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One of Us |
I'm forced to question the wisdom of posting once the insults start flying. However, the subject is of considerable interest to me, so like the moth to the flame.....  First,
a good question which deserves a reply. I'm afraid I can't say I 'know' definitively what the minimum is. In fact performance will drop off with lower velocities. It is more a 'probabilty of failure' issue. It is not as if 100% expand above a specific threshold and 0% below. My understanding is that generally bullets intended for use in centrefire rifles are constructed for optimal performance in a range of 2,000 fps to 3,000 fps. That doesn't mean it doesn't / won't work above or below, but you will start to see an increasing failure rate the further outside the 'core' range. Further, higher velocities will tend to involve loss of mass rather than failure to open. So, with a TSX you will tend to see the petals shed at very high velocities. Also, muzzle velocity only matters if the elk is at your muzzle! So you'll need to take a load and run a ballistic calc on it to see what range it retains adequate velocity. I did that earlier for the 140 grain, and at 400 yards it still has over 1900 fps, so you should be OK. Out at 600 yards it retains less than 1600 fps, so performance will be more problematic. As long as you know the limitations of the bullet, and your own limitations, you should be fine. As others have mentioned there are perhaps other bullet choices available that might perform better at longer ranges.
Obviously you intended to be sacrastic. Yet your point two has in fact been supported by many 'experts', including Jack O'Connor! No offense (btw, nice Jackopole! )
The relative importance of momentum vs. energy has been long debated. It became something of an offshoot (pardon the pun) of the parallel high velocity vs. big bore debate. The fact is that both are based on bullet mass and velocity, two quantities that hopefully everyone can agree 'matter'. The key difference between them is that velocity is squared in the formula for energy, so it is relatively more important than mass than it is with momentum. FWIW, I read an interesting article (rather dated) which used some fairly substantial math to demonstrate that penetration is more closely 'predicted' or related to momentum. That would appear to be consistent with much real world experience. Of course it was based on the assumption of 'all else being equal', meaning bullet performance (mass retention etc.). On the other hand, energy perhaps more accurately 'predicts' the wound channel / tissue damage inflicted. Now, what I think is a generally reasonable 'theoretical' view of it, is that you need to deliver sufficient energy to the right location. That requires impacting the right location to begin with! Sufficient momentum is required to penetrate to the 'vitals' as well as bullet performance (opening / mass retention). So any 'theory' is going to have to consider location, momentum, energy and bullet performance in order to correspond to the 'real world'. All just MHO. | |||
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Here's something you all may find helpful and interesting. It's a chart called "The Best Bullet" showing all the different manufactured bullets and their mushroom at different impact velocities. It's quite detailed. You'll have to save it to your computer and view it in an enlarged state to really see what is going on.  | |||
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Thanks for your interesting example. Do you recall the range at which you shot? Any valid theory would have to 'explain' the success of your shot. Since it appears that you used iron sights, I assume your shot was something under 200 yards (no offense intended, if it was longer, but that seems to me a rather long range for a handgun with open sights). Even at that range the bullet would have retained signficant velocity. With that mass it would have had plenty of momentum to penetrate to the vitals (and right on through apparently!) and sufficient energy to do plenty of tissue damage. With the frontal area based on .51 diameter, it would not need to 'open' - it started with over 3 times the frontal area of a 7mm bullet! Considering the 22-250 for a moment, while it would have plenty of 'energy', it would be much less in momentum (the velocity would 'only' be 3-4 times greater, but the bullet would be perhaps a tenth). The other issue would of course be that the frontal area of the 22 would be a small fraction of the 500 and at the high velocity necessary to have comparable energy bullet performance would be problematic (the risk here being loss of mass, with the result being even less penetration). All in all there is good reason to prefer the 500, even from a 'theoretical' perspective! | |||
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And yet in a couple posts down you say the wife and kids should use something bigger. That just doesnt make sense, it will do the job, but use a differant gun.  | |||
