OK, I'm still looking and found a couple of rifles locally, both are in the same price range. One is a Sako L61R in 30-06. It has a 24" barrel with iron sights and the smith has already ordered a McMillan Classic stock for it. The other is a stainless Winchester in 300wsm with a Bansner High Tech stock on it, it has a 24" barrel, no iron sights but weighs 8.25 with a 3.5-10x40 Leupold (scope not include in purchase price) and Talley rings. So for deer and caribou hunting which do you like best?

Hey Mark,

I will stay with my initial thoughts that the 300 wsm is the way to go. It offers a nice package, with a good 3x9 scope, it will do all you want it to do.

Of course the '06 will work welll on deer and caribou, but the increased range of the 300 wsm, IMO, provides a little more versitility. I think paired with your 35 Whelen, you have a very nice battery for anything in NA and for all plains game.

The 30'06 Sako and don't look back. If you need a WSM-like performance fix you can always buy some Federal High Energy or Hornady Light Magnums.

30-06....real easy

The sako is twice the rifle,that the standard winchester is. The late model M70 was and is a cobbled piece of shit and over priced.

Like it or not,the 300wsm offers very little over the 06 and the wsm doesn't feed as well either. There's plenty of smiths working on feed problems with the wsm daily.Especially in the crf.

c'mon tell us how you really feel. That Winchester is such a hunk of junk.
Don't own a Sako, wouldn't have one. Nothing sako makes will ever replace the pre-64 model 70, IMHO.

They priced this a bit high, but I would look at this high quality push feeder:
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/r3944.htm
All you need is a factory swing mount from Heym and replacement for that tiny scope.

my 1st & still most practical hunting rifle is a a111 actioned sako with a hart #3 barrel, standard brown precision stock, redfield bases leupold low rings & leupold 2.5x8 scope. It weighs 8.25 pounds a simular remington 700 weighs 7.75 pounds. Advantages of the sako over the remington..1.Better bottom metal, 2.Less work to make shoot well & a more old fashion craftsman feel, 3.possibly a better extraction/ejection system. Disadvantages 1.the factory rings force the scope to be too far back thus cut forheads & poor focus, this can be resolved with warren rings but they are out of production, personally I do not like the Leupold/ burris 1 piece ring base combo.2.because of the extractor the bolt movement is not as smooth 3. the extra 1/2 pound of weight. If you go with the sako shoot me an email I probably have a few extra warren & sako ring sets.

I have several rifles built on the control feed pre & post 64 actions I am happy with them all my only stock production rifles are 2 new model super grades. The only problem I have had was with a 1st year 300 win mag that locked up & winchester replaced it. I have no experience with the wsm but have lots with the 30'06.

quote:

Originally posted by Paolo9,5x73:
They priced this a bit high, but I would look at this high quality push feeder:
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/r3944.htm
All you need is a factory swing mount from Heym and replacement for that tiny scope.

Oooh, me LIKE! All but the price tag.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
The sako is twice the rifle,that the standard winchester is. The late model M70 was and is a cobbled piece of shit and over priced.

Like it or not,the 300wsm offers very little over the 06 and the wsm doesn't feed as well either. There's plenty of smiths working on feed problems with the wsm daily.Especially in the crf.

Sir,

funny enough, the consumer sets the price of the line... that is, the horrific inflation (ego-flation) since FN annouced they are closing the plant.

the latest made "classic" rifles are as fine a rifle as wincheser has made, and , well, are "CRF" so everything from 64 forward can not even be compared to them.

overpriced? only since the short sighted have been paying a premium for them, until someone else comes around and buys the license to make.

if fyou are getting near WSM out of a 30-06, please wear a flahing sign at the range, so I know to get back into my car and get away from a pipebomb.

Loading with the SAME reloading practices, case volume always wins. Which is why the 300 webby beats the 300HH.

now, feeding... there's quite a few smiths working on getting wsm CONVERTED guns feeding right, but the geometery of making a squat case feed is no different with it's a 308 improved or a 300 wsm. if a smith knows what he's doing, it's pretty easy to fix.

Jeffeosso said,

quote:

if fyou are getting near WSM out of a 30-06, please wear a flahing sign at the range, so I know to get back into my car and get away from a pipebomb.

