Load data for the 280 AI is given in Nosler #4 and Sierra edition V.

The Nosler manual shows a top velocity of 3150 fps with RL22 and a 140 gr bullet.

The Sierra manual shows 3100 fps with the 140 and 3050 fps with the 150 gr bullet.

The same velocity you can obtain with the standard .280

Anything is attainable, the Q is should you.

I personally would not want to run a std 280 at those speeds.

But, we all go about things differently.

Mark D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sledder:
Regardless of what any of the shithouse experts on this web site will tell you. Ackley Improved is a waste of fucking time.



Another shithouse expert that has never loaded round #1 for an Ackley.

quote:

I'd venture to say you'd be lucky to get 100 fps safely with the AI over the standard .280rem. You could take the .280 rem in a 24 or 26 inch barrel with a tight chamber and get the same velocity increase,without all the fireforming bullshit and wondering exactly what pressures you're getting.

I would say that 100 to possibly 150 fps faster than a standard 280 would be about right. But then according to my reloading manuals, that is all you can gain by using the 7WSM. And it is half way to a 7mm Rem mag. And yes, I would definitely put a 26 inch barrel on mine.

Once again, I have not loaded for the 280AI. I have experimented extensively with the 30-06AI. I would expect that the 280AI would show the most benifit when used with heavy bullets and slow powders, this is true of the 30-06AI.

To gain the most benefit from the AI conversion, I would use 150 or 160 gr bullets with powders such as 4831 or RL22 and possibly H1000, IMR7828, or Magnum. These latter three might be too slow for the cartridge, but I would give them a try to find out.

This experimentation is why most of us have a rifle chambered for a wildcat. If we wanted a cartridge that we could cookbook out of any reloading manual, we would just use the 280 or the 7 mag.

Those that do not enjoy the experimental part of reloading, going beyond what is in the manuals and learning on your own, will never understand the allure of a wildcat rifle. We do not play with a wildcat, just to see a performance increase. If that was the issue, we would just sell our old rifles and go buy a new 7 RUM.

quote:

They don't show pressure signs as readily as other standard case configurations and when they do its usually in the form of blown cases or stuck bolts.

This statement is absurd and untrue. It matters not, what the top end of the case looks like. The base is still made of brass and is subject to the laws of physics. When pressures reach a certain point, the brass will begin to flow, just as with any cartridge configuration. That flow may be observed as shiny ejector marks or case head expansion. You use the same primers in the Ackley as in the 280 Rem, they are just as likely to show flattening as excessive pressures are reached.

The best pressure indicator (short of a strain gage) is still the Chrony. If you are actually reaching velocities appropriate for the top end of the 7mm Rem mag, you are obviously treading into dangerous waters.

One thing to beware of is work hardened brass. Do not expect to see visible pressure signs on brass which has been loaded eight or ten times previously. The previous firings will have hardened the brass so that it does not flow until pressures are really dangerously high.

On a project such as you are considering, I would fireform virgin brass, and do load developement work with the once fired cases. This will be the best way of seeing visible signs of excessive pressures.

Buy 200 or 300 new cases, and use them to determine an appropriate powder and charge rate. Once the recipe has been determined, the cases may be reloaded numerous times for general shooting, target practice, or hunting.



I would like to adddress the following point again.

quote:

You could take the .280 rem in a 24 or 26 inch barrel with a tight chamber and get the same velocity increase,without all the fireforming bullshit and wondering exactly what pressures you're getting.

Muzzle velocity is a product of barrel pressure and duration of that pressure. One does get higher MV from a rifle with a tight chamber than from typical factory hunting rifles, but that increase is not due to any magic. It is because the tight chamber rifle has a smaller combustion chamber, and thus produces higher pressures than the rifle with a more generous chamber.

The more loosely chambered rifle is capable of higher velocities than its tighter chambered brother. One only needs to increase the powder charge to gain equal chamber pressures. This is due to a larger combustion chamber, giving room for more powder, and increasing the duration of the pressure curve.

