Maybe I'm a bit slow but can someone please explain to me how Federal can claim they neck up a .308 case, seat a heavier bullet and get 150-200fps more velocity???

Is it "optimistic" advertising or did I miss a couple laws in physics?

Are they just over-loading it (a la heavy-magnum/high energy/+P ammo)?

Kyler

Good question!

Sorta reminds you of the 338-06 claims, doesn't it?

I'm not in on the .338 federal. Are you talking the same weight bullets? I know the larger bore would cause lower pressures with the same weight bullets.

Its the current fashion to introduce new cartridges loaded with high energy technology.

Let me try to explain it. Take two barrels, on in 308 and the other in 338-08. Say the bullet has been fired and is only 3 inches down the barrel. In the .308 barrel you now have a cylinder behind the bullet that is three inches long and .308 round. With the .338 you have a cylinder behind the bullet that also is three inches long, but .338. Do the volume math and on that and you will see the .338 has more volume. What this means is that the more the .338 bullet moves down the bore it creates more volume then a .308 bullet moving the same distance and that larger volume increases faster then the .308. This means that pressure drops off faster in the .338 barrel because more volume is being presentd and faster for the gased to fill. This is the same explanation as why a 35 Whelen can shoot a 250 gr bullet faster then a 30-06 can without dangerous pressures.

actually, I'm more in tune with pixie dust being sprinkled in the case.
This is Federal's first boutique offering, and the numbers are IMHO a bit optimistic...or Federal bought the old 28" smoothbore barrel Weatherby has been using all these years for their MV redings.

Rich

I,m going to have to be shown the chrony numbers by some one here on the site that has no dog in the fight before I belive them myself.
But on the other hand I am not that skeptical.
federal claims 2800 for a 180 grain .338, while with a .308 its prety hard to get to 2650.
But !
When you increase the bore size by .030, you can use hotter powders. As some one in an earlier post said and I will try to say differently , when you take a givin case , in this case its the .308 case , and neck it up and down,
The presure peeks changes lets take it to extreems. A .243 Bore and a .358 winchester,
I think you can see how it takes longer for the preasure to escape from a small .243 bore than a big .358.
If you some how cramed the same powder charge and bullet weight into the smaller case the preasure would be not be able to escape out the bore fast enough causing tremendous peek preasure.
So as you increase the bore diamiter you increase the powder burn speed pushing the bigger diamiter bullet of the same weight a bit faster. How much faster remains to be seen.
But I tell you what if a 185 grain barnes tripple shock in a .338 federal can get within 50 feet of there stated 2750, its a prety potent load for any thing out to about 300 yards. ...tj3006

Another 338 that kicks on the heels of the 338 Win Mag is the 338-06. It comes very close with say a bullet like the 225 gr.

By the way the 358 Win is subperb overlooked cartridge. Way out of it's league in performance.

Reasons why the .338 Federal may be a little faster:

1. Explained by Max Payne.
2. Different reloading methods and powders used by Federal.

Some of you may already know of a wildcat, the .375 Taylor. This wildcat uses a .338WM case, topped with a .375 bullet. It also uses a .375 H&H-caliber barrel. Even though the .338 case uses less powder than a .375 H&H case, it still produces velocities that are very close to the .375 H&H's. Why is that? Probably because the larger bore can handle most of the pressure generated by the powder in a smaller .338 case, and still maintain a lower pressure than a packed (with powder).375 H&H case.

quote:

Originally posted by MaxPayne:
Let me try to explain it. Take two barrels, on in 308 and the other in 338-08. Say the bullet has been fired and is only 3 inches down the barrel. In the .308 barrel you now have a cylinder behind the bullet that is three inches long and .308 round. With the .338 you have a cylinder behind the bullet that also is three inches long, but .338. Do the volume math and on that and you will see the .338 has more volume. What this means is that the more the .338 bullet moves down the bore it creates more volume then a .308 bullet moving the same distance and that larger volume increases faster then the .308. This means that pressure drops off faster in the 338 barrel because more volume is being presentd and faster for the gased to fill. This is the same explanation as why a 35 Whelen can shoot a 250 gr bullet faster then a 30-06 can without dangerous pressures.

