quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
John,

The only company that I know of that abides by his conservation suggestions is TGTS.

I tend to disagree. If Mr Packer was to have a look at all the Lions posted on AR this year, which by the way is a random selection, then he would notice that many have adopted his suggestions. Either that or the Lion populations are of sufficient density to take off aged males?

Hi Andrew,
I agree with your observation but let me clarify what I meant.

Craig Packer saw the hand-writing on the wall for the lion over 10 years ago. He began preaching the conservation tactics you mention seeing 10 years ago.

Ten years ago TGTS embraced the conservation techniques set out by CP in it's blocks and Lion have thrived in them. The Kigosi block that Adam Clements took over from them (after they had managed for over 10 years) and showed the lion inhabiting it right here on AR was living proof of how well Dr. Packer's management techniques work.

Now with the petition before USFW (and NOT from Packer) Packer's documentation of the decline with out serious reform is putting the nail in the coffin. But...it is not opinion doing it but facts.

I have visited with CP several times in the last 24 hours. There is still some hope here.

Positives...Craig is the first to say that lion have done well in the fenced conservancies in Zimbabwe and elsewhere like Bubye, Save, etc. In TZ the harvest number is down and the indiscriminate shooting of 2 and 3's is way down.

All it would really take for Dr. Packer to help put the brakes on USFW would be:

1) For TZ to be open and transparent with it's trophy inspection process where he could verify for the USFW that the 6 yr old law is being upheld.

2) adoption of the "The Huntable Male Lion" definition...authored by he and all of the major lion scientists, Aaron Neilson, myself, and other members of the hunting industry...by SCI, DSC, and the various PH associations.

And 3) serious embracement of facts set forth by his research documenting the decline of the lion with serious effort put forward by the hunting community to adopt "best-practice" management to combat the decline.

To address your points:

1) See the Bwanamich comment or if USFW is so concerned then they should do the ageing on imports themselves?

2) Tell us how we adopt it and consider it done. And in conjunction with USFW?

3) We in Zambia are undergoing that with the very qualified Paula White?

What I suggest is a petition of our own to USFW noting that the ramifications would be catastrophic for wildlife not just the Lion. Thousands of square kilometres of Africa would implode along with it countless communities that are dependant on incomes from safari hunting.

Cheers

Bwanamich,
I can't/don't argue with you. But...USFW's guy is CP. They believe in his data and research...rightly or wrongly. If you want USFW to listen...give CP access to the aging assessment...it is as simple as that.

In regards to CP being pro-hunting...all I can say is that he did endorse the definition of a "huntable male lion" putting his name on the a document saying is was fine to hunt these lion which kept value on the lion. You must agree with the definition as you helped author it.

quote:

originally posted by JohnHunt:
I would like to know how Dr. Packer sees this playing out for the long term benefit of wild lions. His reaction seems more in line with wanting revenge against the hunting community for not moving fast enough with his 6 year old concept. Too bad because just as it was coming on board and getting traction this happened. He must believe that the hunting blocks won't be changed to other uses. That operators will continue as usual just with lion off the menu. I don't see it playing out that way and in 20 years the wild lion will be a rare thing indeed.

quote:

originally posted by fujotupu:
Packer achieved what he was aiming to do from the very beginning - regrettably at the hunting industry's expense which culminates in the client losing out.
A great pity that some individuals backed Packer along his road to success.

quote:

I for one actually 'do' talk to Craig Packer. Talked (e-mail) with him yesterday about this subject. He is NOT the one pushing the envelope here guys. He is keenly aware what happens with the loss of hunting blocks.

He is for the lion remaining a huntable species. The LCTF sponsored writing the definition of what a huntable male lion is (which was adopted but TAHOA). Dr. Packer put his name on the publication (along with every other major lion scientist). If he was anti-lion-hunting period...do you think he would have authored such?

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

originally posted by JohnHunt:
Ledvm... This is Dr. Packers comment submission. It sure seems like he has jumped the shark to me. If he thinks lions are struggling under the current system he really needs to imaging how they will survive with no hunting blocks. What is that old saying about the "the cure is worse then the disease"?

