If a commercially loaded 150 grain cup and core from a 30-30 kills a deer, bang flop, can a premium 150 grain bullet kill any BETTER from the same rifle? roger

quote:

can a premium 150 grain bullet kill any BETTER from the same rifle

Not for my $$.

No, it can't or doesn't. Why does it matter? I like using premium bullets simply because I want to. If premiom bullets were not available, I would use whatever was available.

I like the results I get from the Barnes bullets better than the results I was getting from the Hornady bullets I was using.

I for one do not like massive wound channels or jellied internal organs, I just want what I am shooting to die with minimal meat destruction.

In all reality, premium bullets and even cup and core bullets have a long way to go in killing as many animals and/or people as lead bullets have.

All of us are looking for something that is better than what we have. If we weren't, we would still be using 45/70's and black powder.

Not in a 30-30. The 30-30 is one of the few cartridges where the bullet is designed especially for the velocity of the cartridge (because of tubular magazines). I grew up using a 30-30 for deer with 150gr bullets and there probably isn't anything that kills deer sized game as well and spoils less meat.
Do premiums work better in other cartridges? Yes. Consider that same 150gr bullet launched with the velocity of a 308 compared to a 30-378. A cup and core bullet can't reliably work with that kind of velocity variation. If it is designed with a thin enough jacket to expand at 2700fps it will probably fragment at 3400fps and likewise, if it is designed tough enough to hold together at the higher velocity, it may act like a solid when pushed slower.
A Partition, A Frame, TTSX, etc. is more reliable with those kinds of velocity variation.

Deer is a low threshold.
Now if you want to kill an elk or bear that's a different story.
"Premium" is too general.
Bullets are tools.
Use the right bullet.
The saying goes "use enough gun"
I would add "use the right bullet"

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If a commercially loaded 150 grain cup and core from a 30-30 kills a deer, bang flop, can a premium 150 grain bullet kill any BETTER from the same rifle? roger

From the same rifle, generally not.

In my experience softer bullets kill faster than harder bullets providing they get to the vitals.

Fastest non-bang/flop fallow doe kill I've had was from a 155 grain A-max at 2700 fps. It wobbled three steps and did a back flip, landing dead as a doornail.

On the other hand the 180 grain hornady interlock at the same speed tends to result in a 50-75 yard dash before they drop.

From what I have seen and read using a premium bullet is about making a cartridge punch above it's weight in some shape or form.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If a commercially loaded 150 grain cup and core from a 30-30 kills a deer, bang flop, can a premium 150 grain bullet kill any BETTER from the same rifle? roger

My 89 year old father who has a disabled hunting permit, shot a 300 pound (very fat) mule deer at about 50 yards from his wheel chair van with me as his legal back up. 30-30 carbine, given to him by a freind, was made in 1932. Remington 150 grain FN core lokt ammo.

Shot was slightly above the heart, and deer walked around a bit and then laid down. I walked up to it and finished it w a head shot. I recovered the bullet which had mushroomed and just barely fractured off the mushroom which was an intact ring shaped donghnut.

Hardly a bang flop, but as noted here, did not ruin much meat.

Am not sure a controlled expansion (premium) bullet would be any different at 30-30 velocity, but sure helps in a 300 win mag!

Andy

Normal to heavy weight cup and core bullets in normal calibers are designed for deer and generally work well for that purpose. Doesn't make them ideal for elk or moose though.

quote:

Doesn't make them ideal for elk or moose though.

Boy I guess all them folks that killed all them moose/elk and other critters BEFORE the premium bullets came along should feel damn Lucky.

I use Barnes bullets for all my hunting anymore and am happy with their perfomance, but millions of animals around the world have been killed with plain old pure lead bullets, and Winchester Silver Tips and Power Points and Remington Core-Locts are still killing stuff today.

Premium bullets are not needed for any round with a velocity of less than 2800 fps. A standard bullet that is fairly heavy for the caliber will work reliably for nearly all applications. However, there is nothing wrong with premium bullets especially for heavy game. They are just a bit of insurance and the expense is irrelevant unless you are shooting targets.

If standard bullets kill the animal, I'm sticking with them until they design a bullet that not only kills them but guts them out and skins them. To me this is like the person believing if they use premium gasoline they will get better mileage. Mileage is based on how many btu's you get. Premium gas has anti knock additives that don't produce btu's. If your car is not high compression and need these anti knock additives, it is counterproductive.

does a cased cartridge kill deer any better than a muzzle loader?

shesh, -- no, not really..