I always thought that more pressure = more velocity not less pressure = more velocity like in your explanation.

I would think that because of the larger bore, you can jack up the velocity w/ the 338FED until the pressure goes back up to a factory safe level. If you tried to jack up the velocity as high w/ the 308, you would then exceed factory safe pressure levels. The end results is the larger diameter bullet is driven faster while maintaining a safe pressure.

Does that sound right?

GVA

How fast does the 338 Fed push a 225gr Hornady bullet? I own the 338 RUM and was curious.

quote:

Originally posted byThomasJones:
...But I tell you what if a 185 grain barnes tripple shock in a .338 federal can get within 50 feet of there stated 2750, its a prety potent load for any thing out to about 300 yards. ...tj3006

With its lower BC&SD@2700 I dont see what great advantage it will have over 308win180MRX@2630 out to 300yds.(.338-185mrx is also avail.)
210tsx@2700,225tsx@2600 Now,that would be a different story, but we need 338-06 for that and its where 338cal justice begins IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
Maybe I'm a bit slow but can someone please explain to me how Federal can claim they neck up a .308 case, seat a heavier bullet and get 150-200fps more velocity???

Is it "optimistic" advertising or did I miss a couple laws in physics?

Are they just over-loading it (a la heavy-magnum/high energy/+P ammo)?

Kyler

Oh boy - I may wish I had not jumped in here. PHYSICS! = Headache coming!

Kyler,

If you could provide the bullet weights and velocities would help with example. But I'll try, from what I remember of physics and my best guesses about he 308:

Assume a 308 can shoot a 180 bullet at 2,600 fps. Also, I think the 308 fires at a peak pressure somewhere between 54,000 and 60,000 psi; so also assume peak pressure will be 58,000.

Doing the math - a .308" bullet will present 0.0745 square inches of area for the powder to push on. At 58,000 psi pressure, the peak force on the bullet will be 4,321 pounds of force pushing the bullet out of the barrel to obtain the 2,600 fps velocity.

Now lets also assume the 338 federal can shoot a 180 grain bullet. Doing the same math, the .338 bullet presents 0.0897 square inches of area for the powder to push on. At the same 58,000 psi pressure, the peak force on the bullet will be 5,204 pounds of force pushing the bullet out of the barrel.

Summary:
A 338 Fed with an appropiate powder can apply 883 more pounds of peak force to push a 180 grain bullet out the barrel than a 308 Win. This 883 pounds of force is 20% more for the 338 Fed when compared to the 308 Win. So the 338 Fed will shoot the same weight bullet faster.

NOW!? (and I'm way out on a limb here)...I would guess that a 20% increase in force would increase velocity about 10%. So would predict, that a 338 Fed would push a 180 grain bullet to 2,860 fps which is 260 fps faster than a 308 Win. If the bullet weight were be increased from 180 to 200 grains in the 338 Fed the velocity would drop about 120 fps.

SO, if they ARENOT doing anything with the powder (like hornady does with there lightmags) I would predict:

• A 338 Fed would shoot a 180 grain bullet to 2,860 fps
  
• A 338 Fed would shoot a 200 grain bullet to 2,740 fps
  
• A 338 Fed would shoot a 220 grain bullet to 2,620 fps

PS: If the actual bullet wts and velocities you are seeing are much off those above, then they may be doing something with the powder, too.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

I always thought that more pressure = more velocity not less pressure = more velocity like in your explanation.

nope, not ever, doesn't work, period.