With an AI chambered rifle you have increased the size of the combustion chamber enough over the original chambering that you can actually move to a slower burn rate powder. Thus giving a greater duration on the pressure curve, and the associated increase in velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
I own 3 AI's and can say that the case life IS better. here is why, in case it has not been deduced from the previous posts;....

the 40* shoulder and reduced taper grip the chamber walls better and disallow the flow of brass over that sharp of an angle on the shoulder. Not to say it doesn't still stretch, but it stretches far less. You really wan't to see how much it affects the growth, run a 220swift and a 220swift AI next to each other with max loads for about 8-10rnds and re-measure. You will then know the benefit of the AI shoulder.

Thank you very much!!!Those who have not annointed their head in St. Parker Ackley's water don't have a clue.

Here is another invitation, I have had a number of doubtfuls about my claim in regard to my .257 Ackley(3607fps,100# Very Much Improved. Anyone who want's to venture over here and doesn't find what I say to be true, I'll buy the round trip ticket!!!!!!!!!

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
I own 3 AI's and can say that the case life IS better. here is why, in case it has not been deduced from the previous posts;....

the 40* shoulder and reduced taper grip the chamber walls better and disallow the flow of brass over that sharp of an angle on the shoulder. Not to say it doesn't still stretch, but it stretches far less. You really wan't to see how much it affects the growth, run a 220swift and a 220swift AI next to each other with max loads for about 8-10rnds and re-measure. You will then know the benefit of the AI shoulder.

I get almost no stretch handloading any cartridge that has a tight chamber on the case body and does not use an expanding button. Thats all the proof anyone needs.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
I own 3 AI's and can say that the case life IS better. here is why, in case it has not been deduced from the previous posts;....

the 40* shoulder and reduced taper grip the chamber walls better and disallow the flow of brass over that sharp of an angle on the shoulder. Not to say it doesn't still stretch, but it stretches far less. You really wan't to see how much it affects the growth, run a 220swift and a 220swift AI next to each other with max loads for about 8-10rnds and re-measure. You will then know the benefit of the AI shoulder.

Thank you very much!!!Those who have not annointed their head in St. Parker Ackley's water don't have a clue.

Here is another invitation, I have had a number of doubtfuls about my claim in regard to my .257 Ackley(3607fps,100# Very Much Improved. Anyone who want's to venture over here and doesn't find what I say to be true, I'll buy the round trip ticket!!!!!!!!!

Stepchild

Here are is a link to the loads for the 257 i at The Reloaders Nest. link

The last time we went around someone with a similar screen name as yours suggested that I be banned for being right!

I see no load there for that little round with a 100 gr bullet that comes even close to 3607 fps.

I have a 264 WM that might reach 3600 fps with a 100 gr bullet and it's 26" tube. Of course that cartridge is not "improved" like yours.

Just a thought, but why not just set back the 270 barrel and rechamber to 270AI or 270 Hawk or 270 Gibbs or .....
I suspect your shot out barrel is really just a problem in the throat.
A properly chambered 270 AI is easy to make brass for. Just shoot standard 270 Win in it.
I assume you are set up to reload for the 270 Win already. This would be a less expensive alternative and a good way to play with (learn) a wildcat.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Savage99:

"I see no load there for that little round with a 100 gr bullet that comes even close to 3607 fps"

Take stepchild up on his round trip ticket offer and you'll see one. And it won't be with any of the powders listed at reloaders nest. Jim

Idaho Shooter-great post.

Like I said, run a 220swift and a 220swift AI next to each other at top end loads, even in tight chambers, and you will see the benefit. The taper on that case with it's shallow shoulder angle allow a lot of foreward growth (hence the reason I used that as an example). The swift AI with little taper and sharp shoulder will grow at a far reduced rate.

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
The swift AI with little taper and sharp shoulder will grow at a far reduced rate.

That is an indisputable fact and that alone is reason enough for me to continue to "improve" most any cartridge that I own. All of my reamers are improved with the lone exception of a .243 WIN and that was given to me. It will be making the trip to Mr. Kiff to become a 6BR soon and of course it will be sporting a 40 degree shoulder. Jim

I have had several different ackley improved rifles in the past. I have given them up since fireforming cases became a chore, not fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Chop901:
I have had several different ackley improved rifles in the past. I have given them up since fireforming cases became a chore, not fun.

What part of fireforming for an Ackley do you think is a chore? Would that be taking the cartridge out of the box or putting it in the chamber or the dreaded pulling of the trigger?

