You can and perhaps should dispute my premise:

Why is Whelen going no place and 9.3 on the rise? They seem about equal and the Whelen is years ahead of the 9.3 here in USA.

The 35 Whelen has been around for a long time as a wildcat and recently as a factory round, long enough to prove itself and gain a loyal following.

The 9.3x62 although around an even longer time and always as a factory load, it was never seen in the USA (not by me). Now it looks to be coming on gang busters.

I have a theory, FWIW and here is the clue: Hornady offers one load in each. The 35 is loaded with a 200 gr and the 9.3 is 285gr.

I dont see any significant advantage in using a 200gr 35 bullet over a 180 gr 30 caliber. Note, I say 'significant'. The good ol' 30-06 covers that ground well enough. But pushing ~300 grains with a small boost in power for a kicker, that seems real step up in class.

So; for what ever game, a hunter felt his trusty old 30-06 was marginal, with factory ammo, the 9.3 looks like a nice step up. Not an 9-10 lb elephant rifle either. Just one step up.

I think you've answered your own question, 4bore. the 9.3 seems to have lots going for it; some of which you have already noted. Like the 375 H&H it seems to be the "right" combo of factors to make it a world class cartridge for about everything most of us will ever hunt and ranges most of us will ever shoot.

where in NE are ya?

Jeff

Peoples republic (aka commonwealth) of Mass.

My intention is not to ruffle feathers. This is just my humble opinion.

If you are going to use the .35 Whelen, you use 250g bullets. Doesn't Remington offer a 250g, 35 Whelen load? I can't see or understand using a 200g bullet in a .35 Whelen. Sorry.

So if you want to compare and discuss the merits the 9.3x62 shooting 285g bullets against the .35 Whelen, you must match it up with a 250g .358 bullet.

Now for those who believe there is a significant difference between a .366 bore and a .358 bore... well... knock yourselves out discussing it. I'll pass.

In the end, they are both great rounds that will get the job done with no noticeable difference.

Ah yes, taxachusetts. acutally trying to work down there as we speak.

mmaggi, i believe woodleigh makes a 310 grainer. however, the limits of the 06 hull take velocity down pretty low and i cannot discuss how such a bullet would behave at those velocities. i suppose woodleigh has already given this some thought... one solution might be to set up a 35 Whelen AI or a Brown-Whelen to up the velocity or use a 358 Norma. Then again, for all the trouble you could use a 9.3 or a 375..!

Personally, I think the 35 Whelen in a short barrelled configuration with 250 gr bullets would be a tremendous general purpose rifle up here in Maine. I mean really a 22" barrel chucking 250s at 2400 is a deer/bear/moose thumper par excellence. you betcha.

I usually keep my 35 Whelen Imp. loaded with 225gr Acubonds, if I was going after bigger game I'd work up a load for some 250's. I wouldn't think twice about taking my 35 Whelen imp. to hunt anything in north america with the right ammo. Some day I might buy, trade for, or build a 9.3x62, but I'll never let go of my 35 Whelen Imp.

I agree the Whelen and 9.3 seem very very close in case size and bullet diameter. They should work the same.

I looked on Midway and I see a lot more 35 Whelen loads that I expected! For the Whelen I see 11 loads from 150 to 250gr. For the 9.3x62, I counted 15 loads listed from 220 to 286 grains. More of the heavier loads in 9.3 but still enough to go around for both.

Is any major builder still offering 35 Whelen rifles?

Remington has it in the 700 cdl, and the 750. I don't know if Ruger is still offering it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by mad_jack02:
I usually keep my 35 Whelen Imp. loaded with 225gr Acubonds, if I was going after bigger game I'd work up a load for some 250's. I wouldn't think twice about taking my 35 Whelen imp. to hunt anything in north america with the right ammo. Some day I might buy, trade for, or build a 9.3x62, but I'll never let go of my 35 Whelen Imp.

Former MASS-HOLE here! Now I'm in NewYorkistan. I use to call it Taxachusetts also....but now I miss those rates compared to here. My pooper still hurts!

Anyway, I feel the same in many ways. I wouldn't download my 35 Wheelen AI by using anything under 225gr. Just me. But I like 250gr a lot and will be trying the 280gr A-Frame.

