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Hello, Why not just take the position that the 06 w/ various bullets and powders can closely approach the performance of the the 300 Win Mag and yet not have quite the recoil?? If the 06 can deliver better shot placement for the hunter by this lesser recoil, by certain shooters, then the choice is quite clear which one has the edge for that particular shooter?? As for long range shooting, 600-1000 yards, done quite a lot of that myself and would have to give the edge to the 300 Win. Mag for such application. Used the 308 for years, still do and it is a proven accuracy load, but the 1000 yard mark is all it wants and does definitely work, but the 300 Win Mag seems to be right at home for those distances. So are others, but believe if I were a younger man, starting all over, would build me a 300 Win Mag, 1/9 twist, 30" Krieger barrel, Sierra 250 MK's, Master Class Stock job, and tell the wind to take a hike!! Still see the old 06 from time to time at the long range prone matches, but fewer and fewer and guess people just want that extra horsepower to make up for their fewer skills, just like me!! | |||
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I wouldn't consider selling one to get the other of any significant benefit. | |||
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Or, one could neck the 30-06 up to a 338-06, shoot a 225grain NP at 2700fps, and beat the 300 Winmag in energy, using less powder, and seemingly endless barrel life. But, then the 338-06 vs. 338 Win mag discussion starts. :-) | |||
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The older I get, the less I like recoil, the shorter the shots I take, the more time I am willing to take stalking closer, the more I enjoy the hunt! I no longer have any of the 4 300 Winnies I usta have. The '06 would be my favorite round if it weren't for the 7x57! Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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Wrong again 338-06 225gr Partition @ 2700fps energy measured at 100 thru 500 yds versus 300wm 200gr Partition @2950fps energy has an average of 280 less ft lbs throughout the range. The 300wm drops 9.5" less than the 338-06 and has 3" less drift at 500 yards. The 200 gr 300wm has a sectional density of .331 and the 338-06 225 gr has a sectional density of .281. The 338-06 is an inferior performer when compared to the 300wm in every way! Give it up.  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Not arguing. A 338-06 with 225 grain bullets, shoots very close to what a 30-06 with 180 grains would do. If you increase the load with the 300 winmag, of course it will beat it. It has a bigger boilerroom. But, using the charge stated in the begining, they come closer. You get very similar ballistics, but more energy at the target. | |||
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Because of the increase in speed combined with the ballistic coefficient of the 180 gr bullet, the gap gets even wider: 300wm 180gr TSX @ 3150fps....muzzle energy 3965....300yd energy 2813....500 yd energy 2208 338-06 225gr TSX @2700fps....muzzle energy 3642....300yd energy 2391....500 yd energy 1763 The average advantage in energy across the board goes to the 300wm by 397 ft lbs and the 300wm now drops 15" less at 500 yards with 6" less wind drift. Significant Now the 30-06 30-06 180gr TSX @ 2800fps....muzzle energy 3133....300yd energy 2187....500 yd energy 1692 338-06 225gr TSX @2700fps....muzzle energy 3642....300yd energy 2391....500 yd energy 1763 Advantage 338-06. So to me the 30-06 and 338-06 are comparable but there is no way either is in the same ball park with the 300 win mag. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Woods, well said! | |||
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I don't think the gap is all that wide. I have reloaded for years, for severeal different 30,06s and 2 or 3 300 wins. I would say the velocity difference is somware between 150 and 200 ft all being equal. I think for deer , I would choose the 06 every time. For elk, The added power might come in handy. While I do not currantly have a 300 win I probably will again one day. I would say if recoil is a problem use a .308. Lots of guys pick a cartridge cause it shoots a little flatter, and while there is some logic to that for most people taking game much past 300 yards is a matter of luck. At 300 with a good bullet the 06 hits plenty hard. Shoot witch ever you choose both are great rounds. I have a featherweight 30,06 that I would have great confidence hunting Elk with. I would use either a 165 or 180 gr probably a tripple shock. I would not want to shoot a 300 in a featherweight , but I don't like muzzle breaks. Use what you like both are great rounds. One has a little more power, but the 06 has enough for the vast majority of situations...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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All I want to know is where to find these smart bullets everyone keeps talking about. How do they put the brains in them?  "In case of a thunderstorm stand in the middle of the fairway and hold up a 1 iron, not even God can hit a 1 iron"............Lee Trevino. | |||
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Plenty smart, advanced,very effective design bulets around that incorporate superior ballistic and structural design,making them trully versatile at broad range of velocity and distances and circumstances. Such bullets have given cartridges noticeable increased capability beyond what we have been conditioned to in the past. Jut like your kids, its how you shape them mentally and physically,feed them,and what values you instill into them.to make them into something that is truelly more versatile,adaptable,effective,efficient and more worthwhile. In other words of Smart and wise design. Good thing about bullets is,someone has already done much of the ground work,all you have to do is buy them and see if they suit you. That is Unless your one of those folk who bought 10,000 NP or RCL years ago, and have not bothered to look around. I will gladly and confidently use the 168tsx30/06 to take on any game at the same distances, that people have sensibly and effectively taken with the 180np/300win. Once again, I am not kicking the 300win, its just that I dont see sense in pushing lesser design bullets faster and faster,when a combo like the tsx/06 will do no a less a job. I said sell your 300mag, I never said you could not borrow your friends if you really had the need.  | |||
