quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:
Hey Allen-when you get a minute please take and go over to the thread I started here on LR elk part 2. I've a few questions and am just curious to here about all the responders here elk experience.

Many thanks

Mark D

Allen this is the other question I asked you about your time hunting elk.

Mark D

And it's a question I've already answered several times.

If you want to know the answer read the entire string.

Or you can continue being a lazy snipe.

AllanD

Nope I think I have it now, you have no experience hunting elk. I wasn't a sniping just was trying to get a straight answer from you is all.


Thanks

Mark D

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:
Nope I think I have it now, you have no experience hunting elk. I wasn't a sniping just was trying to get a straight answer from you is all.


Thanks

Mark D

No you were trying to get a REDUNDANT straight answer because it was a question I'd already answered.

if you weren't such a lazy jerk you'd have read up and found I already said I didn't.

Oops, you already admitted you were lazy....

Your post is just to try to make a statement.
It was never about "seeking information"

It was about me giving you an answer you already had so you could be obnoxious.

AllanD

Allan's another internet expert who's only actual experience came perched on the shitter whilst reading Craig Boddington and a Speer reloading manual...

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Allan's another internet expert who's only actual experience came perched on the shitter whilst reading Craig Boddington and a Speer reloading manual...

EXPERT: Someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.

Self-appointed experts are even more obnoxious!
It's a word like "custom", used far too often to retain any meaningful definition.

The word is used when a more appropriate definition would be arrogance or delusions of grandeur. Sometimes "successful"
would be more appropriate. Even blind squirrels
can find nuts. After all, it is possible to have success without knowing why. Just look at
corporate america!

The only thing this thread proves is that we
gun lovers, who should be as thick as thieves,
(like politicians and anti-gun people) are only
antagonistic and rude.

I thank God it's only the internet, or there would be a lot more busted noses than now exist.

Don, your expanded version of my post is spot-on.

Montana, you are right!

I think energy and wind drift are more important than the exact cartridge for long range work. Trajectory for any cartridge at five hundred yards will require a good range finder and some adjustments due to wind and range. I'd pick two bullets with a high BC and construction in each caliber and compare the downrange wind drift and energy numbers.

In my opinion the 300 WM with a 26" barrel and a Barnes 180 BT bullet would be ideal. If you can handle more recoil you may consider an Ultra Mag. I would defiantely check into the actual velocity your going to get with one in a similar barrel length.

I find your characterizations as amusing.

you don't know me

And while mark is berating me for only having killed four deer with the particular load being discussed in the 25-06 forum he ignores the others who have used the 100gr bullet with identical results, and who decided to use the 100gr 257 bullet out of a 25-06 for the same reasons.

My contributions t this discussion were not about any experience killing elk it was about questioning the ballistic "science" some people were using to support their own choices and they were contradictory...

My comments were about hitting things, wind drift, retained energy. and I was not the one spewing hyperbole (bullshit)

assuming identical conditions two bullets with the same BC and MV should fly through the same piece of space at any given range, the fact that theysometimes don't is more likely the result of minute changes in wind between the muzzle and the target than from any other factor.

My qualifications were put into question because the questions I was asking weren't easily answered without people further contradicting themselves.

Just because my knowledge is theoretical in THIS rarified discussion of shooting elk at 500yards
(as it should be theoretical for anyone who claims to be a "sportsman") doesn't make me wrong. if it did any one of the many participants in the discussion could have tried to prove it.

I've shot enough woodchucks out to 500yards and
beyond to know how to hit things that I probably could hit an elk at that distance.
Would I try it? probably not. if a woodchuck moves or you mis-judge the wind or the range you miss, if you are shooting at an elk at the same distance.... would you want to wound an elk and have it run off.

Don't attack the messenger (me) respond to the message by answering my questions...

SHOW ME that I'm wrong... Ahh I see,.... you can't! So it goes to personal attacks....
typical internet bullshit.

Brad,
For the record, I don't have any idea where my Speer manual is at the moment, but it isn't in my "porcelain library".
That space is proudly occupied by a duplicate copy of the #5 Nosler manual But I don't look at it as much as you'd think because I've pretty much memorized the sectons on the calibers I reload for.

Find that hard to believe? I also memorized the entire Question pool for the FCC exams I took and passed a couple of years ago.