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Here is a link to the same chart that is a bit easier to read. It is a bit dated, as in cases the 'previous gen' of bullets is shown (Barnes X for example). However, it does demonstrate that most bullets are performing best in the 'middle' of the velocity range, and many are losing alot of mass at the high end and are failing to open at the lower end. http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg | |||
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It makes perfect sense if a quicker clean kill is what you care about. | |||
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A 7mm bullet throuh the heart or lungs will kill just fine _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...eavier_c#Post4620440
_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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What is "just fine" is what this discussion is all about. A 6mm bullet through the vitals kills them too, but I don't consider it "just fine" I went on a mule deer hunt in Southern NM. I was doing a ton of coyote calling (still do) that year and shooting them with my .243 WSSM. I decided to hunt that year with the .243 WSSM and the 95 grain Nosler BT. Shot 1/2" groups in my rifle. I spotted 3 smaller bucks across a ridge from my hunting buddy and I. Found an old stump to take a rest off of and lazered the first buck at 250 yards. A real easy broadside shot. I settled the crosshair behind the shoulder and fired. The big fork horn hunched up and just stood there. I cycled the bolt and shot him again. He motored off down into the trees. Off of the same stump my buddy shot another with his '06 and the 180 grain Accubond. He hit his as low as possible right through the heart. The buck staggered and fell. We made the trip across to the ridge and I found my deer. The two shots were about 2" apart behind the shoulder. It killed him, but not "Just Fine" in my estimation. The lack of energy, momentum and everything else you want to throw out there was "inadequate" for a quick kill. It was and will be the last time I use a borderline caliber for deer much less a much larger animal like an elk when there are others in my safe that are better choices.  Same goes here. A 140 Grain bullet for elk will kill it with a perfect vital hit, but a heavier bullet at a higher velocity out of a larger caliber will kill more quickly given the same bullet placement. That's to say nothing about losing the animal with a marginal hit which has more probability of happening with the shooters in question; inexperienced wives and children. | |||
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I shot this pig from the prone postion at 350 yards with my 300 mag and the pig went down. I up and started gathering my gear to head to the kill. Just as I looked up I saw the pig regain his feet and take off. I went to the spot that I shot him and then started to track him in the heavy brush. When I fouund him he was still alive with massive damage. This was about an 80 pound pig, now does that mean that my 300 mag with 180 grain bullets is not a fine killer?  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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It means you're a darn poor shooter! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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[QUOTE] A 140 Grain bullet for elk will kill it with a perfect vital hit, but a heavier bullet at a higher velocity out of a larger caliber will kill more quickly given the same bullet placement. How much quicker? What percentage of elk die quicker cause of a larger bore? Bell averaged 1.5 shots for each of his 1100 ele taken by 7x57. He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle. Bell was professional poacher not recreational hunter.It was his business and also his hide at stake, especially considering that the amount of money to be made was considerable. To put his efforts into perspective, he wrote of one day when he tracked and shot nine elephants. He estimated that he had earned 877 pounds sterling from the ivory harvested from those nine kills. After one expedition he returned with ivory worth over 23,000 pounds sterling. That was a vast sum of money and converted to today’s currency equivalent it would make your eyes water. One does not risk that kind of money and effort on a questionable caliber. That's to say nothing about losing the animal with a marginal hit which has more probability of happening with the shooters in question; inexperienced wives and children. [QUOTE] I would not fear a woman or youngster with 7mm/08 being any more marginal than those macho males who feel they need ultramags which cause them to flinch-misplace shots. Id prefer adequate momentum & bullet performance with reasonable placement, over superfluous amounts with lousy placement. | |||
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And the circus never ends... So you believe a 7X57 is the right caliber to shoot elephants with? Hilarious! Like I say, I'd love to see video of you clowns hunting dangerous game in Africa with the calibers you think are fitting.
