Great article!

I especially like the MPBR comparisons with the 308

http://www.chuckhawks.com/358Win_mystery.htm

The Mystery of the .358 Winchester

By Rick Ryals

I have read several articles about the .358 Winchester, including Chuck Hawks' article on the Rifle Cartridge Page of Guns and Shooting Online. Based on what I have read, everyone who has used the cartridge has had nothing but high praise for it. From all accounts its killing power is outstanding, far in excess of what would be expected from its modest case size or its paper ballistics. Its recoil is modest for the level of power it provides. The expansion ratio for .35 caliber cartridges is ideal for shorter barreled rifles. This means that the .358 can realize its full potential in a 20 to 22 inch barrel rather than the 26 inch barrel needed for most magnum cartridges. The huge mystery about the .358 Winchester is its incredible lack of popularity.

I have considered the various reasons given for its unpopularity and for each reason offered I can name other cartridges for which the same could be said, yet these are popular cartridges. I would like to look at each of the reasons I have read for its failure in the market place, and discuss their merit.

HEAVY RECOIL

Heavy recoil has long been cited for the failure of such cartridges as the .358 Winchester and the .350 Remington Magnum. However, there are other cartridges that recoil just as much or more and which sell extremely well. The various .300 magnums are prime examples. Heavy recoil is sometimes cited as a disadvantage in discussions of the .300's, but it certainly has not hindered their popularity.

The .300 Winchester Magnum with a 180 grain bullet at 2960 fps delivers 25.9 foot-pounds of recoil from an 8.5 pound rifle. As a comparison, the .358 Winchester with a 250 grain bullet at 2300 fps delivers 25.4 foot-pounds of recoil from a 7.5 pound rifle. So we see that even with a one pound lighter rifle, the .358 recoils slightly less than a .300 magnum.

Let's also compare the .358 with the other end of the spectrum. The .45-70 is another very popular cartridge. A 300 grain bullet launched at 1800 fps from an 8 pound rifle generates 22.5 foot-pounds of recoil. The 405 grain bullet at 1330 fps generates around 22.8 foot-pounds. These are the standard low pressure loads. With hotter loads for modern high strength rifles, the .45-70 will push a 350 grain bullet at 2100 fps, providing 36.4 foot-pounds of recoil from an 8 pound rifle. Even the light .45-70 loads are in the vicinity of the .358 recoil, while the heavy loads far exceed it.

We see that there are popular cartridges that generate recoil equal to or exceeding that of the .358 Winchester. Recoil alone does not keep a cartridge from becoming popular.

LOW VELOCITY

This is another criticism of the .358 Winchester. Let's see how it compares here with other popular cartridges. With maximum powder charges the .358 can provide the following velocities from various bullet weights:

.358 Winchester, 180 grain bullet at 2700 - 2800 fps
.358 Winchester, 200 grain bullet at 2500 - 2600 fps
.358 Winchester, 225 grain bullet at 2400 - 2500 fps
.358 Winchester, 250 grain bullet at 2200 - 2300 fps

These are typical velocities for the various bullet weights and such loads are listed in several reloading manuals with a variety of powders. The .358 Winchester Super-X factory load drives a 200 grain Silvertip bullet at a MV of 2490 fps. How does this compare with the velocities of other cartridges?

.308 Winchester, 150 grain bullet at 2820 fps
.308 Winchester, 165 grain bullet at 2700 fps
.308 Winchester, 180 grain bullet at 2620 fps
.300 Winchester Magnum, 150 grain bullet at 3290 fps
.300 Winchester Magnum, 180 grain bullet at 2960 fps
.338 Winchester Magnum, 200 grain bullet at 2950 fps
.338 Winchester Magnum, 250 grain bullet at 2660 fps
.45-70 Government, 300 grain bullet at 1810 fps
.45-70 Government, 350 grain bullet at 2100 fps
.45-70 Government, 405 grain bullet at 1330 fps

The .358 runs anywhere from 100 to 300 fps behind the velocities of the .308 Winchester, approximately 600 fps behind the .300 Winchester Magnum and 250 to 350 fps behind the .338 Winchester Magnum. It is around 900 fps faster than the low pressure .45-70 loads and about 200 fps faster that the high pressure 350 grain load.