And who the hell is Craig Boddington? I really don't know!
Just guessing here, Is he a magazine writer?
If he doesn't write for Handloader I'd probably miss it.

Stop trying to insult me (you are wasting your time and showing yourself to be petty snipe along with Mark) and answer some of the questions I've asked.

Read my signature line and understand to the marrow of your bones that I mean exactly that, I try to provoke people into thinking. however some people aren't up to the challenge and only resort to personal attacks.

Hey, My uncle, my father's youngest brother is a Vietnam Vet
he served three tours in the air cav. he got two bronze stars and a silver star. but when he starts talking about rifle calibers using his combat experience as justification for his opinion my eyes glaze over.
My uncle still thinks the US machine guns and the AK47 take the same cartridge because both are 7.62...
My Great uncle insisted to his grave that the british enfield rifle in WW1 used a 30-30 cartridge.

Many times in my life I've found myself surrounded by experienced "experts" who IMO couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions moulded into the underside of the sole...

What works for YOU may actually work, I can't and won't argue that, because I wasn't there when you did it.
what I'm arguing now and I've been arguing all along is what you may believe are the reasons WHY it worked for you have a serious chance of being wrong.

Look at it this way
you take a shot and you miss and everyone on earth would naturally be inclined to ask; "why did I miss?"

But when they shoot and hit they damned sure don't ask; "Why did I hit?", like they have a god given expectation of success...
it's natural to not question success....
I think everyone should...

Most of the time when you self-examine that way the answer will be "Because I did everything right".... But not always....

AllanD

quote:

In my opinion the 300 WM with a 26" barrel and a Barnes 180 BT bullet would be ideal. If you can handle more recoil you may consider an Ultra Mag. I would defiantely check into the actual velocity your going to get with one in a similar barrel length

I have two 300ultramags that average right around 3380fps with the barnes 180gr tsx.

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:

I have two 300ultramags that average right around 3380fps with the barnes 180gr tsx.

What load are you shooting? I'm about to purchase a Sendero II in 300 UM.

I'd like to make a comment that many folks have heard before:

Keeping in mind, bullet construction as a secondary, one should hunt with the largest caliber that one can accurately shoot and be comfortable with.

Does it really matter, when one fella has confidence in his 6.5mm-06 with a 130 gr. Barnes TSX verses someone like me that has confidence in a larger caliber, and has no problem resting a .416 Rigby on a large fallen pine or my Harris bi-pod for a PRONE shot at extended range (the CZ's set trigger is a GREAT help, BTW!!! ) ?

To each his own.

My dad borrowed my light weight "deer rifle", a 21" barrelled VZ-24 in .35 Whelen that I built shooting a 225 gr. X, since his largest caliber was a .30-06 in his BAR. Wouldn't his .30-06 be enough gun? Sure it would! But my dad had more MENTAL faith in my .35 Whelen, which helped him drop a cow elk in her tracks at 280 yards according to the guide.

Hmmmmmmm, and the Whelen is supposedly a short range cartridge like the .308 Win is, but doesn't the .308 Win consistently do extremely well at Palma or F-Class shooting.

I do agree that we SHOULD look at ballistic charts, and compare energy tables at the "expected maximum range" (though I personally put more stock in Taylor's formula than Ft.-Lbs. of energy) to try and take game animals ETHICALLY, HOWEVER like someone mentioned earlier, as long as a .308 Win bullet at 500 yards lands in the "X-ring" and exits, providing two carefully placed bleed holes; that will take down a game animal. One might have to do some tracking, but the animal WILL eventually go down.

Now, I would not use the same analogy for anything that is going to BITE or CHARGE, just to clarify!

Can't we all just go hunting and stop on each other's parade?!?

I have limited elk hunting experience but an acquaintance has an immediate family member who is an outfitter. He is a part-time guide and takes elk yearly on this ranch.

He asked me to go this year and we were talking about the elk he's taken in the past. He is an older distinguished marksman and uses a well worn pre-64 '06 w/ a steel buttplate shooting a 180gr bullet. I noticed a pattern on his long distance shots where the elk took fatal hits yet covered long distances before they expired.

Based on my rookie observation of his vast experience, I'd think a 338WM shooting a 210PT would be a good choice.

quote:

What load are you shooting? I'm about to purchase a Sendero II in 300 UM.

