Wildcat junkie


You are dead on about the .473 head diameter the time, date and so on.

That is a true disection of modern cases.

Cal30

While I realise this was lifted from another source, it is a bad poll.

It includes mostly north american cartridges and not many of the viable alternatives from the rest of world.

eg. The 7.62x39 changed the face of warfare.

quote:

Originally posted by tc98:
Question for all who voted in this thread.

The reason for my question is because of the final outcome of the poll. It appears that the 30-06 is the caliber that most would say is the greatest. Next is the .375 H&H. My question concerning the 2nd place caliber is not ment as just a mouthy disagreement, but one of amazment kinda.

I assumed that the question was targeting sporting arms, used primarily in North America, and Africa, and tactical weapons. I can certainly agree that for dangerous game, I would select a large caliber magnum. Question, how many of the folks responding to this poll have ever shot a .375 H&H, or own one? How many folks participating in this poll have used one to hunt in North America?

I chose the 30-06 and the 308 because of the practical use. I could have placed the 243, or 223 as my second very easily.

Is the .375 H&H way more popular today than I thought, or were a lot of these votes based on nostalia, and stories?

I may have to find one to shoot. I have never shot one, and have only seen them in 10% of the gun stores I have been in.

Again, not slamming the .375 H&H, just curious, and lack the exposure to this obviously great caliber.

i voted 30-06 then 375 h h. I own 1 375 h h and 6 rifles in 30-06 (bolt, 2 levers, autoloader, pump and single shot) --- and the versitility and range of arm is why i picked the 30-06 first.

quote:

You obviously are quite the big mouth, and need to be taught a few manors. Amazing how big some will talk on a computer!

You couldn't teach me any manors any better than anyone else has!

quote:

Amazing how big some will talk on a computer!

That is pretty muchily a two way street isn't Dude.

I re-read your post and saw where you said you had no experience with the 375, I missed that the first time.

I was out of place calling you ignorant, but you are mis-informed and because you don't have any experience shooting a 375, the statements you made, in my opinion show a level of ignorance, if for no other reason, by having no actual working knlowledge of the cartridge and how popular it is.

I see CHC is still being the anal sphincter he normally is!

The word is ASS-HOLE, and if stating an opinion is being an ASS-HOLE, you may not enjoy the AR, as many folks on here don't mind stating theirs.

Well, my favorite cartridge isn't on the list and based on the fact that this is clearly an American based poll I have to vote .30-06 Springfield first and .375 H&H second.
However I use neither, although I own a good .30-06 and intend on a .375 H&H in the future, the .303 British has been my favorite for over 20 years but predates the 20th century.
Cheers

replace 300 wby with 300 winny, 222 with 223 rem, 220 swift with 22-250 and they make sense.

6mm what??????

Most Significant? To whom? To the world 30-06. It revolutionized the smokeless powder world (after the 30-30). After that it's a prospective question. The .222 family spawned the .223 which is the perfect wounding machine for nato. The .375 H&H spawned the magnum craze which led to Roy perfecting. the 57mm Mauser case has had quite an effect. It may be popular, but the 7.62x39 is just crap backed by ALOTT of commies. 50BMG very productive and multi tasked in the last 30 years or so as a very potent sniper case(Based on the 30-06). Dimentionally I think the 338 Lapua is similar as well. The 06, H&H, and .222 in that order I guess for me. The rest are just efforts to make these better in one shape or another.

I went with the 30/06 as 1st and .308 as second (almost the same ballistics in a short action).

These so called "Greatest of all time" lists drive me nuts.. The two fold problem with them is A) they tend to be incredibly subjective. And B) all of the greats that remain unmentioned..

Personaly I think the 257 Roberts is a .25 caliber piece of perfection, and yet Craig Boddington recently listed it as one we could do without. Personaly I'd put HIM on that list.. And has the 22/250 been mentioned yet? The 358 Winchester is arguably the finest brush gun round ever chambered in a lever action. And ya gotta love that 338/06..

See what I mean? Hard to argue with the .30 caliber of 1906 though.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
These so called "Greatest of all time" lists drive me nuts.. The two fold problem with them is A) they tend to be incredibly subjective. And B) all of the greats that remain unmentioned..

Personaly I think the 257 Roberts is a .25 caliber piece of perfection, and yet Craig Boddington recently listed it as one we could do without. Personaly I'd put HIM on that list.. And has the 22/250 been mentioned yet? The 358 Winchester is arguably the finest brush gun round ever chambered in a lever action. And ya gotta love that 338/06..

See what I mean? Hard to argue with the .30 caliber of 1906 though.