These comparisons are for bullets of comparable sectional density and/or intended usage. While the .358 comes in second place to the high intensity smaller bores and magnums, it clearly outdistances the increasingly popular .45-70 big bore in the velocity race.

Whenever I have considered the .358's unpopularity I have long believed it due to its moderate velocity, but then I noticed the .45-70 and its increasing popularity in recent years. How do we explain this, considering that the velocity of that old cartridge is anemic compared to the .358? It is a mystery to me.

Since velocity affects both trajectory and energy, let's look at them next.

TRAJECTORY

Short range trajectory is another reason proposed for the .358's unpopularity. Let's compare its trajectory with other popular cartridges to see if this criticism is valid. To simplify things, we will compare the maximum point blank range of various cartridges to see how the .358 stacks up.

.308 Winchester, 150 grain at 2820 fps - MPBR 264 yards
.308 Winchester, 165 grain at 2700 fps - MPBR 260 yards
.308 Winchester, 180 grain at 2620 fps - MPBR 250 yards
.300 Winchester Magnum, 150 grain at 3290 fps - MPBR 300 yards
.300 Winchester Magnum, 180 grain at 2960 fps - MPBR 284 yards
.338 Winchester Magnum, 200 grain at 2950 fps - MPBR 289 yards
.338 Winchester Magnum, 250 grain at 2660 fps - MPBR 265 yards
.358 Winchester, 180 grain at 2700 fps - MPBR 255 yards
.358 Winchester, 200 grain at 2500 fps - MPBR 237 yards
.358 Winchester, 250 grain at 2300 fps - MPBR 227 yards
.45-70 Government, 300 grain at 1810 fps - MPBR 164 yards
.45-70 Government, 405 grain at 1330 fps - MPBR 130 yards

With bullet weights for deer-sized game, the .358 doesn't do nearly as bad as its reputation would lead you to believe. Using 180 grain bullets, a number of reloading manuals show loads that meet or exceed 2700 fps. This will provide a MPBR of around 255 yards, which is comparable to the .308 with a 150 or 165 grain bullet. The .308 is not usually considered a short range cartridge. Note also that this is only 30 yards shy of the MPBR of the .300 Winchester Magnum with 180 grain bullets.

Next up are bullet weights suitable for a combination of game. For the .358 this includes 200 to 225 grain bullets. A 200 grain bullet can be loaded in excess of 2500 fps, for a MPBR of 237 yards. This is about 23 yards behind the .308 with 165 grain bullets and 47 yards behind the .300 Winchester Magnum with 180 grain bullets.

Finally, let's look at bullet weights for the largest North American game. The .358 will push 250 grain bullets around 2300 fps for a MPBR of 227 yards. The .338 Winchester Magnum pushes a 250 grain bullet at 2660 fps for a MPBR of 265 yards. We see that the .338 has a 38 yard advantage.

The magnum fan will say, "See, my magnum has a much flatter trajectory." So what does this buy us? In other words, what advantage do we gain from the extra weight, barrel length, recoil, and muzzle blast of a magnum over our little .358? About 50 yards advantage in maximum point blank range with the .300 magnum. With a .338 magnum the advantage drops to about 40 yards.

What does this mean in the real world? Since the vast majority of game is harvested at 200 yards or less, it means very little. If you really plan on hunting at ranges exceeding 200 to 250 yards you should have a range finder. You should also shoot your rifle at these longer ranges to determine where it actually hits at various ranges. If you do this you can accurately determine the distance to the target (or animal), and you will know where to hold for a first shot hit. Since this method can be used whether you use a .358 or a .300 magnum, the supposed 40 to 50 yard advantage virtually disappears. If you are not willing to do this, you have no business shooting at live animals past 200 - 250 yards anyway.

I would also like to look at the trajectory issue from another perspective. The .358 has a much flatter trajectory than the venerable .45-70, but that cartridge enjoys great popularity. In fact, the .358 has close to a 100 yard advantage in MPBR over the old big bore. But apparently the .358 does not have the historical romance of the old big bore. It is truly one of the unsung blue-collar workers in the world of cartridges. It simply does the job and does it very well with a minimum of fuss. Meanwhile, everyone is oohing and aahing over the sexy magnums or playing Old West Buffalo Hunter with big bores.