Rifle #1 88gr of r-25 fed 215 primer

rifle #2 93gr of r-25 fed 215 primer


Yes it is strange that there is 5 gr difference and that the velocities are the same.However the powder is two different lots and the barrels are by different manufacturers with one having a longer throat.

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:

quote:

What load are you shooting? I'm about to purchase a Sendero II in 300 UM.

Rifle #1 88gr of r-25 fed 215 primer

rifle #2 93gr of r-25 fed 215 primer


Yes it is strange that there is 5 gr difference and that the velocities are the same.However the powder is two different lots and the barrels are by different manufacturers with one having a longer throat.

Thanks for the info, though I will probably use RL-22 since I still have almost 15 lbs. of it.

I like the 300 RUM. Got one in a 700 LSS for a good price. They are all pretty close but it's nice to have a little more in bragging rights. Find some shooting freinds and test their rifles and go with what you like.

Killed a caribou once at 420 yards with one shot from a .308 Norma. So I see no reason why one would have to go much bigger than a .300 Weatherby, an 8mm Rem. Mag., or the .340 Weatherby. I think .30/378's would wear out barrels too quick. I have heard of some cartridges that ruined barrels so fast that it was difficult to develop a good load before the bore was kaput.......

I just happened to purchase a 338RUM Sendero a few years ago and have found to be a wonderful rifle. The recoil of the Sendero registers below that of my 300Wby according to my shoulder... guess the extra weight helps that situation. Though I have never hunted elk, if I was presented with the conditions described in the open inquiry, I would choose my Sendero from the rack. Not trying to say that there arent other choices out there that will perform splendidly; the 338 RUM Sendero just happens to be the best rifle I have used that fits this scenario. It is a gem of a rifle and I plan on enjoying it for many more years; God willing.

The 8mm Rem mag makes great sense as does the 8x68S, with 180 and 200 grain TSX's available and 180 ballistic tips and 200 partitions. 200 accubonds or the 220 gameking and 250 woodleigh's it's a serious contender that .323" bore. Should kick enough to satisfy the masochists too. Maybe 8mm Jarrett? Heck the .325WSM too.

I'm not a huge bullet fan, but weight and BC resist drift better in the wind, and it's windy out here The 8's and .338's will out perform the 7's and .30's in this fashion.

quote:

Originally posted by HondoLane:
I just happened to purchase a 338RUM Sendero a few years ago and have found to be a wonderful rifle. The recoil of the Sendero registers below that of my 300Wby according to my shoulder... guess the extra weight helps that situation. Though I have never hunted elk, if I was presented with the conditions described in the open inquiry, I would choose my Sendero from the rack. Not trying to say that there arent other choices out there that will perform splendidly; the 338 RUM Sendero just happens to be the best rifle I have used that fits this scenario. It is a gem of a rifle and I plan on enjoying it for many more years; God willing.

Hondo:

Trust me, you don't want to lug a Sendero up the elk mountains.

I see this thread took on a life of it's own the past few months.

Anyway. An UPDATE. Purchased a .300 Win Mag Sendero, fitted a 4.5-14X Zeiss, then went out and shot it. With the cheapest 180 gr RP Core-Lok's it shot well undera ninch at 100 yds as I sighted in and broke in the barrel.

With 180 NP handloads it's a solid 1/2" rifle at 100 and 1" at 200 yds. And thats with my tired old eyes as well as rotator cup injury, behind the stock. So it probably will do better with a real marksman behind the stock.

Have to say I was very impressed with the Zeiss optics. EXTREMELY clear and the side focus knob allows you to focus for 100% clarity at any range.

The owner flies in on Wed. Now to see how he likes lugging it up hill and dale for a week.Then again I caried 10 1/2# .375 H&H for several years as my elk gun up and down the same hills.

