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Brad it looks like you’re doing all right for a lazy slob. Keep the pack under 50 # or you may fine yourself using 2 canes by the time you're 58.   | |||
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Hey RW, You're not glad that the experts showed up to straighten everything out? I am. I've learned a lot. 1. Kinetic Energy means nothing 2. Shot placement is #1 importance 3. jwp learned about inelastic collisions from Google 4. Monolithic bullets have superior killing ability 5. Anyone who disagrees has vaginal lips they talk through 6. Brad has a spy camera in my house; I need to move my bathroom computer far enough away from the pot so I can't be seen reading Field and Stream, posting, and chitting simultaneously. 7. Taylor's experience killing thousands of big African Game means nothing because he liked sausage 8. Physics and mathematics are useless All of this is useful info. One can come to the conclusion that since we have been enlightened, all that is needed to kill any animal that walks the surface of the Earth is one shooting a monolithic bullet that will cause an exit. It would be fun to see video of jwp using a .17 Remington with the TSX on Cape Buffalo or Rhinos | |||
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Since this is a thread about elk, and since you seem to have specific ideas about what makes an appropriate elk cartridge, pony up some photo's of your elk kills...  | |||
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Chuck, there's a reason I have a supply of 500 qty .277 150 Nosler Partitions on hand... (grin). | |||
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Direct from Ross Seyfried: "Cartridges like the .270, 6.5 x 55 Swede and the .300 Winchester are all wonderful and effective cartridges that do not handicap the hunter; while the .30 and .33 G&A (Now the Remington Ultra) offer little advantage and often a huge handicap." | |||
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"The subject of “energy” is a long-debated one, but rest assured it does not matter at all." | |||
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"Within the realm of cartridges that are capable of taking big game, success in bringing down any animal, your actual animal, is dependent on two things, where your bullet strikes, combined with the bullet that does the striking. Those two things and those two alone will determine your success or failure." | |||
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Wow, Ross reminds me of me... (grin). | |||
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And speaking of John Taylor, he took most of his elephants with the 7x57... | |||
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Sirs, I have always tried to be polite and not hold my opinions and observations up as written by the finger of God on Stone. I don't see how sarcasm or just plain nastiness advances the cause of anybody very far. I certainly try not to get sucked into straw man arguments on things like velocity or energy. That was not the question. The Question was on killing elk loads with 7mm-08 in the hands of a wife or son. To stand against using that caliber for that kind of game makes one stand against the completely proven fact, over many, many years, by many, many people. To do so with sarcasm and other unkindness creates a clear view of ones character and does take the enjoyment out of sharing on the Internet. I see in one comment above, something about solids being sufficient for anything. I understand it was said to be sarcastic. Well I don’t know is my answer. I have only shot one elk, three deer with true solids. What I have observed is that one would have been hard pressed to tell the difference in the internal damage with those round nose solids, two 30 calibers and one 338 caliber (the elk), and one .458 500 grain solid from any Barnes X bullet of the same caliber or many of the other expanding types I am used to shooting. Small entrance, shoulder flesh damage and broken bones, shredded lungs and or big hole in the heart, small exit, dead within the time it took to run into the ground. Others like WDM Bell had more experience with solids and wrote extensively on the subject. Again, the few head of game I have killed have not shown he was wrong which is not the same as saying he was “right.” "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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RC, I hope you dont take Taylor as the end all on hunting. he had a hard time differentiating poor bullet performance with poor cartridges. He was'nt above a bit of BS either, in Big game and Big Game Rifles he told of the .375 H&H as being so superior he shot through 7 eland with one shot.  Old Glen Cottar shot a crap load of Rhino with a 32 spl loaded with solids winchester loaded at the time. Taylor also said the 450 blackpowder express aka a warm loaded 45/70 nowdays, was a great lion and buff gun, with the hardened lead bullet fine for ele and rhino. The old timers make alot of fodder for thought, but when you really read and compare everything they write, they often contradict themselves. | |||
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Brad, I know that trick! I had a captain that used to run with us with full rucks in ranger school. I picked it up one time when we were eating and he wasnt in sight, full of styrofoam.  | |||
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LOL, that's me! | |||
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For the FPE crowd (RC.Robert Wilde & Vapodog) Let's examine this minimum of 1500 FPE. For the sake of arguement let's say that we have a large Elk of 1000 pounds. We divide the weight into the FPE and we find that we are getting 1.5 FPE for every 1 pound of body weight. Using the minimum of FPE theory, how much FPE do we need for a large bull Elephant of 12,000 pounds? We take the 1.5 FPE for each pound and come up with a minimum needed of 18,000 FPE. This of course is absurd. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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This is the exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 Bull Elk of a .300 win mag with a 180 grain bullet that impacted with a about 2,600 FPS velocity which calculates to 2,700 FPE  Same Elk and the exit of a finishing shot from the .500 JRH with a 440 grain bullet at 950 FPS for 882 FPE.  RC, please post a few pictures of your elk or other big game kills. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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That was Bell, he also used the 6.5,303 and the 318 Westly Richards which about the same power level as the 338 Federal _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Fury01, take the 7-08 and load it with TTSX bullet and you will have no trouble taking Elk with it. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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He switched from 6.5x54(159gn 2230mv) to 7x57(173gn 2300mv) simply because 6.5ms ammunition was unreliable,not because he felt need of more cartridge. Compare these ballistics with what is commonly regarded as essential performance today. He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle. . | |||