I just finished loading up 40 rounds of 250AI. It is my first and only AI rifle I have. I have yet to trim any cases and don't figure I will ever need to with it. Can't say that for the other cartridges I load for.

Now as to the fireforming, I have never understood why that is a problem. If someone can explain how added trigger time is a waste of time I am all ears. Standard 250 loads shoot very well and give me more time behind the trigger. I also don't need 500 formed cases, a 100 or so are plenty.

Thinking a 25/06 or 280 blown out will be my next project...

quote:

They don't show pressure signs as readily as other standard case configurations and when they do its usually in the form of blown cases or stuck bolts.

No actually it isn't absurd or untrue. In fact John Barsness has talked about it. I've witnessed it personally and several gunsmiths who shoot AI's exstensively have seen the same. Your 30/06 AI is by far the biggest waste of any of the AI series with exception of the 243 AI. Even less gain in velocity is seen with these two chamberings then the rest of the AI's.




I would like to adddress the following point again.

quote:

You could take the .280 rem in a 24 or 26 inch barrel with a tight chamber and get the same velocity increase,without all the fireforming bullshit and wondering exactly what pressures you're getting.

Muzzle velocity is a product of barrel pressure and duration of that pressure. One does get higher MV from a rifle with a tight chamber than from typical factory hunting rifles, but that increase is not due to any magic. It is because the tight chamber rifle has a smaller combustion chamber, and thus produces higher pressures than the rifle with a more generous chamber.

The more loosely chambered rifle is capable of higher velocities than its tighter chambered brother. One only needs to increase the powder charge to gain equal chamber pressures. This is due to a larger combustion chamber, giving room for more powder, and increasing the duration of the pressure curve.





No a looser chamber isn't capable of higher velocities. In fact a loose chamber is exactly what weatherby calls "Freebore" in their rifles. A loose chamber disipates pressure to an extent and can be dangerous if the rifle is necked tighter then standard.

The only way a loose chamber is going to increase velocity is through fire formed cases allowing for more powder volume.By doing this,you no longer have a loose chamber. You have a chamber filled with fireformed brass,to the exact dimension of the chamber.
Even then you don't gain much of anything with the AI because the case volume simply isn't that much greater then then the proprietary cartridge volume. Which is evident when you shoot them over a chrony.And all you get is 100 fps increase.

As for the allure of wildcatting and AI's. The problem with allure,is it usually leads to euphoria and a loss of reality,which is evident in some of the claims made by the AI fan club. Its great to have a hobby,just don't start believing your own bullshit.

In todays market you have magnums which will do more then any AI configuration and you don't have to fireform and play all the other games associated with a custom chambering.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:


No a looser chamber isn't capable of higher velocities. In fact a loose chamber is exactly what weatherby calls "Freebore" in their rifles. A loose chamber disipates pressure to an extent and can be dangerous if the rifle is necked tighter then standard. You need to look up the definition of freebore. It has nothing whatsoever to do with chamber dimensions.


In todays market you have magnums which will do more then any AI configuration and you don't have to fireform and play all the other games associated with a custom chambering.

And your point would be? Just because your satisfied with the stuff thats factory loaded doesn't mean that everyone else is. If you are happy because you can walk into wally world and buy ammo for your rifle of choice........good for you. I am truly tickled for you. That however does not move my fun meter in the slightest. I load for my own satisfaction, for my own reasons and I really don't care what you do or your reasons for doing it. You should at least get your feces consolidated before you start putting daffynitions out like your explanation of "freebore" as being a "loose chamber"

Jim White

I am also thinking of an AI and have a question (sledder need not post). I have a Sako stainless in 270 winchester and am thinking of sending it off to Hart for complete fitting and rebarreling. They only offer a 280AI.

I am also considering a 270AI. I want to shoot 140 gr bullets at 3200 to 3250 fps to match a Burris Ballistic Mil Dot reticle. Can you shoot a 270 win to fire form to 270AI like you can with the 280 rem? Since the AI conversion has the most benefit with the heavier bullets in a particular caliber, a 270AI may be better for the 140 gr bullet and the 280AI better for the 160 gr bullet.

There are a few more dies available for the 280AI.

Which would you choose?