WHAT you say

max pressure means jack didillie...

area under the pressure curve is work...
the larger the area under the curve the more work.

for example, a stupid load of bullseye with a 200gr hornady bullet, in a 22inch barrel in this 338-08 to60kpsi, results in 2098 fps.

for the record, the 338-08 is in quickload

using a proper powder, say i4895, and the results AT 55,0000 psi, are 2651fps

but the bullseye load has more pressure? why then isn't it faster?

because, friends, max pressure has got jack to do with work... pressure over time, area under that curve, is the results.

the 338-08 goes faster with the same weight bullet by
1- expansion volume
2- surface area that the work is being exereted upon


which is 358 win can take the same weight bullet, 200, and go over 2700fps...

jeffe

Kyler,

I was able to find the 338 Fed specs on the Fed website. They say the 338 Fed would push a 180 grain bullet to 2,830 and a 210 grain bullet to 2,630 so I'm not to far off my predictions!

PS: Hope this helps as I did get a headache!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
actually, I'm more in tune with pixie dust being sprinkled in the case.
This is Federal's first boutique offering, and the numbers are IMHO a bit optimistic...or Federal bought the old 28" smoothbore barrel Weatherby has been using all these years for their MV redings.

Rich

The more bullet base area there is for the powder gases to push on, the higher the velocity will be for a larger diameter bullet of equal sectional density (inertia) - so the .338 bullet can weigh more, but have the same sectional density as a lighter .30 caliber bullet.

So the heavier .338 bullet can be driven as fast as the lighter .308" one. Or, given bullets of equal weight, the .338" bullet has a lower SD than the .308 bullet, and can therefore be driven faster.

But the real question is, how far downrange will the .338" bullet retain its initial advantage over the .308" bullet? This, of course, depends on the B.C. of both bullets. But it seems that the .338 Federal is better for a sufficient distance to fit into the advertising hype.......

quote:

I always thought that more pressure = more velocity

Not necessarily! A given load can have a higher peak pressure than some other load, and yet produce LOWER muzzle velocities. This is because MV is dependent on HOW LONG the pressure is maintained as the bullet travels down the bore, as well as how much pressure was produced initially.

As an extreme example, lets say 20 grains of Bullseye behind a 180-grain bullet in a .308 WIN. will produce a pressure ALMOST HIGH ENOUGH to blow up the gun, yet the resulting MV will be lower than you can get from 44 grains of H4895. Why? Because the Bullseye powder charge, containing less total energy than the H4895 charge, is all consumed before the bullet moves into the rifle bore, and there's nothing but DRAG (bore friction) acting on the bullet after that. But with the 4895 charge, there's more push after the initial pressure peak (ie, the 4895 charge has more calories in it, since it weighs more. But its' energy is released more slowly, creating a lower pressure but for a much longer period of time....)

El Deguello

or area under the pressure curve.. presure on y, time on x

jeffe

Wood jack,
I would agree, its not a huge advantage, but frankly I have said for a long time inside 300 yards alomst any cartridge will do, for deer
(not tube mag lever rounds) and for Elk I would say you have to throw out the .6mms and .25s and then prety much any cartridge will do again.
All I,am saying is I thnik the .338 federal is a good cartridge , I don't plan on trading my .308 for anything, and i expect I will buy at leas one more !! ...tj3006

If your talking about one rifle and one load, then yea, more pressure as a result of increased powder charge will normally equate to greater velocities. But what we have here is a classic apples and oranges comparison.

Take a look at this comparison; A 243 win can muster 2700 maybe 2800 fs with a 100 gn pill, but use the same 100 grains in a 308 and your looking at over 3300 fs. But you loose something in the process as well, sectional density.

Bottom line is that the smaller the bore is, the easier it is to reach peak pressures. The 243 will peak with only 34 gns of 4064 while the 308 can safley use 49 gns of the same powder both using a 100 gn slug. Both are within the same pressure zones, but you might say the larger charge with the larger bore is getting more work done.

I can get nearly 100 fs more from my Whelen with a 200 gn pill than I can with a 180 gn from my 06. More energy, but again less SD.

But It is also a given that manufacturers will paint a rosey picture to move their products and it can be quite misleading.

Again, I do not get it.
I mean, it is logical that a bullet at a sertain weight will go faster in the larger caliber, but to say that a cartridge with a sertain bullet diameter is stupid - is really stupid.

.243Win, .260 Rem, 7-08 Rem, .308Win,
.338 Fed, .358Win.