Allow me to disagree. Take the time to run current 30-06 ammo over a chronograph from a rifle with the standard 22" barrel and I think you will find that it doesn't even come near advertised velocities. I can only speak for Winchester brand in the 180 gr. Silvertip, but using two rifles, one in .308 Win. shooting the 180 Silvertip (.308 ammo naturally)and the 30-06 in another, guess what? The .308 was only 10 FPS slower than the 30-06 ammo at 2610 FPS. Both test rifles had 22" barrels. I didn't even get close to advertised velocities in the 30-06 until I used a Ruger #1 with 26" barrel. One of these days I'll have to splurge and try a box from federal and Remington. Might prove to be intersting.
So, "souping" up the good old 30-06 is definitely an option using a modern currently made firearm. The fact that Federal made, for a while anyway, a High Energy load that was so close to factory .300 H&H specs as to be scary and that Hornady made what they called a Light magnum load for the 30-06 that did the same leads me to believe that hikeing the horse power in the 30-06 is not only an option but perfectly doable using proper loading techniques and very careful attention towards pressure signs and chronograph data.
My point being this. If a Winchester M70, Ruger 77, Remington 700 or one of the SAKOs is capable of holding the pressure of, say a .300 Winchester Magnum at 60K plus PSI, why can't that same action (you choose) not be able to handle a 30-06 round loaded to that same general pressure area? In fact, the actual bolt thrust would be less from the 30-06 than from the .300 magnum.
At one time, gun writer John Wooters once wrote that he'd worked up a load using a 150 gr. bullet to 3,200 FPS in a 24" barreled 30-06 that had a 1 in 12" twist rate to the barrel. I forget what powder he said he used, but for some reason W-760 sticks in my mind. That's definitely in .300 magnum territory.
Now, if you don't want to try experimenting along those lines, I have no problem with that attitude. One has to go with one's comfort level. But to say that I might be shooting off a pipe bomb is not quite accurate. Any of my very warm 30-06 loads were worked up in over 100 degree heat here in Arizona. I measure the case head, the expansion ring and monitor the chronograph data very closely. I feel that any load that proves to be safe by my stanards of measurement on a very hot day willc ertainly prove safe at the cooler tempertures of my hunting seasons, which BTW, may still be in the low 80s come late afternoon.In roughly 50 plus years of handloading ammo, I can count pressure problems like a blown primer on the fingers of one hand, and most of those were in my early stages in learning how to reload ammo.
My point is this. Yes, you can safely load the 30-06 to a higher level than factory or what can be found in the loading manuals. SAAMI has set the standard for the 30-06 which is deliberately held low in deference to the old weak low number Springfields and 1895 Winchesters. I load my 1895 Browning in 30-06 to no higher than factory levels and use a round nose 180 gr. Sierra to diffrentiate that ammo from the hot loads made for my bolt action rifles.
Paul B.

There are plenty of factory 300wsm's that need reworking to get them to feed properly.The comparison to a .308win jeff,is totally irrelavant.

The quality of the late M70 is junk. A local metalsmith has a steady stream of rewelds on late M70's. The bolt handle is held in place by splines. These splines strip and you end up with a bolt handle that lifts,but the bolt stays put. Real quality.

The 300wsm offers around 100 to 150 fps over the 06 in the same barrel lengths. Like I said not much of an advantage. I get 2800fps out of my 06, with 180's. I've got 2900 to 2925 out of the 300wsm with 180's.

Paul,
I think we actualy agree... your results with factory 30-06 take you to 2610fps... I have chrono'ed factory WSM, in a winchester featherweight and a super shadow, and got slightly OVER factory rated.. about 7fps average but higher.

there's no beating cubic inches. Yes, you can beat a low pressure round by loading HOT... see the 376 steyr vs 375HH... but if you load them both equally hot, the larger case always wins.

no one with a 180 has gone even near 3200 FPS in a 30-06... but they have gotten close to 3100 with a 150... using rel22 and/or win760

30-06 180gr
2825, 24" barrel, quickload at saami pressure.

