I've heard and read several different opinions on this. Are the .366's adequate for cape buff? I know the 9.3x64 is, in my opinion, as it equals or slightly surpasses the 375 H&H in ballistics. Therefore, let's just discuss the viability of the other .366's on cape buffalo, and/or other DG. Thanks for the opinions folks.

I do not think you could count all of the cape buffalo killed with the 9,3x62 in a month of 12/7 weeks. Probably an awful lot of elephant and rhino, and the two cats as well; when found in the farmer's fields or cattle pens.

Rich
DRSS

Yeah, I know the extensive history of both cals, but with more powerful lever actions, and a wider variety of doubles available today, is it still a good gun for cape buff.

In other words, would anyone choose it over a 470 or 416 remington? This is what I'm essentially trying to decide... what to take and use. I love my 9.3x74R and am confident in it, but I'm not sure it's got the killing power I'm looking for. I'd just rather carry it over the 470, and I'd prefer to use a double instead of the 416.

maddenwh - I have used 9,3x62 on buff - see my report - and plan to use 9,3x74R on next one - for me it is all I need - use good bullets, shoot straight and see it happens

Here are a few Buffalo I have seen taken with SWIFT-A-FRAMES and Woodleigh solids from a 9.3x62. No problems what so ever.

It is all you need until the buff is coming to get you.

Great report mouse, and great picks oz.

Will- I agree with you here, but it seems from oz's report that they did have one charge and stopped it with a 9.3 and a 375 H&H.

Besides, that's what my 470 is for.

We are all free to believe whatever we want to.

If you look back at some of the postings of Ganyanna I think you can pick up plenty of first hand info on taking problem animals ect with a 9.3x62.

Will- I know you didn't have much luck with them cows you shot at, but it is about bullet placement is it not (just giving you are hard time)? That principle would seem to hold true for charging cape as well.

All that said, I'd feal better with my 470.... but isn't that what gun bearers are for L.O.L.

Question Will; You don't think one could stop a cape buff charge with a well placed solid from a 9.3X74R/62? I assume you will probably argue that something bigger gives you more leeway and "shock value", but it weems to me, if you are a good enough shot, you could stop a charge with a 275 rigby if needs be...

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
We are all free to believe whatever we want to.

If it helps to shoot straight at a given moment - by all means.

P.S. After all, we are there to pay for our beliefs at the end.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Will- I know you didn't have much luck with them cows you shot at, but it is about bullet placement is it not (just giving you are hard time)? That principle would seem to hold true for charging cape as well.

All that said, I'd feal better with my 470.... but isn't that what gun bearers are for L.O.L.

Question Will; You don't think one could stop a cape buff charge with a well placed solid from a 9.3X74R/62? I assume you will probably argue that something bigger gives you more leeway and "shock value", but it weems to me, if you are a good enough shot, you could stop a charge with a 275 rigby if needs be...

And who among us are a good enough shot to guarantee to stop a charging buff? With a brain shot? With a spine shot? There are more than a few who thought they were!

I hear these stories about how some buff or elephant or whatever was stopped during a charge. In at least some of the cases the resulting video showed that "it" really wasn't charging to begin with. Somehow charges get separated into: charges, it was starting to charge, determined charges, real charges, etc.

I do not think any PH can be depended upon to stop "your" charge. Many, if not most, of the "determined" charges I suspect are stopped by pure firepower and not that any crack shot has dropped the charging animal.

If in any charge, the animal is stopped by the resulting firepower, how many 9.3's does it take to equal the firepower of a 416, 458 WM, a Lott, a 500 NE, or a 505 Gibbs?

So, what you're saying is, that a charge could be stopped by a 9.3, but only if Annie Oakley was behind the trigger? I'll go along with that, and I'll say it again, that's what my 470's for. I guess your also saying to take the 9.3 for the plains game and use the 470 or 416 for the buff? I'm asking here, and it might be rhetorical having read your novel.

the question is "what guides gonna back you up?"

