quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

using a 45 grain Barnes X bullet, dramatically increases the chances of anchoring elk....

Although this statement was made with a large tongue in a large cheek, the underlying truth makes a good case for using premium bullets rather than bullets with thin, unbonded jackets, filled with soft lead cores. Should one have to shoot an elk with a 223, what would you rather do it with? What will be most reliable? Note: Not infallible, most reliable.

Ask a ballistically educated person wearing body armor, what they are much more concerned about:

a./ someone firing at them with a HKmp5 using conventional pistol rounds....or
b./someone with a HKmp7 firing the miniscule[.17cal] 4.6x30mm cartridge, with its 25gn hardened steel "penetrator" projectile..

do many deer wear body armor?

quote:

Can a premium bullet kill any better

Bartsche did not specify whether the context is only for deer or whether people are included. It seems that the question should have been: "Can a premium bullet kill any better when used in a 30-30 on deer?"

As it stands, it is rather open and could include deer wearing body armor.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
do many deer wear body armor?

If you feel the measured penetrative ability of a 17cal bullet than can punch through titanium plate and 20 layers of kevlar combined,[and still kill the thing behind it] is of no relevance [to you] fine.

To me it demonstrates how bullet materials-construction definitely make a difference.

Now considering animals are made of living tissue,...should people test for bullet penetration in inanimate media like wood,paper,water,balllistic-gel? ...or is it all just a waste of time?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

Can a premium bullet kill any better

Bartsche did not specify whether the context is only for deer or whether people are included.

Good point !, We've got a lot of people!! roger

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
do many deer wear body armor?

They must,from some of the post I read about the op making a "perfect heart shot" only to have the deer run away never to be found.

The problem with this question about premium bullets, from one angle, is that it asks a general question about bullets, the performance of which varies under different circumstances.

Maybe there is no correct general answer which fits all those circumstances?

Likewise, some of the answers we give may be too general also.

For insrtance the one about .17 bullets which penetrate titaniuum and kevlar. Well, that's interesting information but only has limited applicability to the question of deadliness.

The question isn't whether a .17 bullet will EVER kill anything, but whether it is even appropriate to begin with on the game we commonly hunt. I would contend that it isn't, if our game is hippo, rhino, elephant, buffalo, and numerous other big game animals. I would also contend that on animals the size of prairie dogs, almost any centerfire round's .17 bullet that holds together long enough to get to them is capable of killing them very quickly.

At the same time, I would also argue that ability to penetrate titanium is not really very germaine to our discussion. I have a little 7x33 Sako which quite consistently penetrates 1/4" steel metallic silhouettes at 100 yards with its factory 77 gr hardball ammo, leaving 3/8" to 1/2" holes completely through them about as cleanly as a hole can be punched. But it won't reliably punch through a deer from any angle. (Sometimes it will, but you can't count on it happening very often.)

That failure appears to be because deer are composed of very elastic materials which "give" with the initial blow and then return to their more or less original shape unless struck with a great deal more power than will penetrate 1/4" of steel (particularly their skin, but also their flesh are elastic, though to different degrees).

So, this discussion opens up a lot of opportunities for thought, but is apparently when it comes to a single definitive general answer.

JUST PLAIN WOW! roger

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
At the same time, I would also argue that ability to penetrate titanium is not really very germaine to our discussion.

Penetration into Ti & Kevlar is no more or less relevant than penetration tests in more common inanimate test media like paper,water,wood and ballistic-gel.....none of which truly simulate the physics of living tissue/its reaction to projectile impact....Yet much testing/comparing of bullets is done that way...so what you say about Ti & Kevlar, should also apply to them, ie; that they should only have limited application to the question of deadliness.

It has been discovered what a tough .17cal projectile will do to live tissue/how lethal it is, after penetrating Ti & Kevlar. but to this day, we are still left wondering what a hunting projectile will do to game after penetrating test plywood,water jugs and wet telephone books.

It was not to suggest that .17 cal should be used for a wide range of hunting,[but as I said before] simply to demonstrate how bullet construction & materials can make a big difference....thats if one considers penetration,a contributing factor in its effectiveness/ability to kill.

Tests done in bone-impregnated media, showed .257roberts100tsx3200mv to out-penetrate a .358win200NF2650mv.... by a fair margin.[21" vs 14"]
Sure the .358 had a larger wound channel,..but theres no doubt that 21" of smaller dia. wound channel penetration[that reaches the vitals], is more deadly/lethal than a larger dia. wound channel created by a bullet that may not reach the vitals.

So what one has is a notably smaller bore-with notably lighter weight bullet-with notably less initial momentum, that can well prove to be more lethal than a larger more powerful bore, in situations where a certain amount of penetration is required to get the job done.

