30-06 Springfield gets my vote.

30-06 and the .375 H&H they were the foundation for many to come

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

You left out the 8X57IS.

True the 8X57 was around before the 20th century, but it was not the IS version.

Just as the 30/03 was not the same as the 30/06.

All of those .473" head cartridges owe there heritage to the 8X57.

What he saya +1.

The fact is that the 7x57 because of ALL its derivatives (by various "routes" some direct some round about) - 6mm Remington, 257 Roberts, 8x57 and the lengthened American 30-03 and 30-06 is probably the greatest single rifle cartridge EVER.

The 8X57 predates the 7X57 by 5 years.

The 8X57 was developed in 1888 for the Gewehr 1888 & was designated the 8X57I (Infanterie). In 1905 it was developed W/a spitzer bullet & designated the 8X57IS (Infanterie Spitz). this is a similar scenerio to the 30-03 later being loaded W/a lighter, spitzer bullet & re-named 30-06. This developement was in direct response to the superior Mv of the 8X57IS cartridge adopted by the German military in 1905.

So, not only was the 1903 Springfield a licensed copy of the '98 mauser, the venerable 30-06 was also a copy cat of the 8X57IS.

The 7X57 was developed in 1892 by Paul Mauser & adopted in 1893 by Spain in the '93 "Spanish" Mauser.

So, all .473" head based cartridges including the 7X57, 30-06, 308 Win, 243 Win, 270 Win, etc, etc, owe their heritage to the 8X57 (I) cartridge.

Therefore, any vote for these cartridges is a vote for the 8X57 by proxy.

I didn't make this list. I used the list that the author of the article I mentioned used. Since I used the list that the author of the article used, I couldn't have made a list based on rifles I own. In fact, I only own four of the calibers listed.

I was pretty sure that the majority (but certainly not all) would agree that the 30-06 was the greatest cartridge introduced in the 20th Century, but I was really curious as to which one would be picked as the second greatest. I chose the .375 H&H as the second greatest cartridge introduced in the 20th Century (1900-1999), even though I don't own one.

I, too, am surprised that the .223 isn't on the author's list. Could it be because he considers it an offshoot of its predecessor the .222 Rem, which is on the list? I din't feel qualified to come up with a list of the top dozen or so calibers introduced in the 20th Century, so I simply went with what the author of the article listed.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

Just my 2c

I think there is some truth in what heaven knows is saying. roger

I don't agree. Top two in my book are either the 30-06 or 308, and the 338. Anything outside of Africa with those two. I prefer the 308 over the 30-06, but if picking the most significant regardless of my preference, I suppose it is the 30-06.KB[/QUOTE]
My vote was for the 06 & .338 BUT the .308??? Golleee Kabley First disappointing post I've seen from you. My world is shaken. roger

Sorry roger/bartsche, I like the 308 better because I'm more comfortable with a shorter barrel with the 308. Short action / 20" barrel makes a nice handy rifle. I just sent off the latest stainless 308 Ruger with a PacNor 12" twist barrel to have it dark Gray T coated - to get the shine off. I found out that Ruger & PacNor stainless metal will rust from salt water, and besides, the coating looks good. The range tests produced very small groups with the Nosler AB 165gr.

Don't fret, as a go-to standby I have a FN custom Mauser in 30-06 that shoots 168gr TTSX bullets into tiny groups.

OK, you're right, I can't decide which I like best. I wrote it, but didn't even convince myself which cartridge I like better. Darn good thing I have both.

KB

While I am not a fan of the 30-06/308 or the 270, under normal hunting situations, with quality 150 grain bullets, nothing shot with any of these 3 cartridges is goiong to be able tyo tell you what it was killed with, nor would the hunter be able to discern any real tangible difference.

8x57. Even though it predates the rest. Then 7x64.
Then the 30-03. Then 308. Then 30-06

I had a bad attitude about the 270 for years, and can't remember why. Then I remembered that of the two or three I've owned, all were nice to shoot and very accurate. I bought a CZ in 270 for a Texan friend, dies bullets and brass too, so I could swap it to him for the Ruger in 257 Roberts given two years ago, that wouldn't shoot accurately. The range tests of the CZ 270 were very satiafactory, and my buddy says he likes the rifle very well. I had no trouble talking him out of the 257, dies and brass, when I was in Texas, and I've already sold them.

Now I think the 270 is great, but not in the top ten.

I like the 7x64 very much, mostly because it's the first 7mm that I've found that thrives on 175gr bullets, and especially seems to like the 175gr Sierra BT. Fast twist and long throat.

I have to agree about the 8x57. Although not introduced in the 20th century, it just has to be the most significant rimless/smokeless cartridge ever.

KB

Except for the 220 Swift & 6mm PPC the rest are all based on either the 8X57 or the 375 H&H.