But ya, I can see very little difference between the two rounds. I do tend to lean away from metric designations ... not sure why just do.

i recently saw a ruger at the KTP in Kittery with ss/syn in 35 whelen.

AS for taxes only NH stands out around here are reasonable - good even. NH has neither sales tax or income tax. Most every other state has both -big time. But, over time, Mass residents have been on a steady exodus north and things are sure to change. And I dont mean for the better in Mass or NH.

The property tax rates maybe a tad higher in NH, but in general the assessments are lower.

I see a lot of new faces at the Mass RT90 toll booths. The have the ticket machines shut off and human being handing the tickets to drivers at the on ramps. I kid you not! Obama dollars at work.

quote:

..... here in USA .....

4-bore,

I perceive it as a matter of perspective. The 9.3x62 has been going strong since it's conception in 1905 - around the globe; and IMO about time it's "wonderfullness" caught on in North America also.

The 35 Whelen is pretty much a North American cartridge. I've lived here in The Fatherland for many moons and never seen a box of 35 Whelen cartridges For Sale here; let alone a rifle thusly chambered.

Here there's all kinds of 9.3's - 57(R)'s, 62's, 66's, 64's & 74R's, it's a popular caliber that get's the job done without alot of fuss.

On the other hand; outside North America the 35's - .358 Winchester (although it has a small following here for Drive Hunts in Browning BLR's) 35 Whelen, .358 STA & .358 Norma Magnum are rarely encountered.

I'm not even going to go down the road of debating each's merits, they're both great cartridges and made into fine rifles, also.

IMO it's global appeal is coming home to roost in NA; don't want to shove anyone's 35's on the back burner. Everyone ought to enjoy more of a good thing, the 36's too.

Once upon a time in the little country of Blogistan there was a lot of folks that liked to hunt everything from varmints to giant cave bears.

The law in Blogistan only allowed persons to own rifles in one whole increment of a millimeter. So the only cartridges available was a 5mm, 6mm, a 7mm, a 8mm, a 9mm and a 10 mm for the largest of the cave bears.

It was sufficient for everyone and everyone got along fine.....until one day some mean little bloggistanner discovered how to make his own barrels and dies.

He had heard the banter and ribbing that went around the campfire every year around mammoth camp between the 8mm folks and the 9mm folks and he went to work making a 8.5mm stanner.

Well all billy hell broke out when the word got around that Mr. Chinwester was showing up in mammoth camp this year with his 8.5mm stanner. It obviously had the flat trajectory of an 8mm and the smashing power of the 9mm and everyone immediately wanted one.....(having never tried one)

Chinwester was selling barrels left and right and became famous and very wealthy. He hired people to work in his factory who then learned how to make barrels and went on their own because they too wanted to be wealthy and famous.....as a result there was soon an 8.25mm and a 8.75mm and even an 8.25mm CI....(chinwester improved).....
As time went on, the proliferation of cartridges was so complete that there was a cartridge in every increment of .1mm and variants of length as some stanners now wanted a short block and a long block cartridge. (bolt actions hadn't been invented yet)

Sure enough, as time evolved, there was now three hundred different cartridges to choose from.......and guess what.....things didn't change one IOTA.....they still went to mammoth camp and argued and bantered between their 8.015 Stanner and their 8.016 stanner! Some even suggested that it would be great if they could get a 8.0155 stanner....the best of both worlds.....

As it turned out....they argued and bantered and conjoled so long that they forgot to go hunting for mannoths and went the winter without meat.....and all the blogistans starved to death.

And now the moral of the story..... sooner or later we just grab a gun and go hunting and quit picking the fly shit out of the pepper!

this is one of your better posts, vapo. must be gettin cold out there in western nebraska

Its fun to own more guns than you really need, is it not? Besides the mm's you also have bolts, levers, semis and singles. More fun and more source of endless debate. Without which, there would be no AR.

Goota go see a dentist about a tooth. ....

Since the original topic was why one fails in popularity where the other one succeeds, not whether one is better than the other, I'll try to stick to that.