"Amy, I am attaching a series of papers that have been published the past 8 yrs that show (a) why lions are unusually vulnerable to overhunting, (b) the extent to which lions have been overhunted in Africa and in Tanzania in particular, and (c) the failure of the sport-hunting industry to adequately invest in safe-guarding their blocks. If you wish, I could also send you a copy of a paper currently in review that provides an estimate of the true costs of conserving African lions: $1,000/yr in unfenced reserves. The industry comes nowhere near providing adequate funding to cover these costs. I have had extensive experience dealing with corruption in the Tanzanian trophy hunting industry, which I would be happy to share with you informally. I was recently warned off from being too conspicuous in my efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania -- I have studied wildlife in Tanzania for 40 yrs, and the President and his Cabinet have considered revoking my research clearance in response to my "meddling" in lion hunting -- but I would be very happy to talk to you off-the-record. There have been legitimate efforts to reform lion hunting in Tanzania (their Parliament passed legislation in 2010 that set an age-minimum for lion trophies; the Wildlife Division has set up a system to estimate the ages of all lion trophies) but these reforms are being vigorously opposed by the corrupt hunting companies that operate with apparent impunity. I was planning to come to DC sometime in the next few weeks if you would like to meet in person. Craig Craig Packer Distinguished McKnight University Professor Department of Ecology, Evolution and Behavior University of Tanzania"

quote:

John,

What he says in his statement is true. He is for reformed lion hunting. He wants hunting at a sustainable level to contiunue. The problem as he sees it is that it is not sustainable as is. Everybody says give it time to work...he started 10 years ago...that I know of...with very little reform to speak of today. The only company that I know of that abides by his conservation suggestions is TGTS.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

originally posted by JohnHunt:
I agree. But there is/was no balance in his commentary. It was all anti-hunting. No concern about loss of wildlife areas etc..

If I didn't know better this esteemed long-term researcher is suggesting hunting is the sole reason for the lion decline.

quote:

Lane - The fact is, we both know Packer's motives, just as we know his temperment. JJ warned him about his articles, and the interpretation that would be used by the antis to go after a lion up-listing, and lion "hunting" as the root of the problem. Now he's asking JJ what he can to do help - when what he's already done is help put the "nail in the coffin" for the future of Africa's wild lions.

We both know he's often played both sides of the fence, and this is a prime example. You can't put the spilled milk back in the bottle, but apparently he can show everyone how defiant he can be when it doesn't go exactly the way he wants it to.

I thought this was about the Lion, that's what I have fought for. Apparently for others, its about themselves!

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

quote:

I can't/don't disagree but Craig is not the only one that you can make that statement about.

I am not going to name any names...but you could make similar statements about someone on the other side.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

Here is the deal. Tz promised initially to be transparent with the inspections and publish the results. Well they haven't and we all know why...because if the results were great...they would be shouting it from the roof-tops.

However...there is a lot of good happening. For one...lion harvested are way down...~40 for 2012 in Tz. With decreased harvest trends...all it would take to appease Craig would be transparency in the trophy assessment. However...with out mentioning names...there a 2 huge egos keeping them a secret.

With a little cooperation...the Lion could be the winner...things are heading in the right direction. But 3-4 egos (admittedly CP being one) are at a stand-off and the lion will be the loser.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

Hi Andrew,
I agree with your observation but let me clarify what I meant.

Craig Packer saw the hand-writing on the wall for the lion over 10 years ago. He began preaching the conservation tactics you mention seeing 10 years ago.

Ten years ago TGTS embraced the conservation techniques set out by CP in it's blocks and Lion have thrived in them. The Kigosi block that Adam Clements took over from them (after they had managed for over 10 years) and showed the lion inhabiting it right here on AR was living proof of how well Dr. Packer's management techniques work.

Now with the petition before USFW (and NOT from Packer) Packer's documentation of the decline with out serious reform is putting the nail in the coffin. But...it is not opinion doing it but facts.

I have visited with CP several times in the last 24 hours. There is still some hope here.

