The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Lets Discuss the 270/280Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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one of us |
May I suggest, that since we have all had our say as ...wannabes..., (LOL), we ALL just drop this and proceed to matters of great import, such as IS the .280Rem-160NP at 2825-fps-mv, REALLY a better Elk round than the .270Win-150NP at 2850-fps-mv.........ya know.......? Since Dewey, made the suggestion, I made the post. Is 2850, with the 160 NP the top load in the 280 for that bullet? Cause, 2850 with a 150 NP in the 270 Winchester, is not the top load. Just want to be fair you now! And off we go,LOL!  NRA Benefactor Life Member | ||
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| One of Us |
Which side do you want me to take Jerry? Can I substitute the 7X64B for the .280 or maybe we should discuss the vast superiority of the 7X64B over both the .280 and .270... I have all three and haven't handloaded for any of them so in all seriousness I hope to learn something on handloading for these three cart...  | |||
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Moderator |
everyone know .007 makes a difference! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I can't wait to hear (you-know-who's) thoughts on this one. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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| One of Us |
Him or one of his two "love childs"..  But there I go being "catty"...  | |||
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| One of Us |
I am a fan of the 270 but; That being said I don't think there is an elk in the world that would know the difference between the loads listed not one. I don't think there is a man who could tell the difference between identical shots on an elk either. How's that to start the discussion, or what ever it ends up being? DW | |||
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One of Us |
actually it does....it's about 25 grains extra lead one can throw. I'll take my .280 elk hunting any day before my .270....will it make a difference?....probably not....but it's still my choice. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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The real answer is a 30-06 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| One of Us |
A good argument for the 395 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Amen brotha!!!!!!!!! And AI it for that extra special touch! | |||
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Hello vapodog, So what bullet are you using in your .280 for elk ? I am thinking a 160NP would be good but I have never shot an elk before.. Thanks. | |||
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Actually my .280 is newly finished and I haven't shot so much as a prairie dog with it yet. I have some 120 TTSX loaded for deer this fall.... For elk, I'd be looking for a 175 grain bonded bullet....possibly an accubond or interbond if they are available. If not, an A-Frame! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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One of Us |
160 gr. Swift A-Frames work just fine on elk.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Which is the top load? Also, if the .270 in question is fired from a SAKO, then it is a superior load than the .280 | |||
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| One of Us |
I am +1 with VAPODOG on this. The 7mm has the luxury of 165 and 175 grain bullets. The 270 does not. Consider this. Here in "Yurrup" we "did" 7mm (or similar) long before Winchester with its 270 or Remington with its 280. The result? In 7mm Mauser, 7 x 64, 275 H & H Magnum, 280 Ross, 275 Rigby, 280 Jeffery etc., etc. you won't find ANY with a bullet under 140 grains in weight. Indeed in most - the Ross, the Jeffery, 275 H & H, 7 x 64 the most popular loads are 154 grains or 160 grains at 2,700 to 2,800fps. Why? Here in "Yurrup" we prefer moderately heavy and not so fast! We are so small compared to USA that a lot of our game is shot at under 100 yards. In fact over 200 yards in Scotland is considered by some an "unsporting" shot the skill being in stalking into to a closer range. So the 130 grain 270 at 3,100fps is not really ideal for us. It is just too destructive at those close ranges. It is designed for American wide open spaces not our shooting style. Now...if someone other than Nosler and Barnes made a heavy 270 bullet I certainly would buy it. Say something like the 155 grain SAKO 270 bullet but with a spitzer point? I handload my 270 with a 140 Hornady Interlock at 2,850fps but I think that even that is too fast by maybe 50fps to 100fps! Or a 150 grain at 2,800fps but again I'd be happier with 2,700fps for that. So for me I'd prefer a 160 grain at about 2,700fps. Which I can get easily - or with five grains extra bullet weight as a 165 grain - in my 280. So for here the 280 is the better choice. Which conclusion the Germans had already arrived at with the 7 x 64 some many years earlier! So really the 280 Remington is just a 7 x 64 Improved...given Remington's equivalent (except the shoulder angle) of the Ackley treatment. In fact the 280 Remington is pretty much the 7 x 64 in how it would have been from the start if God and not Mr Brenneke had designed it!  But with currently available non-premium bullets the 270 is not ideal for Europe. The 280 (or 7 x 64) has the better bullet weight and velocity combinations for how we shoot here. | |||