300wsm 180gr
2825, 24" barrel, quickload at saami pressure.
3012 ... and factory is 298something.

you just can't beat cubic inches

shredder.
the man said you can load a 30-06 to 300wsm .. it can't be done. He said they don't feed, that's rubbish, and it's just a follower away on the first ones to feed as good as the new ones. The 308 improved actually (remember, i do feeding work) is exactly the same feeding issues. and spines on a bolt stripping? sure.. if you tried to load a 30-06 to faster than a factory 300 wsm, you would get a sticky bolt and could strip the spines...

then again, the rear axel on ALL rear wheel drive cars are held on by splines... don't get the point on that one.

other than don't load a 30-06 to try and match a factory WSM load

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
The 300wsm offers around 100 to 150 fps over the 06 in the same barrel lengths. Like I said not much of an advantage.

DO WHAT?
150fps is the difference from a 458 winmag and a 458lott, a 470nitro and a 470 capstick...I've had guys pay me to rechamber 7remmag to 7STWs and pay for feeding work for what amounted to that.

150FPS is 5% faster... which requires a 12% larger case to go the 150fps faster at the same pressure...

150 not MUCH of an advantage? Sir, that's less than the spread from 300 savage to 30-06 factory loads.

jeffe

The splines on the M70 have and will strip. The solution to fixing the problem,is welding the handle when it occurs.

The 300wsm doesn't feed as well as the 06 based cartridges and I could care less wether you believe it or not. Plenty of riflesmiths work on this problem daily.

As for the 150 fps differance between the 300 and 06. Its not enough performance gain to amount to anything in the field.

The fact that you sucker people into paying you for this type of minimal gain jeff. Is a testament to how stupid people are.

quote:

The 300wsm doesn't feed as well as the 06 based cartridges and I could care less wether you believe it or not.

What a load of absolute crap!

Obviously a man with plenty of WSM experience ?
I think not! just someone who listens to rumours and repeats them weather they are true or not.

The 2 worst feeding rifles i've owned were both chambered in 30-06 based cases, one was a 30-06 pre 64 action, not one of the best actions in my oppinion, the other was a mod 700 in 270.

All of the WSM's i've had personal experience have fed as smoothly or better than other cartridges, from a variety of actions too, that i've used and that includes M70, A-bolts and a mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
As for the 150 fps differance between the 300 and 06. Its not enough performance gain to amount to anything in the field.

The fact that you sucker people into paying you for this type of minimal gain jeff. Is a testament to how stupid people are.

Sledder,
you arguement doesn't really stand, does it, in fact, 150s is about the MOST difference between commerical rounds.. and if those gains are "so dumb" why aren't we all still shooting the 8x57/??

all this use ABOUT 150.. 100 is also "about".. and 150 is ABOUT the most you get with ackley improved rounds.

the 30-30 loads within ABOUT 150 fps of the 30-40krag which is within 150 fps of the 300 savage, which is within 150 fps the 308 WHICH IS 150FPS SLOWER than the 30-06 (talk about "dumb" in your book) which is within 150 fps of the 300HH , which is within 150 fps of the 300 win/308 norma/30-338 which is within 150 of the 300 weatherby, ...

So, let's see...
7x30 which is within 150 fps of the 7x57 which is within 150fps of the 708, which is within 150 fps of the 280/7mm brennke/284 winchester, which is within 150fps 7rem, which is within 150fps of the 7x61sh which is within 150 fps of the 7 weatherby, which is within 150 fps of the 7 STW

or, the 45/70 which is within 150 fps of the 45/120, which is within 150 fps of the 450 marlin, which is within 150 fps of the 458winmag which is within 150 fps of the 458 lott, which is within 150 fps of the 460 weatherby

this goes on and on and on...

Or, to put a fine point on it, if you are shooting anything other than the 8x57 or 30/30 you too are falling into the same "dumb people" trap of commericialism that you are pointing a finger at everyone else.

Splined winchester bolts striping out? aint arguing it's happening, or not, but I ain't seen it... then again, this is the first post I've ever read of winchester bolts coming off.. everyone else calls the remington into question.. is that what you actually meant?

then again, failure modes are generally limited in the extreme, or they are repaired in the production lines as cost effective saves.

and, yeah, if someone is unwilling to pay 14.95 for a new follower, they will be paying gunsmithing to fix the feeding the the first WSMS... be they savage, browning, ruger, sako, or even a winchester... take about someone suckering themselves!!