ENERGY

Here is a comparison of the energy figures for various cartridges:

.308 Winchester, 150 grain at 2820 fps - 2648 foot pounds muzzle energy
.308 Winchester, 165 grain at 2700 fps - 2679 foot pounds muzzle energy
.308 Winchester, 180 grain at 2620 fps - 2743 foot pounds muzzle energy
.300 Winchester Magnum, 150 grain at 3290 fps - 3606 foot pounds muzzle energy
.300 Winchester Magnum, 180 grain at 2960 fps - 3503 foot pounds muzzle energy
.338 Winchester Magnum, 200 grain at 2950 fps - 3890 foot pounds muzzle energy
.338 Winchester Magnum, 250 grain at 2660 fps - 3899 foot pounds muzzle energy
.358 Winchester, 180 grain at 2700 fps - 2914 foot pounds muzzle energy
.358 Winchester, 200 grain at 2500 fps - 2776 foot pounds muzzle energy
.358 Winchester, 250 grain at 2300 fps - 2936 foot pounds muzzle energy
.45-70 Government, 300 grain at 1810 fps - 2183 foot pounds muzzle energy
.45-70 Government, 350 grain at 2100 fps - 3428 foot pounds muzzle energy
.45-70 Government, 405 grain at 1330 fps - 1591 foot pounds muzzle energy

The .358 has a 200 - 300 ft. lb. advantage over the .308. It has a 600 - 700 ft. lb. deficit to the .300 magnum and 900 -1000 ft. lb. deficit to the .338 magnum. It has a 600 - 1300 ft. lb. advantage over the low pressure .45-70 loads, and a 500 ft. lb. deficit to the high pressure .45-70 load.

The .358's energy level falls amazingly close to the middle of the pack compared to these other cartridges. All of these are fine hunting cartridges, each capable of providing a quick and humane kill within their range limitations. Compare the .358's energy and velocity to the 405 grain 45-70 load. Yet this 405 grain load was used to kill bison by the thousands by 19th Century hunters.

In fact, the .358's energy level is very close to the 30-06, while it throws medium bore slugs at moderate velocities. 2400 fps has long been advocated as an ideal velocity for penetration with medium to large bore African cartridges. So while the energy produced by the .358 falls below that of the large cased magnums, its bore size and velocity with the heavier bullets gives it killing power far in excess of its paper ballistics.

Keep in mind that the energy advantage of the small bore magnums is due to their high velocity. While there are a few high velocity cartridges intended for dangerous game, the great majority of these cartridges fall into the medium velocity, heavy bullet category. The fact that the .358 also combines these desirable traits should make us stop and think.

RIFLE AVAILABILITY

This criticism of the .358, unfortunately, is true. At the time of this writing, only the Browning BLR lever action and the Ruger M77 Hawkeye and Frontier bolt action rifles are chambered for the .358. If you like lever actions the BLR is an excellent choice. It is a strong, well designed action. It is also light and compact, which capitalizes on one of the major virtues of the cartridge. It has been available for several years with blued metal and walnut stock, and Browning has recently introduced a stainless steel version with a grey laminate stock. This gives you the choice of traditional beauty or greater weather resistance. Jon Wolfe has written an excellent review of this rifle that can be found on the Product Review Page of Guns and Shooting Online.

If you want a bolt action, the new Ruger Hawkeye would seem to be the way to go, as it is a more practical general purpose hunting rifle than the "scout" style Frontier. (The latter would be a good choice as a "guide rifle" type arm carried for protection, though.) The Ruger M77 action is an excellent one, offering push feed and the usual commercial Mauser 98 features that have made that type of action so well regarded.

If you don't like the BLR or the Ruger M77 you will either need to find your .358 on the used market, order a semi-custom rifle from a company like New Ultra Light Arms, or order a barreled action from a company like the Montana Rifle Company and put it in a stock. Or, you could choose to have an existing rifle rebarreled to .358 Win.

It turns out that .358 Winchester is a rare caliber in virtually all of the rifles that were once chambered for it (Win. M70, Win. M88, Savage M99). Because of this, in addition to the difficulty of finding a used .358 rifle, they demand premium prices that typically exceed $1000. A semi-custom rifle, such as New Ultra Light Arms builds, is going to set you back more than two grand.
A barreled action from the Montana Rifle Company runs around $900. A finished stock from Boyd's is around $150. These are not bad but they do require some minor inletting, and the wood to metal fit is not perfect. A higher quality stock is available from Accurate Innovations. They can provide finished stocks in semi-fancy claro walnut for $355, or a brown or gray laminate for $325. (See Chuck Hawks' review of Accurate Innovations stocks on the Rifle Information Page.) This option will give you a complete, semi-custom rifle for around $1050 to $1250.