This is good thinking. roger

If I were only allowed to use one rifle from that list to hunt the world over I would take the 375H&H and never look back.
Criag Boddington once said something like we have cartridges better suited for shooting across a canyon but the 375H&H can do this, there are cartridges better suited for stopping a charging cape buffalo but the 375H&H can do this. Something to that effect. I agree with that thinking

I voted for the 375 and then the 30-06. I looked at it this way, if the 30-06 had never come along or been created, there are other equal alternatives that can be used. the 375 is pretty much alone (with the 9.3x62 as an exception).

The 458 win mag should get an honorable mention. It opened up Africa to the American sportsman, at least by giving him a US built rifle in a big game cartridge. And it filled a void for rifles/ammo left by post WW2 Europe and England. In the 1960's and 1970's you probably couldnt get ammo for your double gun cartridges or rounds like the 404,416,etc, but there was always 458 Win mag ammo to be had. Just a thought!

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

You left out the 8X57IS.

True the 8X57 was around before the 20th century, but it was not the IS version.

Just as the 30/03 was not the same as the 30/06.

All of those .473" head cartridges owe there heritage to the 8X57.

What he saya +1.

The fact is that the 7x57 because of ALL its derivatives (by various "routes" some direct some round about) - 6mm Remington, 257 Roberts, 8x57 and the lengthened American 30-03 and 30-06 is probably the greatest single rifle cartridge EVER.

The 8X57 predates the 7X57 by 5 years.

The 8X57 was developed in 1888 for the Gewehr 1888 & was designated the 8X57I (Infanterie). In 1905 it was developed W/a spitzer bullet & designated the 8X57IS (Infanterie Spitz). this is a similar scenerio to the 30-03 later being loaded W/a lighter, spitzer bullet & re-named 30-06. This developement was in direct response to the superior Mv of the 8X57IS cartridge adopted by the German military in 1905.

So, not only was the 1903 Springfield a licensed copy of the '98 mauser, the venerable 30-06 was also a copy cat of the 8X57IS.

The 7X57 was developed in 1892 by Paul Mauser & adopted in 1893 by Spain in the '93 "Spanish" Mauser.

So, all .473" head based cartridges including the 7X57, 30-06, 308 Win, 243 Win, 270 Win, etc, etc, owe their heritage to the 8X57 (I) cartridge.

Therefore, any vote for these cartridges is a vote for the 8X57 by proxy.

I've read somewhere that Paul Mauser's first cartridge built on the Mauser case was the 6.5 x 57, not the 8MM. It was around first but never adopted by any country for their military. If that's factual, then the 6.5 x 57 is the real daddy of all things to come. Not bad for a 19th century idea.

30-06, 9.3X62, and .375 H&H in that order.

The "greatest" or at least THE cartridge that had the most influence in the 19th Century was...probably...French!

Of the 20th Century?

Probably the 250-3000 or the 270 Winchester as both, in a medium bore sporting cartridge readily available in a machine made mass produced sporting rifle, broke the "magic" 3,000 fps barrier.

All the others - 30.06, 303 British, Etc., etc., were really just someone else's "knock off" ballistically or physically of Mauser's "x57mm" adapted to local military preferences and prejudices about bore size.

I voted predictably.
#1 .30-06
#2 .375 H&H

7.92x33 in the Stg 44 started a whole new genre of rifles tha helped define the 20th century.

7.92x33
7.62x39
5.56 NATO

Have killed more truly dangerous game than any of us can truly comprehend.
and before you acuse this of being off topic look at the top contenders-most were military designs first.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
303 British ...."knock off" ballistically or physically of Mauser's "x57mm" adapted to local military preferences and prejudices about bore size.

Just to be combatative. Do you really think a rimmed black powder cartridge is a knock off of a "x57"? Now if you say the "x57" forced an upgrade of the original bp load, I'd have to agree entirely.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
I voted predictably.
#1 .30-06
#2 .375 H&H

Same here

As for 1900s century army-cartridge, I would vote for the 8x57 + family as the greatest of all times.

if ONLY in the 20th century, and only one choice?
7x64

quote:

Do you really think a rimmed black powder cartridge is a knock off of a "x57"? Now if you say the "x57" forced an upgrade of the original bp load, I'd have to agree entirely.

I was going to put 303 Mk VII but thought it too technical! But what you say is the substance of what I meant the 174 grain spitzer at 2,450 fps. Or Mk VII to the technical!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

Do you really think a rimmed black powder cartridge is a knock off of a "x57"? Now if you say the "x57" forced an upgrade of the original bp load, I'd have to agree entirely.

I was going to put 303 Mk VII but thought it too technical! But what you say is the substance of what I meant the 174 grain spitzer at 2,450 fps. Or Mk VII to the technical!

In that case (even though we are talking cartridges, not loadings as you have here) Paul Mausers vaunted x57 is nothing more than a copy of the French 8mm Lebel so therefore all modern cartridges owe the French, not the Germans.
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

Do you really think a rimmed black powder cartridge is a knock off of a "x57"? Now if you say the "x57" forced an upgrade of the original bp load, I'd have to agree entirely.