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Let's examine this minimum FPE requirement from another angle. For Elephants we have all heard that 5000 FPE is what is needed. With a 12,000 pound Elephant that is .41666666667 FPE for each pound of body wieght. Taking .41666666667 times the 1,000 pounds for the Elk and we get 416.66666667 FPE that is required It doesn't take a lot of logic or experience to begin to see that attempting to rate lethality with FPE is an extremely flawed system _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Or one could use the eg: 6.5x54-159gn 2230/1756fpe -:- 12000lb = .14633 fpe for each pound of elephant. .14633 applied to 1000lb Elk = 146.33 fpe | |||
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I took this Bison with a .500 Linebaugh shooting a 525 grain WLFN hard cast bullet at 1,100 FPS for 1,410 FPE. The bullet went completely through the animal and exited, blood poured out of both the exit and entance holes. A .22-250 55 grain bullet at 3,600 FPS calculates to 1,583 FPE. Is the .22-250 better for Bison because it has more energy? rccumugla, Vapodog and Robert Wilde tells us the FPE is what matters.  I know that my experience tells me to take the handgun and leave the 22-250 for ground squirrels and coyotes _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Momentum tis more important than energy. Stopping ability tis more important than killing ability. | |||
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I thought stopping and killing ability were the same thing.  | |||
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Thanks JWP475 for your post. I never had trouble taking Elk with the 7x57 loaded with a 160 speer so no doubt the Barnes would work well in the 7mm-08. I think the one I gave to a young cousin has used the 140 Barnes X's on several. If I had one today, I think I would see what shot best from 140 up to 160 in the Barnes, compare it to the Nosler of same weight, hoping the NP 150 won because of the Lead it contains for weight, thus powder room and I just like the NP! Then I would go kill an elk. I would take the shot from sitting with sticks and or sling most of the time, or standing if I jumped one. At least that is what my elk hunting history tells me. I like to walk and I like to shoot sitting so I am a "still" hunter who has jumped an elk or three. I also never had trouble taking elk with a Model 29 shooting a 250 Grain Keith hard cast with about 15.5 gr of Blue dot. Not really a rompin stompin 44 load. Just a nice shooting S&W 29 load. About 50 yards on a big cow, broke both shoulders, bone fragments and the bullet destroyed the lungs, picked it up from under the exit side hide. Cow went less than 50 yards. If you know elk, this is "normal" if there is such a thing on elk. She was well and truly dead and her ribs looked like the 300 Win mag picture above with the silver dollar hole. Shot that one standing through a pie plate hole in the Oak Brush. Fun times. best regards "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Taking an Elk with a 250 grain Keith Semi wadcutter in 44 mag. Now that is classic, congratultions!  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I do believe that foot pounds is way over rated when it comes to measuring terminal performance of a cartridge simply because the formula squares velocity. I think what Vapo an some of the others are trying to say is you need to have some standards of performance when shooting big game. You need an appropriate cartridge shooting an appropriate bullet for the range you are likely to be shooting. There are people who try to get away with the smallest caliber possible and wear it like a badge of honor of their shooting prowess. Can you kill an Elk with a 243? Of course but if you can handle a 30-06, isn't it the more appropriate choice? | |||
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Don't you badge-of-honor fellers have an answer for Scott? | |||
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The cartridge in question was 7/08, where did 243 enter into this? | |||
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Hmmmm; the since passed African hunter and guide 'Finn Aagard' made the comment that 'with similar hits on a large African animal such as an Eland, 'I defy anyone to tell exactly which cartridge was used, from the 7x57 up through the .375 H&H. , from the reaction of the animal when hit'. He put the 7mm on the lower rung of suitable cartrdges for this purpose; but alas,it was on the ladder. I sincerely doubt that any of the nay sayer's here have anywhere near 'Finns' hands on experience. Eland. . . . Elk. . . . . not sure which is tougher to put on the ground, but I doubt there's much difference. I've only kilt 6 Elk myself, but none of those were particularly hard to put on the ground. | |||
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Thanks for the replies, didn't mean to start an argument ( or did I  ). I have always used Nosler bullets with great success but I may like to try Barnes in the 7mm-08. Does anyone know at what minimum velocity the TSX will fully expand in .284, either 140 or 150 grain ? | |||
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All the talk about what is good and what is not good for elk, mule deer, antelope is well and good, but the point is, in this thread it's a moot point to begin with. This fellow needs this rifle for the wife and son--obviously there is better, more potent calibers and cartridges, but that does not matter. How will this perform--and what is important.