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| Moderator |
ya'll know that when i hunt with a small bore, its a 7x64, right? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
There was a time when the .270-.280 discussion was cleaner and more distinct. The advent of many premium bullets have advanced the .277 bullets dramatically and IMO have situated the .270 as a fair elk cartridge. Yes the same has helped the 7mm bullets too but the .270 was where the biggest help was needed. Prior to bonded bullets the .270 was a marginal (at least IMO) elk round and today it's (again IMO) fully adequate. That said....I'd still rather have the .280! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I have shot elk with both the .270 and .280 with the bullets you noted. The elk all died quickly. Either gun works equally well. I have taken oryx and kudu with the .280. My sons took kudu and wildebeast with .243 and .270. Put the bullet in the right spot and it will die everytime. | |||
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This is the answer to all caliber related questions. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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| One of Us |
Sure there are more bullets available for the 280.The original post specified a 150 NP 270 vs a 160 NP 280 with only 25 fps difference in velocity. So, to answer the original question, there is not a bit of difference. There is probably more difference in individual velocities in a 5 shot string from either caliber. And No, 2850 is not the top load for any 150 grain bullet in the 270. I don't own a 280 so I can't say anything about top loads there but I doubt that 2825 is the top fot that caliber either. If something different were allowed I think the 280 AI would deliver the best velocity, or knock down of either the 270 or 280. But then you'd have to argue about 7mm rum's and 270 Weatherby's etc. DW | |||
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325 WSM....best all around cartridge for north america....323 @ 200 grns @ 2800   Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| One of Us |
I prefer the 7mm bullets. | |||
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| One of Us |
The real answer is the 30-06 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| One of Us |
North America = 30-06  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| one of us |
In my opinion the .270 WSM trumps both the .270 and .280. With 150 grain North Fork Or Nosler Partition bullets at 3175 fps, how does that compare. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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One of Us |
For the sake of an even plane, let's assume anything over 2800fps doesn't matter, 2800 being enough to bloodshot adequate quantities of meat with either cartridge. When I had a 270s, they shot more accurately with 130-140gr bullets, and not so good with 150gr bullets. I have a 280 with a 10" twist barrel, and it likes 140 & 145 gr bullets best, 150-154gr ok, and I didn't like the accuracy with the one 160gr bullet I tested. So, since then I've had the notion that with the same twist rate of 10", the two cartridges are basically on the even plane. 270 likes 130-140 gr bullets /// 280 likes 140-145gr bullets - maybe 150gr. Loaded to the same pressure, I can't see that the velocity will be different by enough to matter. If you had a 270 with a 9" twist rate, and a 280 with the same twist, then they would also be comparable very closely, but what appears to seperate the cartridges is the difference in bullets weights each will properly handle - 270 with 10" twist, and 280 with 9". KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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275 Rigby Improved of course. Give me the same ballistics as a .280. Mike for a 8mm hunting round I would rather have my 8x68. since ti throws the same bullets a little faster and ovously has more cool points. DRSS Kreighoff 470 NE Valmet 412 30/06 & 9.3x74R | |||
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+1. And that's the nub. The 270 is just too fast with what's available off the shelf and Remington's 150 grain offering is handicapped by its round nose. | |||
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| one of us |
Not sure on Elk, but velocity deltas are in range (i.e. 270 will be 25-50 fps with 150s vs 160s in 280). In my experience, given equal barrels you can get about 25-30 fps more velocity with the .280 than with the .270 given same bullet weights. These twins are easily my favorite medium game rifles and I have custom rifles built for both as well as owning several others. The .280 is a lightweight with 23" barrel and the .270 is tad heavier with a 24" barrel (both Douglas and fast compared to typical factory guns I have used in each). With the same bullet weigths and max loads velocities are equal. The .280 normally takes 1-2 gr of more powder to get same velocity and of course would be a hair faster in a 1" longer barrel. Lou | |||
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| One of Us |