If you have an existing short action rifle that you can spare, a rebarrel job is a possible alternative. A barrel manufacturer like E.R. Shaw can install a new barrel on your rifle for less than $300. With this option you will likely have to re-inlet the barrel channel of your stock to fit the new barrel.

This seems to be one of those self-perpetuating problems. Due to the .358's unpopularity it is unlikely that most gun makers will chamber it in their rifles. However, its lack of availability in a variety of rifles in turn contributes to its unpopularity. We can only hope that the BLR and the Ruger bolt actions will sell well enough in .358 for other manufacturers to take notice.

CARTRIDGE SELECTION

This is related to the rifle availability problem. This has been a negative factor for the .358 from the beginning. As far as I am aware, Winchester has been the only major ammunition factory to load .358 cartridges. The availability of a variety of loadings from smaller companies like Stars and Stripes is a positive sign. However, such companies are not widely known to the average shooter. Until I read about Stars and Stripes on Guns and Shooting Online, I was unaware of their existence.

Because of the limited selection of factory ammunition, the .358 has long been a handloaders' cartridge. The handloader has a wide selection of bullets available from 180 to 250 grains. With this range of bullet weights one can load for anything from pronghorn to elk and moose.

180 grain bullets can be loaded to 2700 fps with a wide variety of powders, and there are a few powders shown to provide 2800 fps. This would be a relatively flat shooting load for pronghorn or deer out to 300 yards.

220 or 225 grain bullets can be loaded to between 2400 and 2500 fps with several powders. These bullets would be suitable for deer sized game on up through elk and moose.

With a 250 grain bullet loaded to 2300 fps, you could even take on the big bears of the north. The new super bullets like the Barnes TSX provide another alternative. The Barnes 225 grain TSX loaded to 2400 - 2500 fps might make the ultimate all-around large game load for North American hunting with the .358.

WOODS CARTRIDGE

I believe this perception has done more to damage the .358's potential popularity than anything else. Many writers have tried to bury it with the epitaph, "It's a fine little woods cartridge." While it can certainly be used as a woods cartridge, the .358 is clearly, by any measure, more than a woods cartridge. The .338 or .375 magnums could also be used as woods cartridges, but no one would try to limit their use to such.

This is not to suggest that the .358 is in the same class as these cartridges. However, calling it a "woods cartridge" suggests that it is in the class of the .32 Special or the .35 Remington. While these are both excellent deer cartridges, attempting to include the .358 Winchester in their class does it a great injustice. The .358 is clearly a much more powerful cartridge, capable of taking a much wider variety of game, especially larger game, at longer ranges. It is within 100 fps of the .35 Whelen with all bullet weights and I have never seen that referred to as a "woods cartridge."

Gun writers have the power of life and death over rifle cartridges. They have often wielded this power to cripple enormously useful cartridges, and the .358 Winchester has been one of their victims. It has been depicted over and over, both in magazines and reloading manuals, as a short range woods cartridge. This perception, more than anything else, may explain the mystery of the .358's unpopularity.

CONCLUSION

The large-case magnums typically have the advantages of faster velocity, flatter trajectory and higher energy than standard cartridges. The magnums have been used by many folk to take a variety of game. It would be irrational to argue against their effectiveness.

Their downside is that they require longer barreled, heavier rifles and generate enormous recoil and muzzle blast. Since many install muzzle brakes to tame their heavy recoil, the muzzle blast can become literally deafening. Many hunters do not mind carrying long, heavy rifles and can endure heavy recoil and muzzle blast. For them the magnums may be a great choice. However, for many of us a shorter, lighter rifle is a welcome thing.

The .358 can be built as a short, handy rifle, unlike the .300 and .338 magnums. Yet the cartridge is powerful enough for the largest animals on this continent, while not being too much for deer. In fact, the .358 fits neatly between the standard .30 calibers and the grand old .45-70 and offers the best of both worlds. It provides killing power similar to the classic big bore and at the same time has a trajectory that is close to the .308 and .30-06. It will provide a maximum point blank range of 230 to 260 yards, which would be a long shot for me (and the great majority of hunters) under field conditions.

