I also, am more concerned with a proper bullet for the job intended then just foot pounds.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I also, am more concerned with a proper bullet for the job intended then just foot pounds.

+1...........

Good bullet + placement....be it a .277, .284, or anything bigger

Shoot them through the lungs and they die!!! It's how it's done.

Remember.....gutshot with a .338 Rem Ultra is still gutshot!!!

Well it looks like the guy who insulted my parents and then put me on ignore is still full of it. Why am I not surprised.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Well it looks like the guy who insulted my parents and then put me on ignore is still full of it. Why am I not surprised.

Chuck, that wasn't me. Who are you talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Well it looks like the guy who insulted my parents and then put me on ignore is still full of it. Why am I not surprised.

Chuck, every forum has a few cowardly little scumsuckers who make false and nasty comments about men whom they could never emulate from behind the anonymous safety of their keyboards. This, is just an aspect of these forums that one has to live with and lying cowards who insult one's parents and post lies about one are gutless vermin, not worth your concern or that of any worthwhile real man.

Would he have the sack to say it to your face....not bloody likely, eh!

This has been an interesting read for sure,and funny at points.I have never chased elk so i can't say but one comment confuses me...

[QUOTE] [/We made the trip across to the ridge and I found my deer. The two shots were about 2" apart behind the shoulder. It killed him, but not "Just Fine" in my estimation. The lack of energy, momentum and everything else you want to throw out there was "inadequate" for a quick kill. QUOTE]

Now I don't know what happened there but there have been hundreds of deer taken in my neck of the woods with the "just fine" 243.One youngster,age 14, has taken a 4,5,8,and a 11point with a drop tine as well as several does and all have been drt,never took a step.Ranges varied with longest being 283 yards.I don't think a 243 is a barely get by caliber where the avg white-tail is concerned.

If fpe is what is needed,I guess if Africa is in my future,I need to purchase a howitzer,or maybe a rpg.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:


What is "just fine" is what this discussion is all about. A 6mm bullet through the vitals kills them too, but I don't consider it "just fine"
I went on a mule deer hunt in Southern NM. I was doing a ton of coyote calling (still do) that year and shooting them with my .243 WSSM. I decided to hunt that year with the .243 WSSM and the 95 grain Nosler BT. Shot 1/2" groups in my rifle.

I spotted 3 smaller bucks across a ridge from my hunting buddy and I. Found an old stump to take a rest off of and lazered the first buck at 250 yards. A real easy broadside shot. I settled the crosshair behind the shoulder and fired. The big fork horn hunched up and just stood there. I cycled the bolt and shot him again. He motored off down into the trees. Off of the same stump my buddy shot another with his '06 and the 180 grain Accubond. He hit his as low as possible right through the heart. The buck staggered and fell.

We made the trip across to the ridge and I found my deer. The two shots were about 2" apart behind the shoulder. It killed him, but not "Just Fine" in my estimation. The lack of energy, momentum and everything else you want to throw out there was "inadequate" for a quick kill.. It was and will be the last time I use a borderline caliber for deer much less a much larger animal like an elk when there are others in my safe that are better choices.

I shot this cull Buck with my 338 Laupa and it ran I guess it is not a good killer, right?




One can easily see the entrance hole, but according to Vapodog he ran because I am a bad shot
rcumuglia and Vapodog are two hillarious dudes

This needs to be posted again, because rcumuglia draws an erronious conclusion with his one expereince with the 243 WSSM mag on one Deer.

I know that I had enough bullet wieght, diamenter, momentum and FPE (what ever good FPE is) At the distance that the bullet impacted the Deer the 338 Laupa had plus or minus 3982 FPE and yet the Deer RAN AT THE SHOT

The belief that FPE is useful in ranking cartridge lethality is BS at best

quote:

[QUOTE] [/We made the trip across to the ridge and I found my deer. The two shots were about 2" apart behind the shoulder. It killed him, but not "Just Fine" in my estimation. The lack of energy, momentum and everything else you want to throw out there was "inadequate" for a quick kill. QUOTE]

Now I don't know what happened there but there have been hundreds of deer taken in my neck of the woods with the "just fine" 243.One youngster,age 14, has taken a 4,5,8,and a 11point with a drop tine as well as several does and all have been drt,never took a step.Ranges varied with longest being 283 yards.I don't think a 243 is a barely get by caliber where the avg white-tail is concerned.

Mule deer aren't Whitetails. Again, "Just Fine" is what we are discussing. The hits were perfect and the deer died fairly quick. That constitutes "just fine" for most of you no matter if the deer walks off or runs or how much time it takes him to die. My conceren is the quickest kill, not an "ouchie" on my shoulder like you all.

quote:

Well it looks like the guy who insulted my parents and then put me on ignore is still full of it. Why am I not surprised.