Positives...Craig is the first to say that lion have done well in the fenced conservancies in Zimbabwe and elsewhere like Bubye, Save, etc. In TZ the harvest number is down and the indiscriminate shooting of 2 and 3's is way down.

All it would really take for Dr. Packer to help put the brakes on USFW would be:

1) For TZ to be open and transparent with it's trophy inspection process where he could verify for the USFW that the 6 yr old law is being upheld.

2) adoption of the "The Huntable Male Lion" definition...authored by he and all of the major lion scientists, Aaron Neilson, myself, and other members of the hunting industry...by SCI, DSC, and the various PH associations.

And 3) serious embracement of facts set forth by his research documenting the decline of the lion with serious effort put forward by the hunting community to adopt "best-practice" management to combat the decline.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

originally posted by Bwanamich:
Lane,
With all due respect to CP, what exactly does he say IS NOT transparent with the TZ lion aging process? Is it the fact that HE is not part of the assessment?

From what I know, IGF - who are the appointed age assessors on behalf of the Wildlife Division in TZ - are transparent and professional. Their results for 2011 have been submitted to the Director of Wildlife ages ago. CP wanted access to them which was denied. I don't see anyhting wrong with that? In his comments to the ESA he moans about being targeted by the "corrupt hunting fraternity"? No wonder with the public statements he makes against hunting!

If he is willing to support the ESA listing to simply "prove a point" that he can, then I question his sincerity in doing what's right for the lion.

quote:

Bwanamich,
I can't/don't argue with you. But...USFW's guy is CP. They believe in his data and research...rightly or wrongly. If you want USFW to listen...give CP access to the aging assessment...it is as simple as that.

In regards to CP being pro-hunting...all I can say is that he did endorse the definition of a "huntable male lion" putting his name on the a document saying is was fine to hunt these lion which kept value on the lion. You must agree with the definition as you helped author it.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

Somebody kick Lane back in the water before Craig Packer filets him.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
John,

The only company that I know of that abides by his conservation suggestions is TGTS.

I tend to disagree. If Mr Packer was to have a look at all the Lions posted on AR this year, which by the way is a random selection, then he would notice that many have adopted his suggestions. Either that or the Lion populations are of sufficient density to take off aged males?

Hi Andrew,
I agree with your observation but let me clarify what I meant.

Craig Packer saw the hand-writing on the wall for the lion over 10 years ago. He began preaching the conservation tactics you mention seeing 10 years ago.

Ten years ago TGTS embraced the conservation techniques set out by CP in it's blocks and Lion have thrived in them. The Kigosi block that Adam Clements took over from them (after they had managed for over 10 years) and showed the lion inhabiting it right here on AR was living proof of how well Dr. Packer's management techniques work.

Now with the petition before USFW (and NOT from Packer) Packer's documentation of the decline with out serious reform is putting the nail in the coffin. But...it is not opinion doing it but facts.

I have visited with CP several times in the last 24 hours. There is still some hope here.

Positives...Craig is the first to say that lion have done well in the fenced conservancies in Zimbabwe and elsewhere like Bubye, Save, etc. In TZ the harvest number is down and the indiscriminate shooting of 2 and 3's is way down.

All it would really take for Dr. Packer to help put the brakes on USFW would be:

1) For TZ to be open and transparent with it's trophy inspection process where he could verify for the USFW that the 6 yr old law is being upheld.

2) adoption of the "The Huntable Male Lion" definition...authored by he and all of the major lion scientists, Aaron Neilson, myself, and other members of the hunting industry...by SCI, DSC, and the various PH associations.

And 3) serious embracement of facts set forth by his research documenting the decline of the lion with serious effort put forward by the hunting community to adopt "best-practice" management to combat the decline.

To address your points:

1) See the Bwanamich comment or if USFW is so concerned then they should do the ageing on imports themselves?

2) Tell us how we adopt it and consider it done. And in conjunction with USFW?

3) We in Zambia are undergoing that with the very qualified Paula White?

What I suggest is a petition of our own to USFW noting that the ramifications would be catastrophic for wildlife not just the Lion. Thousands of square kilometres of Africa would implode along with it countless communities that are dependant on incomes from safari hunting.