All have their place.
Say, you want a new gun on a short action, and you think 200 grs will fit you best. It will be to heavy for a .308, and have to little SD in a .358.
So, 338 Federal, Voila!

No, if the question was; "I am dirt cheep and want one gun to cover it all on a short action, what caliber?", the .358 Win shines brightest.

Like any of the other diameters on the .308 case, or any other case, it fills a hole and creates an option.

Bent, you are correect, of course. If the 6mm Remington (6X57mm), .257 Roberts, 6.5X57mm Mauser, 7X57mm Mauser, 8X57mm Mauser, 9X57mm Mauser, 9.3X57mm Mauser, etc., etc., are OPK, then why NOT a .338/'08 as well?

If the .358 Win. is a good cartridge, and the 308 Win., .243, .260, 7mm/'08, etc., are good cartridges, so is the .338 Federal......

Is it necessary, though? Well, if you are in business to sell guns & ammo, you always need something NEW to peddle!

Great responses.....I agree with most all points/arguments.

I think for a one gun deer hunter, or larger game under 300 the 338F is a good option to the Win mag and I do concede that if the major manufacturers got their heads out into the sun, the 338-06 rifle/ammo prodution could kill or hamper the 338F's success.

If it were marketed with the right variety of bullet weights in some solid rifles, I KNOW having used one, that a 338-06 would make MANY hunters happy.

It is another 'flavor' for a recoil manageable gun with solid killing power.

Yes, if you are a one gun hunter, and want all options, and reload, and 358 is THE do it all ctg in a short action at that runs on 'find it anywhere 308 brass'

I WOULD like to see more 358's produced as well as 338-06.

Since most of us cannot be happy with 'just one gun' speaking for myself, I might enjoy owning a few of the various midbores, if I could afford it, and it would definitely be more affordable to buy one vs building if you can be happy with what is offered.

My next short action build could be a 260 or 6.5x47 Lapua that would do great on varmints to deer, but my buddy just killed his second deer of the year with my former Ruger 350 Rem Mag, 225 Sierra, both shoulders, exit hole in hide about size of a quarter, blew hair off around the hole, and meat damage was not bad. Oh, range-168 yds, he hit the dirt right there, that is what I like about the mid bores-seem very consistent in DRT. My buddy forced me to sell my rifle I loaned to him when he DRT his first deer, a nice buck this year, also shoulder shot.

I am interested in using a 338F to see if the results will be similar. I would imagine 260's and 7/08 would have done fine, and others, but I have been very favorable impressed with his kills and the ones I had in my 338/06. Nothing bad to say slinging any mid bore slug at a reasonble speed, in a gun you like, accurate, and that you can handle.

I think many shooters can handle the '08 and '06 based rounds recoil (350RM has '06 capacity). The 338WM creates many 'flinchers' from what I see. An all time classic round, but one that takes some 'training' to use it to it's potential, and a round that likely has too much of a good thing if that is possible, I just have not enjoyed shooting the one I had, and since I enjoy shooting, I think I will get more range time with a 338F.

I may get a Tikka 338F Syn/blue T3 and a Ruger 358W and compare just because.

Anyone know if Kimber might do a 84M in 338F or 358W? It seems like a great fit. I am trying to plan getting to the Shot Show and get the latest.

I could see a light wt. 21"bbl bolt gun for woods hunting in .338Fed. No matter how you build it, the short actions come in lighter so why not. If your max. range is under 250yds or so, why not? My 8.5# .338-06 is a great rifle, but a 7# .338Fed, sounds like I need a new project rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
.243Win, .260 Rem, 7-08 Rem, .308Win,
.338 Fed, .358Win.

All have their place.

bent,
*I* feel the 6, 7, 7.62, and 9 mm are the only "good" 308 based rounds.. the 260 is NOT designed for the long heavy bullets the 6.5's are known for, and let's face it, without those long heavy bullets,.... well, animals don't know .5mm .011"... 2.5 sheets of paper, difference.