Don't know what you mean by that, but hopefully one that shoots as well as or better than I do.

I have killed elephants and cape buff with a 450 No2, a 450/400 3 1/4", and a 9,3x74R.

The 9,3 worked as well, better actually, than the others. One shot one elephant, one shot one buff.

The only thin that is guarenteed to save you in a charge is a brain hit.

Sure a bigger gun might turn him with a near miss.... but then it might not.

Better a 9,3 well handled than a bigger hammer "you hit your thumb with". ie, make a bad shot.

The key is confidence in your gun.

When you are eye to eye with DG it is not the time to be thinking about a bigger gun.

Which is your favorite? I've got a 470, a 9.3, and a 416. I've always considered looking into a 404 or 450/400. In your opinion, how does it perform on big game relative to the others?

maddenwh

My favorite double is my 450 No2.
I have killed several elepjant and cape buffs with it.
I have also used it on eland and wildebest in Zim as that is what I was carrying when I
bumped into them.

I have taken it on all 3 of my Safaris, but only shot one elephant with it on my last trip as I also had my 450/400 3 1/4" along on its first Safari.

I had it recently scoped with a S&B 1-4 with flash dot reticle. On that hunt it took baboon, warthog, and lion with the scope on and bull elephant and cape buff with the iron sights.

My wife took a cape buff, with scope as well.

I have taken my 9,2x74R on all 3 Safaris, it has been my plains game rifle and has worked perfectly on many animals. On my second trip I took my biggest cape buff and a coe elephant at 5 yards.

They all 3 can do the job.
If you have a 470 and can shoot it good it would be a top pick. If someone finds the 470 to be to much recoil I would recommend you try a 450/400.
I think that is the best overall choice for todays African hunter, especially if equiped with a scope in QD mounts.

The 9,3 well handled, will handle a buff or elephant, I would have no problem using mine for either, or both of them again.

I would perfer a 9,3 double to any bolt rifle.

Use the double that you are most comfortable with.

If the 470 seems to have too much recoil do 2 things.
Quit shooting it off the bench or at the range. Take it to the field and do some plinking with it. Hunt some deer and pigs with it.

And develop some loads with the Hawk 350gr bullet of with some lead bullets, to use "plinking" and deer/pig hunting.

The recoil doesn't bother me. I've shot it plenty and have killed a feral hog using federal factory loads. Recoil is not an issue with me; I'd just like to use the rifle that is the lightest to carry, yet still has adequate power for whatever game I'm hunting. I have always been a believer that there is no such thing as too much gun. I've shot white tail with a 416 and a 375.

I'm planning on turning the 9.3 into my go to rifle with maybe the exception of DG. I'll use the 470 on them, partially b/c I love it and want to use it. I'm essentially trying to strictly use double rifles, and I was curious as to whether the 9.3 would fit the bill for everything other than ele and/or cape. From what I've heard, I think I've found a keeper. I probably use the 470 on the cape excepting longer shots or unforeseen circumstances. It's good to know that it can take anything if needs be.

Asked about the 450/400 b/c I've always wanted one. I definitely don't need one, as I've got pretty much everything on the planet covered with what I have, but who can ever have a enough toys?

use your 9,3 and have the gunbearer with you with the 470.

you'll have the best of both worlds and it's faster than reloading, bullets between fingers or not !

Yeah, unless the gunbearer sees that sucker heading our direction and bolts before I can even yell, "crap!" I do like your thinking though. Definitely what I'll have done whilst hunting non DG. Could work for DG as well, as long as you're not in the thick stuff and you have time to take a longer shot, then switch to the big boy. Course, it's probably better just to shoot with the big boy first.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
I'm asking here, and it might be rhetorical having read your novel.

Novel ???? I have Will's book about Africa shooting, when did Will write a novel?

I used a 9,3x62 on most of the buffalo erradication culls I went on. The buff were usually driven onto us with a helicopter, so most shots were frontal. Addmitedly most animals were cows, but even so... After the main cull, there were always the wounded and escaped animals to follow up, and I used the 9,3 for all but one of those.