I believe it is an outstanding blend of bore size, killing power, reasonable trajectory and moderate recoil that can be had in a compact all-around rifle for North American hunting. To quote a famous Alaskan guide, Hal Waugh, the .358 Winchester is one of the "finest little big guns" ever to come along. The great mystery to me is why so few seem to agree.

The problem is that, in Europe at least 8x57 does it better on a true Mauser action and, in a short action you've too much bullet stuffed back inside the case.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
The problem is that, in Europe at least 8x57 does it better on a true Mauser action and, in a short action you've too much bullet stuffed back inside the case.

There is the 35x57 or 35-6.5 Swedish Mauser wildcats (if that does not exist it should) but how do you define "Better"? It is subjective to what is available, needs and desires. A long neck 358 Win to 2.165" or 2.25" would be interesting. On a 3" Winchester magazine length there is room to spare. Not to mention the shorter tip to canalure 35 bullets.

quote:

The Mystery of the 358 Winchester

There's no mystery here at all.....It's because there's no such thing as "deader".....

The .308 Winchester will do it just as well with less recoil, standard military cases, flatter trajectory, and better ammo availability....

While the .358 (and .338 federal as well) are fully capable of big game hunting, there are better rounds available......35 Whelen for one..

It may in fact be a better round.....but the "better part" simply is not usable!

quote:

There is the 35x57 or 35-6.5 Swedish Mauser wildcats...

Yes! Actually I had forgotten about that! There is the normal 9x57 Mauser in fact I had one many years ago and had forgotten all about it.

No Mystery, its one of the best mediums there is .. and the writers that complained about recoil are sissies.

winchester once said the most popular cart fromm their custom shop is the 358win ...

the first rifle i made for myself is a 358 win, which i did in my (gulp) 20s ... and i believed the recoil hype... and made it a douglas #5 1:10 twist ... no recoil to speak of .. built to shoot barnes, and then i was able to use it on game, alot ... nothing needed anything but a 225 gameking .. and that gun, as well as the several more i've built or bought, was better than moa with it.

right this minute, i am down to 2 358s .. the heavy springfield mentioned above, and a very light mexican mauser.. with a #2 20" douglas ...


MPBR is the great equalizer ...

Short Action (51 mm)
358 Winchester (Launched in 1955)
Brass can be fireformed from 308 Win brass.
Ballistics: 200 grain bullet at 2,490 fps
SD = .223
Mo = 200/7000 x 2,490 = 71.1 Lbs/ft-sec ------->

Intermediate Action (57 mm)
8x57 mm Mauser, (Launched in 1888)
Ballistics: 196 grain at 2,600 fps
SD = .268
Mo = 196/7000 x 2,600 = 72.8 Lbs/ft-sec ------>

Standard Action (63 mm)
a) 30-06 Spr (Launched in 1906)
200 grain at 2,569 fps
SD = .301
Mo = 200/7000 x 2,569 = 73.4 Lbs/ft-sec ------>

Warrior

Not a huge mystery in the states. Americans really don't shoot much over 30 cal. If they need more power they usually go to a 30 magnum before going to a mid bore. The general belief is faster is better rather than bigger is better.

The only over 30 that seems to be somewhat popular is the 338 win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Not a huge mystery in the states. Americans really don't shoot much over 30 cal. If they need more power they usually go to a 30 magnum before going to a mid bore. The general belief is faster is better rather than bigger is better.

The only over 30 that seems to be somewhat popular is the 338 win Mag.

Hey Scott....did you notice....I stuck a dagger in the back of the .338 Federal while I was at it!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
No Mystery, its one of the best mediums there is .. and the writers that complained about recoil are sissies..

SISSIES my ass ! Just getting older and smarter and leaving all that Macho BULL SHIT behind. Patients you may arrive some day. roger

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

What does this mean in the real world? Since the vast majority of game is harvested at 200 yards or less, it means very little. If you really plan on hunting at ranges exceeding 200 to 250 yards you should have a range finder. You should also shoot your rifle at these longer ranges to determine where it actually hits at various ranges. If you do this you can accurately determine the distance to the target (or animal), and you will know where to hold for a first shot hit. Since this method can be used whether you use a .358 or a .300 magnum, the supposed 40 to 50 yard advantage virtually disappears. If you are not willing to do this, you have no business shooting at live animals past 200 - 250 yards anyway.