Cheers

Andrew,
I addressed Mich's points above. Paula's name is listed right along Craig's on the definition as she co-authored as well.

A PDF copy of the definition will be in you e-mail shortly.

As stated to Mich...rightly or wrongly...if you want USFW to listen...give CP access to the data...they have put their faith in him.

I have known for a long time this would be the case and that is why I have tried to keep the hunting community from alienating CP. I don't always agree with him either.

Guys,

I am going to put this in Texan terms so that even Brad can understand.

When it gets right down to the nut-cuttin...after the US elections...the USFW can probably get done what ever it wants to...even in the court system (remember Obamacare).

So in the environment in which we now exist (which I do not like either...read my signature)...if you want to save lion hunting...you must do it by persuading USFW to act pro-hunting.

The only way to do that is to get people like Craig Packer to provide hunting favorable information to USFW.

You DON'T do that by excluding him from the data (and Bwanamich you know exactly who is doing that) and you DON'T fail to adopt and get on record for all the world to see a pro-hunting statement co-authored by him...hence the "Huntable Male Lion Definition".

let me spell it out for you Lane, If Craig Packer is going to be who decides whether the lion is uplisted or not THE LION WILL BE UPLISTED. You brown nosing and thinking you are going to change his documented goal of ending lion hunting will have zero effect on the final outcome. Perhaps your time would have been better spent fighting the Anti's rather than helping them by chasing your tail.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Lane,
With all due respect to CP, what exactly does he say IS NOT transparent with the TZ lion aging process? Is it the fact that HE is not part of the assessment?

From what I know, IGF - who are the appointed age assessors on behalf of the Wildlife Division in TZ - are transparent and professional. Their results for 2011 have been submitted to the Director of Wildlife ages ago. CP wanted access to them which was denied. I don't see anyhting wrong with that? In his comments to the ESA he moans about being targeted by the "corrupt hunting fraternity"? No wonder with the public statements he makes against hunting!

If he is willing to support the ESA listing to simply "prove a point" that he can, then I question his sincerity in doing what's right for the lion.

IMO CP has been playing double standards all along and I will stick with my opinion and for that matter I don't trust any of the others either (PC) being one of them!

The LCTF sponsored definition:

The Definition of a Huntable Male Lion:

The hunting and scientific communities agree that lion hunting must be biologically sustainable, in which harvests should have no negative long-term impact on lion populations. An essential step in attaining sustainability is the adoption of standards on what is a ‘huntable’ male lion; that is, a lion that can be hunted without any negative effect on the sustainability of the local population from which it is removed.

The most important factor to consider is age. The exact age of a huntable male lion is dependent upon many regional factors such as habitat and associated differences in lion ecology and social structure and thus, may vary slightly regionally, but the general concept holds true for all. The below definition has been endorsed by scientists working in Tanzania, Mozambique, and Zambia.

Huntable male lions are defined as those male lions whose off -take has no negative impact on the sustainability of local lion population dynamics. Research has shown that these are typically lions six years of age or more that have completed at least one breeding cycle. To reduce risks of infanticide, males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less) should not be hunted. Based on these considerations, a huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs. The ideal huntable lion is an older individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association with any pride.

For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion. Research models have confirmed that responsible hunting does not alter wild lion population dynamics if restricted to males which meet the criteria of a huntable lion.

The Definition of a Huntable Male Lion Authored By: (in alphabetical order)

Colleen Begg, Ph.D
Project Leader, Niassa Carnivore Project
Niassa National Reserve, Mozambique

J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Cofounding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

George Hartley, BA, LL.B
Professional Hunter
Tanzania Game Tracker Safaris

Luke Hunter, Ph.D
President
PANTHERA

Aaron Neilson
Professional Hunter
President, Global Hunting Resources
Cofounding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

Craig Packer, Ph.D.
Distinguished McKnight University Professor
Department of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior
University of Minnesota
Principal Investigator, Serengeti Lion Project

Paula A. White, Ph.D
Director, Zambia Lion Project
Center for Tropical Research
University of California, Los Angeles USA

Karyl L. Whitman, Ph.D
Wildlife Biologist
Co-Author, A Hunter’s Guide to Aging Lions in Eastern and Southern Africa

Brad and all,

The above is a pro-hunting statement endorsed by Craig and many others.

quote:

The ideal huntable lion is an older individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association with any pride.