What! No 9,3x62
.30-06 and .375H&H it is then...

thats his opinion. I pick the 7.9x57MM.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
thats his opinion. I pick the 7.9x57MM.

Ain't that real close to the 8X57?

One point about the 8mm Mauser- it predated the 20th century, as did the 7mm Mauser- so they are out just from that.

As for the voting, what are the criteria? Cartridges sold? utility? hunting? Military use? Given this is AR, I decided hunting would be my criteria.

I had to vote .375 first because of its ability to take anything on the planet cleanly. When you include african and asian hunting for bigger animals, its really the only choice here. Sure, for what hunting I do in the states I would consider the .30-06 the #1, but we have to work on the US parochialism.

Really, 5 of the 12 are functionally identical with .30-06, .270, .300, .308 and 7mm all being at the same "north american big game" niche. One could throw the .243 in on the light end, and the .338 on the heavy end and make it 7 of 12 all fulfill the same role.

The .220, .222, and kind of the .243 are varmint guns. Really a pretty small subset of shooters use these, although they do shoot a lot more rounds.

The .458 was so plagued with reliability issues early on, I'm not sure how it made this list of "bests" while for a time it was the american go-to african caliber, that's a really small subset of guns.

The 6mm PPC, for all its ingenuity is just a bench rest cartridge. it is essentially a nonentity in worldwide usage, and only would make a list if you are a hardcore benchrest guy, of which there are what, 1000 worldwide? Just because Simpson likes that game doesn't mean its of any great shakes for importance worldwide (competition only equipment is always too specialized for general use) Can it play a role like the .243, sure, but it doesn't.

I chose the 222. The 30-06 is a great cartridge, but it is very similar to the 8x57. The 222 was truly different and spawned a whole family of widely used cartridges.

I've never considered the .30-06 to be a great cartridge. Poplular, yes, but simply because it was the surplus cartridge of the largest military force in the world for nearly 50 years.

It's actual record might surprise a lot of folks:

Originally designed around a heavy round nose bullet, it was changed to a 150 gr. spitzer to compete with European cartridges.

The army was not impressed with its effectiveness in WWI and changed it to a 174 gr spitzer shortly after.

In the late 20's it was considered obsolete, and the M1 Garand was developed around a more efficient 7mm, known as .276 Pederson. After the M1 was adopted in 1931 in 7mm, Gen. McArthur ordered that the .30-06 remain the standard small arms cartridge, to simplify logistics.

When the M1 Garand couldn't be adapted to the 174 gr cartridge, the .30-06 was changed back to the same 150 gr cartridge that was deemed inferior during the first World War.

So, basically, the .30-06 would have been dead in the water in 1931, had it not been for one General's insistence that logistics were more important than ballistics.

I choose the .223, because it's the greatest deer cartridge ever developed, and given the right bullet and "superb shot placement", is good to take anything on the face of the earth.
Only the less competent would choose anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:

"*****So, basically, the .30-06 would have been dead in the water in 1931, had it not been for one General's insistence that logistics were more important than ballistics."

Your historic preamble may be dead nuts but your conclusion IMHO is not correct. The 06 had a large following prior to the Garand. With the release of the surplus 03s, 03-A3s and 1917 Enfields it continued to be the American Hunters high power favorite of the 20th century bar none. roger

300 weatherby mag!

Question for all who voted in this thread.

The reason for my question is because of the final outcome of the poll. It appears that the 30-06 is the caliber that most would say is the greatest. Next is the .375 H&H. My question concerning the 2nd place caliber is not ment as just a mouthy disagreement, but one of amazment kinda.

I assumed that the question was targeting sporting arms, used primarily in North America, and Africa, and tactical weapons. I can certainly agree that for dangerous game, I would select a large caliber magnum. Question, how many of the folks responding to this poll have ever shot a .375 H&H, or own one? How many folks participating in this poll have used one to hunt in North America?

I chose the 30-06 and the 308 because of the practical use. I could have placed the 243, or 223 as my second very easily.

Is the .375 H&H way more popular today than I thought, or were a lot of these votes based on nostalia, and stories?

I may have to find one to shoot. I have never shot one, and have only seen them in 10% of the gun stores I have been in.

Again, not slamming the .375 H&H, just curious, and lack the exposure to this obviously great caliber.

Ive never owned or shot a 375 H&H, and my votes for the 06 and 222 were based on practical use hunting (30-06), target shooting and cartrige design (222).

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I choose the .223, because it's the greatest deer cartridge ever developed, and given the right bullet and "superb shot placement", is good to take anything on the face of the earth.
Only the less competent would choose anything else.

Spoken like a true blooded TN mountain wood hick poacher.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I went 375 H&H, then 30-06. H&H was number one because you can hunt anything with it.

Agreed.

Naaaaw, the wood hick poachers in WV prefer the Hornet.