The .358 can be built as a short, handy rifle,

The best part of the article to me is quoted above. I have a range finder on my list to get before next season gets going well.

Lately, I've been playing with my 9.3x57, made on a commercial FN Mauser action, 20" #4 PacNor barrel. I'm beginning to appreiate short and handy rifles more and more. It's a joy to shoot - low recoil, and accurate. Its trajectory isn't as good as the 358, but I'm not worried at all about hitting the target out to 200 yds or more.

BTW, bartache I liked your comment.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
No Mystery, its one of the best mediums there is .. and the writers that complained about recoil are sissies..

SISSIES my ass ! Just getting older and smarter and leaving all that Macho BULL SHIT behind. Patients you may arrive some day. roger

yeah, so SISSY if you can't take a hit from a 358 ... but, i guess, there's always tiddilywinks and shuffle board, if you need the less macho BS of not having a gun ... from someone that knows what recoil IS, and 28# aint recoil, i am indifferent between a 358 and a 30-06 ...

and if you think either kicks, perhaps its time for one of those senior cruises.... i heard they'll purree all your food for you

in short, there's a HUGE difference between recoil rationalization and macho .. and shooting a 358 AINT macho

meanie!

I think you could make a strong case for the 358Win if you only planned to hunt North America.

A problem is the fact that CZ is building really nifty carbines and rifles in 9,3x62 at a reasonable price. And there will always be factory ammunition and brass available. The X62 is an under 300yds world rifle, and close to the 375H&H power levels.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
meanie!

I think you could make a strong case for the 358Win if you only planned to hunt North America.

A problem is the fact that CZ is building really nifty carbines and rifles in 9,3x62 at a reasonable price. And there will always be factory ammunition and brass available. The X62 is an under 300yds world rifle, and close to the 375H&H power levels.

Rich
DRSS

Gee. Just a matter of time. Impossible to discuss a 35 caliber on AR without the 9.3X62 crowd injecting their "commercials."

Barstooler

why bother with a 9,3x62 when the 35 whelen is already a commonish factory round?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
why bother with a 9,3x62 when the 35 whelen is already a commonish factory round?

Easy, the 9.3 has a better selection of bullets, especially the heavy weights. You can get 9.3 bullets and factory loaded ammo up to 320 grs. Never seen a 358 bullet anywhere near that heavy.

I have a 350 rem Mag that almost never gets shot after I got a 9.3x62. The old German cartridge simply outperforms the 35 calibers hands down. Maybe that's why it's been around so long. It simply works well without a lot of flash.

"Had Winchester not introduced its .338 Magnum in 1958, the .358 Norma might now be one of our more popular cartridges. But, most hunters chose the American designed cartridge and allowed the Swedish cartridge to fade away into obsolescence. Eventually, the Norma.358 Magnum factory load was discontinued and, except among handloaders, it was a dead cartridge."

From: The Reload Bench

35 caliber bullets from 90 to 300 gr. No shortage of bullets. I haven't ever seen a 10 cent 366. SE makes weight. And .008 ain't all that much

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
"Had Winchester not introduced its .338 Magnum in 1958, the .358 Norma might now be one of our more popular cartridges."

From: The Reload Bench

If Norma had made it the 9.3mm Norma rather than the .358 Norma, I'm thinking it would be popular today.

IMO, they also should have gone with the 8mm Norma rather than the .308.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
No Mystery, its one of the best mediums there is .. and the writers that complained about recoil are sissies..

SISSIES my ass ! Just getting older and smarter and leaving all that Macho BULL SHIT behind. Patients you may arrive some day. roger

yeah, so SISSY if you can't take a hit from a 358 ... but, i guess, there's always tiddilywinks and shuffle board, if you need the less macho BS of not having a gun ... from someone that knows what recoil IS, and 28# aint recoil, i am indifferent between a 358 and a 30-06 ...

and if you think either kicks, perhaps its time for one of those senior cruises.... i heard they'll purree all your food for you

And the horse you rode in on. You certainly are kinda cocky being a number of states down stream.Kinda doubt if you would have shot your mouth off in person. roger

He's just messing with you roger.

All this sissy vs macho business reminds me of one of those porn videos one of my raunchy buddies emailed me.