I think there is a place in huntiung for "a better bullet" or "more bullet".. But that doent nessicarily mean a premium price.

Where Deer are concerned, cup and core suits me just fine.. Even the soft lowly, prone to seperation speer hot cores..

Bang flop baby!! Every time..

I could see steping up to something more for certian situations though. And sometimes I do (love thos Accubonds).. But that would have to involve animals tougher than a deer..

As most folks here know, I am a many, many year fan of cup n'core bullets and the cartridges which work well with them.

Having said that, I still have to think about the cartridges I have and like which DON'T work all that great with standard bullets in all circumstances.

One is my .300 Weatherby. Another is my .257 Weatherby. Up close where velocities are still high, cup n'core bullets aren't really a great choice in either one compared to premium bullets.

Premium bullets give more assurance of good penetration to the game's "operating machinery". Yet they still perform well at long distances...which is why I have and use those cartridges...they work at both near and far.

So, I might even ask, "Is there any point to 'regular' bullets in big game hunting cartridges with muzzle velocities exceeding 3,200 fps?"

As I said somewhere else, the premium bullet craze is a response to the belted magnum craze. If you don't shot the latter, you don't need the former. Of course, if you do, you do!

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
As I said somewhere else, the premium bullet craze is a response to the belted magnum craze. If you don't shot the latter, you don't need the former. Of course, if you do, you do!

+1 Very well stated Oldsarge!

We keep hearing BS about hunters working together, so what damn difference does it make on what bullet a hunter wants to use as long as they are satisfied with the results?????

Is it more important to find lines of division, or try to work under the concept that each of us as hunters are entitled to our own choices as far as bullets and calibers are concerned?

Do premium bullets do anything that C&C bullets won't in regard to killing animal, No. Do premium bullets do anything that pure lead bullets have not done for centuries in regard to killing animals, No.

In my case premium bullets/Barnes bullets offer less meat destruction, good penetration, on a consistent basis.

What happened to the concept of the individual being able to choose the tool that they feel does the best job for them??????

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

So, I might even ask, "Is there any point to 'regular' bullets in big game hunting cartridges with muzzle velocities exceeding 3,200 fps?"

Not likely! roger

Let's all go back to spears and arrows!
Seriously even 120 years ago the hunters chose the latest and greatest. Cartridges and smokeless powder was vilified too I am sure.
Im not saying let's all have super lasers that kill from 3,000 yards away but it's a matter of style or marketers feeding on the insecurities and ignorance as usual.
I love my 45-70 but I would not want to shoot with black powder loads.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If a commercially loaded 150 grain cup and core from a 30-30 kills a deer, bang flop, can a premium 150 grain bullet kill any BETTER from the same rifle? roger

You're missing the point.

The more you respect the animal, the more expensive the bullet should be.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
does a cased cartridge kill deer any better than a muzzle loader?

shesh, -- no, not really..

At close range, (50yds or less) I've NEVER seen anything flatten a Whitetail like a .535 roundball that is propeled by 120gr of fffg out of the 35" barrel of my flintlock.

Even @ ranges up to & including 150yds, that combo will pass completely through on a broadside hit. The short blood trails that result from hits like that are usually easy to follow too.

But, when Mv exceeds 3000 fps, I prefer a bonded bullet.

Considering that bullets are the absolute cheapest component of the hunting equation I wil only use premium bullets while hunting. I believe in stacking the odds in my favor. I spend a lot more on the biscuit breakfast before a days hunt than on the bullet that may have to kill the buck of a lifetime. It's a no brainer in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid-:
Considering that bullets are the absolute cheapest component of the hunting equation I wil only use premium bullets while hunting. I believe in stacking the odds in my favor. I spend a lot more on the biscuit breakfast before a days hunt than on the bullet that may have to kill the buck of a lifetime. It's a no brainer in my book.

Yes, but sometimes premium bullet go clear through and some times they don't. Sometimes they expand too fast and sometimes they don't expand fast enough.

match the bullet to the velocity and the game. If used within it's design parameters, a regular cup and core bullet can be as effective as any premium. But there are circumstances where a premium bullet will perform better.

I've got the best of both worlds ,I use a Nosler Partition in a 45-70 !

Too expensive ? One round for a deer ?