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Why is it that so many 30-06 owners feel that they have to try to show that the 30-06 is ballistically equivalent or even superior to other cartridges, by using ridiculously skewed comparisons like the one in this thread?If you want to compare the ballistics of two cartridges using the same caliber bullets,the comparisons are meaningless unless the same bullet is used.  | |||
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Or is it just stirring the pot......and we've all been suckered. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Gosh...I'll be the first to say the .30-06 is inferior (with nothing skewed) to the 300 Mag in speed and energy and is more efficient, but it sure is more fun to shoot, hurts a lot less and kills just as dead...hopefully done without stirring the pot or suckering anyone. Non-magnums RULE...but then my heavy gun is a .35 Whelen or a .450 Marlin!! The year of the .30-06!! 100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!! | |||
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Just for fun I think I will buy some 168TSX sometime & see what speed I can get in my 300 Sendero. Should be interesting!! | |||
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It nots confusing really, and it may only be meaningless to you. You state how good you shoot the 300 ultra, happy for you,but its not for everyone,so if a guy finds it untolerable or noticeably affecting his marksmanship he can for eg,get a308nm,300weath with GScustoms,and match or better any ballistics that you get in an Ultra with less advanced design pills,and he aint missing out on anything. Its not hard to gather that this thread is about bullet design more than criticism of any cartridge. And no one is really saying that the 06 has more raw launch power than a 300win, that has not been stated. What it is saying is that advanced bullet design applied to an 06,is just as effective, as a more average bullet design in a 300win. That is important to people who shoot much better with the 06 than a 300win,or better with a300Weath. than 300ultra etc.what ever their threshold be. Sure a 300win may be a little flatter at 400yds than an o6, but if recoil causes someone to flinch and be 6or8" off at 400 yds, i dont see much benefit in the extra flatness. The comparo is not really skewed if you understand the principle it is demonstrating. Bullet design(shape,construction) does make an advantageous difference and can easily up the performance standard(downrange Vel.,Energy,momentum,penetration) of a cartridge to a level where they may not need to necessarily get a larger capacity case. | |||
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Or you could simply use the same bullet in an ultra and have superior ballistics.But then you just don't seem to be able to comprehend that concept. | |||
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Sj , Like I said, all that power aint that useful if a person cannot manage to direct it properly and effectively ,and in such cases they can end up doing more bad than good. A bad flinching guy can grossly miss place a shot at surprisingly short distance and even worse at long range. On the other hand The guy who can properly handle the rig he has,has a shot option all the way out to the practicle range of that rifle and his skill.and if he uses the best bullets, he can take also to his advantage, whatever it is they have to offer in upgraded performance. Use advanced bullet design in what ever you like,.300sav to .300ultra, it helps all of them. And I suppose its a relative thing to some degree,cause the 06 is an ultra beside the .300sav, cause whats in a name?? and I am sure there are bigger cased 300 mags out there than your beloved ultramag. So obviously I do understand your concept,long before you doubted that I did. It aint as exclusive to your 300ultra as you think. | |||
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This is the YEAR of the 30-06. For anyone to say a 300winnie is better would make them a liberal, anti-American, Bush hating dumocrate!  | |||
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I've been following this thread with great amusement. If we follow the logic of this thread, then why not just keep the 30/40 Krag or the 300 Savage? After all, if a "mere" 200 fps makes no difference it makes no sense to "upgrade' to the 06. I don't claim to have the experiences a lot of you have here, but I've shot an animal or two in my lifetime with all the calibers in question, and given all thigs equal, i.e, same bullet weight, construction, and recoil is not an issue etc., (BTW, ANYBODY that has recoil problems with ANY 300, unles you're a girlie-man, needs to drink more Ovaltine or something)there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way animals react when hit with a 3006 at 2750 fps and a 300, especially a Weatherby at 3250 plus (which I can attest to) or an Ultramag (which I have no experience with). jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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With my 300 Win Mag I get 3050 Fps with the 180 gr bullet. With my 30/06 shooting the 180 gr bullet I think I would get 2750 Fps using IMR4350 with a 25" barrel | |||
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FWIW, I get 3600 fps with my 300 Win and a 130 grain X bullet. Big charge of W760 straight out of the Barnes #3 manual. That load shoots through everything here in South Texas (sideways) up to 1600 lbs and kicks like a hot 270. It shoots long ways through anything under 250. I can't imagine getting that type of performance from my 30-06 but I'll load some up and report back. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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With these here smart bullets, do you still have to aim them or can they find the critter all by themselves? This could save a whole lot of load development time. Hey I'm getting it now. With bullets that hit the critter in the right place all by themselves they can be fired from a slower cartridge like the 06. Woodjack, I assume you are selling these smart bullets right? | |||
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I never said that it was.But you keep insisting that it is exclusive to the 30-06. | |||