He was insulting you, not your folks.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Good bullet + placement....be it a .277, .284, or anything bigger...

This is interesting and the first sign that you guys have some kind of criteria for matching the caliber to the game.

No one yet has answered Vapodog's question about what that criteria is. There has to be some to make a choice.

I've also tried to discuss what that criteria may be but no one can answer the question. From what has been posted by ya'll, all that is necessary is a caliber that will result in a complete pass through. Well, every cartridge has energy, momentum, velocity that differ at every range. If none of those attributes matter, you would all have 1 rifle. That rifle would have to be capable of firing a bullet that will pass through the vitals of whatever animal you are shooting at. Tiny calibers can accomplish this.

Why wouldn't you just shoot everything with an air rifle for the sake of arguement (discussion )?

Because it doesn't have enough velocity, momentum, energy to pass through. So there is a cut off. That cut off, whether you want to admit it or not, are these factors of physics . Everyone knows this even jwpp.

The OGW Formula and the TI are pretty good at determining the cut off. They take physics into account to make the suggestion. They may not be perfect, but they are far from "BS".

The 7mm-08 obviously has a cut off as to range and animal size except for the boneheads who would hunt "ele" with it. Maybe the cut off for hunting "ele" would be limited to range. Maybe the 7mm-08 wouldn't be a good 500 yard "ele" gun for Trax, but just fine at 50 yards. But still he has a cut off determined by range and the energy, momentum etc at that range. Correct?

So I guess you still choose your caliber for the game with the same standards normal people do but have a much lower threshold for the floor of the factors of physics of the round.

What is your floor?

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with and the maximum effective range you would use that caliber? Also, please list the factors that helped you make the choice. If there are multiple calibers you would shoot each of these with, please tell us the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. range of the animal, bullet selection

1. Prarie Dog

2. Coyote

3. Piggy

4. Whitetail, Antelope

5. Mule Deer

6. Elk, Oryx, African Plains game

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)

rc, Mule deer aren't any more bullet proof than a white tail

If you had put the 243 WSSM bullet 2/3 up from the bottom and in the shoulder the Deer would have dopped at the shot. High Shoulder shots always do that. Whne you get enough experience you figure tha out if you don't want a deer to mave out of its tracks. It is quality bullet placed properly, Don't take a "Brainiack to figure that out

In my experience there is an inverse correlation between hunting experience and infatuation with ballistic statistics. The less experienced hunters tend to recite FPE numbers and ballistics data while the more experienced hunters just go poke holes in critters and collect their trophies.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that animals just aren't that hard to kill. How many hundreds of thousands of elk have been killed with 30-30's, 25-35's, 257 Roberts, 243's, etc over the years? Most of them were even killed with what today would be considered crappy bullets. The largest elk trophy I've ever seen was killed with a 25-35 Winchester. Hell, Native Americans were killing elk and buffalo for centuries using nothing more than a sharp stick.

These mental gymnastics make me smile. Just punch a hole where it counts in the SOB then go pick him up.

These days the availability of excellent bullets has largely made most chambering arguments nothing more than a circle jerk. Good bullets penetrate and critters end up on the ground.

Unless we are talking long range shooting, chambering/caliber means squat when it comes to elk and deer. At normal ranges pretty much anything legal and readily available with good big game bullets will get the job done in grand fashion.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Well it looks like the guy who insulted my parents and then put me on ignore is still full of it. Why am I not surprised.

I saw that post. Did you ever consider that you earned it?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
rc, Mule deer aren't any more bullet proof than a white tail

If you had put the 243 WSSM bullet 2/3 up from the bottom and in the shoulder the Deer would have dopped at the shot. High Shoulder shots always do that. Whne you get enough experience you figure tha out if you don't want a deer to mave out of its tracks. It is quality bullet placed properly, Don't take a "Brainiack to figure that out

Easy to tell you've never been accused of that!

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Unless we are talking long range shooting, chambering/caliber means squat when it comes to elk and deer. At normal ranges pretty much anything legal and readily available with good big game bullets will get the job done in grand fashion.

So long range limits caliber choice for you? Why?

Also you say you need a "good big game bullet". This is a limiting factor as well for you. Why?

Why use a crappy bullet when good ones are available? My limit is that I don't use junk ever, and bullets are no exception.

Long range shooting is a different animal and BC becomes a real issue because wind is the greatest challenge. People with experience shooting long range know that BC is king, initial velocity is a tertiary concern, and some calibers have a distinct advantage when it comes to BC.