I agree with your above that lots of it is the offerings in the loads. I think also the first factory rifle in whelen was the rem700 and it had only a 22" barrel. when you're working with a low capacity case (in relation to a heavy bullet) I see no reason to short change yourself on the barrel length, you're going to be less than impressed with the results. So I think it never took off.

Now the 9.3 has a surge, well look, you can get the cz off the shelf with open sights, setup for rings, a damn fine rifle for the money, and possibly more appealing (how much marketing does Remington do of their models in 9.3 compared to CZ which I've seen quite a few full page spreads that have it listed as one of the choices IIRC) than remingtons.

And when it comes down to it, I think it just isn't in the same league. you're right, it's just a step up from the 30-06, and if you're a fan of heavy bullets (like me) which are the benefit of it over the 30, IMO, then what you gain in grains you lose in trajectory. The 9.3 is closer to the 375 than the 06 I think and by that virtue alone is probably viewed that way when the person is making the decision.

just my 2c

Red

My exact 2 cent-iments, Vapo...

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
this is one of your better posts, vapo. must be gettin cold out there in western nebraska

As a matter of fact....it was -10 F last night.....coldest I've ever seen since I moved here in 1999!

I just can't see any superiority between the two rounds. Neither round is ever going to approach the 243 in popularity, both are fine for anything in North America. A rounds popularity never affected me in the slightest, my favorite is the 7x57, my Whelen does everything I need done in Texas with 200 grain Hornady's at 2600 fps. My elk load is the 250 gr. Speer at 2500 fps, still waiting for it's chance.

I think the internet has spiked some awareness in the USA of the virtues of the 9.3x62. However, the 9.3x62 can still only be obtained by having a custom rifle built, by buying a relatively rare factory CZ, or finding a used rifle for sale. A Whelen rifle is very easy and cheap to obtain because the major American manufacturers have been producing them for decades.

I would bet that Whelen rifles outnumber 9.3x62 rifles in the USA by a factor of 20:1. Most American hunters probably don't even know anything about the 9.3x62. That doesn't mean the Whelen is better than the 9.3x62, but it does mean that the 9.3 is still an aficionado chambering in the US. To top it off, there are no animals in the US that need the extra power of the 9.3x62 over the Whelen. In other words, the Whelen is plenty powerful for anything that walks on this continent.

So my sense is that the internet has made some Americans more aware of the 9.3x62 and internet shopping has made components and loaded ammunition available, but I highly doubt the 9.3x62 will ever come close to popularity of the Whelen in the US. Even so, those that have a 9.3x62 have a very fine chambering indeed.

Both cartridges are well able to perform as they should, neither is highly popular because they are a bit of over kill. The recent surge of interest in the 9.3 is the normal tendency of many people to follow the current "NEW THING!" fad, it will settle back after a time and I suspect the .35 Whelen will retain a steady appeal ...which is not great.

Agree with other points posters have made.

Releasing the Tikka T3 has increased it's popularity
around the world.

I think the US market has become more OK with Metric cartridges as well,
Double Rifle;s becoming more popular helping with this (9.3 x 74R).

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
this is one of your better posts, vapo. must be gettin cold out there in western nebraska

As a matter of fact....it was -10 F last night.....coldest I've ever seen since I moved here in 1999!

only -10F? jeez man you gotta come to Maine; this time of year it can routinely hit -25 - -40F in some parts of the state. not too many other places in America where it does this. BTW, at -10F I'm indoors anyeay typing away over the distinct diffs between the .358 bore and the .366 bore...

Yes, both mighty fine cartridges, but if I had neither and was looking, I'd take the 9.3x62, with it's ability to shoot heavier bullets.

9.3 a fad? I wouldn't take that thought to the bank since it's been around since 1905. Whelen started life in 1922. Both are good calibers so to each his own North America generally frowns on the metric calibers, mainly because they are not as common there and you just don't see or hear about them. That does not make them 2d class calibers though

I know you can get them in Sauer, Blaser, Mauser, CZ, Sako, & Ruger has the 9.3x74R, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

why? because .366 is the actual legal minimum for some species in africa. for practical reasons, there's no real difference

bullet weight? seriously, you can get 310gr .358
http://www.woodleighbullets.co...raditional/338q-375q

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
sooner or later we just grab a gun and go hunting and quit picking the fly shit out of the pepper!

