The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles .338 Federal - ExplainGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| .338 Federal - Explain | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Scanning this, I don't think I have seen anyone post this correlation that I have noticed... And this is strictly something I have noticed, and I do not have any scientific lab documentation etc, so the trolls can just skip the grilling.... What I have noticed in loading for a few cartridges that have limited load data for them... so you have to use more common cartridge that is similar in base case.. like a 308 case or a 57 mm case... Example.. for the 6.5 x 57, if I consult 257 Roberts load data... if I take a cartridge in a larger bore, but use a bullet of the same or close sectional density.... then the same powder charge for one with the same powder is a close approximation to the velocity I should be able to expect on the larger bore diameter... What I am trying to say, is that if comparing a 308 to a 338 Federal... one can't just compare a 200 grain bullet in each bore... a 200 grain Bullet in 338 bore, has an SD of .250.... so a comparable 30 caliber bullet with a SD of .250 would be a 168 grain bullet, or say a 165 grainer at .0248 since it is the closest hunting bullet weight... so close to similar pressures with the same powders...if the sectional density of the bullets that are being used are close... velocities can vary some.. by 100 to 150 fps... but then, even two barrels in the same caliber can do that with the exact same loads... people get too hung up on velocity numbers and foot pounds of energy... choose a big enough bullet, with enough velocity, and put into the right spot.. it will do its job... don't get hung up on how many foot lbs that involves... And the logic for a 338/08... it has more thump than a 308.. in a short action.... Like I carry a 338/06... it has more thump than my 30/06s yet, it is close to my 338 Win Mag, with less recoil... so It is a good balance cartridge for me.... If I had a 338/08 or 338 Federal, I would have it in a short action, but with a heavy magnum contoured barrel for stiffness.. but 20 inches in length... I'd settle for the Spitzer bullet shapes in 225 grains and down... and load the 250 grain RN Hornady for short range brush hunting....the scope would be a 1.5 to 4 power shotgun scope... using data for the old 33 Winchester, will probably yield close to the same velocities... 33 Winchester data, yields the same in my 338/06... it is just another tool in the tool box.. and sometimes this hammer does a better job, in a given instance, than one of the other hammers... | |||
|
| One of Us |
Speer reloading data for the 338 Federal | |||
|
| One of Us |
Too Add to the above.. http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?metallicid=3421&MW=&PM=&PT cheers seafire  | |||
|
| one of us |
Note that from the Speer data SAAMI has decided that the MAP for this cartridge is 62Kpsi. Higher than the parent 308\7.62 NATO. Perhaps because they reason that no one will rebarrel an M-14 to 338 Federal. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Objections were raised to my quoting a Spear manual printed in 1994 in relation to this topic because it was so dated, so I took a look at the Hodgdon's 2006 Annual Manual and found supporting evidence for Spear's contention that the 338-06 is ballistically more efficient than the 35 Whelen is. I will list the two fastest loads for each cartridge with the 180 and 250 grain bullet weights and let you make up your own mind. These are maximum loads, both guns had 24 inch barrels, with a 1:16 twist rate for the Whelen and a 1:10 inch twist rate for the 338-o6. 35 Whelen: Bullet 180 Gr. SPR FP COL: 3.045 Bl-c(2) 65.0 Gr. 2,860 FPS @ 48,000 CUP H 335...60.0 Gr. 2,870 FPS @ 50,000 CUP 338-06:....Bullet 180 Gr. NOS BT COL: 3.250 Varget..58.5 Gr. 2,961 FPS @ 62,000 PSI Bl-c(2) 62.o Gr. 3,012 FPS @ 59,400 PSI 35 Whelen: Bullet 250 Gr. HDY SP COL: 3.220 Varget 55.0 Gr. 2,486 FPS @ 49,900 CUP Bl-c(2) 59.o Gr. 2,503 FPS @ 59,400 CUP 338-06: Bullet 250 Gr. HDY SP COL: 3.300 H 4350. 59.8 Gr. 2,540 FPS @ 63,400 PSI H 414.. 