The .30-06, by any rational measurement.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I went 375 H&H, then 30-06. H&H was number one because you can hunt anything with it.

Agreed.

I understand that we can use it to hunt anything, but can anyone shoot it? How many people can't shoot a gun of 8 or 9 lbs that recoil like a 3 1/2" mag 12 gauge. Don't know what the foot pounds of recoil are, but it has to be substantial. Sounds like a good opportunity for terrible shot placement for the general shooting public.

I think it would be a great round for the advanced hunter, and someone that will be hunting dangerous game, but I think it's limits are due to shooter capability, and the practical need for shooting heavy bullets.

If the question were, if you could only have one caliber for hunting all game in North America, and Africa, then I would certainly have a different opinion.

"The 20th Century's Top Rifle Cartridge"

I stand by the 30-06, and the .308

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by ColeK:
Why isn't the .223 Rem not on that list?

Because apparantly the poll is about useful hunting cartridges, and when the 223 is matched against any of the other cartridges on the list, it is practically useless in comparison.

It never has and never will belong on any list of legitimate big game cartridges.

KB

But 220 Swift and 222 Remington, which are on the list, do 'belong'?

I think I'd have to agree that game changers ought to be given higher priority than others.

May be difficult to remember, but there was little around at the time that truly had the unusually capable and general characteristics of the 30-06 at the time. Same can be said of the .375 H&H and the .338 Win Mag.

Given their acceptance for their niches and the size of their user populations over the years, I'd have to go with them in that order.

Why do I leave out the .270 Win? Probably because I've just not been overly impressed by its effectiveness at impact.

quote:

Originally posted by tc98:
Question for all who voted in this thread.

I assumed that the question was targeting sporting arms, used primarily in North America, and Africa, and tactical weapons. I can certainly agree that for dangerous game, I would select a large caliber magnum. Question, how many of the folks responding to this poll have ever shot a .375 H&H, or own one? How many folks participating in this poll have used one to hunt in North America?

Again, not slamming the .375 H&H, just curious, and lack the exposure to this obviously great caliber.

tc98, I'm not sure if you read my previous post but unfortunately you will never get a scientific bare fact result from this type of voting. But what you will get, is what type of gun the voter is using (at least for the majority of returns). And if it not listed (the voters cartridge), the voter will argue it merits for inclusion. The fact is (all data has been in for years) and without debate, the .308 is overwhelmingly the most significant cartridge period. It's abilities, uses and accomplishments stand in a class all by itself. For a hunting cartridge I always heard the mighty 30-30 was the king of the woods. I'll leave it as it is but will offer the fact that the .308 is very effective in those same woods.

Even though it could have been done better, this poll has turned out to be more interesting than I ever anticipated. I have really enjoyed the various opinions about these and other cartridges introduced in the 20th Century. Thanks to all who have and will participate.

The '06 was easy.

#2, toughie. I voted for the 220 Swift. More Americans hunt varmints than anything (with the exception of white tail deer) these days. The Swift ushered in a whole new game. Fast center fires for varminting.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:

"*****So, basically, the .30-06 would have been dead in the water in 1931, had it not been for one General's insistence that logistics were more important than ballistics."

Your historic preamble may be dead nuts but your conclusion IMHO is not correct. The 06 had a large following prior to the Garand. With the release of the surplus 03s, 03-A3s and 1917 Enfields it continued to be the American Hunters high power favorite of the 20th century bar none. roger

Not necessarily. The change to the .276 Perderson would have occurred in 1931, and all the 03's and 1917's still in inventory would most likely have been rebarreled to it shortly afterwards. Since Winchester already had the .270 in production, that would probably have have become the premier hunting cartridge until the release of surplus rifles after WWII.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Naaaaw, the wood hick poachers in WV prefer the Hornet.

Not since the advent of the 17 HMR...

quote:

I understand that we can use it to hunt anything, but can anyone shoot it? How many people can't shoot a gun of 8 or 9 lbs that recoil like a 3 1/2" mag 12 gauge. Don't know what the foot pounds of recoil are, but it has to be substantial. Sounds like a good opportunity for terrible shot placement for the general shooting public.

I think it would be a great round for the advanced hunter, and someone that will be hunting dangerous game, but I think it's limits are due to shooter capability, and the practical need for shooting heavy bullets.

If the question were, if you could only have one caliber for hunting all game in North America, and Africa, then I would certainly have a different opinion.

"The 20th Century's Top Rifle Cartridge"

I stand by the 30-06, and the .308

tc98, your ignorance is only exceeded by your stupidity, the 375 H&H does not recoil as bad as you seem to think.

Have YOU ever shot one?

I regularly use my 375 to hunt whitetail deer and coyotes and feral hogs in Texas, have killed elk in Colorado and a Musk Ox in northern Canada with it.

