunting blocks.

He is for the lion remaining a huntable species. The LCTF sponsored writing the definition of what a huntable male lion is (which was adopted but TAHOA). Dr. Packer put his name on the publication (along with every other major lion scientist). If he was anti-lion-hunting period...do you think he would have authored such?

I've started an email string with Blondie Leatham, Pete Fick and some other guys at the Bubye Valley. Blondie forwarded it to Paul Trethowan who's in charge of the lion research at the BVC. Paul sent me an email saying he's putting some data together, and though his study is not complete it's favorable to hunting and he's going to get as much to them to try and delay this thing. Time will tell.

Zig Mackintosh is also working on it.

At this point the very least that EVERY ONE OF US CAN DO IS - PLEASE DONATE TO JOHN JACKSON'S "CONSERVATION FORCE", PLEASE!!!

He'll lead the charge against the up-listing, and will likely have the best/most up-to-date info/facts/figures.

Remember, this isn't just about the lion - its about the future of all of Africa's wildlife!!

I have a different suggestion.

I have sent the Huntable Male Lion Definition to Saeed to post at the top of the page.

When he doses...I would suggest you read it and encourage the Major Hunting Organizations (DSC & SCI) to adopt it.

It is authored and endorsed by every major player in the scientific community.

If it is adopted universally by the hunting community...then the scientists are then on our side in writing.

quote:

Having an anti Obama signature is not going to help this cause!

That is an opinion coming from a Socialist but even Democrats hunt and seeing this is going to hurt them as well, might just open their eyes to the fact that they are backing the wrong horse

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I for one actually 'do' talk to Craig Packer. Talked (e-mail) with him yesterday about this subject. He is NOT the one pushing the envelope here guys. He is keenly aware what happens with the loss of hunting blocks.

He is for the lion remaining a huntable species. The LCTF sponsored writing the definition of what a huntable male lion is (which was adopted but TAHOA). Dr. Packer put his name on the publication (along with every other major lion scientist). If he was anti-lion-hunting period...do you think he would have authored such?

Ledvm... This is Dr. Packers comment submission. It sure seems like he has jumped the shark to me. If he thinks lions are struggling under the current system he really needs to imaging how they will survive with no hunting blocks. What is that old saying about the "the cure is worse then the disease"?

"Amy, I am attaching a series of papers that have been published the past 8 yrs that show (a) why lions are unusually vulnerable to overhunting, (b) the extent to which lions have been overhunted in Africa and in Tanzania in particular, and (c) the failure of the sport-hunting industry to adequately invest in safe-guarding their blocks. If you wish, I could also send you a copy of a paper currently in review that provides an estimate of the true costs of conserving African lions: $1,000/yr in unfenced reserves. The industry comes nowhere near providing adequate funding to cover these costs. I have had extensive experience dealing with corruption in the Tanzanian trophy hunting industry, which I would be happy to share with you informally. I was recently warned off from being too conspicuous in my efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania -- I have studied wildlife in Tanzania for 40 yrs, and the President and his Cabinet have considered revoking my research clearance in response to my "meddling" in lion hunting -- but I would be very happy to talk to you off-the-record. There have been legitimate efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania (their Parliament passed legislation in 2010 that set an age-minimum for lion trophies; the Wildlife Division has set up a system to estimate the ages of all lion trophies) but these reforms are being vigorously opposed by the corrupt hunting companies that operate with apparent impunity. I was planning to come to DC sometime in the next few weeks if you would like to meet in person. Craig Craig Packer Distinguished McKnight University Professor Department of Ecology, Evolution and Behavior University of Tanzania"

John,

What he says in his statement is true. He is for reformed lion hunting. He wants hunting at a sustainable level to contiunue. The problem as he sees it is that it is not sustainable as is. Everybody says give it time to work...he started 10 years ago...that I know of...with very little reform to speak of today. The only company that I know of that abides by his conservation suggestions is TGTS.