57.8 Gr. 2,539 FPS @ 62,200 PSI Bl-c(2) 57.8 Gr. 2,503 FPS @ 62,200 PSI The third load given above was included so you can compare two Bl-c powder loads between the 338-06 and 35 Whelen because Hodgdon uses PSI pressure ratings in some of their data and CUP for other cartridges. AS can be seen the 35 Whelen is burning 6 grains more Bl-c(2) powder to produce 21 more FPS velocity than the 338-06 out of its lighter powder charge. The CUP pressure rating is 59,400 for the Whelen and 62,200 PSI for the 338-06. With 6 grains less powder being burned for 21 fewer FPS, the pressure levels have to be pretty comparable regardless od which pressure system is being used and it is safe to assume that Bl-c(2) isn't the best powder to use in the 338-06 with 250 grain weight bullets on this case. This information indicates that the 338-06 will have a slight velocity advantage at the muzzle over the 35 Whelen if the proper propellents are used with the 180 and 250 grain bullets. It will also have an advantage down range because of the superior ballistic coefficients the 338 bullets have. The faster twist rates needed to stabilize those longer bullets and the longer bearing surfaces that the 338 bullets have provides the additional resistance needed to utilize the more progressive burning powders, yielding comparable to slightly higher velocities for the 338-06 in spite of the 35 Whelen's higher expansion ratio. These same factors will also apply to 338 Federal and 358 Winchester comparisons. I wish that everyone would adopt the same standardized pressure rating system for all cartridges all across the board to eliminate the confusion PSI and CUP pressure comparisons often generate...Rusty. | |||
|
| one of us |
Copper Units of Pressure is an old measuring system. Its data will eventually fall by the wayside as the newer piezo readings take its place. Think how much time, effort and money it takes to shoot all those thousands of loads that make up a load book. | |||
|
one of us |
I saw a Federal rep on a Afrikian hunting show last night shoot plains game with one & they FINALLY found the wounded but still very much alive animal the next morning & he finally finished it off. They should have picked smaller game to shoot to show the attributes of the 338 federal!   Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
|
one of us |
To recap: based upon both physical theory and ephemeral logic, one can assume that the correlation of both .308 and .338 bullets of equal sectional durability and ballistic reboundability is exponentially equal under certain moon phases but only in the same case. Right? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
|
One of Us |
Be nice to know the bullet used, distance, shot angle, etc. etc. but I would not call the ctg. a failure based on one hunt in Africa as the man behind the trigger may have done no better with any other round. If I am not mistaken, a 350 Rem Mag was taken to a Safari LONG ago with 250 Speer (perhaps grand slams) and used on Cape Buffalo with good success. If one used the right bullet in a 338F and within it's capabilities, and directed that bullet to vitals, I don't think that animal would have lived till the next day. Many 'shots' are botched with all types of ctg's, and the shooter/hunter was more at fault than anything else. Just think, a LARGE Grizzly was killed with one 22 bullet to the head, but that proved nothing, it only saved the potential mauling of the person who felt they had no option but shoot the bear with what they had in hand, as a defensive tactic. I see these 'reps' who SHOULD be better shots and know more about hunting than they do, but fall short. What happened with this Federal Rep I don't know, he MAY know how to shoot, or he may just be good in marketing and a lousy shot. You get all kinds in the industry. IT might have been simply choosing to hunt an animal outside the league of the ctg, but I think the shooter may very well have not fired the shot within the capabilities, or simply made a bad hit/shot placement. Without more info, cannot draw any conclusion. I would ASSUME, should not do that, but I ASSUME one might need high SD bullets on tough African game. I would like to know which of the 3 Federal loads was used, what animal, shot placement, and what the bullet did-that wounded it, as well as range. That would give me something to think about. Thanks for the report. BTW, last night I bang flop shot a hog, 240 yds, 243, 85 x bullet, meanwhile my buddy wounded one with 350 mag-about 150-175 yds. Today he found blood but no hog. Did the 350 'fail?' Well, without KNOWING where he hit it, and where the bullet went/traveling in or through animal, it cannot be known if blame is on the bullet, but I HIGHLY theorize that his shot was NOT placed well. It was done AT dusk in bad light, from hind end. I still have high confidence the 350 Mag can stomp hogs and other animals, but a bang flop won't happen if it were shot poorly with an even more powerful round. The 350 was not lacking in potential power, rather my buddy failed to deliver the 225 grain where it needed to go to do it's intended job. | |||