I was going to put 303 Mk VII but thought it too technical! But what you say is the substance of what I meant the 174 grain spitzer at 2,450 fps. Or Mk VII to the technical!

Ah, it was too early for me to figure that out.

Turtlewolf has a point which reminds me of another point. The inventor of a technology is rarely the one who makes profits from it. The inovatitive fast follower seems more likely to have success.

Dean

quote:

To the world 30-06. It revolutionized the smokeless powder world (after the 30-30). After that it's a prospective question.

What! The Germans got there first with the "S" loading of the 8x57 in 1904! A 154 grain spitzer bullet at 2,990 fps.

The '06 was one of those tightening of the anal sphincter moments when the US realised that the barely three years old '03 round was already therefore rendered obsolescent!

Great designing and far ahead of it's time; .256 Newton and the 30 Newton. The world just wasn't perceptive or ready. roger

I chose 375 and 06 in that order. the 375 is to africa what the 06 is to NA a friend once told me. I only put the 375 first as it will also cover anything the 06 can.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Joe-S:
I think that 7.62x39 is the most common cartridge in the world.
it may not be used for hunting much but the 7.62x39 is all over the world
joe

I was thinking the same.

Hmmm... The greatest? I think some of us would agree you forgot to mention the 7x57.
CZ

cz, this thread is talking about the 20th century. The 7x57 would definitely be towards the top of the best cartridges introduced in the 19th century.

Well my vote for the greatest rifle round developed in the 19th Century it would be the 22lr. It would get my vote for the greatest ever.

As far as 20th Century the 30-06 is a rock-solid choice - especially for Americans .

There have been excellent arguements for the 375 H&H as no.2 but I was one of the few that chose the 6mm PPC. I chose the PPC because it fathered an entirely new concept of accuracy and is the father of several lines of rounds including the WSM's etc., if it's short and fat it probably came from the PPC.

But certainly there are just as good of arguements for some of the others!.................DJ

This list is slanted more toward American rather than other countries. I picked the 30-06 as first. This catridge spawned lots of other cartridges. On the same length it has been successfully in comercial cartridges from 25 to 35 calibers. After the military shortened it to the 308 case, It has had commercial success from 24 caliber and up. Shortend a bit more and you get all the BR's. It was the base for one of my favorites the 22-250, the 250 Savage is a great cartrudge too.
My second choise was the 222. It got the same treat ment as the -06 case. It became it's best known offspring as the 223. That case was shortened to the 221 Fireball. And necked out to 7mm. It got necked down to 17 caliber in all it's various lengths. If you had a third place the 375 would be there. It has been treated the same as the two previous cases. Necked up and down shortened, blown out.
Except for a few other cartridges that for being the first to do something specific. As in the 22 Hornet, the first high velocity small bore. The 220 swift broke 4000 fps. Both not based on the big three.
The big three have produced more successfull offspring than all others.
Some one said something about asking this question again in 10 years. It won't make much difference. The things that happen in the next ten years will be based on what these three cartridges have done. Most of those will be considered as 21 Century cartridges.

What about the .500 3-1/4" NE ? Although its origins were from the C19th BP era, I think it became an NE load around 1900-1905 and spawned a number of C20th NE cartridges, not least the .500/.416, .500/.450, .500/.465, .470 ... Overshadowed by the smaller .500 3" NE, so I suppose the offspring outshone the parent...

quote:

.30-06 Springfield -- 1906
.375 H&H Magnum -- 1912
.270 Winchester -- 1925
.220 Swift -- 1935
.300 Weatherby Magnum -- 1948
.222 Remington -- 1950
.308 Winchester -- 1952
.243 Winchester -- 1955
.458 Winchester Magnum -- 1956
.338 Winchester Magnum -- 1958
7mm Remington Magnum -- 1962
6mm PPC -- 1975

7.62x39?
50 BMG?
9,3x62?

Frankly, if it weren't a 20th century list, and we could include things like the .303 and 7x57, I don't at all think the .375 would make the top 5. OK, I'll admit it....I am not sure it makes the top 5 of the 20th century either.

My observation has been that all the cartridges named by the respondents to this poll are great cartridges for one reason or another and all have their place in the field or a unique history. I choose the .375 H&H as Number 1 because of it's versatility. It's not the perfect long range caliber, but will do quite well with 270 grain bullets. It's not the perfect heavy rifle but will do the job with 300 grain bullets and it also has a great history behind it. The .375 H&H is one of the few calibers that, if you were limited to owning just one rifle, you could still hunt the entire world without too much difficulty. I also love the 30-06, which was my Number 2 choice.