Here's the real problem facing lions in Africa (human/lion conflict):

http://www.desertlion.info/news.html



10/11 Jul 2011. Hoaruseb Pride poisoned. The Desert lions suffered a big blow when the entire Hoaruseb Pride was poisoned on 10 July 2011. The three lionesses (Xpl-37 "Morada", Xpl-38 "Tawny" and Xpl-61 "Maya") died a few metres from each other in the Hoaruseb River. Samples were collected for analysis, but the poison appears to have been strychnine.Two black-backed jackals were also found dead at the scene. The radio collars were retrieved and the sculls of all three lionesses were collected. Their carcasses and those of the jackals were then burnt to prevent more animals dying from the poison. Wilderness Safaris are thanked for their help and support. This tragic event marks the end of the famous Hoaruseb lions.

Bill,

You are correct. This is a big problem for lion. But...here is the rub. If lion are listed as endangered on the ESA...we as hunters will be able to help them very little.

Poisonings will skyrocket and the lion will be a park/zoo animal.

Hunters must be viewed as part of the solution and NOT part of the problem or the priviledge to hunt lion will be taken away rightly or wrongly.

The LCTF message is to keep our (hunters) house in order so that we are the bath water that gets thrown out with the baby.

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The LCTF message is to keep our (hunters) house in order so that we are the bath water that gets thrown out with the baby.

am I reading this wrong?

Lane, yes, it is easy for anti-hunting organizations and those with agendas to villainize hunters, but to state the obvious which those who have been to various parts of Africa and hunted lion already know, once the protection and value offered by the hunting outfitters is removed, there is nothing to stand between modern-Africa and the lion.

I appreciate your efforts Lane.

not sure I get that statement about the bath water just dense i guess. But it is true if uplisting takes place lions will suffer badly. not sure I want to be bath water or the baby in it

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The LCTF message is to keep our (hunters) house in order so that we are the bath water that gets thrown out with the baby.

OK...I'll try to communicate better.

The hunting community IS the protector of the lion. We all agree on this. We give value to the lion and the habitat that is set aside for it to live. We all agree here.

The scientific community would like to support us. When I say scientific community...I am not speaking of HSUS or Born Free or any of the ones on the petition. They are NGO's with an Anti-hunting agenda.

When I say scientific community...I am speaking of Colleen Begg, Paula White, Craig Packer, Philippe Chardonette, Luke Hunter, Guy Balme, Karyl Whitman Gelatt, and the like.

The scientific community sees "properly conducted hunting" as a good conservation tool. What they have a problem with is the fact that some companies do not use what in their minds are "best-use-practices"...which includes NOT regularly taking young (<5) male lions while hunting...AND 505...knowing pretty close to what you are shooting before you pull the trigger...regardless of quota.

They have spoken about this many many times with Aaron and I. Most of those conversations took place prior to Scott and Gerry becoming active members of the LCTF.

But...my poorly communicated statement was trying to say that we (hunters) are the true conservationists and we (hunters) are the ONLY thing between the general African public (which would exterminate them)and the lion.

But...because of how we get portrayed (rightly or wrongly) that is going out the window with the ones that do have the power.

All that we (hunters) really have to do is to look at the picture and see the lion is in trouble and quit doing the things (however minor they may be in the overall scheme...which I agree) that make us appear to be part of the problem with the scientific community.

Then they (scientific community) will throw there support to us and the lion will WIN in the end.

I look at the scientific community as the independents in US election terms. I would be a far right-winged conservative. The HSUS would be a far left-wing liberal. The scinetific community would be what we as US citizens know as independents...and like our political independents...they sometimes sway back and forth.

In this battle we need the scientific community on our side. We (LCTF) are trying to show them why they should be.

I hope this clarifies my poor written statement.

not sure it was poorly written it might be i was to freaking dumb to get it but I understand and agree.

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...AND 505...knowing pretty close to what you are shooting before you pull the trigger...regardless of quota.

At what point did I not know what I was shooting? I knew it's species, it's sex, had a rough idea of it's social position, how it stacked up with another mature male that held a pride. Did I know it's exact age, no. Would I have known it's exact age if it was standing broadside in front of me? No. But you know what I would have seen, I would have seen his nose was neither black nor "splotched", which using the standards set by many of your "scientist", means I should have passed and gone home without a lion.



I tell you what Lane, why don't you work with Craig Packer to get a law passed that says you have to approve all lions before they are shot. Oh, that's right, you've never hunted wild lions, and do not have one ounce of real time experience in hunting and harvesting a wild lion. This is exactly what I have been telling you, you and the "lion hunting" police are going around making statements based in nothing but speculation and twisted logic, and you are making enemies of many hunters. I posted a basic outline of my lion hunt in complete honesty (which is something you have been proven not to have the stomach for), knowing I would draw the ire of idiots like you. I hunted lions for 15 days, passed on a couple of males I knew to be immature and in the end, I ended up harvesting a legal lion, on quota that was well past the standard that you or anyone else in this arguement describes as acceptable (not that it matters), and what do I get? You sitting at your keyboard pecking away, shaking your virtual finger in my face for what "could" have happened.
Lane, in the last few days, you have proven yourself to be dishonest, illogical, unreasonable, uninformed, misguided, inexperienced and even tyrranical in your moderation of this forums. As I stated before, you are truly a detrement to hunting.

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I would be a far right-winged conservative.

yet another misrepresentation by the pinnochio ledvm

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...AND 505...knowing pretty close to what you are shooting before you pull the trigger...regardless of quota.

So in a story that has all it's own implications for another country and it's dwindling lion population of a unique sub-set of animals......one I was fortunate enough to see......

You take a back handed swipe at this guy's hunt again?

Does your group have a clue as to how to run a PR campaign to generate the support from a broad spectrum of hunters as your cause needs?

You suck at it.

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You take a back handed swipe at this guy's hunt again?

That was the one and only thing I have ever said about 505's hunt.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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You take a back handed swipe at this guy's hunt again?

That was the one and only thing I have ever said about 505's hunt.

Sorry.....you take a swipe at his hunt....but it was just this time....

As I said.....you suck at this.

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Lane, in the last few days, you have proven yourself to be dishonest, illogical, unreasonable, uninformed, misguided, inexperienced and even tyrranical in your moderation of this forums.

I have disagreed with Lane in the past but, I do not think that any of the above is true IMHO.
BTW when we say "REAL" problem, what do we mean? The only problem? The most important problem? Can someone explain to me why it is OK for farmers in the American West to poison and shoot wolves, but not OK for Africans to do the same with lions?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

You take a back handed swipe at this guy's hunt again?

That was the one and only thing I have ever said about 505's hunt.

With all do respect it was enough!! Statements like that divide the ranks even further.

My opinion, your mileage may vary.

Cheers
Jim

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Can someone explain to me why it is OK for farmers in the American West to poison and shoot wolves, but not OK for Africans to do the same with lions?

put your waders on fellas, this is about to get deep.

no but there must be a answer but not from me