Damn fine post!!

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
You can and perhaps should dispute my premise:

Why is Whelen going no place and 9.3 on the rise? They seem about equal and the Whelen is years ahead of the 9.3 here in USA.

The 35 Whelen has been around for a long time as a wildcat and recently as a factory round, long enough to prove itself and gain a loyal following.

The 9.3x62 although around an even longer time and always as a factory load, it was never seen in the USA (not by me). Now it looks to be coming on gang busters.

I have a theory, FWIW and here is the clue: Hornady offers one load in each. The 35 is loaded with a 200 gr and the 9.3 is 285gr.

I dont see any significant advantage in using a 200gr 35 bullet over a 180 gr 30 caliber. Note, I say 'significant'. The good ol' 30-06 covers that ground well enough. But pushing ~300 grains with a small boost in power for a kicker, that seems real step up in class.

So; for what ever game, a hunter felt his trusty old 30-06 was marginal, with factory ammo, the 9.3 looks like a nice step up. Not an 9-10 lb elephant rifle either. Just one step up.

There's an impressive array bullets being built for the 35s. Load 'em up and shoot somethin'.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
I think the internet has spiked some awareness in the USA of the virtues of the 9.3x62. However, the 9.3x62 can still only be obtained by having a custom rifle built, by buying a relatively rare factory CZ, or finding a used rifle for sale. A Whelen rifle is very easy and cheap to obtain because the major American manufacturers have been producing them for decades.

I would bet that Whelen rifles outnumber 9.3x62 rifles in the USA by a factor of 20:1. Most American hunters probably don't even know anything about the 9.3x62. That doesn't mean the Whelen is better than the 9.3x62, but it does mean that the 9.3 is still an aficionado chambering in the US. To top it off, there are no animals in the US that need the extra power of the 9.3x62 over the Whelen. In other words, the Whelen is plenty powerful for anything that walks on this continent.

So my sense is that the internet has made some Americans more aware of the 9.3x62 and internet shopping has made components and loaded ammunition available, but I highly doubt the 9.3x62 will ever come close to popularity of the Whelen in the US. Even so, those that have a 9.3x62 have a very fine chambering indeed.

Just the opposite. The 9.3x62 comes in a variety of high quality factory rifles from the CZ, Steyr, Sauer 202, Merkel, Tikka, Sako, and others. There is very little available in .35 Whelen from factory guns.

I see 9.3x62's all the time here in my shop; but only one 35 Whelen over the past 8 years. The .35 Whelen is more popular in the western US, but not so in the rest of the US. I would bet that 9.3x62 rifles out number .35 Whelens by 5:1.

We have folks coming in all the time interested in the 9.3. Can't say I've ever had anyone come in and ask about the Whelen. The advent of the internet and intensive reading on Africa, India, and European hunting has peaked more interest in the 9.3, and now with more and more reloaders and components available, the 9.3 will continue to excel in popularity.

Arguing about the superior benefits of one over the other is mute; it's all about personal preference. Although, with both factory and hand loads, the 9.3 has some slight edge for bigger game; especially Africa and Alaska.

There is alot of nostalgia in the western US for the Whelen. There is also alot of nostalgia for the 9.3 when studying the history of hunting outside the US.

Mike

Seems like 35s have always been fairly low on the popularity list in the US as a whole. As a result, I don't see the 35 Whelen ever catching on too big anywhere. But the 9.3x62 is already popular most everywhere else and it was just a matter of time before it began to spread here in the States. Even good ole' American Ruger is getting into the act with their 2011 model 9.3x62 African. Cz is stepping it up with the American styled 9.3x62 Carbine-Kevlar. It appears that more models of European 9.3x62s may get imported, etc. More ammo and loading components are now available Stateside. Just about any 30-06 based bolt rifle can be converted to 9.3x62 with a rebore or rebarrel. There is nothing bad going against it, and everything good going for it.

I just think it was something that could not be avoided being the 35Whelen has such a small market base compared to the 9.3x62 when you look at the total scheme of things in the big picture of manufacturing. Nothing will stop anyone from using the 35Whelen for years to come, but the world-wide market success of the 9.3x62 will probably result in a much larger manufacturing investment going into the 9.3x62 over the 35Whelen for all the years to come.