I guess you taliking about jwpp and his piggy? | |||
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Thank you for the good info and the chart is great to have. If my son or wife could handle something bigger than a 7-08 then I would gladly go that way but I want to go easy on them. My son is 11 and my wife has never shot a center fire rifle before. My dad started me on a 30-06 that kicked my ass at 11 years old. Don't want to make the same mistake. I have no intentions of stretching the gun further than it's intended out of respect for the animal. And if that means neither can shoot and maybe try hunting the year after then they are fine with that. Thanks again for the info. | |||
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For W.D.M.Bell apparently it was. before his 1100 count of ele with 7x57, he dropped 300 ele with 6.5x54ms and only changed to 7mm because it was more reliable ammo, not because he felt 6.5mm was inadequate. Shows the importance of shot placement, cause the cartridges proved very much adequate. Bells results clearly speak for themselves, do you have reason to doubt or dispute them? | |||
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I would dare bet that as many animals are lost from men,women or kids with to big a rifle and flinching then lost to "marginal" 7/08 on elk, 243 on deer rifles. | |||
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Don't ya just love all these 4th standard deviation incidents and calling it normal?....usual.....like it's what happens every day? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Would you hunt "ele" with the 7x57? | |||
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If I had the nerve and skill to correctly place the shot,yes I would. with Bells high number of efficient kills (1400 ele with 6.5ms & 7x57) I certainly dont need any more convincing that the cartridges are adequate. Do you doubt or dispute the value of Bells results? I also would not hunt with .458 lott if the recoil prevented me from accurately placing shots with high level of consistency. | |||
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And again, we were talking about the effectiveness of 7x57-7/08 on elk size game and elephant is thrown in the mix........... | |||
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I think that is the core problem. A lot of us like to think we are “Karamojo” but we are not. Knowing your limitations is key to an ethical hunt. By the way, I do think the 7mm-08 would be fine on elk with good bullets out to 300 yards. I sure as hell wouldn't use it on an elephant. | |||
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This is the best statement in this entire thread. It seems however that some don't know any limitations. It's whatever they want at the time.  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Maybe some haven't heard my little old lady story: I knew a LOL that lived in the Mississippi river bottems in TN. She looked a great deal like Aunt Bea. Each fall she would put her blase orange troopers cap on and go down to the apple orchard where she had a old kitchen chair. She would sit quietly and soon she would shoot a spike or 2x2. Then she'd go back to the house and get her riding lawn mower and use it to drag the deer home where she would "put it up". She never shot more than once per deer and her weapon of choice was a Stevens single shot .22 with iron sights. Obviously this means that the .22LR is an excellent choice for a deer cartridge. Right? It gets so tedious hearing about Bell killing elephants and Swedes killing moose with cartridges that are marginal at best. Swedes have to take a test before they can get a hunting liscense and (I think) there is a penalty for game lost. The few Swedes that I have read anything from, think the distances that Americans prepose to kill animals at is ridiculous. And Bell made an extensive study of elephant anatomy inorder to make a brain shot from just about any angle. The sad truth is that a great many American hunters can't even tell you where a deer's heart is. They just shoot for the big middle and hope that magic bullet makes up for lack of lore and lack of practice.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I think we need to get something straight here. All this flinching with magnum stuff is bull. If you can't shoot a certain gun then that's it. I'd never recommend a gun to someone that was above their recoil tolerance. This is a given, you practice with the guns you hunt with and master them if not you shoot something smaller. Is anyone really saying a 140 7mm bullet kills Elk as good as a 350 TSX 416 with identical hits? | |||
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If one had to pay a trophy fee of $1,000 every time he shot an elk and it got away (as is the case in Africa)....you draw blood.....you pay the fee..... I'd wager that several folks would soon discover the limitations of their rifles.....and heed them. As it is it's clear they blaze away because if they wound one they just go shoot another one. Real sportsmen! I was criticized earlier for only having shot one elk in my life.....but I have hunted Africa where you put your money where your mouth is.... No one goes to Africa undergunned or not knowing their limitations! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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A cartridge that is marginal in some peoples hands, has extensively proved itself quite adequate in the hands of another more knowledgable more skilled person.