For example, I'd not pick a 25 caliber rifle for a dedicated long range rig because it is handicapped out of the gate in respect to projectiles when compared to 6mms, 6.5mms, 7mms and 338s. Of course most people with long range shooting experience know this and don't need the lesson.

A bullet fired from a 30-30 will go a long ways, and believe it or not will do a hell of a lot of damage long past what most people consider it's appropriate range. However, that isn't the issue, and if you had much long range shooting experience you'd know that the challenge is in making the hit, and for that a low BC bullet like one fired from a 30-30 is a real handicap.

quote:

A bullet fired from a 30-30 will go a long ways, and believe it or not will do a hell of a lot of damage long past what most people consider it's appropriate range. However, that isn't the issue, and if you had much long range shooting experience you'd know that the challenge is in making the hit, and for that a low BC bullet like one fired from a 30-30 is a real handicap.

You know nothing of my shooting experience and you shouldn't make assumptions.

So the only factor for you in long range hunting is the ability to make an accurate hit? That can easily be accomplished with a .223 shooting a high BC bullet.

You sure you don't want to add something to that?

I can't think of a single high quality hunting bullet in 223 cal that has a BC high enough to justify it's use in long range hunting.

Lots of target bullets that fit the bill, but apparently you missed the part where I said that I don't use junk bullets on game. Nice try though.

I've said this before, but here goes again.
I think you need to throw "how you hunt" into the mix too. I'm willing to come home empty handed if the shot I want isnt presented, or I can obtain. That means range and or position of the animal. if you cant pass up an animal even if takes a texas heart shot then youd better have a bigger rifle then if you are a heart shot specialist. It's been awhile, but I spent some time in australia. My favorite thing was climbing the hills and mountains after feral goats, they were tough and cagey critters, especially old billies that had been chased before.I dont keep track of numbers, but would guess I shot 60-80 goats in the stretch I was living there. I borrowed rifles from a gun-nut friend I lived with. I used .223, 243, 240 wthby,6.5x55, 7 mag, and a .308. Ranges were from 50 yds to 300 yds or a little more. When all was said and done, it didnt make any differance what I shot them with. A shoulder shot put them down on the spot, sometimes still had a gasp or two when I got there though. Most heart shots made a death run of 30-100 yds, the same for a high double lung shot. The only thing I had trouble with was the .308 loaded with 150 barnes x bullets, they always ran a long way with a good lung hit. I have bad luck with x bullets and gave up on them years ago, just me, but they are bad ju-ju for me.

All I'm asking is what are the specific criteria for the choice, which seems to be beyond the capacity for everyone.

So what is your minimum BC and in what caliber?

The "match caliber to game" question is beyond you all here too, it seems.

I'm just trying to figure you all out.

If no one can answer, we'll all have you figured out.

quote:

I think you need to throw "how you hunt" into the mix too. I'm willing to come home empty handed if the shot I want isnt presented, or I can obtain. That means range and or position of the animal

Agreed.

Just about everything in NA could be hunted with a .22 LR and stalking within 10 yards for a brain shot.

But even for this the criteria of bullet construction, velocity, momentum, energy etc.. would have to be met to penetrate the skull, therefore, they are factors in caliber choice

So none of you think of these things before you reach for a rifle for a hunt?

New thread time...

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Well it looks like the guy who insulted my parents and then put me on ignore is still full of it. Why am I not surprised.

I saw that post. Did you ever consider that you earned it?

The guy had a temper tantrum akin to something my three year old would throw. My parents have nothing to do with this thread. Having a strong opinion has nothing to do with moral character, his reaction had everything to do with it.

RC, I'm not totally sure just what you mean by your question of criteria.
If I was hunting whitetails in a cedar swamp I wouldnt choose a 243 with a 70 grn varmint bullet, even though the energy is sufficiant for a 30 yd jump shot in the brush. On the same note, I have helped track to many deer shot with a 30-06 and 180 or 220grn bullets that didnt open enough on a broadside shot to feel thats the correct bullet even with plenty of energy. There are so many variables to the choice of what you hunt with to how you hunt with it to give just a caliber, bullet and distance, oh, and energy, and have it stand up as a litmus test to gauge by.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
rc, Mule deer aren't any more bullet proof than a white tail

If you had put the 243 WSSM bullet 2/3 up from the bottom and in the shoulder the Deer would have dopped at the shot. High Shoulder shots always do that. Whne you get enough experience you figure tha out if you don't want a deer to mave out of its tracks. It is quality bullet placed properly, Don't take a "Brainiack to figure that out

Easy to tell you've never been accused of that!