I shot most of my ele with a 9,3 x62. It is on the light side for elephant at close quaters. it is not a caliber for hunting cows in the jesse.

I have guided clients who have used the 9,3x74R on ele and buff. Works fine. I am a great believer in shot placement beating horsepower, and the 9,3's have adequate penetration to take ele or buff from any angle - provided you use the right bullets.

JAL- When I said novel, I suppose that was a bit of facetious hyperbole.

With dangerous game there is a world of difference between "adequate" and ideal. I'll take the bigger hammer every time. I met a farmer in the lowveldt who killed over 30 lions in his lifetime with a 9x57. I asked him about the caliber and he said it was all he had so he used it. He now has a 375 and the old Mauser is hanging over the fireplace.

LJS - Ease of use counts for more than than "stopping power" when dealing with dangerous game. The first rifle I drew when I joined National Parks was a .458 Win, and that was changed to a .375 after the first ele. After two buff culls, I traded the lightweight .375 (7lb) for an 8lb Bruno 9,3. A year later I bought my own Mauser in that caliber and have been very happy with one ever since as a general purpose hunting rifle. It is more than adequate for lion or leopard. I works fine on buff and hippo, but is less than I would like to follow up a wounded buff. I got to follow up and dispatch a dozen or so after the culls and my 9,3 stopped all charges. Pointability and ease of putting a bullet in the right place more than compensating for lack of power. The round has marvelous penetration on ele's. Considerably more than a .458 Win, and usually more than a .375 (comparing jacketed solids). Over the years I have owned a .450 NE, a couple of .404's, a .458 Lott and now a .500/416 as "back up" rifles for when things go wrong. The only animal I have ever shot with any of the big bores of my own has been a lone hippo (on land at night).

The Lott was simply too much of a good thing. The recoil was too great for me to permit accurate snap shooting and alot of practice. The H&H .404 was marvelous- but I needed money one day The 500/416 handles well - but for all of these bigger rounds I am speaking as a PH who has to finish off other peoples problems. Many clients would be better served by (relatively) mild recoiling rounds like the 9,3's or a .375 that they can shoot accurately than anything bigger. If you can manage bigger - great! Happy days! But don't bring a .416 that intimidates you and you haven't practiced with. That way I get to shoot your animals. A handy rifle, that is fun to shoot and you enjoy shooting will always serve you better than a real "stopper" that you really only fire when necessary - Like Saeeds T-rex!

Ganyana: I certainly can't argue with your experience. I have only shot a handful of buffalo but I must get all the tough guys. The last one took 6 458 Lotts in the chest area before cashing in. All the buffalo I've shot have seen us first and I really believe that gets their adrenalin flowing. However, I have a pal who thinks they are glorified cows having floored a couple with one shot from his 375 Flanged. I was watching Dangerous Game the other night with Doug McNeil hunting elephant in Zimbabwe. He got an unexpected flat out charge and he and his PH knocked the elephant down with 2 non lethal shots to the forehead with a 450 Dakota and I believe a 470 double. Would a 9.3 have done the same thing? No way of knowing. Two PHs both missed the brain with their shots and could have been in harms way had the elephant not gone down. I have been to Africa 9 times and I find the weapon selection of PHs to be very interesting. It seems there are two camps. Those that want the lighter easier to carry 450/400 and under and the other group that love the Lott or larger.
I would like to thank you for your input. It is really valuable to get information from people that have been there and done it. Most of us who have hunted Africa are drawing from such a small sampling that we are simply jumping to conclusions rather than having adequate experience.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Ganyana: I certainly can't argue with your experience. I have only shot a handful of buffalo but I must get all the tough guys. The last one took 6 458 Lotts in the chest area before cashing in. All the buffalo I've shot have seen us first and I really believe that gets their adrenalin flowing. However, I have a pal who thinks they are glorified cows having floored a couple with one shot from his 375 Flanged. I was watching Dangerous Game the other night with Doug McNeil hunting elephant in Zimbabwe. He got an unexpected flat out charge and he and his PH knocked the elephant down with 2 non lethal shots to the forehead with a 450 Dakota and I believe a 470 double. Would a 9.3 have done the same thing? No way of knowing. Two PHs both missed the brain with their shots and could have been in harms way had the elephant not gone down. I have been to Africa 9 times and I find the weapon selection of PHs to be very interesting. It seems there are two camps. Those that want the lighter easier to carry 450/400 and under and the other group that love the Lott or larger.
I would like to thank you for your input. It is really valuable to get information from people that have been there and done it. Most of us who have hunted Africa are drawing from such a small sampling that we are simply jumping to conclusions rather than having adequate experience.