In stark contrast to Bells efficient killing record of DG with small calibre, T.Roosevelt used larger calibres and regularly lost wounded game. Obviously he was either unaware of his limitations, or didnt care about the effects of ignoring his limitations. During the 1909 expedition to East africa,Congo,Egypt, Teddy and son Kermit shot over 500 animals. | |||
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You ask about use on Pronghorn and this is my experience. I worked up this load several years ago for a Wy. Antelope/Mule Deer hunt. The gun is a Rem. Mtn. rifle with a very slender barrel. PLEASE BE ADVISED, THIS LOAD IS WARM BUT NOT OVER QUICK LOAD MAX. worked fine in my gun but yours may be different. Primers were fine, just a slight extractor mark on a couple of cases all mic'd within specs.. 45.2 gr IMR4064, Hornady 139gr SST, CCI 250 primers. Avg. speed 2978, ES 26.6 SD 10.0 Shot was taken at 286 yards. I was aiming just behind the shoulder but the cross wind was stronger then I thought. Bullet entered dead center low on the right shoulder, took out the top 2/3 of the heart and exited off side shoulder. The goat never took a step. | |||
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I shot this cull Buck with my 338 Laupa and it ran I guess it is not a good killer, right?  One can easily see the entrance hole, but according to Vapodog he ran because I am a bad shot rcumuglia and Vapodog are two hillarious dudes  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Trax, "In stark contrast to Bells efficient killing record of BG with small calibre, T.Roosevelt used larger calibres and regularly lost wounded game. Obviously was unaware or didnt care about the effects of ignoring his limitations." Dead on. Teddy couldn't see or shoot worth spit but it didn't stop him from blazing away. The man did wonders for the national parks in America but he sure didn't mind taking unethical shots and wounding animals. I tried reading one of his books and had to put it down after he was blazing away at geese with his rifle. | |||
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Wassbeeman
Sir, I have never found it tedious to read the factual exploits of what man can be should he demand the best from his talents, study and practice. I find it inspiring. I have read Bell's books over and over because of that fact and the experiences he shares. I do find it terribly sad to read of the folks who shoot for the big middle and think a bigger gun makes it ok. It is partly why I tiptoe into these exchanges where we know there is a high chance of being suffered as a fool. However; when I do it is because maybe the efforts will result in somebody thinking again and becoming a knowledgeable shooter of game and a better marksman at the same time. Maybe not. We each get to choose our outcomes. It's a free Country; unless your flying commercial that is… best regards, dmw "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Your post is spot on. You hit the hit it out of the park..... Graet Post  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Scott you should find this interesting, Unlike Roosevelt who was just a buffoon blindly blazing way...As a further example of Bells marksmanship (if brain shooting a great many elephants isn’t enough), Bell used up the remainder of his unwanted .318 ammunition by shooting flying birds over an African lake. Spectators believed that he was using a shotgun and were amazed to find that he was actually using a rifle. | |||
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Sounds like there are two extremes of hunting fools. Those that use the smallest caliber possible to show how skilled they are at making the perfect shot and those that think the biggest, fastest magnum is better every time. There is definitely a balance. I think you should use the most appropriate round you are comfortable shooting for the game you are hunting. You should not take shots beyond what your caliber or shooting skills dictate. | |||
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Well that just makes way to much sense, quick someone refute what he said!! | |||
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The statement is good....no problem....except it lacks definition. I stated my requirements a long time ago 1500 FT-LB for elk and 1000 ft-lb for deer.....further my shooting comfort is 400 yards. Also I stated my (subjective) reasons for my criteria! I've asked others to state their requirements.....See if you can find anyone that has stated such data. All we get here is platitudes and innuendo! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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1500 FPE for Elk what the hell good is that number? A 243 can generate 2000+ FPE, so it meets the FPE requirements that you set. WOW!!!!!!!!!!! _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I never came up with that number. As stated earlier I don't like energy numbers because it squares velocity. I'm old school, I like moderate velocity cartridges and using cup and core bullets for deer. I have 4 big game rifles. 257R 6.5x55 (on the way) 338 Federal 9.3x62 Their velocity windows are all between 2500-2800. The first 2 are for deer size game, the 2nd two are for elk size game. I'll choose the appropriate gun and load for the game I'm going to hunt. | |||
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Posted on 24 Hour in a thread about taking deer with a 223. The thread is 4 pages http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...l/223_Deer_Kill_Pics
How many FPE is required???? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Mentally pre-conceived FPE requirements can be different to actual FPE required to properly do the job. However,some people just have a certain FPE number frozen in their head. | |||
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It's no different than going to an auction.....lets say a gun auction.... You go and look at the gun (s) you would like to buy. You assess them and state to yourself your own limits on the price you're willing to pay.....you decide this in advance of the bidding.....If it goes for less then great.....but you have set a limit on your bid. Saying "I'll pay a fair price" isn't being at all realistic.....you state a price for your limit or you'll pay too much. If this is done before bidding you have the benefit of calm reasoned decision making.....then stick with it!!!..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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