This guy in the video was macho if you measured that trait by the length and caliber of his tool. The video was these naked young women running up and kicking him in the balls. Ouch - big time for most of us, but this guy took the hit from those dainty little naked feet over and over. The only evidence it hurt was after about the third time, his tool went limp.

so, roger, my point is that it ain't the caliber of the tool, or the ability to take a hit, because a guy that can do that may be a numb-nuts.

KB

It just did not look like a powerful cartridge when it came out. Most guys don't need anything bigger or more poweful then .30-06 and those that want to pick 7mmRM, .300WinMag, .338WinMag. Those that want something even bigger usually pick .375H&H or .458WinMag.
The .35 caliber is usually carried by serious hunters with great deal of experience.

Roger
Get over yourself. You started this little bitchfest, and you might consider backing away from it. And, frankly, if you think 30lbs of recoil makes a macho you are either inexperienced or a sissy, pick one. Being a couple states or a couple feet away from you won't change my opinion, but the macho intimation that you put on distance sure has me shaken in my boots, toughguy

What's your high horse today Jeffe? Would you call someone a sissy if they didn't subject themselve to 30 lb of recoil because they had a retna restoration after detachment, or because they once had a dislocated shoulder or a neck problem or some other physical issue that caused pain or harm or other possible injury from the recoil? I think you are being ornery.

KB

Kb
The gun writers that labeled it too hard a kicker had none of these. I, personally, have recovered from and AC level 5 separation and two surgeries in the last year, have a spinal fusion with apparatus, arthritis, and I can still shoot far bigger guns than this popgun. Roger decided to make an issue of it, from writers 50some years ago, and decided to call shooting actual guns as macho. You might go read the thread again as to who's having a midol day. I frankly don't feel like putting up with whiney crap today. I guess that's a menopause day, huh?

Me, thanks, I think that anyone whining about 30 lbs of recoil needs to be thought how to shoot

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Kb
The gun writers that labeled it too hard a kicker had none of these.

Me, thanks, I think that anyone whining about 30 lbs of recoil needs to be thought how to shoot

I'm not disagreeing with you about the 358 being relatively mild kicker, and that most folks can learn to deal with a lot more recoil than the 358 dishes out. I know from experience that I quickly adjusted to my 458 and enjoy taking it out for practice. My scope didn't adjust too well, and promptly broke. The rifle is at the gunshop now for a nice set of open sights. I don't have plans for anything heavier, but I know it's possible.

The mystery about the 358 isn't something that's difficult to understand for me. I've had a 35 Whelen for years, and just couldn't see the need for a 358 too. The 35 Whelen feeds better and fits a Mauser action better, and can be loaded down if need be to 358 ballistics.

I also have a 9.3x57, which would be good with bullets from 232gr to 286gr, and it also feeds perfect in a Mauser. I'm in agreement with the statment that the 308 does all that the 358 does, and more, and better. If I wanted something with more thump, it would be a lot more thump, not just a little bit.

I think you and roger have misunderstanding. Be nice and it will get better.

KB

The 358 Win seems to be suffering from several undeserved reputations. Agreed Vapo the 35 Whelen is great and matches the 308 MPBR so maybe the 35 whelen should be a sniper round

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Agreed Vapo the 35 Whelen is great and matches the 308 MPBR so maybe the 35 whelen should be a sniper round

Was just saying that the 35 whelen has a decent MPBR
The 35s just seem to get a bad rap as a rainbow trajectory round it seems.

All the cartrdges mentioned as an alternative to the 358 except the 308 lack something the 358 does extremy well. That is fit into a nice trim little Savage 99 lever gun.

I have in in 358, a pair of 308's (one of which is a Scout rifle) and a 250 Savage. One day I would love to take them on a safari for medium to small plains game and do a complete laver gun safari.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Not a huge mystery in the states. Americans really don't shoot much over 30 cal. If they need more power they usually go to a 30 magnum before going to a mid bore. The general belief is faster is better rather than bigger is better.

The only over 30 that seems to be somewhat popular is the 338 win Mag.

Hey Scott....did you notice....I stuck a dagger in the back of the .338 Federal while I was at it!

Yeah, you never miss an opportunity to bust my chops about the 338 Federal. You know what I like about you Vapodog?..............................................................................................not a damn thing.

Well Jeffe you are probably right on both counts; I'm an in experieced sissy. roger

At least you are willing to admit it!! We may upgrade you from sissy to to impact-challenged...