|
| one of us |
You're spot on br. I wouldn't have taken the shot he took but would have waited for a better oppertunity. He was a rep not a hunter that was for certain! Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
|
One of Us |
 What did he say???  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
|
| one of us |
"... buy whiskey. Do it(drink it) and than talk about it(read about it)." If you drink enough, it will clear up a bit.... and then it won't matter. | |||
|
| one of us |
Booker's, to be exact!  When you don't have some sort of profound contribution, make something up. Works for me. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 , the old "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with BS". Good one! | |||
|
One of Us |
Sir, Since there have been a vouge against the old .35 Wheelchair, the .338-06 have been favoured. The fact that the .35 Whelen have lower standard preassure than the .338-06, have gained the latter with more than a face-lift. If you look to the Barnes Manual nr.3, they load the 225 grs in the Whelen to 2713 f/s, and the same bullet weight in the .338-06 to 2574 f/s, a difference of 138 f/s. At 400 yards, the Whelen is still flatter, with a zero at 200 yards. The ,338 will still buck the wind better, due to its better SD, at 400 yards about 2" with 10f/s crosswind. As for the powders, you can be pretty sure there are suitable powders for every bullet in every cartridge. All else being equal, at the same preassure, the largest caliber will go faster. For practical use, no animal will ever feel the difference. The important thing to be critical to, is what BRAND of bullts one use against game, that is were the difference is, and what desides if your hunt should be a ball or a nightmare. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
|
| one of us |
Smooooooth!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bent, Heck, I'll use either one, give me a good rifle in either, good ammo topped with a good bullet, and then it's up to me, as yes, NO animal is really going to know what caliber you shoot, what bullet, or what case it came out of, what powder or how much was packed behind it, but WHATEVER anyone shoots, having confidence that is grown from it satisfying what they need/want in a ctg/rifle/ammo combo, MIGHT just make them SQUEEZE that much better, w/o a flinch or hesitation that causes a miss, or worse a wounded animal. The Real difference is more in our minds than in how the animals will react if hit in the same vital zone. Ok, glad to get that off my chest. Nice to see how many readers of this topic, perhaps Federal and Sako/Ruger are listening with excitement too. More sales, and I would not mind owning one ...in due time. Must go to the Shot Show first to see what Options are coming. | |||
|
| One of Us |
At a certain point true, Sir, but there are quite a few examples of how thing can go really wrong when the wrong bullets at the wrong speed are at work. At that point, no perfect squeeze nor point of impact matters very much. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
|
| One of Us |
tigger..... YOU didn't write Nixon's famous speech about 'What you thought I said, was not what you thought I said'.... or the Bill Clinton: " it depends on your definition of 'if'........" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bent, I stand corrected, I was assuming similar bullet SD and construction say a 210 .338 vs a 225gr .358. I think there would be little difference on game reaction between the two-they both will die very quick with shot placement. In the '06 you could say a 225/338 vs a 250/358 dia. would be close in penetration, etc. | |||
|
| one of us |
Nope, but sectional durability and ballistic reboundability have such a nice ring to them, I may have to use them elsewhere and see who bites  "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ok, so we misunderstood each other. Well, I heartely agree with what you are saying here! SD is the one reason why think the .338-08 has a niche, the 210 would be way to heavy in a .308 and have way to little SD in a .358. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
|
One of Us |