Don't let Ganyana snow you with bullshit! The 9.3 ain't a stopper in any way or form as neither is a 375 H&H.

I think Doug McNeil is a PH in name but not sure what else. If they were toting 9.3's I doubt that bull would have been phased much.

The old hands speak the loudest, 470/458 WM/etc. and up for at least a chance at stopping something coming to kill you.

Will: Thanks for your advice on snow but after 65 years I've gotten pretty capable when it comes to recognizing bullshit.
By the way, Doug McNeil is a PH for Tanzania Game Trackers so I guess he a little more than a PH by name only.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
LJS - Ease of use counts for more than than "stopping power" when dealing with dangerous game. The first rifle I drew when I joined National Parks was a .458 Win, and that was changed to a .375 after the first ele. After two buff culls, I traded the lightweight .375 (7lb) for an 8lb Bruno 9,3. A year later I bought my own Mauser in that caliber and have been very happy with one ever since as a general purpose hunting rifle. It is more than adequate for lion or leopard. I works fine on buff and hippo, but is less than I would like to follow up a wounded buff. I got to follow up and dispatch a dozen or so after the culls and my 9,3 stopped all charges. Pointability and ease of putting a bullet in the right place more than compensating for lack of power. The round has marvelous penetration on ele's. Considerably more than a .458 Win, and usually more than a .375 (comparing jacketed solids). Over the years I have owned a .450 NE, a couple of .404's, a .458 Lott and now a .500/416 as "back up" rifles for when things go wrong. The only animal I have ever shot with any of the big bores of my own has been a lone hippo (on land at night).

The Lott was simply too much of a good thing. The recoil was too great for me to permit accurate snap shooting and alot of practice. The H&H .404 was marvelous- but I needed money one day The 500/416 handles well - but for all of these bigger rounds I am speaking as a PH who has to finish off other peoples problems. Many clients would be better served by (relatively) mild recoiling rounds like the 9,3's or a .375 that they can shoot accurately than anything bigger. If you can manage bigger - great! Happy days! But don't bring a .416 that intimidates you and you haven't practiced with. That way I get to shoot your animals. A handy rifle, that is fun to shoot and you enjoy shooting will always serve you better than a real "stopper" that you really only fire when necessary - Like Saeeds T-rex!

Ganyana, I sent you a PM.

Dave

I have shot buffalo with the 9.3x62 and 9.3x64 and the .338 Win. and they perform about the same, they got the job done in every case SO FAR.

"SO FAR", that may be the kicker or the fly in the ointment...They got the job done, but the buffalo seemed to expire slower than they do with the 416, 404 or something of that order..or so it seems to me.

I consider the .375 a bit better than any 9.3, I guess because it has a wider cross section of bullet and that seems to effect DG like buffalo.

I don't really care what anyone shoots buffalo with but if I were to make a recommendation for a buffalo rifle it would start with the .375 H&H and the 40 calibers are just that much better.

I know that bullet placement and bullet construction is more important than caliber.

and the 35 whelen will just bounce off the buff since that last 8 thou is of all importance

I would love to see how these 310 grain 358 woodleighs would work

The 35 Whelen's twist is 1-in-16" whereas the 9,3 comes generally with a 14" twist, making it more appropriate for heavier bullets as far as stability goes.