Woods, Yes you can fireform 270 Win in a 270 A.I. chamber. Thats the beauty of any of the Ackleys. It's just a matter of firing the parent cartridge in the new chamber assuming of course the chamber has been properly reamed for a slight crush fit. I don't imagine that will be a problem if you have Hart do the work.
Which would I do? I have a personal prejudice against anything 7mm (long story) so I would opt for the 270. There's not a thing wrong with a 280 in fact if bull elk is on your dance card you might be more comfortable with a 280 A.I. I have never had a problem killing elk with a 257 A.I. but there's that personal preference thing again. Lot's of people will tell you that ain't enough gun to kill elk but I think you know my answer to that. The same people will tell you not to use a 22/250 A.I. on deer but you talk about a spectacular kill! Lots of cartridges will do it but I killed an 8 pt. white tail with one last November and I don't remember anything ever pegging my fun meter that fast while I was dressed. That deer was dead at the crack of the rifle at a bit over 200 yards. He hit the ground so hard he bounced. Stepchild was there and killed one the same way about 40-50 yards further. Gazorp-lights out! And this was with Sierra 55 gr. spitzers.

Jim-

Could you elaborate a little more on the 270 AI. Woods has my attention with that and I think that will be nice choice for this rifle.

On another note, Can I send my dies in when I have the barrel chambered and have them machined to the Ackley or am I going to have to buy new dies most likely?

quote:

...am thinking of sending it off to Hart for complete fitting and rebarreling. They only offer a 280AI.

Contact noted gunsmiths R.W. Hart & Sons in Nescopek, PA. They chamber for any AI caliber. They did a 223 Rem AI and a 338-06AI for me.

They are cousins to the N.Y. barrelmaker Harts.

quote:

On another note, Can I send my dies in when I have the barrel chambered and have them machined to the Ackley or am I going to have to buy new dies most likely?

No you can not do this, at least not with the chamber reamer, as the dies are hardened.

The least expensive and easiest option is to simply order new AI dies from Redding, RCBS, etc....

quote:

The only way a loose chamber is going to increase velocity is through fire formed cases allowing for more powder volume.

Ah Sledder, you have begun to see the light!

Now, extrapolate that statement a bit to include an improved cartridge which will hold 4 to 5 gr more powder than the parent case.

Or perhaps the improved cartridge will allow me to use H1000 effectively instead of IMR4350 being the slowest powder I can get good results from.

You see, how much fun we can have trying all the different powder and bullet combinations for a cartridge which has little or no reloading data available in the books.

Just imagine how many excuses a fellow could come up with for shooting while doing load developement work of this sort.

This is why I reload.

Otherwise, a 223 and 30-06 with green box ammo from Walmart would kill anything I am interested in killing.

But that is just killing stuff, I am talking about shooting, that is something else intirely.

Two to three grains is more like it. And thats exactly why the real velocity increase, isn't anywhere near what many will try to convince you they get.

Actually Jim the only feces is the shit you spew on here. I am sure that your preferance for the AI is based on personal preferance because it surely isn't based on a real performance gain.

As for freebore. Wether you like it or not it is a form of loose tolerance,which does nothing to increase pressure. In fact freebore is in place because of correct chamber dimmensions and the fact that weatherby runs its ammo hot.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
In fact freebore is in place because of correct chamber dimmensions and the fact that weatherby runs its ammo hot.

Freebore has no relation whatever to the chamber whether it be large, small, loose, tight or what ever else you want to call it. You can have freebore half way down the barrel if you're stupid enough to want it. See if you can find a gunsmith that will talk to your dumbass and have him explain it to you moron. I got another little tip for you sledder. If you don't like what I have to say here, put me on your ignore list. If you can't read it you can't add your ignorance.

sledder,
Reading your posts reminds me of an old saying, "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"

Stepchild

Actually ,you were the one that had the problem with what I had to say.

So what exactly is the function of freebore,according to you Jim.

As for gunsmiths. I've talked to alot of them. I've yet to ever meet one in person that believed in the ackley improved series of cartridges. However,all of them stated they do alot of conversions at the insistance of customers.

That seems to be a common thread among successful gunsmiths,they seldom argue with an idiot willing to spend money. The 30/06 AI conversion ranks at the top.

quote:

That seems to be a common thread among successful gunsmiths,they seldom argue with an idiot willing to spend money.