I am not an "Advanced" hunter, you have a total misconception about the 375 and all I can believe is that is because you have NO actual experience with the round.

quote:

Originally posted by tc98:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I went 375 H&H, then 30-06. H&H was number one because you can hunt anything with it.

Agreed.

I understand that we can use it to hunt anything, but can anyone shoot it? How many people can't shoot a gun of 8 or 9 lbs that recoil like a 3 1/2" mag 12 gauge. Don't know what the foot pounds of recoil are, but it has to be substantial. Sounds like a good opportunity for terrible shot placement for the general shooting public.

I think it would be a great round for the advanced hunter, and someone that will be hunting dangerous game, but I think it's limits are due to shooter capability, and the practical need for shooting heavy bullets.

If the question were, if you could only have one caliber for hunting all game in North America, and Africa, then I would certainly have a different opinion.

"The 20th Century's Top Rifle Cartridge"

I stand by the 30-06, and the .308

the 375 doesn't kick much ... nor does a 12ga

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
So, not only was the 1903 Springfield a licensed copy of the '98 mauser,

unlicensed use of stripper loading ... it was NEVER licensed, a fee was paid for patent infringement. these are not the same things as a licensed copy

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I understand that we can use it to hunt anything, but can anyone shoot it? How many people can't shoot a gun of 8 or 9 lbs that recoil like a 3 1/2" mag 12 gauge. Don't know what the foot pounds of recoil are, but it has to be substantial. Sounds like a good opportunity for terrible shot placement for the general shooting public.

I think it would be a great round for the advanced hunter, and someone that will be hunting dangerous game, but I think it's limits are due to shooter capability, and the practical need for shooting heavy bullets.

If the question were, if you could only have one caliber for hunting all game in North America, and Africa, then I would certainly have a different opinion.

"The 20th Century's Top Rifle Cartridge"

I stand by the 30-06, and the .308

tc98, your ignorance is only exceeded by your stupidity, the 375 H&H does not recoil as bad as you seem to think.

Have YOU ever shot one?

I regularly use my 375 to hunt whitetail deer and coyotes and feral hogs in Texas, have killed elk in Colorado and a Musk Ox in northern Canada with it.

I am not an "Advanced" hunter, you have a total misconception about the 375 and all I can believe is that is because you have NO actual experience with the round.

You are obviously a genuine horses a--, or you would have read my post, and seen that I said I have no experience with the round, and therfore didn't understand the thoughts of it being regarded as highly as it is in this poll. Now, you wanna talk ignorant, and stupid, I would invite that somewhere else. You obviously are quite the big mouth, and need to be taught a few manors. Amazing how big some will talk on a computer!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by tc98:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I went 375 H&H, then 30-06. H&H was number one because you can hunt anything with it.

Agreed.

I understand that we can use it to hunt anything, but can anyone shoot it? How many people can't shoot a gun of 8 or 9 lbs that recoil like a 3 1/2" mag 12 gauge. Don't know what the foot pounds of recoil are, but it has to be substantial. Sounds like a good opportunity for terrible shot placement for the general shooting public.

I think it would be a great round for the advanced hunter, and someone that will be hunting dangerous game, but I think it's limits are due to shooter capability, and the practical need for shooting heavy bullets.

If the question were, if you could only have one caliber for hunting all game in North America, and Africa, then I would certainly have a different opinion.

"The 20th Century's Top Rifle Cartridge"

I stand by the 30-06, and the .308

the 375 doesn't kick much ... nor does a 12ga

As stated in earlier post, I have never shot one, and don't know how it recoils. My 870 with 3 1/2s will kick hard in my opinion. Doesn't keep me from shooting it, but I would enjoy a 410 a lot more.

It isn't everyday that someone can put there hands on a .375 H&H to shoot, and I may be totally wrong on the recoil. I know what the progression is from .243 up through .338, and would have assumed that the .375 would add a little extra thump. May have to try to locate one locally and shoot it if possible. I have always liked the look of the cartridge, and have read many great stories etc. of hunts, and hunters that have used them. My thoughts were only in the case of which calibers are the very best 20th Century Cartridge, and you can only pick 2. Obviously some on here are a might touchy over any kind of discussion, and are unwilling to offer any helpful enlightenment.
(Not directed at you)

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KurtC:


Not necessarily. The change to the .276 Perderson would have occurred in 1931, and all the 03's and 1917's still in inventory would most likely have been rebarreled to it shortly afterwards. Since Winchester already had the .270 in production, that would probably have have become the premier hunting cartridge until the release of surplus rifles after WWII.

That's a bit of a stretch, Kurt. During the depression there wasn't any money for rebarreling and producing a new and different military round. Funding for such things was really in short supply. roger

Since the 7x57 is disqualified there is a strong case for the 7-08. and 280 Rem.