I agree. But there is/was no balance in his commentary. It was all anti-hunting. No concern about loss of wildlife areas etc..

If I didn't know better this esteemed long-term researcher is suggesting hunting is the sole reason for the lion decline.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I agree. But there is/was no balance in his commentary. It was all anti-hunting. No concern about loss of wildlife areas etc..

If I didn't know better this esteemed long-term researcher is suggesting hunting is the sole reason for the lion decline.

Lane - The fact is, we both know Packer's motives, just as we know his temperment. JJ warned him about his articles, and the interpretation that would be used by the antis to go after a lion up-listing, and lion "hunting" as the root of the problem. Now he's asking JJ what he can to do help - when what he's already done is help put the "nail in the coffin" for the future of Africa's wild lions.

We both know he's often played both sides of the fence, and this is a prime example. You can't put the spilled milk back in the bottle, but apparently he can show everyone how defiant he can be when it doesn't go exactly the way he wants it to.

I thought this was about the Lion, that's what I have fought for. Apparently for others, its about themselves!

quote:

"Amy, I am attaching a series of papers that have been published the past 8 yrs that show (a) why lions are unusually vulnerable to overhunting, (b) the extent to which lions have been overhunted in Africa and in Tanzania in particular, and (c) the failure of the sport-hunting industry to adequately invest in safe-guarding their blocks. If you wish, I could also send you a copy of a paper currently in review that provides an estimate of the true costs of conserving African lions: $1,000/yr in unfenced reserves. The industry comes nowhere near providing adequate funding to cover these costs. I have had extensive experience dealing with corruption in the Tanzanian trophy hunting industry, which I would be happy to share with you informally. I was recently warned off from being too conspicuous in my efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania -- I have studied wildlife in Tanzania for 40 yrs, and the President and his Cabinet have considered revoking my research clearance in response to my "meddling" in lion hunting -- but I would be very happy to talk to you off-the-record. There have been legitimate efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania (their Parliament passed legislation in 2010 that set an age-minimum for lion trophies; the Wildlife Division has set up a system to estimate the ages of all lion trophies) but these reforms are being vigorously opposed by the corrupt hunting companies that operate with apparent impunity. I was planning to come to DC sometime in the next few weeks if you would like to meet in person. Craig Craig Packer Distinguished McKnight University Professor Department of Ecology, Evolution and Behavior University of Tanzania"

It would seem that Mr. Packer is most concerned simply about his own dog in the race and that race is in Tanzania.

Not that I would want to see the Lion uplisted for Tanzania only, but a "global" approach to banning the import for Americans will not only hurt Tanzania, the area putting the burr under Packer's saddle, but also people like Andrew Baldry in Zambia who used the money from one Lion to rejuvenate a poached out area to the benefit of both the Lions and the community.

Crying shame the direction this is going, especially if it's about one person's ego.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

"Amy, I am attaching a series of papers that have been published the past 8 yrs that show (a) why lions are unusually vulnerable to overhunting, (b) the extent to which lions have been overhunted in Africa and in Tanzania in particular, and (c) the failure of the sport-hunting industry to adequately invest in safe-guarding their blocks. If you wish, I could also send you a copy of a paper currently in review that provides an estimate of the true costs of conserving African lions: $1,000/yr in unfenced reserves. The industry comes nowhere near providing adequate funding to cover these costs. I have had extensive experience dealing with corruption in the Tanzanian trophy hunting industry, which I would be happy to share with you informally. I was recently warned off from being too conspicuous in my efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania -- I have studied wildlife in Tanzania for 40 yrs, and the President and his Cabinet have considered revoking my research clearance in response to my "meddling" in lion hunting -- but I would be very happy to talk to you off-the-record. There have been legitimate efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania (their Parliament passed legislation in 2010 that set an age-minimum for lion trophies; the Wildlife Division has set up a system to estimate the ages of all lion trophies) but these reforms are being vigorously opposed by the corrupt hunting companies that operate with apparent impunity. I was planning to come to DC sometime in the next few weeks if you would like to meet in person. Craig Craig Packer Distinguished McKnight University Professor Department of Ecology, Evolution and Behavior University of Tanzania"

It would seem that Mr. Packer is most concerned simply about his own dog in the race and that race is in Tanzania.

Not that I would want to see the Lion uplisted for Tanzania only, but a "global" approach to banning the import for Americans will not only hurt Tanzania, the area putting the burr under Packer's saddle, but also people like Andrew Baldry in Zambia who used the money from one Lion to rejuvenate a poached out area to the benefit of both the Lions and the community.

Crying shame the direction this is going, especially if it's about one person's ego.

Jim - I think you've seen the light!

Forwarded donation to Conservation Force earlier today!

quote:

Lane - The fact is, we both know Packer's motives, just as we know his temperment. JJ warned him about his articles, and the interpretation that would be used by the antis to go after a lion up-listing, and lion "hunting" as the root of the problem. Now he's asking JJ what he can to do help - when what he's already done is help put the "nail in the coffin" for the future of Africa's wild lions.

We both know he's often played both sides of the fence, and this is a prime example. You can't put the spilled milk back in the bottle, but apparently he can show everyone how defiant he can be when it doesn't go exactly the way he wants it to.

I thought this was about the Lion, that's what I have fought for. Apparently for others, its about themselves!

quote:

It would seem that Mr. Packer is most concerned simply about his own dog in the race and that race is in Tanzania.

I can't/don't disagree but Craig is not the only one that you can make that statement about.