6mm, great for the recoil sensitive
708 - shoots GREAT with 160s, and 100s, low recoil
308 - could just have easily been a .323
.358 -- good call..

what's next? a 375-08? such a wildcat exists, and if rimmed is basically the 375 winchester.


however, if federal has revised the 358.


what a second

what we might be missing here is that federal, cci, weaver, ramline, gunstick, and speer are now all owned by OUTERS..


anyway..

had federal chosen to bring out ammo for the 358 winchester, people would be beating a path to their doors...


I find the 338 fed to be a waste of money, exactly like the WSM line...

you had asked about the 338-06 and the 35 whelen... loaded to the same pressure, the whelen shoots heavier bullets faster..

BUT, the 338-06 doesn't kick as hard...

but a 35 whelen kicks LOTS harder than a 358 win.


so, my perspective is, one can't run fast enough to give me a wsm, a weatherby rifle (unless it's a howa, so I can rebarrel it), or a 338-08

jeffe

Oh, for crying out loud!
If we should make a list over all the cartridges not needed............................

So the .260 is not needed because the animals do not feel the difference of .5mm, but you do find a place for both the .284 and .308? Is that not the same gap?

I have a lot of respect for you , Jeffe, but your resemblence between the .375-08 and the .375 Winchester is so far way out there, it really makes me wonder. The first fires a 250 grs pill(BC .450) in a boltgun at 2500 f/s, while the latter shoots a 255 grs pill(BC .290) at 1900 f/s in a lever.(Barnes Manual) The difference is 600f/s(!!!!!), whilst the difference between the .375-08 and .375H&H with that bullet is only 500 f/s. It is closer to the H&H than the Winchester in performance, yet You claim them to be equal?

That you just plain do not like the .338-08 is another story and quite understanable - it is just like my immense dislike of the .376 Steyr!

Bent
you don't like the steyr? Heh.. then, well, cheers .. shows we both probably dislike good rounds for no real reason..

ln the 375-08, vx 375 win... put them both in an enfield bolt gun and do the same load work... be the difference shrinks FAST...

Oh, on the 308 and 708... I guess I wasn't really clear.. the 308 COULD have been an 8mm, for all it matters practically, and the "only" reason I put it out there (other than it actually IS a good round) was to give homage to the initial round..

let me restate that, if the 308 had came out as either the 8mm-08, or 7mm-08, i would be laughing about the reasonableness of splitting those with a 7.62 ...

hmm, you don't like the steyr... dang it, well, no one is perfect my friend...

tell you what

let's go hunting, i'll bring a 376, you bring a 338-08, and we'll go take some exotics!!! and then can sit by the fire, chuckle at each other's lame jokes, and by the end of the hunt we'll like the other caliber, too

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

ln the 375-08, vx 375 win... put them both in an enfield bolt gun and do the same load work... be the difference shrinks FAST...

Yea, because putting an .375 on an enfield is sooooooo common!
Any way you slice it, the difference in case capasity between the .375-08 and the .375 Win, (58,92 / 48,60 = 10 grs!) is larger than the difference between a .35 Rem and .358Win (51,76 / 57,56 = 6 grs)
You are beating a dead horse, and you know it!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

tell you what

let's go hunting, i'll bring a 376, you bring a 338-08, and we'll go take some exotics!!! and then can sit by the fire, chuckle at each other's lame jokes, and by the end of the hunt we'll like the other caliber, too

jeffe

I'm in for that!
Truth to be told, personally -I don't like the .338 Fed either. Can I bring my 8x57, p-l-e-a-s-e?

Lets put this in a little different context that most of us can more easily relate to. It is a lot like the motor in your car or truck. The bullet is a piston and the barrel is the motor's cylinder. A longer barrel gives a longer piston stroke. Increasing the diameter of the piston increases the amount of pressure that can be exerted on the piston. More cubic inches results in more horse power, i.e. more velocity in the case of our bullets, irrespective of the powder or gasoline being used.