This is the key--Put the right bullet, choose the right bullet for the mission at hand. In this case of 7mm, Swift, North Fork, and Barnes TSX--Premiums to insure penetration. Keep ranges reasonable, shot placement, and let the "Bullet Do The Work"---it's that simple. NO--she cannot handle a larger cartridge or caliber--neither can my wife. I ended up with her a M70 FW in 6.5X55, she loves it, she can shoot it well, does not hurt her, scare her, or aggravate her. I would much rather her handle a 9.3 or 416, but that is not going to happen. So I load her up with a 120 gr Barnes TSX, or 140 gr Swift A, depending on her mission either will do, at a moderate velocity of around 2400-2500 fps. Penetration and bullet choice is the key. This BS about energy is a waste of time. The bullet does the work, not energy. It's ALL about the bullet. As some have stated, put a good bullet in the right place, the rest is history, let the bullet do it's job. End Of Story. How many elk have I killed? Let's get this out of the way before it starts--1 Elk! A few reds, and that's about my "Deer" hunting experience. Oh, a moose too. All of those with either 338 Win or 358 STA. Now I have piled up zebra, eland, wildebeast, kudu and things like that, like stacking cord wood! Personally I believe with my limited experience on elk they seem to be pretty easy to kill when compared to a eland, zebra, or wildebeast. Kudu are soft like elk in my opinion. I have mostly used medium and larger bore rifles, and very much leaning towards larger bores. Fact is I don't own a 7mm anything, and would not have one. I have no use for it. But, what I recommend for the wife is totally different than what I would use. She can get her mission accomplished on zebra, eland, wildebeast and the like with her 6.5X55, and a proper bullet, with proper placement, and not scare her, and that is the point. Now if you want to talk buffalo, that's another chapter, step upstairs! But bring bullets with you, not some fantasy energy numbers. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I don't consider it an arguement, I consider it a discussion. As you can see from the attitudes of the guys who are proponents of using the bare minimum caliber to get the job done, it is more of an arguement. The fact is, and it has not been disputed by me or anyone else taking the postion, that the 7mm-08 will get the job done with range limitations and accurate shots. As Scott has contributed:
.....many chamberings will get the job done. But my position, which I believe is the same position as others, is that there are better caliber choices for elk regardless of who is pulling the trigger. The light caliber guys here are concerned about a woman or kid taking some recoil but not as concerned about the consequences on the other end of the gun...the game animal. As for the question about my posting some pics of stuff I've killed, I've done that in the past. If you want to do a search on a thread called "How to post pictures that respect the game, our sport" you'll find a few there; antelope, mule deer, elk, oryx etc. It's not worth it to me to go back through the process again. Here is my latest trophy:  It's a B&C jackalope. It took a lot of practice, but with good shot placement I got the job done.  I mounted him right next to the other.  I took the the other with what some might consider an "inadequate caliber" or "light for game", but I just had shoulder surgery and couldn't take the recoil of my 7mm-08. I used the .22 caliber Aguila Colibri loads. Solid 20 grain bullet. It just goes to show you good things happen when you use the right bullet and put it in the right place.   | |||
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Not sure about you guys, but that just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy! | |||
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 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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How many FPE did the arrow have? These are excellent trophys eceeding all expectations
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84. I know, I know, that's overkill for such a critter! | |||
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