You make an idiot look smart

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

A bullet fired from a 30-30 will go a long ways, and believe it or not will do a hell of a lot of damage long past what most people consider it's appropriate range. However, that isn't the issue, and if you had much long range shooting experience you'd know that the challenge is in making the hit, and for that a low BC bullet like one fired from a 30-30 is a real handicap.

You know nothing of my shooting experience and you shouldn't make assumptions.
So the only factor for you in long range hunting is the ability to make an accurate hit? That can easily be accomplished with a .223 shooting a high BC bullet.

You sure you don't want to add something to that?

We all know that you shoot for Browning, but that don't make you any where near as clever as you think that you are.

In fact you make the taking of an animal far more difficult than it truely is

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm not totally sure just what you mean by your question of criteria.

Here's my post that started the "free for all"

quote:

Does anyone have a definitive test on this foot pounds bull chit.

I don't need a test.....I have a right to pick MY ELK RIFLE on any criteria I wish.....

***********************************************

It was my assertion that I pick my rifle based on certain criteria and that I limit my shots to that criteria. I don't shoot beyond the limits of my rifle and for elk I limit my range to the point that my rifle no longer has 1500 ft-lb of energy. I further limit myself to the ranges I know I can have a high probability of hitting a lethal area and for me that's 400 yards. I passed on three elk last week because they were 500 yards and even though my .35 Whelen has the energy I set as minimum I still didn't shoot.

From my statement that I set criteria for myself this stupid "free for all" thread has turned into .....you call it....

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
The "match caliber to game" question is beyond you all here too, it seems.

I'm just trying to figure you all out.

If no one can answer, we'll all have you figured out.

Why don't you enlighten us oh great bwana

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm not totally sure just what you mean by your question of criteria.

Here's my post that started the "free for all"

quote:

Does anyone have a definitive test on this foot pounds bull chit.

I don't need a test.....I have a right to pick MY ELK RIFLE on any criteria I wish.....I don't need a test.....I have a right to pick MY ELK RIFLE on any criteria I wish.....

***********************************************

It was my assertion that I pick my rifle based on certain criteria and that I limit my shots to that criteria. I don't shoot beyond the limits of my rifle and for elk I limit my range to the point that my rifle no longer has 1500 ft-lb of energy. I further limit myself to the ranges I know I can have a high probability of hitting a lethal area and for me that's 400 yards. I passed on three elk last week because they were 500 yards and even though my .35 Whelen has the energy I set as minimum I still didn't shoot.

From my statement that I set criteria for myself this stupid "free for all" thread has turned into .....you call it....

So does every one else. Of course rcumuglia doesn't seem to think so.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm not totally sure just what you mean by your question of criteria.

Here's my post that started the "free for all"

quote:

Does anyone have a definitive test on this foot pounds bull chit.

I don't need a test.....I have a right to pick MY ELK RIFLE on any criteria I wish.....

***********************************************

It was my assertion that I pick my rifle based on certain criteria and that I limit my shots to that criteria. I don't shoot beyond the limits of my rifle and for elk I limit my range to the point that my rifle no longer has 1500 ft-lb of energy. I further limit myself to the ranges I know I can have a high probability of hitting a lethal area and for me that's 400 yards. I passed on three elk last week because they were 500 yards and even though my .35 Whelen has the energy I set as minimum I still didn't shoot.

From my statement that I set criteria for myself this stupid "free for all" thread has turned into .....you call it....

Once again. That's nice for you, but your criteria is flawed.

quote:

Ignored post by jwp475 posted 23 November 2010 23:37

quote:

Ignored post by jwp475 posted 23 November 2010 23:42

quote:

Ignored post by Chuck Nelson posted 23 November 2010 23:46

since you guys have proven incapable of carrying on an intelligent conversation!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Ignored post by jwp475 posted 23 November 2010 23:37

quote:

Ignored post by jwp475 posted 23 November 2010 23:42

quote:

Ignored post by Chuck Nelson posted 23 November 2010 23:46

since you guys have proven incapable of carrying on an intelligent conversation!

Now that is funny, I don't care who you are, that right there

Apparently the truth stings a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Ignored post by jwp475 posted 23 November 2010 23:37

quote:

Ignored post by jwp475 posted 23 November 2010 23:42

quote:

Ignored post by Chuck Nelson posted 23 November 2010 23:46

since you guys have proven incapable of carrying on an intelligent conversation!