This works the same as the bigger cartridge heads do in exerting more back thrust on a standing breach or bold face, that's why a Contender can take 52,000 psi from a 223 Remington but is limited to only 48,000 psi from a 30-30. There is, additionally, also a little powder capacity increase from going to a larger bullet diameter of 338 as compared to 308 diameter bullets, but not enough to account for the total velocity increase Federal is claiming.

As progressively larger diameter bullets are loaded on the same case to equal pressures, the larger diameter bullets will always show a velocity increase. However, starting out faster does not translate into increases velocity at all distances down range due to the poorer ballistic co-efficients that larger diameter bullets usually have. Comparing 338 and 35 caliber bullets of equal weight on the same case, the 338s usually pass the faster starting 35s by the time they have travel 150 or so yards.

In speer's # 12 manual, Speer says: "Ballistically, the 338-06 is somewhat superior to the 35 Whelen. In the Whelen, 250 grain bullets failed to reach 2400 feet/sec. In the 338-06, the same weight bullets approached 2500 feet/sec and exceeded this mark with one propellant. Velocities with 200 grain spitzer were in excess of 2700 feet/sec, only about 200 feet/sec behind the same bullet in the 338 WINCHESTER MAGNUM."

"The fact that .338 bullets have higher ballistic coefficients than ,358 bullets of the same weight, and heavier and tougher bullets are available for 338, combine to make the 338-06 superior to the whelen for the rifleman who commonly hunts large game like moose, elk and bear."

The same thing can be said for the 338 Federal as compared to the 358 Winchester, and that's why the 338 Federal shows significant velocity increases over the 308 Winchester with the same bullet weights...Rusty.

Hey Fred,

I like the 338/06 alot, owned one, but for the hunting I do in the south, deer largest game, toting an 8lb rifle w/o scope lost it's appeal, but I DID lay low a few deer and it did nicely. I agree, if one wants a lighter rifle the 338/08 makes sense as lighter means more felt recoil anyway, and a lightweight '06 is going to hit you more like a Win Mag.

I like heavier guns for longer shots anyway, so a long action standard weight rifle if not a heavy barreled (stand hunting) is my preferred if I think I will shoot over 250-300.

Over those ranges can be challenging, not only drop, but wind, and let's face it in the field, our ability to hold well gets iffy when ranges get long. I owe it to the game I hunt to know well my aim is true before I squeeze. Today I sat and watched a buck run in a field and later a doe. I held fire, as I was toting my Marlin 357 lever with peeps, hoping for a shot within what I felt comfortable. That is hunting, but I may opt again for a scoped rifle next time, depending on where I hunt. I was really looking forward to busting a deer with that lever, heard many reports on how effective that combo is within reason. I load 158 JSP's at 1900 or so with Lil Gun, and expect it to deliver to 150 with shot placement, but prefer to use under 100. Just adds a little challenge and handicap, so you have to pass on certain shots.

My first deer was headshot this year, and I intend on a clean kill my next. Good hunting.

Oh, Jeff, I never suggesting one sell a good 358, as I would not mind owning one myself, esp. a bolt, but if say a newbie wanted to buy their first deer rifle, and let's say that your average hunter does not roll their own, a 338 F would be a solid ctg within 300 yds. I hope to see a less expensive 200gr sp for the average guys to buy. To think some 358 hunters use 180/200 for deer when the BC/SD is lower than that bullet weight in a 338? Anyway, I know not to hold my breath for you to try one, as your adamant that the crossover similarities and lack of pistol bullets give it some disadvantage, but I don't know many people who hunt varmints with their large game rifles nor complain about no pistol bullets for say their 30-06's etc. I am with you on the economy as I shoot bulk bullets in my Marlin, and it's a good thing considering it gets shot lots more, low recoil, less powder, etc, but I shoot it alot for the fun of it.

I do know from my 350 that pistol bullets drop fast at 300 and further, make that 150 in my Marlin. So their practical use on varmints is I'd guess short to medium range given BC. Again, with 225's and 250s I'd be happy with 358W and many others out there would be too if the ammo companies Do decide to mfg more choices, along with rifles. Perhaps the 338F will cause a secondary demand in the long run for the 358's and help in what factories offer, but I don't think anyone will be dissatisfied with the 338F.