FN in MT

Well personally, I dont feel the extra 1-3 pounds of weight is as much of a detriment as having a bantam weight rifle chambered in a cartridge that I would be willing to shoot an elk at 500yards with. I takes extra steps to ensure that the extra weight doesnt bother me; such as carrying the extra weight on me when I do my weekly hikes the the 2000-3000 foot elevations we have here in the Blue Ridge. I am aware that the Blue Ridge are not the Rockies. The Sendero can be a load for some people, but it has graced my hands on many forays and will continue to do so. What I am trying say is that weight is subjective and can be overcome through physical fitness and experience. It seems to me, it would take alot of experience at the range to shoot a drum your shoulder, slap your cheek light weight magnum effectively. I decided to go the other way and suffer a little more heft, but less punishment. It is a pleasure to take thhe 338RUM outside and plink off a few boxes of ammo. I believe that too many ppl that by featherweight magnums dont practice with them near often enough. I know I wouldnt want to practice with such beasts. Some individuals can, some actually might enjoy that abuse, but I dont. Everything in life is a trade off I just choose to make mine somewhere other than the lightweight rifle crowd. Congratualations on the new addition FN in MT. May your Sendero give you as much pleasure for years to come as mine has given me.

Elk take 1,800 ft. lbs. energy at the target for a clean kill. The rest is just math.

At distance I'd opt for lighter bullets and flatter trajectory, but heaps of energy/velocity.

This because range is difficult to estimate in open country, and you need to have a broad "point blank" depth of field in your trajectory -- the depth of range a bullet will striked in the "kill zone" which on an elk is about 12" max.

-- Medium bore rifles, .308/.338 cal, and "fast" on the velocity end. This so you can pare down the bullet to about 160 gr. and still get the ft/lbs energy sufficient to drop the game in a humane shot.

.45-70,

Then HOW the heck did I kill that bull four years ago with a measly .44 mag shooting a 240 gr slug at a mere 1250 fps?? Lousy trajectory. Heavy for caliber bullet. No where near 1800 ft lbs.

Maybe PROPERLY PLACING the slug to pop both lungs may have helped??

FN in MT

FN: I know where there is a 358 STA wth Shilen barrel and Mcmillan stock on 700 BDL action. 600 bucks. You cant get the barrel on your action for that. No I don't own it, so don't know how it shoots, but it should be good. Call Green Mountain Guns, Lakewood Co. No I don't work there. I just want somebody to buy the thing so I don't. This would be the ultimate LR elk rifle, if you can handle the pounding. 225 grains at over 3k. I know a 160 NP or TSX out of a 7 mm at 3k plus will kill elk as far as you care to shoot, but I like big bullets and big holes. Killed 7 elk with a 375, none with my 7 Rem mag, but may switch back this year with 160 Noslers. The 375 is getting heavy. Good luck.

I hope I don't upset anybody here, but here it goes anyway: your friend should use a long range rifle designed to reach out there and smack big game real hard. That leaves you with the .50BMG, .338-378, .338RUM, or a .338 Lapua.

Nobody has to agree with me, of course

quote:

Originally posted by HondoLane:
Well personally, I dont feel the extra 1-3 pounds of weight is as much of a detriment as having a bantam weight rifle chambered in a cartridge that I would be willing to shoot an elk at 500yards with. I takes extra steps to ensure that the extra weight doesnt bother me; such as carrying the extra weight on me when I do my weekly hikes the the 2000-3000 foot elevations we have here in the Blue Ridge. I am aware that the Blue Ridge are not the Rockies. The Sendero can be a load for some people, but it has graced my hands on many forays and will continue to do so. What I am trying say is that weight is subjective and can be overcome through physical fitness and experience. It seems to me, it would take alot of experience at the range to shoot a drum your shoulder, slap your cheek light weight magnum effectively. I decided to go the other way and suffer a little more heft, but less punishment. It is a pleasure to take thhe 338RUM outside and plink off a few boxes of ammo. I believe that too many ppl that by featherweight magnums dont practice with them near often enough. I know I wouldnt want to practice with such beasts. Some individuals can, some actually might enjoy that abuse, but I dont. Everything in life is a trade off I just choose to make mine somewhere other than the lightweight rifle crowd. Congratualations on the new addition FN in MT. May your Sendero give you as much pleasure for years to come as mine has given me.

You ever actually hunted elk on your legs in the Rockies, knee deep in snow on a 30-40 degree slope in the middle of a climb that will give you 1,500 vertical feet of gain in under 3/4 mile?

The Rockies aren't the Blue Ridge I assure you. An 8lb rifle is certainly no burden but a Sendero? Forget it...

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
Elk take 1,800 ft. lbs. energy at the target for a clean kill. The rest is just math.