Trax -

I don't particularly disagree one iota with ANYTHING you said in your LAST post (just before this one). I was just trying to point out how far afield a lot of the info in this thread is from being EITHER very specifically useful or relevant on on the subject of whether premium bullets "kill better" than regular ones.

Neither .17 or .577 bullets are very apprapo in evaluating the usefulness of premium bullets in the calibers most of us hunt ordinary local game with. Neither are bullets which are specifically designed to penetrate things like armour plate.

I personally think that in each case (bad possible pun there) we need to be more specific as to what we are hunting, under what conditions, and with which cartridge, loaded and shot at what velocity, at what distance from the gun, and in what type of terrain, to get any very useful answers(s).

I'm pretty sure you agree with that too, nein?

In some combos of the above factors, premiumn bullets are very much better, and in other situations it doesn't make any signficant difference at all if we do or don't use premium pills.

Without such info and confining the answer(s) to specific circumstances, we are just making noise rather than saying anything useful.

AC,

the .17 cal bullets I talk of, are created with the primary purpose of killing, it just that they can be first required[and so designed] to face major resistance/penetrate body armor, before they actually do so.

And I gather premium hunting bullets are also made with the idea that they can better cope with any major resistance they may encounter[shoulder joint?]..permitting them to advance to the vitals for a kill.

Theres one thing for sure, a .17cal thats designed to penetrate armor and then zip through a persons heart, is more lethal than a .17 cal varmint bullet or .40cal conventional pistol bullet that get stopped in layers of kevlar.

I simply used that specialised .17cal example to reinforce the example Gerard used when he mentioned about a situation where one is forced to shoot an Elk with a . 224cal centre fire,...i.e.; that a premium bullet would be more reliable & trusted in such circumstances.[that could also apply to a 270win or 300magnum, using ballistic tips vs A-Frames]

But as I've said previously, I can't necessarily say that a premium bullet will kill better than a non-premium, assuming both reach the vitals.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
AC,

the .17 cal bullets I talk of, are created with the primary purpose of killing, it just that they can be first required[and so designed] to face major resistance/penetrate body armor, before they actually do so.

Of course.

And my point is that body armour will not stop some bullets that the flexibility of skin and or flesh WILL stop, under certain very specific circumstances.

And I gather premium hunting bullets are also made with the idea that they can better cope with any major resistance they may encounter[shoulder joint?]..permitting them to advance to the vitals for a kill.

Not neccesarily. Some premium bullets are not designed with much more in mind than simply keeping them from flying apart on impact with flesh or skin. Some, of course are designed mainly for penetration of animals' flesh, skin and bones (solids?), others are designed for penetration AND expansion ( e.g. A-frames or Partitions), and some just for expansion (to prevent over-penetration in urban environments or when shooting small varmints in relatively populated areas).

Different premium bullets can be and are designed for different purposes. That's another reason "flat" (all-encompassing) statements aren't really very useful. One has to deal with specific cirecumstances, not generalities.

Theres one thing for sure, a .17cal thats designed to penetrate armor and then zip through a persons heart, is more lethal than a .17 cal varmint bullet or .40cal conventional pistol bullet that get stopped in layers of kevlar.

Of course.

I simply used that specialised .17cal example to reinforce the example Gerard used when he mentioned about a situation where one is forced to shoot an Elk with a . 224cal centre fire,...i.e.; that a premium bullet would be more reliable & trusted in such circumstances.[that could also apply to a 270win or 300magnum, using ballistic tips vs A-Frames]

But as I've said previously, I can't necessarily say that a premium bullet will kill better than a non-premium, assuming both reach the vitals.

Nor can anyone else. That was my point. This whole exercize is one of futility. In certain circumstances premium bullets greatly enhance one's ability to kill animals quickly, or even kill them at all. In other circumstances premium bullets don't make any tangible difference.

So to ask if premium bullets kill better is not a valid question, IF one is expecting a flat yes or no response. There is no valid "Yes, always" answer, and no "Never" valid answer. The useful answer will always have to be "yes under these circumstances" while at the same time time being "No, not under these other circumstances". So, both "yes", and "no" can be both dead right and dead wrong.

I know you and I agree on that, even if you don't seem to see that we are both saying the same thing. But our answer isn't a flat Yes or No which is what was originally asked, though probably not intended....'cause I know Roger agrees with us too. He has been shooting too long not to. He probably just intentionally prefers to limit his shots on game to circumstances which don't require or benefit from premium bullets.

quote:

In certain circumstances premium bullets greatly enhance one's ability to kill animals quickly, or even kill them at all. In other circumstances premium bullets don't make any tangible difference.