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
match the bullet to the velocity and the gq
ame. If used within it's design parameters, a regular cup and core bullet can be as effective as any premium. But there are circumstances where a premium bullet will perform better.

X 6 or 7 roger

It depends. what shots do you take? With a 30-30 probably not, but if I were taking a Texas heart shot on even a Whitetail I would "prefer" a Nosler for instance. I have shot deer and elk early on with the 25-35, 250 Savage and 30-30 and they worked, but I only took broadside shots mostly standing at at under 200 yards. The old corelokts in these calibers were pretty close to premium bullets btw..

Today,on Elk and big animals with any caliber I definately want premium or even super premium bullets..I have seen a lot of failures with cup and core bullets over the years.

To those that don't think there is a need for premium bullets then so be it, but I remember the days when bullet failure was common unless the shot was broadside..Keep in mind that such bullets as the Hornady interlock, the Nosler Accubond, Woodleighs, and others are not just cup and core bullets anymore. The Barnes and GS customs are monolithics and not cup and core. Very few cup and cores exist today. Sierra is about it, they control with thickness of jacket and they come apart right well, but they work most of the time on broadside shots.

The cost of a Nosler Partition isn't that much more than a Sierra in the big picture considering $3.69 gas, and other costs involved in hunting...

I think I'll just keep using the best bullets out there for my hunting, seems to be good cheap insurance and it makes me feel secure and the cost isn't all that much considering.

Bottom line: I'll takes a premium every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
It depends. what shots do you take? With a 30-30 probably not, but if I were taking a Texas heart shot on even a Whitetail I would "prefer" a Nosler for instance. I have shot deer and elk early on with the 25-35, 250 Savage and 30-30 and they worked, but I only took broadside shots mostly standing at at under 200 yards. The old corelokts in these calibers were pretty close to premium bullets btw..

That was the gist of the initial question. Quartering away shots with any of the above mentioned cartridges wouldn't seem prudent even with PREMIUM(?????) bullets roger

quote:

can a premium 150 grain bullet kill any BETTER from the same rifle?

Well some suggestions otherwise aside, I have a few 'expert' friends who assure me that only premiums should ever be used on game. In fact, the most extreme fellow argues that the .30-30 is totally insufficent to kill deer reliably, he uses a .338 Win and Noslers for smallish Georgia white tail (I'm NOT kidding)!

Of course he's at a loss to explain how I consistanly make clean kills on the same deer with cup and core bullets fired from the .243, .308, .30-06 and .35 Rem.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
It depends. what shots do you take? With a 30-30 probably not, but if I were taking a Texas heart shot on even a Whitetail I would "prefer" a Nosler for instance. I have shot deer and elk early on with the 25-35, 250 Savage and 30-30 and they worked, but I only took broadside shots mostly standing at at under 200 yards. The old corelokts in these calibers were pretty close to premium bullets btw..

That was the gist of the initial question. Quartering away shots with any of the above mentioned cartridges wouldn't seem prudent even with PREMIUM(?????) bullets roger

I understand the gist refers to deer hunting, but in my case deer hunting means bigger deer. I'd prefer premium bullets every time in my region and recommend Barnes very strongly. The size of the deer, the size of the other game occuring locally and the variety of poor angle shots possible after the first shot is fired. Yes cup and core has killed many deer here as well as other game.

I shot an eland with standard PMP ammo (very basic bullet) and it was bang flop. Shot placement is the word.

For deer, no, not at all. Given reasonable shot placement a C&C will probably work better at 30-30 velocities. I could conceive of some shot angles where a 150 NP might be better, BUT that would be because the shooter screwed up the shot placement, or tried a azz on shot etc.

That being said I loaded up some 150 NP's for a old guy I know, he hunts everything with his Marlin and he feels better with the NP's on elk. Hey, he get a cow almost every year and they don't seem to get to far. He has broken through the shoulder and into the lungs at under 100yds and I have to wonder if a C&C would do that.

My own experience is that C&C can and do preform well on deer every time and can and do preform like crap on elk every once in a while. They can also make things "too interesting" with large black bears in smaller calibers for my taste.

A lot depends on the maker of the C&C bullet. I will not use Speer products any more because of one rather spectacular failure on a bull elk. Yeah, the animal died, but I had to chase it and it took WAY too many well placed shots to die. During the butchering I found too many little bits of bullet that never got to the vitals. I've had Hornady handgun bullets do the same thing on a bear.