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Big foot, thats right you are assuming,and that aint a wise thing to do for any man.No I dont sell them. No these smart bullets will not find and hit the animal on their own, are you not you capable of placing them or any other bullet correctly out of a riflecartridge combo that you can properly handle? If you can, then advanced design bullets will be an added advantage, if you cannot, then hunting probably aint for you. SJ, you say things that I have not stated,nowhere have I said it is exclusive to the 06, If I have show us where, in fact it is quite the opposite,I have indicated in a number of postings, that better bullets help a number of cartridges to up their performance to a point that a person dont always need a bigger cartridge to get the performance they are looking for, and this is important to people who are already on the threashold of what they can sensibly and effectively handle,regardless of its size. Any reason you dont use a .300/378WM? 300 ultra looks a little small considering you like launch power so much. Using that 300ultra instead of 300/378 is like others using the 06 instead of the 300win. | |||
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One reason is the ridiculous cost of brass.Another is that the 378 case is a little large for 700 actions and I won't own another weatherby. As for the bullet issue,it is you that has been comparing the 30-06 with high bc bullets to the magnums with lower bc bullets.Everyone else wants to use the same bullets in their comparisons. | |||
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Don't worry, be happy. The .300 WM is a fine round. True it burns more powder and kicks like a mule. If that's what floats your boat, knock yourself out. Have fun. That's what life is all about. Personally I would take the 06 but it doesn't matter. Shoot what you like. | |||
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I wouldn't sell one to buy the other. I personally am not into the magnum hype, but to say the 30-06 is equal to to 300 WM on paper is a fantasy. Magnums will always, shoot faster, flatter, and have more energy. They will also burn more powder, recoil harder and have more muzzle blast. But the big question for every individual is: Do they want or really need it? And are they willing to put up with the extras on both ends? Shoot what you like, like what you shoot, but most importantly hit what you shooting at. | |||
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Word. | |||
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Yip, that pretty well says it all...where you hit 'em, not what you hit 'em with!! The year of the .30-06!! 100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!! | |||
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I've shot alot of 300 win mag over a chrony and seen many others shoot various 300 win mags over chronies. The majority barely hit 3000 fps with a 180 gr bullet. One hunting season a member of the local range compiled chrony results from all sorts of cartridges. I was interested in the 300 win mag and the 06 results Out of around 35 300win mags,the average velocity spread was 2936. Out of the handloaded 06's with 180gr bullets the average velocities were 2798. Closer to 150 fps differance in velocity. People love to throw around 3100 fps for the 300 win mag, but the majority of these rifles aren't shooting anywhere near this velocity. I've got an 06 with 26 inch krieger that I safely get 2900fps with 180's. I can't see why I need a 300,but I still own one. | |||
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My handloads for my 300ultramag produce 3380fps with the 180gr tsx. | |||
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Just got back from the range and my 300 win mag with a 24" barrel, 180gr TSX, 76.5gr RL22 averaged 3125 fps. I reload for 6 different 300 win mags and they all exceed 3100 fps with 75.5 gr or more of RL22. Pressure signs start showing up at 3200 fps. With the 30-06, pressure signs start showing at 2850 fps. JME ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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I hear you,those internet 300 mags always run 3100 fps. Hell there's a guy on another forum that runs a .30-338 right up there with a 300 RUM,safely no less. | |||
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sledder I don't know where you came from, I haven't seen many of your posts in the past, but I'm beginning to wish you would go back to where ever that was. Your vulgarity shows a lack of vocabulary and your constant naysaying about other posters experiences show a lack of decency. I do not shoot internet 300 win mag velocities and everything I have stated here is a fact. Unfortunately, this is the internet so I can't prove it to you. However, even if I did, I doubt you would have the character to apologize and admit you were wrong. So, I'll just have to say.....KMA! ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Cry about vulgarity,then ask someone to kiss your ass. What a fuckin' idiot. | |||
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It's time to let a meaningless argument die. Shoot what you want to shoot. Shoot it well....hit the vitals...that'a all that matters. | |||
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Everyone is (was) so enamoured by some sort of boyhowdylookwhatIcando velocity that they past right over Seafire's post. The gain you get in a .300mag over a '06 is being able to send a heavier bullet downrange at a useful velocity. | |||
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For places where the long range spotting of game is possible even the magnums are not really all that long ranged in ablilty. The capacity and bullet size of the 300 WM is pretty much tops in practical use. Otherwise the recoil or gun get very big. As for myself I don't like the 300 WM cartridge for itself at all but there are similar alternatives. Today in long range target shooting the caliber and cartridge selection has passed the belted rounds goodbye on prone rifles. One does not need .30 caliber or 70 grs of powder to make a hole in a piece of paper and recoil does matter a lot to a shooters performance. The latest of the latest, at least yesterday, is the 115 gr VLD type 6mm bullets launched by cartridges like the 6mm XC or X in quick twist barrels. Finally Barnes data is not worth reading as it's almost always wrong. Join the NRA | |||
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