There are also 320 & 325 gr bullets for the 9,3 available, but you then have to sacrifice powder capacity and velocity. For very close range work they hit like the hammer of Thor, but I rather stay with 286 grainers and achieve 200 fps more. The same scenario would be true for the 35 Whelen.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
and the 35 whelen will just bounce off the buff since that last 8 thou is of all importance

I would love to see how these 310 grain 358 woodleighs would work

Quite well on scrub bull and asiatic water buffalo.

the correct twist for the whelen is one in 12 per swift but that is not the whelens fault but remingtons!

a custom whelen is the only way.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
and the 35 whelen will just bounce off the buff since that last 8 thou is of all importance

I would love to see how these 310 grain 358 woodleighs would work

Quite well on scrub bull and asiatic water buffalo.

thanks sambar9.3 any pics???

They are BDC (Before Digital Camera) era. I'll see if I can scan them...

quote:

Yeah, I know the extensive history of both cals, but with more powerful lever actions, and a wider variety of doubles available today, is it still a good gun for cape buff.

How could the availability of more recent alternative weapons in any way change the ability of proven rounds to do the job? These animals are no tougher than their ancestors! If anything, the better bullets available today would make these calibers even better than heretofore....

Historically man has wanted to kill big dangerous animals with smaller and smaller spears, bows and guns..and man has been stomped, bit, gored and sent to his maker because of this malady.

Much of the comments made here are by people that may have never seen a Cape Buffalo at less than 20 yards, that has been chased all night by Lions and only had a short nap before you woke him up and he is red eyed, pissed, and intent on thumping anyone or anything that has disturbed him or perhaps he has a festering wound from a snare or bite..That is a different scenario than sniping him off at 100 yards while he is grazing. Then again you may bump an elephant cow that had a bad day or run into a lion that has cubs, it happens all the time.

If all the animal has to do is cover that 20 yard to slam you into hell then the 35 Whelen, 9.3s and perhaps even the .375 isn't much of a buffalo gun..The stoppers only start at 40 caliber.

Although I have used the light rifles and I'm as guilty as the next guy other than the fact that I should know better, today IMO Buff guns should probably start with the .375 and better yet by far is the .416 Rem and go up from there. I understand that I don't always practice what I preach but this is good advise.

I can recall so many instances wherein PH friends of mine have been severely wounded and even killed by Cape Buffalo and the ocassions wherein I witnessed and have on tape two buffalo that have taken 13 and as I recall 12 shots each repectively from 470s and 500s before they expired, it makes one wonder how so many of us have gotten away with some of the dumb stuff we have done, like shooting buffalo with a worn out 8x57 with military ammo as I once did, add to that only every 3 round fired, but it was that or stay at camp with the ladies and play bridge..I chose the latter.

Just some food for thought, your on your own and its your choice, we are fully grown big boys and responsible for our own decisions, and that includes a PH that allows it.

As a rough parallel to this discussion, a .243 Win will kill a mule deer under good circumstances, quite easily. But, I still prefer a .270 Win or more for all around deer hunting. Why? It's MORE of a good thing.

Likewise, for DG with the size & attitude of cape buffalo, I would prefer the biggest cartridge and gun which experience tells me I can handle quickly, easily, and accurately. For me that is the .470 Nitro in a good quality S/S double.

The minimum I would want to rely on for all DG circumstances would be either a .404 Jeff bolt gun, or a .450/400 double.

I agree with those who do not view the 9.3x74-R as a "stopping rifle". In my eyes it is not as potent a round as the .375 H&H with 300+ grain solids, and even where legal it is the absolute "minimum" allowed for DG in many areas. Read that again, please..."the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM allowed for DG". Why go with the absolute minimum if you can handle something closer to optimum? I am once again with Ray Atkinson on this one, and not just in regard to Africa, but Alaska, far northern Canada or anywhere else I might be facing an animal which has decided it needs to discipline me.