Jeff,

That 358 may kick as much as a 35 Whelen because it's in a shorter lighter action. I like how when folk say, for example, the 7x57 is a good round because it has mild recoil. Recoil is calculated by the weight of the bullet, weight of the powder charger, the velocity, and the weight of the rifle. Now if you blast a 154 gr bullet out of the 7x57 in a light rifle, how much different is the recoil going to be then say the same bullet out of a 280 Remington with a slightly heavier rifle? I have a 7m-08 Sako Mannlicher carbine and let me tell you, although not a 375 H&H magnum in recoil, it sure lets you know when you fired it!!!

By the way, like I mentioned before, I throated my custom made 260 out to able to load heavier bullets and it shoots just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Hook:
In speer's # 12 manual, Speer says: "Ballistically, the 338-06 is somewhat superior to the 35 Whelen. In the Whelen, 250 grain bullets failed to reach 2400 feet/sec. In the 338-06, the same weight bullets approached 2500 feet/sec and exceeded this mark with one propellant. Velocities with 200 grain spitzer were in excess of 2700 feet/sec, only about 200 feet/sec behind the same bullet in the 338 WINCHESTER MAGNUM."

"The fact that .338 bullets have higher ballistic coefficients than ,358 bullets of the same weight, and heavier and tougher bullets are available for 338, combine to make the 338-06 superior to the whelen for the rifleman who commonly hunts large game like moose, elk and bear."

Sir,

What is wrong in this picture is that the .Whelen was loaded to a lower preassure than the .338-06, and thus failed to reach the same velocity. At the same preassure, the Whelen would outperform the .338-06 any time.

And todays bullet selection is just as good for the .358 caliber as for the .338.

Maxpayne,

Let me know if you want to 'lose' the Sako. Also, yes recoil is a 'gun weight' dependent issue, along with the rest.

I can tell you that the Ruger 350 is a light gun, in Syn stock form and the hard rubber pad is little help, yet the new hawkeye is said to have a new red pad-but pics look like a solid rubber pad so if so, it does not do near as much good as a Limbsaver or similar. I expect a noticable DECREASE in recoil in the 358/338F vs the 350 RM
as the magnum kicked similar to the 338 Win Mag I had.

I think a 338F with 210's or 358 with 225's would be all the recoil I'd want in a big game gun in say a Kimber. The WSM's are just overboard for me and I wonder how many shooters can tap the potential long range ability of them in a light weight rifle that is harder to steady?

Speer sells bullets in all the popular calibers. I doubt that it makes any difference or that they care very much what caliber bullets we buy, and the Whelen was loaded to the same pressure levels as the 338-06 was.

Again, I quote from the same Speer manual: "Because this is a wildcat cartridge, no pressure standards exist. The loads listed are in the pressure range of the 35 Whelen, around 52,000 cup and were safe in out test rifle. Since all chambers are custom and not very consistent, always start with the minimum load and work your way up slowly, watching for pressure signs in your rifle."

Speer also said that the 338-06 is a very flexible cartridge, killing deer very well with the lighter weight bullets and giving much less meat damage than any of the 300 magnums. With the 250 grain Speer Grand Slam, you are ready for elk and moose. With the 275 grain semi-spitzer, you will get deep penetration and bone breaking power on the larger bears.

The relationship of the 338 Federal to the 338-06 is similar to the relationship between the 308 and 3006. There is a difference but not enough that the game will ever notice the difference. Any of the rounds that have been talked about on this thread are all quite able and capable of getting the job done, so use what ever you like and don't loose any sleep over any real or theoritical differences...Rusty.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Hook:

Again, I quote from the same Speer manual: "Because this is a wildcat cartridge, no pressure standards exist. The loads listed are in the pressure range of the 35 Whelen, around 52,000 cup and were safe in out test rifle. Since all chambers are custom and not very consistent, always start with the minimum load and work your way up slowly, watching for pressure signs in your rifle."

Sir, that manual was written in 1994, and many a things have happened since. The .338-06 have been standariced by CIP, and the bullet selection for both have multipied many times.