Seafire, I see no reason for anyone to challenge your thinking here. If you ever looked at the Powley Computer, intended for determining loads with IMR powders, you'll note it uses the SD of the bullet, NOT "gross weight". SD is essentially a numerical expression of a given bullet's comparative inertia, among other things. And this is what the powder gases have to overcome to accelerate the bloody bullet.... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
|
| One of Us |
I shoot the whelen , and based on my rifle, the speer loads are awfully light. I shoot a 250 grain speer with a load right off the Hogden web site, RL-15, and I get right about 2600. I like the 338 ,06 too and may have one built someday. But I can't see how one is any better than the other. I think the .338 06 with lighter bullets would probably be a little better for deer , hunting, But the whelen would kill them too, ...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
|
| One of Us |
Did I miss something inh any of these posts or did anyone mention friction? Any bullet of the same weight in a larger bore will have reduced bearing surface due to a shorter bullet. Comepare a .260 at 60K psi to a .308 at 50K with 110 grain bullets. The .308 is much faster and alot has to do with friction in the bore. Also from what I have read the .338 specs seem 100-150fps high. | |||
|
one of us |
Moorepower, I see you're from Nebraska. You must have gone to school there too. We all know what the N stands for don't we-----Nowlege! It's like this: Velocity is equal to acceleration times time; and if you want greater velocity you must either increase the acceleration or the time, it's that simple. Lets work on acceleration now; it's equal to force divided by mass (a type of weight) but we have decided to keep the weight constant so the force must be increased but the PSI loading can't be. How's it done? Simple again, force is pressure times the number of square inches and the larger caliber has more square inches to push against. Well what do you know, we have increased force!! Therefore we automatically have greater velocity. We must use slightly faster burning powders however to keep the force up on the greater number of cubic inches being vacated as the bullet leaves the barrel but we automatically get increased velocity when we increase the bullet diameter and keep the weight of bullet constant and assuming we have a powder that keeps the pressure up. It has nothing to do with friction! Your cornhuskers suck too! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'm unhappy to see the 338 Federal come about for one big reason: BULLETS! I would hate to see a string of light jacketed 338 bullets come about just because there is a new cartridge in 338" bore diameter. The 338 is, and I hope forever will remain, a big game calibre. The 338 Winchester is a splendid big game calibre in its own right with bullets possessing great sectional density, and it is no secret that the 338 Winchester with 250 grain bullets does its best work at velocities between 2650f/s and 2800f/s. That's something I don't believe for a second the 338 Federal can provide. The 338-06 just cuts the mustard, and the 340 Weatherby along with Remington's Ultra mag, exceed these velocities by a considerable margin. Bigger is the way to go in 338 calibre, not smaller as Federal has chosen to do. The way I see it, the 338 Federal is a sad attempt to breath new life into the grand old 358 Winchester. We don't need a smaller, newer Whelen number, we need the 358 Winchester and a good featherweight rifle. | |||
|
one of us |
Now hold on a minute Buckshot. You mean to tell me that to have optimum performance from 338 bullets they must be traveling between 2650 and 2800 fps. So what happens to your beloved 338mag or 340wby when the distance is "out there" and the nice tough 338 bullet is traveling at 2100, 2200, or 2300 fps? Will it not perform? I never have seen any 338mag proponents say they don't take long shots (300yards or more) because their 338mag's bullet has now slowed down to 2100fps and is going too slow for the bullet to work. I believe EVERY bullet has its best performance "velocity zone". Get above or below that velocity and the bullet will not perform to its best or expected potential regardless if it is a 338-08 or a 338-8mmMag wildcat. NRA Life member, H-D FLHTC, Hunter Ed instructor, And a elk huntin' fool! | |||
|
| One of Us |
