quote:

"I thought it was" is not target ID.

who said that?

Youpulled the trigger--so apparently you did

SSR

quote:

Youpulled the trigger--so apparently you did

SSR

I thought we were having a real discussion--If you want to go that way then then you are just about self gratification and arrogance, I had hoped for better.

May luck be with you

SSR

Edit-that kind of juvenile behavior is better suited to the ARPF

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I thought we were having a real discussion

Cross L, my apologies, I thought the real discussion had ended when it finally got to the point that someone who had no experience in the subject at hand was not "discussing" things any longer.

It seems to me that we some how got onto someones lion being shot. I don't think he was shot with a poison bullet. Why don't we agree the lion shot is dead shot in the heart but he was not poisoned as the topic suggest. I think someone and if I remember right it was smarterthanu brought up a good issue to focus this discussion on. He talked of temic which is one used and there are others. Does any one have any ideas or questions about how to proceed with stopping this practice. It is not easy and involves compensating people for lost cattle which will be ripe for abuse but there seem to be some smart people on here than can come up with ideas. If you have one state it and IF it is a bad idea I for one will not rip it just ask for more ideas so we all can agree with a good plan. Then we can fiqure hout how to fund it and police it. Just a thought.

quote:

Does any one have any ideas or questions about how to proceed with stopping this practice. It is not easy and involves compensating people for lost cattle which will be ripe for abuse but there seem to be some smart people on here than can come up with ideas.

I have put a lot of thought into this and I am not advocating socialism in any way but I do not see how you can stop poisoing completely without some type of proffit sharing set up. Somehow you have to convince native populations that a live lion is worth more to them than a dead cow and I think the only way they can feel that is if money from the lion is going in their pocket. The only problem as with most africans is their amazing short sitedness. They will want the money for the live lions but will also see the tiny money they get if they poison the lions. Not all areas but many areas are still controlled by local chiefs even though there are structured governments over them. The people for whatever reason still live under those chief's rules and some operators have found if they cut deals, many of them fiscal, with the chiefs the native peoples will listen and obey. I do not beleive this to be a complete answer to the situation but something that could assist with other ideas people have.

now we are talking. All food for thought is good and I happen to agree 100%. I have been thinking hard about hot to structure this and keeping in mind how we would be scammed paying those people. also I am trying to think how to go about it. my guess is a meeting witha as many trbal leaders as possible which will be costly but in the long run probably worth it.

good "re-track" gerry, once again, my apologies. Perhaps the answer to this is PAC and an efficient, expedient way to market it. I would like to hear from someone with actual experience what the potential abuse problems are with PAC and potential solutions. Perhaps that should be a seperate thread.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

Does any one have any ideas or questions about how to proceed with stopping this practice. It is not easy and involves compensating people for lost cattle which will be ripe for abuse but there seem to be some smart people on here than can come up with ideas.

I have put a lot of thought into this and I am not advocating socialism in any way but I do not see how you can stop poisoing completely without some type of proffit sharing set up. Somehow you have to convince native populations that a live lion is worth more to them than a dead cow and I think the only way they can feel that is if money from the lion is going in their pocket. The only problem as with most africans is their amazing short sitedness. They will want the money for the live lions but will also see the tiny money they get if they poison the lions. Not all areas but many areas are still controlled by local chiefs even though there are structured governments over them. The people for whatever reason still live under those chief's rules and some operators have found if they cut deals, many of them fiscal, with the chiefs the native peoples will listen and obey. I do not beleive this to be a complete answer to the situation but something that could assist with other ideas people have.

Ben,

Why don't you start a new thread on ideas to stop poisoning.

This is one of the things the LCTF would like to engage and we would like to hear everyones ideas.

Thanks in advance.

Gentlemen and ladies,

I am sure that this horrible (but not solitary) example will be one of John Jackson's exhibits in Conservation Force's reply to the petition to put lions on the ESA list. If hunting is banned, then incidents like this will increase exponentially. The Kenya experience will be repeated across all of Africa.

That said, we hunters need to do what we can to help in protecting lions. Stopping the killing of immature lions before draconian laws, such as were just enacted in Tanzania, are adopted elswhere is very important. HSUS is one of the biggest of the big political contributors and they are with the President, not with us. We must not give the antis any ammunition.


Thank you for reading this.

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Stopping the killing of immature lions before draconian laws, such as were just enacted in Tanzania, are adopted elswhere is very important.

No it isn't. Setting conservative conservation driven quotas and sticking to them is what we need. This is what you need to manage lion populations. That may mean killing young males. That may mean you shoot females. The fight within our ranks has been designed by the anti-hunters and we are falling into it. The fight should be with politicians and the non-hunting, non anti individuals to recognize this is all a pr game driven by emotion and no science. At this point of the game you should recognize that Craig Packer is not on your side and any significant decrease in lion shot by sport hunters he would translate into a deduction of total lion populations and use this against us the next time. Making hunters limit their harvest to what you deam fit will decreas the total lion harvist and give Craig Packer the numbers he wants to see so he can use it as ammunition against us.