With a few folks the "need" for special firearms is a disease.....a sickness that can only be cured with having one (like a vacination) and then they get over it. Sometimes it takes several vacinations to fully get over the illness. I know a truly exceptional gunsmith and artist that was destroyed by "Mauseritis".....a form of the illness.

The subject of AI can be discussed for ever and there are some that must be cured by "taking the cure" and making one. For certain....the number of those singing it's praises declines steadily but some are still aflicted annually.

Vapodog,
I'm seeking help in this matter, but trust me it ain't easy. I even did the 12 steps and nothing seems to be helping.
Six Ackleys and counting, where does it stop? Help!!

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:

So what exactly is the function of freebore,according to you Jim.

The idea behind long freebore is to mitigate pressure peak rise time by getting the bullet down the barrel a little ways before engraving.
Freebore has no bearing on chamber size or concentricity. If freebore of greater than "standard" dimensions is desired then one must use a specially made reamer or throat in a separate operation.

"As for gunsmiths. I've talked to alot of them. I've yet to ever meet one in person that believed in the ackley improved series of cartridges. However,all of them stated they do alot of conversions at the insistance of customers"

Yeah thats why so many of them have Ackley reamers in their inventory. Just to satisfy the whims of the occasional idiot. Maybe you should expand your horizions and talk to some gunsmiths instead of the plumbers you been talking to. I can show you a dozen right here in Prescott starting with two that teach the gunsmithing course at Yavapai college.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

The subject of AI can be discussed for ever and there are some that must be cured by "taking the cure" and making one. For certain....the number of those singing it's praises declines steadily but some are still aflicted annually.

The number of Ackley lovers is not declining at all. We're just growing weary of trying to convince people like you and sledder.
How much "improved" would a cartridge need to be before you called it worthwhile? 1% 3% 5% 10% 15%? I'm happy with 2%-5% increase in performance and call that worthwhile. I'm delighted with a 1% increase in velocity and the longevity of my cases being "improved"
I'm tickled pink when the efficiency of my cartridges is "improved" in the least little bit. I live in the real world and don't need to see 30% 40% 50% increases in velocity and efficiency before I declare something worthwhile. It's not realistic to expect much more than 5% so if I can do that I am ecstatic.
If that's not doable for you then shoot your off the shelf stuff and leave me alone. I don't care if you agree with or approve of what I do to "improve" my equipment so why don't you just stay in your world and I'll stay in mine?

could someone please answer my last question?

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum61:
could someone please answer my last question?

Magnum61, Idaho Shooter answered your last question. It would be cost prohibitive to have your 270 Win dies altered to Ackley Improved. They are very, very hard and the steps involved would cost far more than a new set of dies. You can buy a Redding three die set in the neighborhood of $60.00 to $70.00 dollars. Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
I just finished loading up 40 rounds of 250AI. It is my first and only AI rifle I have. I have yet to trim any cases and don't figure I will ever need to with it. Can't say that for the other cartridges I load for.

Now as to the fireforming, I have never understood why that is a problem. If someone can explain how added trigger time is a waste of time I am all ears. Standard 250 loads shoot very well and give me more time behind the trigger. I also don't need 500 formed cases, a 100 or so are plenty.

Thinking a 25/06 or 280 blown out will be my next project...

Ketchikan,
Keep up the good work and welcome to the Ackley fraternity.


Stepchild

Sorry I wasn't clear enough, I'm mostly looking for performance facts on the 270 AI. I've been looking at it in the reloading pages on this site but its doesn't seem as much of an improvment over its original cartridge compared to the 280 AI.

Is this a fair assumption?

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum61:
Sorry I wasn't clear enough, I'm mostly looking for performance facts on the 270 AI. I've been looking at it in the reloading pages on this site but its doesn't seem as much of an improvment over its original cartridge compared to the 280 AI.

Is this a fair assumption?

Magnum61, I don't have access to all of my notes and manuals right now due to a move. I just did get the lathe and mill moved two days ago and have yet to level them but if memory serves I think your assessment of the 280 being more improved than the 270 is correct. Either will kill with great efficiency provided you do your part as a marksman.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
Vapodog,
I'm seeking help in this matter, but trust me it ain't easy. I even did the 12 steps and nothing seems to be helping.
Six Ackleys and counting, where does it stop? Help!!