Best

There was also a little global conflict when both cartridges were still in their infancy. The good ole' USA shunned anything apparantly (real or not) GERMAN and metric caliber rifles was one of them.

Modern reloading components make the differences less apparent but, for a long time 9.3 reloading components outside the USA were superior to the domestic (USA) .35 components.

quote:

Ruger is getting into the act with their 2011 model 9.3x62 African.

Really! That was my idea. Ok coincidence- but it does make sense. I bet that will be ok to carry with enough weight to enjoy practice and no broken stocks. Is this on-line or in print?

I see Hornady 35 Whelen msrp $35 box and 9.3x62 fetchs $65. They got to screw us even for 9.3!! Thats supposed to be a rich bitch ctg too!!

I have only ever seen about 3 9.3x62's ever and they were new CZ 550's. Which now sell for about 800 bucks. The ones I saw were 499. Not sure why the double in price.

I bet I have only seen 10 35 whelens. There is a ruger Hawkeye in town here now.

I wouldnt say either one is very popular except here at AR .

Ipose a small but significant point...the 9,3 is legal for dangerous game in enough African countries for folk to consider an acceptable DG round in case one day they go to Africa and if it is good enough for Africa, why not alaska...the .35 is legal nowhere except mozambique.

I have a couple of 9mm mausers (.356) and man that is a great plains game round...these days they mostly get lent to kids starting out. Load .357 pistol bullets and let them shoot impala...sure as hell puts them down with a touch of style and builds confidence at less recoil than most .308 loads

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
You can and perhaps should dispute my premise:

The 35 Whelen has been around for a long time as a wildcat and recently as a factory round, long enough to prove itself and gain a loyal following.

Your concept of 'recently' is a bit skewed. Unless you consider 22+ years ago recent.

Remington built this model 7600 rifle in 1988, chambered in 35 Whelen. The MagnaPorting and B&C stock were added at a later date.

quote:

Your concept of 'recently' is a bit skewed. Unless you consider 22+ years ago recent.

My age is showing again

In my neck of woods the 35 Whelen is a typical handloaders gun.
There are a few, but not many.
I you want one you have to build one, as the only one off the rack is the Remington pumpaction and they are as seldom as the hens theet.

9,3x62 on the other hand is a popular moose caliber, and ammo and guns can be found in almost every sporting goods shop.

I went for the Whelen because I wanted something "unusual", and Elmer Keith always spoke highly of the caliber.

My 35 Whelen has become my "go for" rifle, and is a M77 MKII with 22" Shilen bbl and the terrific paddle stock.
As though as it can get

Loaded with 250 grn Woodleigh RN it is a superb big game rifle/caliber.

Actually, I think NEF (now Remingtons)has the 35 whelen cataloged and IIRC, Ruger still chambers the Whelen in its #1

Gotta get my Stainless #1 Whelen out and play with it once it warms up a bit!!

Owned both (still have the Whelen) and in the market for another 9,3 as we speak.
Whelen is a great round but the 9,3 makes is a better choice for the bigger critters (moose and brownies) because of the 286 grain bullets.

Granted, not much of a difference, 250 vs 286, and .358 vs .366. But none the less the differences are there.

I could be accused of being a 9,3x62 supporter. A CZ 550 American came into my possession because a friend waxed poetic about the chambering's capabilities ... and I could not pass up a $400 rifle including dies, cases, and bullets.

As it happened, the rifle I had planned to take to Africa later that year had a problem and the 9,3x62 ended up going with me. It proved itself!

Have used it in the US and even built another one which has also been to Africa and performed very well too.

All that being said, I have never put down the 35 Whelen. If I didn't have a 9,3x62 already, I'd be looking at a 35 Whelen.

What's right for you in the light medium range? I think that's up to you. Both seem to be great chamberings. Might be that intent to go to Africa would be a plus for selection of 9,3x62.

Interesting conversation. That leads me to ask then how do any of you feel the 9.3x57 fits into the scheme.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Interesting conversation. That leads me to ask then how do any of you feel the 9.3x57 fits into the scheme.

Mainly for those who own older rifles and collectors pieces I would guess.

.