I think you meant to say "Since you guys refuse to drink my Kool-Aid."

quote:

***********************************************

It was my assertion that I pick my rifle based on certain criteria and that I limit my shots to that criteria. I don't shoot beyond the limits of my rifle and for elk I limit my range to the point that my rifle no longer has 1500 ft-lb of energy. I further limit myself to the ranges I know I can have a high probability of hitting a lethal area and for me that's 400 yards. I passed on three elk last week because they were 500 yards and even though my .35 Whelen has the energy I set as minimum I still didn't shoot.

I'll bite on this. I also would impose a 400 yd limit on myself, even if I had a 50 cal barret. I am always afraid the animal might take a step or move as I shoot, and the longer the range the more time it has to take itself out of the kill zone of my shot. Caliber? I've put .270, 130 grn noslers broadside through moose and big black bear, so I know it would do the same for an elk. My minimum, my 6.5 Gibbs and a 125 partition. If black timber hunting only, my handy 350 rem mag classic, it's always been lucky. The most spectacular elk kill I've seen was with a 25-06 and a 117grn Horn. Lasered 415 yds at a trot. The rancher put one shot through the shoulder and it dropped on it's nose ( a nice 6x5 by the way) the bullet was under the skin on the opposite side. Would I have taken the shot.... No.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Wassbeeman

quote:

It gets so tedious hearing about Bell killing elephants and Swedes killing moose with cartridges that are marginal at best. Swedes have to take a test before they can get a hunting license and (I think) there is a penalty for game lost. The few Swedes that I have read anything from, think the distances that Americans propose to kill animals at is ridiculous. And Bell made an extensive study of elephant anatomy in order to make a brain shot from just about any angle.
The sad truth is that a great many American hunters can't even tell you where a deer's heart is. They just shoot for the big middle and hope that magic bullet makes up for lack of lore and lack of practice.

Sir,
I have never found it tedious to read the factual exploits of what man can be should he demand the best from his talents, study and practice. I find it inspiring. I have read Bell's books over and over because of that fact and the experiences he shares.
I do find it terribly sad to read of the folks who shoot for the big middle and think a bigger gun makes it ok. It is partly why I tiptoe into these exchanges where we know there is a high chance of being suffered as a fool. However; when I do it is because maybe the efforts will result in somebody thinking again and becoming a knowledgeable shooter of game and a better marksman at the same time. Maybe not. We each get to choose our outcomes. It's a free Country; unless your flying commercial that is…
best regards,
dmw

My fault doesn't lie with Bell and his ilk; my problem lies with the wannabes that use his exploits as license.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Wassbeeman

quote:

It gets so tedious hearing about Bell killing elephants and Swedes killing moose with cartridges that are marginal at best. Swedes have to take a test before they can get a hunting license and (I think) there is a penalty for game lost. The few Swedes that I have read anything from, think the distances that Americans propose to kill animals at is ridiculous. And Bell made an extensive study of elephant anatomy in order to make a brain shot from just about any angle.
The sad truth is that a great many American hunters can't even tell you where a deer's heart is. They just shoot for the big middle and hope that magic bullet makes up for lack of lore and lack of practice.

Sir,
I have never found it tedious to read the factual exploits of what man can be should he demand the best from his talents, study and practice. I find it inspiring. I have read Bell's books over and over because of that fact and the experiences he shares.
I do find it terribly sad to read of the folks who shoot for the big middle and think a bigger gun makes it ok. It is partly why I tiptoe into these exchanges where we know there is a high chance of being suffered as a fool. However; when I do it is because maybe the efforts will result in somebody thinking again and becoming a knowledgeable shooter of game and a better marksman at the same time. Maybe not. We each get to choose our outcomes. It's a free Country; unless your flying commercial that is…
best regards,
dmw

My fault doesn't lie with Bell and his ilk; my problem lies with the wannabes that use his exploits as license.

What makes a wannabe such?

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

Funny, I used to correspond with the late George Hoffman who used to post here many years ago. He was the creator of the 416 Hoffman which Remington eventually adapted and turned into the 416 Rem. He was an African Professional hunter of vast experience.

We mostly corresponded about elk hunting as that's my passion. He told me he had taken just at 50 elk, all with the 270 Winchester... he and I both agree elk aren't particularly hard to kill given proper bullet placement.

I'm not aware John Taylor ever killed an elk...

Funny that all those quoting African PH's had nothing to say to this...

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Killing isn't hard. Put a good bullet in the right place and death is the outcome.

All I require is a bullet penetrate to the other side from reasonable angles. That's my criteria and caliber/cartridge has little to do with it.

The "best" elk rifle is whatever the best elk hunter has in his hands and that's a fact... ft lbs and all the other assorted minutia aside...

Killed a second elk of this season yesterday am... 308 Win. One shot at 225 yards and down!

Nice! Congrats Brad.