National News
15.07.2011
End of the lion
By: CHRIS BAKKES

In a special tribute, Chris Bakkes, author, nature lover and conservationist, tells the unique story of how a pride of lions strolled into the Hoarusib River ten years ago. Staking their claim in the desert, the desert lions who had fled the area more than a decade ago became the centre of a journey of discovery. Their reclamation was a joyful event for conservationists – for others the return of the lions was viewed with fear and distrust. But, in the end, they became a jewel in the crown of the Kunene Region. Now, they are gone. Bakkes remembers their story.
THE BEGINNING ...
IN April 2001four lions came walking into the Hoarusib River valley. The three adult males and one adult female walked all the way in from the upper Barab River, two hundred and fifty kilometres to the south. It was the first time in 13 years that lions had taken up residence in the Hoarusib River.
The human population received them with mixed emotions. Local tour operators were happy to have them back while the pastoral residents of Purros were up in arms.
The lions got into trouble from the outset. Their first meal in the Hoarusib was Headman Daniel Karotjaiva’s prized stud bull. After that they killed several cows and donkeys.
Wilderness Safaris and other operators started a compensation scheme in order to ensure the survival of the lions. This was the start of an uneasy relationship between man and lion in the Hoarusib River.
The lions soon moved down river into the Skeleton Coast Park. Shortly after their arrival the female gave birth to two female cubs at the fresh water spring at the mouth of the Hoarusib River. These were the first cubs to be born within sight of the sea in the Park for more than a decade.
During the dry season the lions remained within the boundaries of the park. Large herds of oryx could be found on the banks of the river – where they were ambushed by the lions. The lions were safe within the boundaries of the park.
The trouble started during the rainy season when the oryx dispersed to feed on the plains where the rain had fallen. It was difficult for the lions to hunt. They would then leave the park and kill livestock around Purros village.

GROWING PRIDE

In 2002 another two female cubs were born at the mouth of the river. These two females became the regular residents of the Hoarusib River for the next decade. They were often seen on safari.
The lionesses were soon joined by a male, named Leonardo, who took up the position as the dominant male of the pride. Closely monitored by Dr. Flip Stander of the Desert Lion Conservation Fund, the lionesses were christened Tawney and Morada.
The lions became bolder as they grew older. They started frequenting the settled areas. Dr Stander and Wilderness Safaris addressed the problem by creating a lion task force from local community members. A 4x4 vehicle was bought. Dr Stander gave the members radio telemetry equipment and trained them how to use it. Now the local community could monitor the lions. If the lions came close to Purros the cattle could be herded out of the river. The telemetry equipment was also used by local guides to take tourists to the lions.
One of the main threats to the lions was that the community became so used to living without lions for more than a decade, that they had stopped herding their cattle. Now with the lions back, they were reluctant to resume herding.
In the course of time the lions reared cubs. In 2008, the lionesses gave birth to two males and a female cub, Crimson, Indigo and Maya.

CONFLICT

In 2009 things came to a head when Leonardo, Tawney and Morada and three sub-adult cubs strayed into the villages of Purros and Okongombe Themba, killing donkeys and scaring people.
In November 2009 Dr Stander recruited the help of Wilderness Safaris again. Wilderness staff, vehicles, fuel and equipment was used to remove the lions from Purros.
All six lions were translocated to Sarusas spring in the Skeleton Coast Park. When they returned eight days later, they were physically prevented from re-entering the village by Wilderness staff and the lion task force. One of the females slipped through the lines to kill another donkey. She was immobilised again and taken to the Hoarusib mouth.
After three weeks the lions left the vicinity of Purros and moved down river. The community thanked Dr Stander and the Wilderness Safaris staff.
They acknowledged that their plight was taken seriously. Dr Stander pleaded with them not to kill Leonardo, the breeding male. He asked that they rather shoot one of the younger males for compensation for their stock losses. This was done a few months later in a legal hunt.
Everyone felt that a breakthrough was made. It was a good example of cooperation by all parties, buying time for the lions. Dr Stander estimated that the operation cost Wilderness Safaris close to N$100 0000
All of this was made undone shortly afterwards when Leonardo, the breeding male, was killed by an independent hunter in controversial circumstances that created a media outcry.
The other male was also later shot by herders when it wandered into a different conservancy.
That left only the two sisters, Tawney and Morada, and a young female, Maya, in the Hoarusib River.
Their lives came to an end on Saturday, July 10 2011. They died by strychnine poisoning fifteen kilometres north of Purros. Strychnine is often used by stock owners to poison predators. One can only wonder who killed the lions.
For a decade a lot of people worked together to try and find a compromise between humans and lions in the Hoarusib River. For a decade the lions caused losses, but also brought benefits to the people in the valley.
Was their death inevitable? Could a solution be reached? Are we any closer to sustainable lion tourism in the Kunene Region? Are their still too many rogue elements around? Be as it may – the lions of the Hoarusib River are dead.


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quote:

any significant decrease in lion shot by sport hunters he would translate into a deduction of total lion populations and use this against us the next time. Making hunters limit their harvest to what you deam fit will decreas the total lion harvist and give Craig Packer the numbers he wants to see so he can use it as ammunition against us.

DING!! DING!! DING!! is anyone actually reading Packers papers, listening to what he is saying, and paying attention to the above statement?

And shooting a full quota (even with 1 under 6), he will use as proof that lion hunters are killing lions not in the spirit of the conservation, rather to maintain a quota.