Stepchild

Have you joined AA?.....(that's Ackleys annonomous)
My dog has had a problem that was solved in a similar fashion.....old Rex is fine now that he too has joined AA....(for him it was anuslickers annonomous)
Here he is at his last meeting

quote:

Magnum 61
On another note, Can I send my dies in when I have the barrel chambered and have them machined to the Ackley or am I going to have to buy new dies most likely?

No...your dies have to be annealed and then remachined and then re heat treated...it'll cost less to just buy new dies

quote:

The number of Ackley lovers is not declining at all. We're just growing weary of trying to convince people like you and sledder.
How much "improved" would a cartridge need to be before you called it worthwhile? 1% 3% 5% 10% 15%? I'm happy with 2%-5% increase in performance and call that worthwhile. I'm delighted with a 1% increase in velocity and the longevity of my cases being "improved"

The only problem I have with the AI crowd is those that make claims that can't be reasonably possible.

I can show folks that claim their .257 AI is performiong loke a .257 weatherby and further folks that claim that their 6.5 X 55 AI is shooting like a .264 win mag.....sorry...this is just unreasonable and (IMO) pure BS.

For those that want to tell it like it is and state what it is they like about it I applaud you.

Just don't come out and tell newbies that your 30-06AI shoots 180 grain bullets at 3,100'/sec.....and of course at safe pressures....it's just not so at all!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Just don't come out and tell newbies that your 30-06AI shoots 180 grain bullets at 3,100'/sec.....and of course at safe pressures....it's just not so at all!!!

I don't recall anyone making a claim like that about a 30-06 improved and a 180 but if you want to see a 257 Ackley that will perform like a Weatherby then all you need to do is take Stepchild up on his offer of a round trip ticket and stand there and read the chronograph! I'll even meet you there and we can set up two Oehler 35P chronograph's and whatever instrument you bring with you and then we'll see who is full of shit! Now by God either put up or shut up.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
Vapodog,
I'm seeking help in this matter, but trust me it ain't easy. I even did the 12 steps and nothing seems to be helping.
Six Ackleys and counting, where does it stop? Help!!

Stepchild

Have you joined AA?.....(that's Ackleys annonomous)
My dog has had a problem that was solved in a similar fashion.....old Rex is fine now that he too has joined AA....(for him it was anuslickers annonomous)
Here he is at his last meeting

quote:

Magnum 61
On another note, Can I send my dies in when I have the barrel chambered and have them machined to the Ackley or am I going to have to buy new dies most likely?

No...your dies have to be annealed and then remachined and then re heat treated...it'll cost less to just buy new dies

quote:

The number of Ackley lovers is not declining at all. We're just growing weary of trying to convince people like you and sledder.
How much "improved" would a cartridge need to be before you called it worthwhile? 1% 3% 5% 10% 15%? I'm happy with 2%-5% increase in performance and call that worthwhile. I'm delighted with a 1% increase in velocity and the longevity of my cases being "improved"

The only problem I have with the AI crowd is those that make claims that can't be reasonably possible.

I can show folks that claim their .257 AI is performiong loke a .257 weatherby and further folks that claim that their 6.5 X 55 AI is shooting like a .264 win mag.....sorry...this is just unreasonable and (IMO) pure BS.

For those that want to tell it like it is and state what it is they like about it I applaud you.

Just don't come out and tell newbies that your 30-06AI shoots 180 grain bullets at 3,100'/sec.....and of course at safe pressures....it's just not so at all!!!

Hey Vapodog,
No I haven't Joined Ackley Anonymous And I won't be doing so as long as i'm breathing. Breathing Norma MRP, that is.

If your so sure that i'm full of shit regarding my velocity claim, why don't you take a couple vacation days and fly into MBS airport(Saginaw) and i'll meet your flight and prove to you(Oehler 35) that this isn't BS. As previously mentioned, if my claim doesn't measure up you get a free round trip to the Beautiful state of Michigan.
Take the challenge and put your money where your mouth is.

Stepchild

Hey vapo, I think your dog got lost






What kind of velocity could I expect to get from a 26" barrel on a 280AI with a 140gr bullet?