Your statement that *I* sucker people into making changes for what is MORE than the normal step between rounds, is bullsh!t and speculation. you are arguing for the sake of defending your position, not experience or seeking to understand.

thanks for assuming someone doing EXACTLY what someone asked them to do is somehow a cheat... right after you post about gunsmiths working on wsm based rifles not feeding... without replacing the follower first.

jeffe

We all could be shooting a 8x57 and still get the same performance as dozens of other popular calibers. The reason we all don't shoot a 8x57,has more to do with marketing and personal preferance then performance on game.

Americans want variety and are willing to pay for it. We have the luxury of surplus income in most cases and enjoy pissing it away.

I could hunt a lifetime with the .308win in north america and never be under gunned.

The 7-08 is every bit the cartridge on game that the .280 is and I've yet to see the 7mag outperform the .270/280 on game. The more I shoot these three cartridges,the more I agree with Jack O'connor. There isn't an ounce of differance in killing power.

What exactly does the lott and weatherby offer over the standard .458 win.in game performance? If you talk to guys who actually use these cartridges on game,the answer is more recoil and less shooting practice. The whole attraction to the lott,is you can buy it in a production M77 or No.1 and the CZ. You'll still find far more .458win mags in the field,because they actually offer usable performance and availibilty.

With the velocity of the 30/06 you can get reliable bullet exspansion and penetration out to 500 yards. This equates to about 200 yards farther then most people can shoot and 300 yards farther then the majority of game is shot.

As for you suckering people jeff. If the shoe fits wear it.

Gunsmiths are in the business to make a living. Therefore,most will do anything for money,provided they can do it reliably,and not have to redo their work,which costs them. Especially custom work.

When you start talking to a reputable gunsmith about their personal guns,most of them wouldn't own half the shit their customers do.But they'll gladly work on these weapons for their customers.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
We all could be shooting a 8x57 and still get the same performance as dozens of other popular calibers. The reason we all don't shoot a 8x57,has more to do with marketing and personal preferance then performance on game.

This is the entire ball of wax, isn't? There was no PRACTICAL difference between the 30-40, 8x57, and the 303. The 7x57, however, was a horse of another color.

You might want to not post about big bores, though. In that arena, 150fps is an amazing HUGE leap, and the lott is the rifle of choice, over .375, of the PH's of africa these days, and has been growing in that direction for the past 15 years, even bore it was taken to a SAAMI round. Sir, 150fps with a 500gr bullet, at a RELIABLE PREDICTABLE speed is a lifesaver. That word, lifesaver, actually means SAVING LIVES in that context.

So, back to my original position
the 30-06 is no match for the WSM in potential. - agreed-

the WSM rounds feed FINE in factory rifles and customs, if the gunsmith has a clue what he's doing

and if you load a winchester too hot you'll freeze the bolt into the action, and if you have to pounding the action open with a hammer you might need to have a bolt welded on. - your point, but if you like it, I'll agree.


have a nice day, I am going to shoot some of these big bores ... the 500 jeffe, the 500 NE, the 470 NE, the 470 AR, and a brace of 9,3s.. one a 57 and one a 62.

I've never handled a post 64 push feed m70.. but I do have a Classic SS. This bolt is obviously one piece with its operating handle.. no spline here. Am I correct in assumeing that the former rifle is what is being talked about, the push feed? (I chronoed my 180s from the WSM at 3050, with no pressure signs,, try that with the 06) Les

I will always be biased toward the 30-06, however, in this case it's for a different reason. I like and own Sako rifles and believe that choosing this over the WSM will add stability and long range potential without the weight penalty.

With few exceptions, I also believe that a magnum with a barrel shorter than 26" is a waste, especially so in thirty calibre and smaller.

As for the other arguments, they hold little sway for me. Hot rod handloading is bad business, but given a modern rifle, improving cartridges like the .257 Roberts, .280 Remington and .30-06, is safe and easy as well as rewarding. That isn't true of the WSM family, and as a bonus, the standard -06 case will alway be available and economical. That's something that can't be said about the WSM case.

here's an interesting post, of mine, on 200FPS difference...