For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion.

The above is impossible to assess with 100% certainty, therefore, no more lions should be shot

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

The ideal huntable lion is an older individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association with any pride.

For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion.

The above is impossible to assess with 100% certainty, therefore, no more lions should be shot

No one asked for 100% certainty. That is why I, Aaron, and most have endorsed a Niassa Reserve type point system...where by mistakes can be coped with.

Craig Packer is also on record saying the Niassa Reserve system is the gold standard for hunting regs.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Lane,
With all due respect to CP, what exactly does he say IS NOT transparent with the TZ lion aging process? Is it the fact that HE is not part of the assessment?

From what I know, IGF - who are the appointed age assessors on behalf of the Wildlife Division in TZ - are transparent and professional. Their results for 2011 have been submitted to the Director of Wildlife ages ago. CP wanted access to them which was denied. I don't see anyhting wrong with that? In his comments to the ESA he moans about being targeted by the "corrupt hunting fraternity"? No wonder with the public statements he makes against hunting!

If he is willing to support the ESA listing to simply "prove a point" that he can, then I question his sincerity in doing what's right for the lion.

Lane - And that there is the WHOLE POINT in a nutshell.

Craig "claims" non-transperancy, but simply because he's left out of the process - and you and I both know exactly why. He's irrational, he says "A" today, and "B" tomorrow. We both know how sensitive the "African" culture is, and trying to bully those in power will get you nowhere!

We both talked about this two nights ago, and it seems Packer is willing to "bite his nose, to spite his face". If proving he has more power than the TZ govt, or proving he can shout loudest from the mountain top, is more important than the "Wild Lion" itself, then I guess he wins!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Brad and all,

The above is a pro-hunting statement endorsed by Craig and many others.

Thanks Lane and this is how most of us are now hunting. No one is shooting males out of prides anymore and it has taken but a few short years for PHs and operators alike to adopt this policy.

Personally I will take a 5 year old if he is alone or with a coalition of similar aged males. My theory being that this does not disrupt prides and in fact gives the pride male (the dominate area male) another year to spread his excellent genes. However I still struggle to age between 5 or 6.

Basically my point is that we realise the future of Lion hunting relies on conservation and this what we implement, but no one seems to acknowledge our efforts?

Better we sign a petition and get it pasted all over the globe to show that we out number the rest.

The hunting fraternity in America needs to support us 100%. Imagine if you hunters over there unilaterally decided in protest not to buy or bid for animal tags in 2013 or any hunting/fishing product? Bet USFW would sit up and listen then?

Maybe I just get my Chief to sue them for economic sabotage on the grounds that those who choose to dictate policy in Africa do know not what they are doing?

Anyway that is my rant for this evening.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Brad and all,

The above is a pro-hunting statement endorsed by Craig and many others.

Thanks Lane and this is how most of us are now hunting. No one is shooting males out of prides anymore and it has taken but a few short years for PHs and operators alike to adopt this policy.

Personally I will take a 5 year old if he is alone or with a coalition of similar aged males. My theory being that this does not disrupt prides and in fact gives the pride male (the dominate area male) another year to spread his excellent genes. However I still struggle to age between 5 or 6.

Basically my point is that we realise the future of Lion hunting relies on conservation and this what we implement, but no one seems to acknowledge our efforts?

Better we sign a petition and get it pasted all over the globe to show that we out number the rest.

The hunting fraternity in America needs to support us 100%. Imagine if you hunters over there unilaterally decided in protest not to buy or bid for animal tags in 2013 or any hunting/fishing product? Bet USFW would sit up and listen then?

Maybe I just get my Chief to sue them for economic sabotage on the grounds that those who choose to dictate policy in Africa do know not what they are doing?

Anyway that is my rant for this evening.

Cheers