LOL, I didn't know Yogi Berra was an elk hunter!

1800 ft lbs huh? What hat was that pulled out of?

Wow, what a thread, started reading last night and fell asleep....

First I personally never hunted Elk. Have a good friend who's been an outfitter for 20 years. He swears by the 300 Win Mag or 300 Wby Mag for elk. He likes the bigger hole they leave, more blood to track wounded animals. He guides for hunters that are exceptional hunters/shooters and of course the city slicker who decided hunting elk sounded like a great idea. Even had a 400#+ German citizen die on one hunt a couple of years ago. Fella simply couldn't hack the mountains around Cloudcroft NM.

Getting back to which gun I believe confidence and ability in what you're shooting is the most important factor. If you know your gun and can put the bullet where it needs to go then either the 7 or 300 will work just fine. I hunted whitetails for 30+ years with the 7 mag, recently dropped to the 270 Win and it works wonders. I'm not shooting as far and wouldn't even attempt to shoot as far with the 270 but it is lighter and easier to carry, etc. As long as the shot is there it works just fine.

I also have a 300 Ultra and so far it's the biggest piece of junk I've seen. It's the 700 Rocky Mountain Elk gun and with factory ammo will do at least a 4" group at 100 yards... It's going back to the range tomorrow in a new stock. The tupperware stock is in the closet and a regular BDL stock is on it now. Not sure if that was the problem but I suspect we'll know more tomorrow. It is a monster but if it can't hit the target it's just so much noise.

Noted that FN went with the Zeiss scope. They have come a long way, imo. I bought one of the first 4-14s a few years back and didn't care for it. Been seeing a lot of positive posts on the different boards the last couple of years and decided to give one a try. Picked up the 4-14x50 for a Winchester model 70 and it is really nice. I checked the view in extremely low light with some of my Swarovskis and found it is as good if not better than some of them and we're talking about the 30 mm tube model Swarovskis. A few years ago I had a Diavari that wouldn't touch the Swarovskis in low light. I will be considering more 4-14 Conquest in the future. Field of view and picture blows away a similar Leupold. Leupolds are light and clear but it sure would be nice if they could figure out a way to have a greater field of view at 100 yards and beyond. The B&C is IMO one of the best reticles and no doubt a knock off of the TDS Plex. Both are clean and efficient without a lot of clutter. Tried a Nightforce a few years back and it was gone after one trip to the range. Might as well have tried shooting through a maze with all the crap in the picture.

Off to get packed up for a mule deer hunt in New Mexico. The 270 is getting the call for walking with a 300 Wby going along to use after my knees quit working. Find a ridge and camp out.

JMHO

Well better late than never I guess ?.

NO I didn't read all the post either ; TO DAM MANY !.
I do see that some of you are Elk hunters and some not .

original post was ;
My NJ Cousin wants to build a LR elk rifle for elk out to 500 yds. We hunt our elk in very open country with the hunting more like antelope than elk. The average shots here are in the LONG 300 yd range. With many opportunities in the 400-500 yd area.
He is a good shooter, has taken a few out to 350 yds+ and is cool under fire.

Ok Elk like Deer vary in size , so are we looking to smack that 400 B&C ?. Always !!.

The above person " Ray " has the right Idea in a 338/378 or 338 ultra mag . I would have to agree a 200 -250 grainer running 2600-3000 FPS would be the ticket for a " Humane Kill " in excess of 350 Yd. . I dislike chasing wounded animals through the brush or tracking at Dusk !.

I know we all have dropped one thing or another at 6 zillon Yd. . So impress me at what you've missed at 400 yd. ?.

I have a friend who has shot more dam Mule deer than ten hunters combined , until 6 years ago he didn't know what 200 Yd. really was !. He finally purchased a laser ranging optic .

He's an experienced hunter 45 years of it , hunted all over . Rifle , black powder , Bow . Still gets Buck fever so bad I've seen him Miss several times at all ranges . He also practices a LOT !. He lives for Hunting seasons , in several states !.

Comes down to a simple explanation . Bring enough gun for the fight !. Because in the perfect world a 22-250 might do the job , but then again we don't live in the perfect world !.

Shoot Straight Know Your target . ...

