I will try to get some pics of the forearm, take-down system and varius other veiws.The rifle is a #2model, sighted for 140gr bullets. The slot in the stock is beleived to be for when he was shooting on his stand, or maybe ladder to rope it up to him but noone really knows.Thanks for the good feedback.

George, thank you very much for the photos of this wonderful rifle with so much African history attached. If I may ask, what would this rifle go for somewhere like SCI,I have never saw another rifle with so much hunting history for sale before.Are you looking interested in selling this Rigby.

easy there TB, I am buying a 505 Gibbs from the man; and trying to get him to bring the 275 along when he and his brother come out this fall elk hunting. You can buy it the day they get back...

Rich
DRSS

Posting a few more pictures for georgegibbs505:









[Click images to enlarge.]

thanks charles...

i need to smoke a cigarette now

boom stick, X2

Allen

Charles

Thank you for posting pictures.

georgegibbs505

Thank you for sharing this special rifle with all of us. Rifles like this should be photographed and documented. There is only one rifle like this and God forbid but if anything happened to it, it would be lost forever.
I welcome more pictures and a brief account of how you ended up with it. Thanks again for sharing.

James

quote:

Charles

Thank you for posting pictures.

My pleasure!

georgegibbs505,

W.D.M. "Karamoja" Bell's, then Robert Ruark's, then Mark Selby's rifle. Now yours. That is a true piece of African history you have obtained. What an artifact!

Congratulations on a great find and thanks to you (and Charles) for posting these photos.

Interesting about the rifle being a take down that was regulated for the "high velocity" 140 grain bullet load. That would lead me to think it wasn't one of Bell's legendary elephant rifles, since he reportedly used 173 grain solids for elephant.

I would be interested to know how this rifle handles the heavy bullet loads.

Thank you for posting. Wonderful piece of history.
Larry

Heartfelt thanks to Charles_Helm for posting pictures and to georgegibbs505 for sharing a piece of history.

I agree with James Bennett in that we need to document with photographs and historical notes, rifles such as this one, to be preserved for all time.

Great Thread!

How amazing to see "how THEY did it" and what they did it with..

Mick, I hope you aren't offended by this reply.. but your posts aren't actually on topic, and your opinion for the quality of the post is that, your opinion..

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m not much of a romancer of old rifles. Sorry if I offend someone.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
What is the point of this post?..

... but everyone has a right to their opinion.

Just an awesome rifle

Mick,

let's just say that this rifle may have killed more elephants than all of the posters on this forum...from Day One...

Rich
DRSS

J Bennet, I found this rifle in a gunstore in Ohio. My brother and I went to get a Shiloh Sharps for him and on the way back we stopped in this gunstore and there it was lying in a glass case.I thought I had heard of this rifle in Joe Coogans article and eventually struck a deal and they give me 30 days to buy it. Joe Coogan wandeed where the rifle had been since Mark sold it in 83.mrlexma, I am going to try some heavy bullets in it later on, a man that wants this rifle said if he gets it he will take it to africa and shoot an elephant with it.

/

ALF, are you qouting Gregor Woods book, the rifle pictured in it with the scope isn't my rifle,the rifle he has pictured was made for Bell's Father-in-law Sir Ernest Soarez and is SN-4756 and delivered on 20th June 1921.Later given to Bell, then Bell to RDC Macleod, a great personal friend and then passed to Louis Meyers a South African hunter.Bell returned to Africa later with Gerrit and Malcolm Forbes and travel through Africa, he owned a Rigby 22High-Power that just sold at auction,built for him in 1929 and there are reports that he shot Buffalo with a 22 High-Power,I don't know if he had one earlier on may have used this one to do it. The scope and mounts were put on when Harry Selby had the Treeble Bros fit them.

Doesn;t Rigby record serial numbers? I would think this could verify which rifle he has.
_BAxter

Well its obviously not worth anything but needs to be sold for scrap metal...

georgegibbs505...I'll pay for the shipping here to get rid of that useless piece of a gun safe space hog.