In other words, premium bullets can be relied on to kill where standard bullets will fail to kill. Does that not make a premium bullet a better killer?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

In certain circumstances premium bullets greatly enhance one's ability to kill animals quickly, or even kill them at all. In other circumstances premium bullets don't make any tangible difference.

In other words, premium bullets can be relied on to kill where standard bullets will fail to kill. Does that not make a premium bullet a better killer?

NO! roger

Well, I suppose you could ignore gravity as well, but that does not make it go away.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Well, I suppose you could ignore gravity as well, but that does not make it go away.

Are you just ignoring the "original" premise ( 30-30 150grain factory bullet) and just making a cover all case for premium bullets? No gravity intended . roger

Gentlemen, the next subject for debate starting on 1 January, 2012 will be; "How many angels can dance on the point of a pin?"

Seriously, dead is dead. It make no matter if the animal was killed with a sharp stick or if someone drops an atom bomb on it. It's bloody well dead.

As we're discussing the merits of premium vs non=premium bullets, and I freely admit tham mot here have a hell of a lot more experience on the larger big game not only here in North America but elsewhere, so you must forgive me when I say if the bullet regardles of type hits the "sticking place", the animal dies and if it doesn't hit it, the animal gets away.
I've only used a premium bullet exactly three times in over 50 years pf primarily deer hunting. Four if you count a coyote I shot with a 130 gr. Nosler partition. One big Nevada Mule Deer with the .270 and he died. One cow elk with a .35 caliber Barnes TSX and she died. The one that didn't die better was a huge Nevada Mule Deer that weighed 296 pounds in the quarters on a certified butcher's scale. That one took three shots from a 30-06 shooting 180 gr. Nosler Partitions, the first bullet creasing the heart, shot number two through the lungs and shot number three was used to break it's neck. I did a makeshift autopsy when gutting it and the heart had a nice deep groove in the top of the muscle, the lungs looked like I'd poked it with a pencil, just a small hole in and out and well the neck bone had about a one inch hole though it. Guess it was the one that did the trick.
Kind of makes me look right kindly on all those way too soft Sierras that never fail to bring my deer down. Or on those core shedding Speers everyone gripes about.
For the record, on the big buck, no shot was closer than 35 yards and the farthest was maybe 50 yards. So two out of three I suppose ain't all that bad. The only failures I've ever had were with a 175 gr. Federal factory 7x57 load and a 140 gr. 7MM Nosler Ballistic tip. The Federal penciled on through and the BT blew up on a rib.
My thought s are pick the bullet you want touse and go get game.
Now about those angels and that pin?????????
Paul B.

quote:

if the bullet regardles of type hits the "sticking place", the animal dies and if it doesn't hit it, the animal gets away.

Not true, you give the answer yourself.

quote:

The Federal penciled on through and the BT blew up on a rib.

Would you rather have a $200 Prostitute or a $2,000 prostitute? Both will do the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
So to ask if premium bullets kill better is not a valid question,

Im not so sure.

The question asked, can they be better killers, not if they will make the animal any more dead.

Killing is a process, death is an end result.

Kill "better"...can mean to result in a more rapid process to death, correct?

Its like asking;... are some cartridges/bullets better stoppers than some others?,
..if its effective at stopping something quicker- its generally considered a better "stopper".

...and if a bullet kills quicker, it can be viewed as a better "killer".
[thats if a more rapid process to death is part of the desired effect,not that the animal will be any more dead]

It may depend how important a rapid death is to you.....If your hunting open areas where you don't mind too much if the animals takes a few more yards to drop/expire, compared to thick areas or dangerous situations where one may really stress the importance of a most rapid stop/death of the animal.



Using the 30/30 as example:

assuming both premium and non-premium reach the vitals, a monometal like the CEB Raptor, designed to shed its petals[at 1700fps] as HV secondary projectiles that radiate out causing more extensive organ damage, may just prove to be a more rapid-[better?] killer, than ones regular 30/30 core-lokt or powerpoint, that typically hold together.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would you rather have a $200 Prostitute or a $2,000 prostitute? Both will do the same thing.

And a Factory super-grade M70 will kill an Elk just as dead as an Echols Classic...but which would you rather have "the pleasure of fondling"...

Boom Stick,
Neva, ah say neva, will I allow you to pick my prostitute! Given my druthers I'll take the $2000 babe every time and I'll take that 50 Cent bullet every time..

I don't even see how this discussion could be taking place, much less have this number of posts, its ridiculas, the premium bullet is better, don't use them if you don't want to but c'mon, they are more dependable and if one does not know that then one has not hunted as much as he claims..

quote:

Would you rather have a $200 Prostitute or a $2,000 prostitute? Both will do the same thing.