What has not changed is physics, and at the same preassure from the same case the larger caliber bullet will always go faster. A 180 grs Barnes x will do 2600 f/s from a .308Win, but it will reach 2850 f/s from a .358Win.
Today we know a Whelen will do 100 f/s more than the .338-06 with any bullet weight.

Bent makes great points re: 338-06 and Whelen and test barrels do vary from gun to gun esp. from factory vs custom.

I had a Hart 338-06, shot 2909 200's, 2790 215's, and 2670 225's, perhaps a tad faster than others, fine in my gun.

The difference in the 2 '06 rounds are small, and arguments are made for both, I myself never regretted what I built/used and I know many Whelen users feel the same about theirs, but pure physics, yes, the larger bore starts faster, and then the smaller 338 may catch up/make up some over distance, so it comes out a wash when you look at ballistics.

The good thing is they both work well when pointed straight!

For myself, I like both the 358 and 338F, but in the '06 form, go figure-I prefer one over the other, did and still do, but that is just me.

If the 338-06 would be mass marketed with good ammo choices and gun choices, it might be a good success. The marketing 'gliche' might have been Asquare putting their name on it say before Remington. Same as the 6.5-06. I am sure Remington had the opportunity, unless their eyes were closed which would not surprise me.

I think the 7mm-08 has been a great hit over time with them, as the 243 and 338 Win Mag was for Winchester.

Now Federal hopped on the bandwagon with their name, hmmmmm history might have had a '338-08 Remington', but Federal beat them to it. Time will tell. I think they realize they offer the non handloader community more ammo options than are had with the 358W. I do find it interesting how Remington has made many 35 Whelen's, and wonder how they dropped the ball on the 338-06 opportunity.

Perhaps there are patent right issues-read less profit? I don't know, but that scenario comes to mind.

I think Remington could sell a truckload of Model 7's in Stainless Steel CDL stocked-perhaps a slim laminate or Kevlar/glass, WITH 20" bbl with Iron sights in both 338F, 358, and 350, but I don't work there. And I feel the same about Ruger, but they wanted to push the 'scout rifle' which to me has way to short a barrel, and the stock might be beefy and heavy, will see. Performance aside, a 16.5" barrel should not be good on the ears, esp. when hunting w/o ear protection (although I often use plugs when hunting-to preserve what I still have). Hopefully Ruger will do the new matte Stainless in the above midbores, and a 338-06 would sell as well.

If the companies gave us the choices, both sides of the fence would be happy. Pick your flavor.

There is more to the physics than pure physical theory. For instance, the fast and slow barrel thing has already be mentioned and is certainly valid. Then there is the matter of a larger bearing surface giving more complete combustion with the slower burning powders in 338 as compared with the 35s, and the fact that slower powders are better in smaller diameter barrels up to a point, and that the 9.3s offer advantages over the 338s, 35s and 375s in presently available bullet offerings. Take a look at the BCs and SDs for the 9.3 bullets as compared to the 338s, 35s and 375s. There is also the possibility of non-canister powders the manufacturers have access to that we re-loaders don't. From the write ups and testing I have seen done, I believe that the 338 Federal is delivering velocities that are as close to the advertised velocities as we can reasonably expect. And that is pretty good performance. For Kyler's intended purposes, hunting wild boar in dense growth, a short action, fast handling rifle with a fairly short barrel length delivering leathl bullets of a fairly large diameter, ought to be right down the 338 Federal's ally...Rusty.

SAAMI lists the max average pressure (MAP) for the 35 Whelen and the 338-06 A-Square at the same pressure of their parent cartridge, the 30-06 Springfield, as 60Kpsi.

When did CIP increase the MAP for these cartridges?

Okay, so following some of the above logic about increasing the bore size to increase velocity I say we neck the 308 case up to .416. We should be able to get at least 4,000 fps!

Seriously, it makes sense that Bernoulli's principle could make up some of the difference but I still think they must be loading that new cartridge pretty hot if the advertised numbers are true.

Kyler