/

Alf...you are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate all your posts

The statistics I've seen about Bell stated that he had killed "over 800 of his world record bag of 1,011 elephant with the .275 Rigby using Kynoch military full-jacketed round-nose 173-grain ammunition". The other calibers he used were not stated, but Bell himself once noted that he had killed elephant with the .303 British and the ".256 Mannliucher-Schoenauer". Apparently this rifle caused him some trouble, as the 160-grain FMJ ammo he used had bullets that got stuck in the rifling when he closed the bolt, and the bullets would stay in the barrel if he extracted a live round, dumping the powder charge in the action and tying up the gun. In addition, he found that sometimes the 6.5mm bullets tended to bend on impact with bone, and this deflected them.

I am not sure whether Bell ever addressed the subject of shooting elephant for sport, as of course, he was not a sport hunter. Once Bell himself discussed what might be the best cartridge for shooting elephant the way he did, and said he thought the .308 Winchester round might very well be the best. The attributes he saw that made it so was the short case (short bolt stoke) and the fact that a 220-grain .308" RN solid bullet having the same design features as the bullets he liked in the 173-grain 7mm would be 4 diameters long (required) and be thicker, further reducing bending.

This article appeared in an American Rifleman in 1954, but I do not know if it was written then or much earlier.

quote:

I am not sure whether Bell ever addressed the subject of shooting elephant for sport, as of course, he was not a sport hunter. Once Bell himself discussed what might be the best cartridge for shooting elephant the way he did, and said he thought the .308 Winchester round might very well be the best. The attributes he saw that made it so was the short case (short bolt stoke) and the fact that a 220-grain .308" RN solid bullet having the same design features as the bullets he liked in the 173-grain 7mm would be 4 diameters long (required) and be thicker, further reducing bending.

I am not sure whether Bell ever addressed the subject of shooting elephant for sport, as of course, he was not a sport hunter. Once Bell himself discussed what might be the best cartridge for shooting elephant the way he did, and said he thought the .308 Winchester round might very well be the best. The attributes he saw that made it so was the short case (short bolt stoke) and the fact that a 220-grain .308" RN solid bullet having the same design features as the bullets he liked in the 173-grain 7mm would be 4 diameters long (required) and be thicker, further reducing bending.

Hmmm...

Under this criteria Bell might actualy have liked the 300 SAUM/WSM?!?!?!?

I'd have to reread bell's Book, "Karmojo Safari" to be absolutely sure, but if memory serves, his main firearms for elephant were his .275 Rigby and the .303 British. He did use the 6.5 Mannlicher but due to problems already mentioned, reserved that rifle for game for the pot. IIRC, he sais that he killed 800 of his elephants with the .275, and most of the rest with the .303 which he liked because of the 10 round magazine. He also had a .400 caliber something for the up close and nasty personal times, but he said he really did not like that one.
Anyway, all the above is what I remember from the book.
Yeds, he did later think that the .308 Win. with a 220 gr FMJ bullet just might be the ticket for elephants. it's not to hard to come close to 2300 FPS in a 22" barreled .308 using W-760 and accuracy is just fine. IIRC, Bell's .275 ammo did right around 2250 to 2300 FPS.
Paul B.

gg505

Thanks for your reply.
I will send you a PM later.

James

Very nice rifle.

I hope you can have this rifle professionally photographed. It deserves it as well as a brief pictorial in DGJ or other such publication.

Thanks for sharing it with us. All too often, such items end up hidden in some rich dude's summer home, never to be seen for decades.

Duckear, I probably will have it photographed by a pro, and this rifle was stored in the vault of a rich man for 24yrs along with alot of Purdey's and Hollands. I would also like the rifle to be written up in a good mag but don't know if it will happen.I have a guy that will take it on an Elephant hunt if he gets it.

Paul B,
I think you will find thet Bell used a 303 British, not as you suggest, the 303 Savage.
But then I could be wrong.
I have been wrong before, my wife tells me so.

/

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
Paul B,
I think you will find thet Bell used a 303 British, not as you suggest, the 303 Savage.
But then I could be wrong.
I have been wrong before, my wife tells me so.

NOPE! That was my bad. I've been dickering with a fellow who wants to buy a bunch of factory .303 savage I have and that's been sticking in my brain. I fixed it.
Paul B.

quote:

9. date ? 350 Rigby

This one intrigues me...