7mm Mag has it's Fan's.. I'm one of them.. If I'm go'in long the 7 is just not Lucky..It's a Fact..
AK

One vote for 300 weatherby.

A 30/06 won't work huh?

You might want to look at a 338 Lapua. You can still find the Sako 995 models on gunbroker. I shoot 100 grains of H1000 and it gives me a pretty consistent 3220fps with a Barnes TSX. I use Lapua Brass and 215 Federal Match Primers.

Sighted in a 300 yards you are 2.9" high at 100
3.8" high at 200
0 at 300
9" low at 400 yards
and 24.5" low at 500 with 2323 lb. feet of energy at that range.

I would worry more about making sure the elk did not smell me and get a little closer, but that is for a different thread.

I have a rifle that I believe would fit the criteria of this thread. It's a tuned up M70 in 300Wby, wearing a 3.5-10x V3 scope with B&C reticle. I'm about to head out for a plains deer hunt and it's coming along. I've had several months to practice with the reticle and find it to be spot on with the various crosswires...300yds on main duplex, then 400yds for the next and 500yds for the last one. A 180gr TSX starting @ 3200fps makes an elk pretty dead from close up to far away when you hit him in the boiler room.

I think 500 yds is a HELL of a long shot; and I used to shoot competitively. under hunting conditions, even 300 yds is a very long shot.
IF you have practised doping the wind, have a laser range finder, and considered altitude, temp, etc; then you will have no difficulty using a 338 lapua in Sako TRG-S (about $700) or Sako TRG (about 4000, new); Both are almost equal in accuracy. The TRG-S is actually a steal; it uses the TRGS action and match barrel with a sporter type stock, for 1/4 of the money.
I have one in 30-378, one in 338 lapua, both shoot <1" groups from a bench rest undr ideal conditions. the lapua is a better choice because of the extremely consistent brass available from lapua, and the excellent SD of the many available bullets.
BUT its vital that the shooter 1) know his limitations and 2) be up to the task

Heh, what? Sorry, fell asleep; what was the question. . . . . ??

Where I hunt elk the country can vary alot from brushy draws to very open field types. The animals are pressured hard and shot at quite a bit by the locals. I use any of 3 different rifles. I use 338 win mag (225 gr @ 2850 fps) when I anticipate spending alot of time in brushy draws where it would be very hard to find a shot exceeding 300 yds. If I may see a little of all conditions I carry a 300 ultra (200 gr AB @3150 fps) If I plan on sitting over a large open expanse then I tote my 7 rum w (140 AB @3520 or 150 partition @3450fps). My thinking is that during the season the animals always seem nervous and figidty and won't hardly stand still in the open during daylight hours so you need to be able to shoot quickly. (not enough time to be tinkering with the range finder as you watch the elk mill around deciding which direction they are going to run 10 miles this time.) I feel that the cartridge that delivers adequate energy/bullet frontal area to kill an elk quickly and has the furthest MAXIMUM point blank range is the best. Be able to hold on hair not air. In other words shoot the flattest shooting SOB you can get your hands on. On my budget the rums deliver the most bang for the buck. ie-30/378 etc. That said, so far my furthest bull kill is 300 yds. So all I really need is a 30'06! What fun is that? I think that being able to shoot accurately at 500 yds is very important. I wouldn't shoot at animals over 450 yds or what looks to be that with any of my rifles because I don't practice at 500plus yards enough and don't have the confidence needed to make the shot with regularity. I am playing with a BDC reticle on the 300 rum that may change that however. Gotta have the time to lazer the range though in order to be able to attempt the shot. Reading thru this thread I believe most of the cartridges mentioned will do just fine. If we are to split hairs on performance then there is some difference, just not a huge amount. pick your own poison. Just my humble opinion.

300 rum

You've got a few options. In the 7mm size, I'd look into a Weatherby, Dakota, or STW (RUM is a bit too overbore IMO) if you want something with a little more pop than a Remington Magnum. Really, the same thing applies in the .300 size too - Weatherby, Dakota, and RUM are good choices.

You're really not going to go wrong with any of them, but I would generally go to a 175gr. bullet in the 7mm size for a little extra oomph at 500 yards. 180gr. bullets in the .300's aren't bad, but I prefer the higher BC and SD of a 200gr. pill. Any way you cut it, those rounds should hit with a shitload of energy at 500 yards.