I have had at least a dozen .270Win. rifles since my first, an Al Biesen Fwt. I bought at age 22 in 1968 and five .280 Rems. plus have another action/barrel ready to go. These have had bbls. ranging between 20.5"-HVA 4100 to 24"-Pre-64 Mod. 70s and custom tubes. On average, using about a half dozen different chronographs over the years, I have found that the 150NPs in the .270Win. will give 2900 fps. on max. loads I consider "safe" from 22" tubes and the .280 Rem. will give 2800+ with 160NPs. I have read "gun rag" articles giving much higher velocities, but, then I have heard that the authors thereof later recanted and stated their data WAS too "hot". Some of these gun writers were LEGENDS, I know this because other gun writers said so in their articles. But, bullshit is bullshit, no matter how many ...truckloads of big game... some suburban "egspurt" claims to have killed. I have loaded about 150 .280 rounds with 150 BTs and NPs, but, am having that .280 fitted with a 3-pos. safety at Martini's, so, will not get them chronoed this summer. I don't really care, either, as these two rounds, to me, represent the most practical hunting cartridges we have for most hunting here in Canada and that is all I am interested in. The high, but, useful velocities of these rounds plus the light recoil in rifles one wants to pack up mountains, makes them easy to shoot well and bullet placement and performance is what is really important in killing any game, IMHO. There is NO discernable difference on BC game that I have ever noticed, but, since I like both rounds, I just have some rifles in each and can thus avoid stressful debates as to which is "best"........ | |||
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| one of us |
My concern about speed is at the point of the animal, not muzzle. My .270 WSM's provide me with the speeds I want at 250 too 300 yards. Now if that does not concern you, so be it. I want the flattest shooting bullet possible at those distances, for both bean field Deer in the East and Mule and Whitetail Deer in the West. I could care less about meat damage, I want the animal on the ground. Yes, I love the meat, but a 1 too 2 pound of meat damage on an animal weighting 175 pounds is of no concern. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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| One of Us |
Since Winchester came out with the 7mm WSM, I don't understand why 90% of all the old 270s, 270 WSMs, 280s, 7mm Rem Mags, 270 Weatherbys, etc. haven't ended up in pawn shops, and flooded GB. Don't we all want to shoot these new cartridges at 64,000psi, and set up on bean fields, or across canyons? The real comparison is between the 270 WSM and the 7mm WSM. There's gotta be something to argue about there? And we're letting a really good one slip away - the 7mm Rem Short Ultra Mag. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| one of us |
The 7mm WSM is a great chambering, in fact I am looking for one that a left handed grandson would relish. I already have a 7mm STW and a great collection of 7mm bullets that I could play with. The beauty part of having 6 grandsons is, they all need a fine shooting iron for Deer, Elk and whatever else they want to hunt, accompanied by old grandad of course. Many chamberings are very close to each other in performance, why knock them, try them and find out their strong points, if enough show up, they are keepers. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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| One of Us |
The 280 and the 270 are excellent , the 280 has a greater selection of bullets though. I have shot both and both perform very well, game won't know the difference. Free speech has been executed on the altar of political correctness. | |||
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| One of Us |
Both the .270 and the .280 are marginal for elk. That said, most rifles are easily rebored or rebarreled to the .35 Whelen. With the frontal area and weight of a 250 grain bullet, you have a real elk rifle out to any reasonable range. | |||
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This could be worse...it could be .308 vs. 30.06. Ouch. My head hurts. | |||
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35 Whelen, 14" twist, 225 gr bullet, starting at about 2700 fps. That would be my choice for elk, 225gr TSX, or Accubond, or Partition, or Swift, etc. - perfect. And maybe the Sierra 225 gr for deer, and hogs. Hard to beat. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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It is difficult to discuss the vast differences between the 270 and the 280 without realizing that we sorely need a cartridge to bridge the gap between them. Therefore, I am proposing the 281 Windbag. It is based on a 30-06 case and fires a .281" diameter bullet with an optimum weight of 153 grains. It has never been done before but it will be the perfect cartridge for every situation. The next time someone suggest that the 270 is better then the 280, or that the 280 is better than the 270, just look him in the eye and exclaim, "Windbag!" . | |||
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Thank you, Grenadier. You said it better. | |||
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I remember a Jim Carmichel article about him building a custom rifle back when he was working with Outdoor Life, preparing to take over O'Connor's position as rifle editor. He told O'Connor and was asked which caliber. In deference to the man who made the .270 as popular as it is, he said he was having it chambered in .270 Winchester. O'Connor told him to make it a .280, as it was a better caliber... I don't know that I agree, but I thought the story was interesting. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Lets Discuss the 270/280
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