Any more info on it in terms of animals it was used on and what bell thought of it?

Thanks Alf!

George,

I am among the many who thank you for sharing the photos and information on the Bell rifle.

I'd heard of it and often quoted it to people as about one of the most desirable historic firearms.

Another that I'd like to know about is Corbett's .450/400 double that later belonged to Elmer Keith. An article in Safari magazine was written about Corbett's 7mm a while ago and yes they were to produce about 10 (???) replicas.

It's not quite the mistery of the missing second Hickock ivory handled colt but the yarn would be very interesting.

I hope you are enjoying the old gun.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Bell's rifles:

Sources:
1. Karamojo Safari ( published 1949)
2. Wanderings of an Elephant hunter (Published 1923)
3. Bell of Africa (Edited by Townsend Whelen 1960)
4. Rigby records:

The Rigby Records indicate the following rifles:

1. 1910: 275 Rigby No 2 High Velocity ( The HV rifle is for the 140 gr bullet)
2. 1910 275 Rigby No. 2 High Velocity
3. 1911 275 Rigby No 2 High velocity with special back sight for 173 gr bullet
4. 1912 275 Rigby No 2 HV with special rear sight
5. 1912 416 Rigby
6. 1913 416 Rigby
7. 1922 275 Rigby No 2 with special back Sight
8. 1923 275 Rigby No. 1 for the 173 gr bullet
9. date ? 350 Rigby

Other dates:

1902: Safari in the Karamojo:

conflicting reports:

From Wanderings:
Lee Enfield 303 Rifles more than one ( 63 elephant accounted for with the 303)
Snider rifles 8
275 Rigby
450-400 Double

From Karamojo safari:
303 only.

1909 +/-

Danl Frazer 6.5 MS in the 1903 MS carbine
George Gibbs 256 Mannlicher but this rifle never saw Elephant hunting

Other Rifles:
8x57
360

Westley richards 1911:
318 WR rifle(s) ( shot 19 elephant in one day )

liberia safari: 318 WR and a 22 rook rifle

Truesdell on the Rifle on page 164 perpetuates the myth about Bell and 800 elephant with a 275 and 175 gr bullets. Truesdell cites 3 rifles only: a 275 rigby mauser , a 400 double, a 318 Jeffery mauser? ( page 114/115)

Sanchez Arinho's Elephant hunters pages 69-79 gives a more accurate and concise tally and perspective on Bells rifle use.

Alf,

Reading Bell's books is quite confusing as he made many conflicting statements on the use of his rifles.

Thanks for the information, but I suppose we will never know for sure, for obvious reasons.

Since you see these comments about "but Bell shot a zillion elephants with a 7x57" all the time I suspect the legend will live on for many years.

What action is this gun built on i.e.. Intermediate or Standard length and is it a Small Ring or Large Ring?

It kind of looks like a small ring in the picture but I can't quite tell.

Allen

quote:

Originally posted by twobobbwana:
Another that I'd like to know about is Corbett's .450/400 double that later belonged to Elmer Keith.

Unless I'm mistaken, it's in the Keith Museum that's in the Cabela's store in Boise, Idaho. Somebody posted photos here a while back.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Does anyone know what thread the Elmer Keith pictures are on?

Thanks for the Cabelas tip. I got both my actions, well rifles there, they bought a local collection.

I'll stop in on Monday and have a look.

I think we pretty much decided to use the 1910 Mexican for Heather's .275 Rigby. With the small ring we can scale the barrel shank and rear sight boss also and that should make her a nice trim little rifle.

Thanks for all the input guys.I have one more decision on an action to make, but I'll start a new thread for that.

Allen

That is an incredible rifle! I would love to have anything owned by Bell, Ruark, or Selby matter less all of them. It is a historic gun if they shot it once or a million times, makes no difference to me.

Thanks for posting the pics!

Thanks for posting the pictures. It so happens that THAT particular rifle has held fasination for me ever since I read about Bells life. Now I need a cigerette, and I don't smoke! Thanks again.

great post and a rifle to be proud of.thanx