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/.../525109315#525109315


Sure, the WSMs are not the answer to all things, in fact, the 300 Win is a far better round, in general...

but facts being facts, a 300wsm, using the same load techiniques, will always beat a 30-06, and they feed just fine...


Les,
I haven't ever seen a splined bolt. I didn't want to raise that part of this story, but the machining time to do such a part would out weight any "cost savings" of building one that way. I do believe this is a mixed example, of the remingtons being soldered together (they are) and a rant on "new winchesters"

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Sure, the WSMs are not the answer to all things, in fact, the 300 Win is a far better round, in general...

but facts being facts, a 300wsm, using the same load techiniques, will always beat a 30-06, and they feed just fine...


jeffe

You are absolutely correct. Even in the Nosler #5 load manual the maximum velocity for any loading of 180 gr 30-06 is 2872 fps whereas the maximum velocity for any loading of 300 WSM is 3082 fps. That is more like a 210 fps difference which is significant. Personally, I've never been able to get more than 2850 fps from a 30-06 before it started showing signs of pressure but I have exceeded 3200 fps with the 300 win mag on a regular basis with no signs of pressure.

jeffe, I commend you on your patience and control and to insinuate that a gunsmith such as yourself would "sucker" customers into paying for unnecessary work is ridiculous. sledder has argued this 30-06/300 win mag thing before

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3221043/m/929106464/p/2

has a habit of arguing with vulgarity and insults. Doesn't like Ackley improvements

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3221043/m/784102664/p/2

while showing his ignorance of even simple concepts like freebore.

Woods,
thanks for pointing that out.. I had a definate Uncle Rhemus feeling with this one. For the record, I run my 23.75" barrel 300winmag with 180grs 3080ish... Why 23.75? it's a rechambered 1903 (not A3) and it shoots 3/4" groups. When It was a 30-06, it shot about 1" or so... and was finicky as all get out.

jeffe

Jeff,you've still never explained how that extra 150 fps in the 300wsm,is going to kill caribou deader then the 06 does. That is what the original post was concerned with.

There is no way in hell you're safely getting 3200fps plus in the 300 win mag.,with 180's. The majority of 300weatherbys,don't even reach 3200fps safely with 180's

I guess it is true,everything in texas is bigger and full of shit.

By the way woods,thanks for briging up those old threads. In the first link,you claim pressure signs show up at 3200 fps. Now you're claiming you do 3200 fps plus safely. Get your bullshit stories straight. I mean hell woods,its ok if you want to lie(you have to lie to come up with your stories). Just keep your lies straight,so you don't contradict yourself.

For clarification, 2 out of the 7 300 win mags I load for do not show signs of any pressure at 3200 fps with the 180 gr TSX and I get 5 or more loadings with those cases. The other 5 300 win mags do start showing pressure signs at that level, showing extractor groove brass flowing. I don't load that high for a hunting load but I do like to know where max is.

Proud to be from Texas. Most people down here show respect and courtesy to people they don't know. Where are you from, must not be proud of it.

There is no excuse for maligning the character of other posters with no cause. I think I said it right before

quote:

sledder

I don't know where you came from, I haven't seen many of your posts in the past, but I'm beginning to wish you would go back to where ever that was. Your vulgarity shows a lack of vocabulary and your constant naysaying about other posters experiences show a lack of decency.

I do not shoot internet 300 win mag velocities and everything I have stated here is a fact. Unfortunately, this is the internet so I can't prove it to you. However, even if I did, I doubt you would have the character to apologize and admit you were wrong.

So, I'll just have to say.....KMA!

KMA--- is that an airline?

Mark,

Pick which ever one feels best in your mitts and be done with it.

Either option is a fine choice.

You guys must be cousins, or married, or something (divorced?). Or maybe its something in the water, like too much whisky. For God's sake, its damn rifle ballistics. Who cares! Of course, I am working on rechambering a 7 Rem, perfectly sound rifle to 7 Mashburn, which is a hairs breadth different. And I'll pay a gunsmith to do it. Why? Because it's my choice, I can pay for it, and I can. Its a guy thing, or whatever.

There is something to be said for civility!

BTWE, I like the Sako L61 I have a lot.