Nosler Partitions, Accubonds and Norma Oryx absolutely no question the bullet did and will do everything I could ever want. Even at say $1.00 plus per bullet I consider them cheap insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If a commercially loaded 150 grain cup and core from a 30-30 kills a deer, bang flop, can a premium 150 grain bullet kill any BETTER from the same rifle? roger

Only if it shoots more accurately in the rifle

I think to simply say premium vs non is painting with too broad a brush..

Too many variables to take into account..

Which is more suitable for an Elk load, a 130 gn barnes X from a 270 or a 225 gn Hornady from a 338-06? Not to put down the 270 or Barnes bullets, but Personaly I would take the 338/Hornady combo, reguardless of the shot.. Hell, I remember when these big honkin cup and cores were called "Barnes premiums".. And their prices were commensurate with the "premium" moniker.. The fact is bigger bullets for tougher animals has always worked and it still does reguardless of bullet design..

I used to hunt deer exclusivly with a 7mm mag and 145 gn speer hot cores. I dont think that means I respected my quarry any less because It was a combination that I believed in and the results are indisputable.. But I do remember the 220 swift wonder deer round debacle..

I think the bottom line is simply to use good judgment. One cannot say this bullet is better for the job than that without first taking into account the rifle, the quarry, the shot etc. etc..

quote:

Can a premium bullet kill any better

A number of years ago I developed a deadometer...yes...a device to measure just how dead a deer was.

I had a digital display with five possible settings....
1. JBD...(just barely dead)
2. SDT...(slightly deader than that)
3. ADD...( average dead deer)
4. PDD....(pretty damn dead)
5. DTS....(deader than ....) well you know

I correlated the readings on hundreds of dead deer and hung out at check stations to check others deer and ask what bullet they used.

One time when I tested the deer there was no reading and I promptly told the guy that his deer wasn't truly dead yet....and it was then that I noticed his .223....well another story...

At the end of the study it was clear that A-Frames and Northforks was the deadlier bullets followed closely by the pack of bonded bullets....then Hot cores, interlocks, Gamekings, and last on the ladder of deadliness was A-Max and other target bullets......as might have been forecast.

I took the device to the patient office to get a patient and was told they would issue one only when they quit laughing.....that was two years ago and still no patient!

quote:

I took the device to the patient office to get a patient and was told they would issue one only when they quit laughing.....that was two years ago and still no patient! Big Grin

That's because you should have taken it to the PATENT office. But if you are patient I'm sure they they will get around to taking care of you.

Love your Churchill quote Vapo..

A quatering shot with any of the calibers I mentioned even the 25-35 is a deadly shot with or without premiums on deer anyway, not on elk.

I take the shot I'm offered so I like premiums. Where I hunt elk for instance and some places I hunt deer you are hardly ever afforeded the luxury of a broadside shot.

If your a stand hunter, then the picture changes, you have that luxury.

I normally use a caliber large enough and with premium bullets that I can take a Texas heart shot or most any shot if need be..I have no problem with that and it is a very quick killing shot as it tears up everything inside, and actually does not ruin as much meat as a broadside shot as a rule, and does not contaminate meat as some profess, unless its improperly cleaned. It is almost always an instant kill, as more damage is rendered to the animal.

I understand that any cup and core bullet will kill cleanly with the ideal broadside shot, so will the very light calibers, so what? much of hunting is not ideal in that respect.

In my exprience absolutely not.

In fact my exprience shows the opposite most of the deer I have either had to follow up with a dog or not found have been shot with premium bullets, Barnes bullets being by far the worst offender of poor terminal performance.

A 30-06 with or without a premium bullet will pass through a deer with a quartering shot, and most of the plains game I have shot. A 30-30 will also, that is about 2 ft of flesh unless your deer are bigger than those I have shot over the years. A 30-06 will lay an elk to the ground with a premium like a Nosler..

I don't normally use Barnes bullets as I agree they have been an offender with me, but many folks love them and I have had great success with the Barnes 75 gr. (discontinued) bullet in my 6x45 on Antelope and deer. All my failures have been with the .308 and 300 H&H, for whatever that is worth.

But think about your statement, a quartering or going away shot on a light animal like a deer or antelope tears up more tissue and stops more body functions than the broadside shot does if you know the angles and take advantage of that, and you may in all likely hood break them down in the bone structure. Perhaps your not using enough gun is my question. I have not had to use a dog or follow up on deer and antelope in years, and I take whatever shot I am presented with.