Rich

As they say in Kalifornia - where is the problem? Jeffe likes the big bores, and Bartsche likes the milder cartridges. Some of us like both, within a certain range. I kinda like um all between the 243 thru the 458WM, some more than others. And

I actually think the 358 is a fun and useful cartridge. It just has a narrow scope of usefulness to me that I haven't been willing to invest the money to own one. I always figured it would make a great camp gun for backpacking in Alaska. Make it as compact and light as possible, perhaps with a 16" barrel, loaded with some tough 250gr bullet, stoked with some faster burning powder, to minimize the fire ball, if rudely awakened by a brown bear during the night. Heck it would be better than a pistol any time.

I would consider one for that purpose, especially if I expected someone other than me might need to shoot it, such as a youngster or a woman. As it is, I don't have that expectation, so my camp and trail rifle is a compact, short, and light 458, which I am very comfortable with, but I wouldn't wish it upon someone unsuspecting, or naive, or "impact challanged". I consider it my emergency gun, so I see no need to be conservative about it, in such case. I found a partial box of 400gr Swifts in storage, and I intend to develop a load to 2200 - 2300 fps, as soon as I get it back from the gunsmith with the new sights.

Once, when I was doing the Alcan, I met a fellow in the Yukon who showed me his custom Sako short action 358 with a very short barrel, (Canada legal is 18" as I recall) and a fiberglass stock. It was his boat and mule packing and skidoo gun. He killed moose, wolves, black and brown bear, caribou - everything with that rifle. It was like holding a fast handling quail shotgun. It had open sights. I remember it well, and was impressed.

The 358 has a niche, and is a good cartridge.

KB

The thing about guns is that we go nuts when we see something of beauty and can always motivate why we have to have yet another caliber, even though we have at leasts six already. And if it is not for the caliber, then it is because the way the rifle was made or its features.

Warrior

Great info on the .358 Win. Boomie..

KB,
I like them ALL -- current centerfire caliber inventory is 223-550
.224
.257
.284
.308
.311
.323
.358
.375
.410
.416
.451
.458
.475
.510
.550

missing .243, .264, .274, .338, .423, and .620, at the moment ... though that's likely to get changed over the next couple months, again ..

I like them ALL... even 270, and shoot them all -- and untill one gets to about 50 ft/lb, my wife and kids (when they where little) shot them all -- my grandkids are up to 257, already ...


I

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
At least you are willing to admit it!! We may upgrade you from sissy to to impact-challenged...

Rich

Thank you IS. That's very big of you. I appreciate the jesture. roger

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KB,
I like them ALL -- current centerfire caliber inventory is 223-550
.224
.257
.284
.308
.311
.323
.358
.375
.410
.416
.451
.458
.475
.510
.550

missing .243, .264, .274, .338, .423, and .620, at the moment ... though that's likely to get changed over the next couple months, again ..

I like them ALL... even 270, and shoot them all ...

Here's my list:
6.5x55 (two)
7x57
7x64
7x65R Encore
280 (two)
7mm Mag
308 (four)
30-06
300 H&H
7.62x53R (.308) Encore
8x57 (two)
338WM
35 Whelen
9.3x57
9.3x62 (two)
9.3x74R Encore
9.3x338
375 H&H
458WM

My wish list: (Have all the parts, dies, brass, etc. - just waiting on gunsmiths)
6.5 Grendel (mini-Mauser)
6.5x47 Lapua (rebarrel a 308)
7mm-08 (rebarrel a 308)
308 (rebarrel a poor shooter)
7.65x53 Argentine (.311) Pac Nor barrel, FN action
8x60S
323 Hollis

I don't see any redundancy there.

Of all the calibers, the one at the moment that I like the least is the 7mm Mag. I haven't yet learned to like it, but I'm working on it. Went to the range yesterday with it, and still like the 7x57 better. It could go either way with the 7 mag. I'll give it some time.

As for the rest, it's hard to declare a favorite, however they speak for themselves because the one that I've had the longest, shot the most, and it shows the most wear, scratches, etc., is the 30-06 (Lilja SS barrel, FN action, McMillan classic stock, Black T). It's also traveled the most - from South Georgia to Kotzebue, and many places in between, including Texas, Colorado, Idaho, and Montana. Next most used is the 338WM.

KB