I am not going to name any names...but you could make similar statements about someone on the other side.

quote:

Remember this isn't just about the lion - it is about the future of All of Africas wildlife.

Problem that people need to understand, is that is not just about the lion or African wildlife, but wildlife world wide and how it is managed.

Once the lion is given this "Protection" it willmake it easier to extend said "Protection" to species world wide.

Thi is not a "Chicken Little - Sky Is Falling Attitude", just reality. Once a species is given this type of "Protection" it is too easy to extend such "Protection" to other species.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Remember this isn't just about the lion - it is about the future of All of Africas wildlife.

Problem that people need to understand, is that is not just about the lion or African wildlife, but wildlife world wide and how it is managed.

Once the lion is given this "Protection" it willmake it easier to extend said "Protection" to species world wide.

Thi is not a "Chicken Little - Sky Is Falling Attitude", just reality. Once a species is given this type of "Protection" it is too easy to extend such "Protection" to other species.

Well, maybe we should enlist Dr. Packer to assist in Elephant conservation as well?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Lane - The fact is, we both know Packer's motives, just as we know his temperment. JJ warned him about his articles, and the interpretation that would be used by the antis to go after a lion up-listing, and lion "hunting" as the root of the problem. Now he's asking JJ what he can to do help - when what he's already done is help put the "nail in the coffin" for the future of Africa's wild lions.

We both know he's often played both sides of the fence, and this is a prime example. You can't put the spilled milk back in the bottle, but apparently he can show everyone how defiant he can be when it doesn't go exactly the way he wants it to.

I thought this was about the Lion, that's what I have fought for. Apparently for others, its about themselves!

quote:

It would seem that Mr. Packer is most concerned simply about his own dog in the race and that race is in Tanzania.

I can't/don't disagree but Craig is not the only one that you can make that statement about.

I am not going to name any names...but you could make similar statements about someone on the other side.

Lane - Of course we both know exactly who you're referring to. And yes, we too have both voiced concern to eachother as to some of "his" motives as well. But I think you would agree - there's never been a question about which side "he's" on, ever!!!

Here is the deal. Tz promised initially to be transparent with the inspections and publish the results. Well they haven't and we all know why...because if the results were great...they would be shouting it from the roof-tops.

However...there is a lot of good happening. For one...lion harvested are way down...~40 for 2012 in Tz. With decreased harvest trends...all it would take to appease Craig would be transparency in the trophy assessment. However...with out mentioning names...there a 2 huge egos keeping them a secret.

With a little cooperation...the Lion could be the winner...things are heading in the right direction. But 3-4 egos (admittedly CP being one) are at a stand-off and the lion will be the loser.

Could we shoot "Them" and save the lions?




Egos destroying science--well its not the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
John,

The only company that I know of that abides by his conservation suggestions is TGTS.

I tend to disagree. If Mr Packer was to have a look at all the Lions posted on AR this year, which by the way is a random selection, then he would notice that many have adopted his suggestions. Either that or the Lion populations are of sufficient density to take off aged males?

Made a comment for what it's worth.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
John,

The only company that I know of that abides by his conservation suggestions is TGTS.

I tend to disagree. If Mr Packer was to have a look at all the Lions posted on AR this year, which by the way is a random selection, then he would notice that many have adopted his suggestions. Either that or the Lion populations are of sufficient density to take off aged males?

Hi Andrew,
I agree with your observation but let me clarify what I meant.

Craig Packer saw the hand-writing on the wall for the lion over 10 years ago. He began preaching the conservation tactics you mention seeing 10 years ago.

Ten years ago TGTS embraced the conservation techniques set out by CP in it's blocks and Lion have thrived in them. The Kigosi block that Adam Clements took over from them (after they had managed for over 10 years) and showed the lion inhabiting it right here on AR was living proof of how well Dr. Packer's management techniques work.

Now with the petition before USFW (and NOT from Packer) Packer's documentation of the decline with out serious reform is putting the nail in the coffin. But...it is not opinion doing it but facts.

I have visited with CP several times in the last 24 hours. There is still some hope here.

Positives...Craig is the first to say that lion have done well in the fenced conservancies in Zimbabwe and elsewhere like Bubye, Save, etc. In TZ the harvest number is down and the indiscriminate shooting of 2 and 3's is way down.

All it would really take for Dr. Packer to help put the brakes on USFW would be:

1) For TZ to be open and transparent with it's trophy inspection process where he could verify for the USFW that the 6 yr old law is being upheld.

2) adoption of the "The Huntable Male Lion" definition...authored by he and all of the major lion scientists, Aaron Neilson, myself, and other members of the hunting industry...by SCI, DSC, and the various PH associations.

And 3) serious embracement of facts set forth by his research documenting the decline of the lion with serious effort put forward by the hunting community to adopt "best-practice" management to combat the decline.

Lane,
With all due respect to CP, what exactly does he say IS NOT transparent with the TZ lion aging process? Is it the fact that HE is not part of the assessment?

From what I know, IGF - who are the appointed age assessors on behalf of the Wildlife Division in TZ - are transparent and professional. Their results for 2011 have been submitted to the Director of Wildlife ages ago. CP wanted access to them which was denied. I don't see anyhting wrong with that? In his comments to the ESA he moans about being targeted by the "corrupt hunting fraternity"? No wonder with the public statements he makes against hunting!

If he is willing to support the ESA listing to simply "prove a point" that he can, then I question his sincerity in doing what's right for the lion.