No, not at all. I said that 250 grain bullets should to be launched at those velocities for maximum effectivness, not land. This is, afterall, the bullet the 338 Winchester made its reputation with. Now a 338 bullet moving at 1800f/s will certainly best the old 35 Remington and equal the 358, but it isn't a long range number by any stretch of the imagination. Moreover, I'll wager a beer that the 338 Federal kicks every bit as much as does the 338-06 with no gain in performance or weight savings, and that most of them will never see a 250 grain bullet. My idea of a short range thumper is the old 348 Winchester and 250 grain Barnes/Hawk bullets, not the 358 or its new and improved replacement, the 338 Federal. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Kyler, Its just like the 6br vs the 30br. A 6 br 28-30" barrel will shoot a 107gr bullet about 2850-2900fps. Neck it up to 30 cal (30br) and it will drive a 125gr bullet 3000-3050fps in a 20-24" barrel. Expansion ratio. Different powders used. The 30br uses quicker powders but will drive a heavier bullet faster. | |||
|
| one of us |
When you neck up a cartridge, you will get more velocity with a given bullet weight. I'm not an expert on the physics of it, but it definitely is true beyond a doubt. A .338 WM will shoot a 180-185 grain as fast as a .264 WM will shoot a 140, or as fast as a 150-160 grain 7mm Mag. These are all the same case at the same pressure. Look at the Weatherby mag lines, the same thing. A .338-06 will shoot a 210 grain bullet the same speed as a .30-06 will shoot a 180. I would fully expect a .338 Federal to be 150 fps faster with the same bullet weight as a .308. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
|
| One of Us |
Orifinally posted by Duikerman
I am afraid it is not quite that simple. If we combine a few laws of rudimentary physics and calculus, you will see that acceleration is the derivitave of velocity. Thus acceleration is determined by velocity, not vice-versa. For example, if velocity= 4x where x=some variable then acceleration is equal to the derivitave of 4x which would be 4. Hence, if x= any number greater than 1, then velocity would be greater than acceleration. The point is that acceleration is determined by velocity, not the other way around. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Change in velocity is the integral of acceleration with respect to time. You can get way with saying that "Velocity is equal to acceleration times time;" only as long as acceleration is constant. Acceleration of a bullet is not constant in internal, external, or terminal ballistics. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Great point, agreed. Buckshot, you owe me a beer, as I guarantee you that a 338 Federal WILL not and CAN not kick as much as a 338-06 (loaded to same pressure/bullet weight) in the same weight rifle. It is against the science, and I won't go there. Just as my 338 WM kicked a good deal MORE than my 338-06, so it is that the smaller case capacity 338F will kick less than either. I do not dispute the pros of a 358 and a need for more ammo/rifles, and Ruger is addressing that some now. My buddy that bought my 350 Mag just shot a hog a few days ago, which went less than 10 yards he said, and he had 2 bang flops on deer this year also. Mid bores are very effective, and high velocity is not essential. I expect the 338F to do the deed well within 300 yds and I have no concern about expansion, and penetration at the impact fps is a given with decent bullets. The concern about 'soft skinned' 338 bullets coming into the market, I doubt it is a real concern. Nosler years ago intro a 120 flat base 7mm for the 7-30 waters, but it specified for such use. We HAVE already softer bullets ie. 200's and 215 sierra. Even the 180/200 bal. tips will expand well. 210 partitions have done in truckloads of deer, elk, and other large game shot from 338 Mags for decades at a variety of distances. There is NO reason whatsoever that the 338F will have ANY shortcomings in the field. True slightly less SD vs heavy bullets in larger cases, but slightly reduced speeds mean a tad slower expansion=greater penetration which means reaching vitals........which means solid kills in the field. I have NO worries. Some nay sayers of the 338F act as if it is a pea shooter! Well, perhaps those guys drive the BIG jacked up 4x4's for their ego. The 338F Will get it done, I SERIOUSLY doubt Federal dropped the ball in their R&D launching a new product, without knowing it is going to be a solid round. Federal put their reputation on it. That should give some level of confidence. Don't knock it till you have tried it, or seen many others experiences. We have been in an era of 'bigger is better' and I laugh when the guys come to the