Bad analogy, Boomy. Which one is most likely to give you SD disease? When you pay more, in virtually all walks of life, you buy more reliability, assurance and quality.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

Would you rather have a $200 Prostitute or a $2,000 prostitute? Both will do the same thing.

Bad analogy, Boomy. Which one is most likely to give you SD disease? When you pay more, in virtually all walks of life, you buy more reliability, assurance and quality.

That was my point.
They both do the same thing but one does it better and cleaner.

Point taken.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

I don't even see how this discussion could be taking place, much less have this number of posts, its ridiculas, the premium bullet is better, don't use them if you don't want to but c'mon, they are more dependable and if one does not know that then one has not hunted as much as he claims..

Ray, Truth up. Do you use premium bullets in your 25-35 . roger

Bartsche,
Only because premium bullets are not available for that old dog, and I don't shoot far with it.I have often wished for a 110 gr. flat nose monolithic.

BUT I do use factory Barnes-X flat nose HP. in my 30-30s and they always make two holes in a deer and even in elk on broadside shots..The WW folks came to Simmerlys in Wendell Idaho and had an ammo sale and I bought 20 boxes of those factory loaded Barnes X 30-30 ammo for $6.00 per box..good stuff, but you can't recover the bullets until they bounce off the main st. stop light in Yellowpine, Idaho..

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

if the bullet regardles of type hits the "sticking place", the animal dies and if it doesn't hit it, the animal gets away.

Not true, you give the answer yourself.

quote:

The Federal penciled on through and the BT blew up on a rib.

Naw, it just proves there are always exceptions to the rule. With the first deer, I found it the next day after the coyotes and birds ate their fill. The deer died, just not where I could find in in time.
I'll never know how the second deer ended up because I destroyed my right knee climbig up to where I could pick up the blood trail. from the blood right behind the shoulder, I would have to say the shot was properly placed. I figure the deeer probably made it to the bottom of the gully and dies there. Damn well can't recover an animal if you can't walk. I was just a bit piss because my hunting partners refused to go look for the deer. That's the second time in 50 plus years of deer hunting that I've fed the coyotes and it still leaves me feeling down when I think about it.
Paul B.

***** the 30-30 bullets are velocity specific and they have improved for that caliber for many years, at least from a hunting big game standpoint, to the point of perfection..

Spoken by a true GURU indeed! Can perfection be bettered??? Not according to Webster. Oh what joy! The right answer. roger

quote:

That's the second time in 50 plus years of deer hunting that I've fed the coyotes and it still leaves me feeling down when I think about it.

It could have been 'never in 50 years' had one not 'penciled on through and the BT blew up on a rib.'

quote:

they have improved......... for many years............ to the point of perfection.

The moment you think that something has arrived at perfection and cannot be improved upon, you have arrived at a dangerous place. Prepare to be surprised.

Four young bucks. 2011

3000 + fps 140 gr 7mm Hornady Ballistic tipped bullet. Hand loads. Quartering on shot through the onside shoulder, behind the shoulder bone. The deer ran 80 yards, up hill. Expanding bullet forced contents of paunch into the entry wound. Discarded the shoulder. Lungs were jelly and top of heart missing, tough deer.

2600+ 140 gr Barnes 7mm TSX Hand loads. Broadside behind the shoulders pass through. 50 yard death run. No meat loss.

25-06 Remington 120 factory loads. Broadside through the shoulders behind the bone. 50 yard death run. Some trim loss.

Remington 150 gr corelokt from a Mod 94 30-30. Shot was taken from above on a creek bottom. Shot to pass through the lungs into the farside shoulder. No snow, no blood, long search, lost deer.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would you rather have a $200 Prostitute or a $2,000 prostitute? Both will do the same thing.

How about 4 at $500 dollars each?

Quadrupling the chances of something bad happening.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would you rather have a $200 Prostitute or a $2,000 prostitute? Both will do the same thing.

How about 4 at $500 dollars each?

Ghoobie knows how to party.

I'm just glad I don't need to pay to play.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Quadrupling the chances of something bad happening.

Your looking at the cup as if it's half empty Gerard!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would you rather have a $200 Prostitute or a $2,000 prostitute? Both will do the same thing.

How about 4 at $500 dollars each?

Ghoobie knows how to party.

I'm just glad I don't need to pay to play .

Following the bullet analogy, that's because you're the pimp! We mere mortals have to try and work out what gives us the best bang for our buck, if you'll excuse the pun...

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
do many deer wear body armor?

ALL OF THEM..
at least according to any poor hunter...