range and "TOLERATE" getting pounded by the Magnums while I sit back and enjoy my 'lesser' rounds and have seen them deliver many solid clean quick kills because I have confidence in the accuracy and know the limits of what I am using. I rather 'Squeeze' the trigger on a rifle and KNOW my bullet will land where needed, than flinch and pull a shot with a cannon. I fully believe that more hunters, who don't want to spend many range sessions getting 'pounded' by larger cartridge rifles to 'get used to recoil' will benefit with more 'sensible' rounds. The 338F and 358W are both solid rounds with tolerable recoil for the average shooter. I do realize some hunters, hunting some places, really NEED a longer range cartridge, and there is a place for rounds with greater reach, but most people I have polled in my area don't shoot or need to shoot beyond 200-300 yards, and most could not place a shot further if they wanted, with any surety of hitting vitals. I shoot for many more reasons than just to hunt. If I could only have 1 rifle for all conditions, all game, ranges, etc. it would likely be a 338 or 375 on an '06 or larger size case, but I would not get near the enjoyment out of it, as I would never spend as much time at the bench getting to know it as well as rounds that I use. I say enjoy what you are using, but there is no valid reason any hunter should lack confidence in a 338 Federal. It is a solid choice within the same trajectory and bullet expansion limits as a 358win. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes, Newtonian logic applies here given all else is equal, however, isn't the idea behind the 338 Federal a short case, short action handy hunting package in a medium bore? Wouldn't it be a reasonable assumption to expect a short action rifle to weigh less than its longer brethern? I believe my point about recoil remains valid. My point(s) were and always have been, centered around light bullets and the possibility of "new" thin jacketed bullets for the 338 Federal: and that bigger was the way to go in 338 calibre. Only a fool would argue that a high-powered medium bore rifle wasn't capable of taking game. Having said that, I still believe we don't need another 308 based medium bore and that it will fare no better than the 358 Winchester. In fact, it might succeed in killing the 358. If the 338 Federal had not been based on the 308 case, I believe it would have gone the way of the WSMs and SAUMs -moribund. Heck, it might anyway... | |||
|
One of Us |
mmmmmmm... booooookeeeers....mmmmmm 338-06 35 whelen...its a matter of style... the 35 whelen and the improved even more so, are one of the most efficient medium bore carts ever... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Duikerman, I see bulls**t still blows west to east! If friction has no effect on velocity or acceleration, why is it that all 150 grain bullets from any maker and any diameter are not pushed to the same velocity with the same powder. Why did Barnes cut the groves on the TSX bullets, to reduce friction allowing higher velocity with less pressure. Why do Speer Grand Slams reach less velocity with the same pressure? Why do you have to drop the powder charge in an interbond for the same velocity? Why do coatings reduce pressure for a given velocity? Why does polygon rifling produce higher velocity for less pressure? Why do lead and copper jacketed bullets produce different velocities and pressure with the same weight of bullet? Why do bullets with different jacket thickness require different powder charges to reach the same velocity. Why can you take 100 barrels of the same length and get 100 different velocities? Most reloading manuals cover this if my questions do not make you scratch your head.Frictin and bearing surface do matter. The formulas above are for acceleration in air and even then air density has an effect. Friction is a variable in the equation! How about those Buffs! Montana State is pretty tough! Well at least the Broncos finished above the Raiders! | |||
|
one of us |
I believe the 338F can make the velocity's they clam...Why it's loaded with super-atomic-jet-powder!  I don't know what I was thinking when I got my .338 RUM.... | |||
|
| One of Us |
I will stick to my .358 Win with 225 gr Partitions and an "over book" max of W-748 in my MRC 1999 bolt action. (It is really just up to current presure levels for .308-based cartridges...) | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles .338 Federal - Explain
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia