I originally posted this thread to get a consensus on how people felt about hunting buffalo wwith a 9.3X74R. I know the 9.3 or 375 aren't "stoppers", but that's not really what I wanted to know. I don't consider anything under a 416 a "stopper". Maybe if I posed the question in the form of a hypothetical...

If you were hunting plains game etc. with your double 9.3X74R and ran across an enormous dugga boy you couldn't pass up, would you shoot it with your 9.3, assuming conditions are right? Also, your PH has his Lott handy.

maddenwh

No doubt a bigger hammer is better. However even it must be well handled.

While I do feel better with my 450 No2 or my 450/400, I killed my biggest buff with one shot, a 286 Woodleigh Soft from my 9,3x74R Chapuis.

So, I would answer yes to your latest question, under 2 conditions, I was using a 286 Woodleigh Soft, backed up by 286 Woodleigh Solids.

Also I always carried several Woodleigh solids when hunting plains game in case we bumped into elephants.

Many times we would bump into elephants while hunting plains game. I would silently unload and reload with 2 solids.

In regards to a charge, by any animal, I am of the opinion that only a brain shot is guarenteed to save you.

A 9,3 with a 286 gr Woodleigh solid should reach the brain on any animal.

However, there is a chance that a near miss with a bigger gun might turn the animal or knock him down.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
If you were hunting plains game etc. with your double 9.3X74R and ran across an enormous dugga boy you couldn't pass up, would you shoot it with your 9.3, assuming conditions are right? Also, your PH has his Lott handy.

Absolutely! But, if I had buff on my license, I wouldn't be out there with my 9.3 double.

I'd have my Musgrave .404 with a 350 gr."Barnes-X-type" bullet up the spout and some TCCI Monolithic solids in the mag. The "X-bullet" would have the B.C. for longer shots on non-dangerous plains-type game and still be okay for a first shot on a buffalo or even something as light as lion, while the monolithic solids would be okay for anything up close. Anything else non-dangerous, I'd probably change what I had in the spout if I had the time and space.

AC,

isn't anything bigger than the suggested 9,3x74R a bit "much" for plains game?

Question: do you recommend carrying the largest caliber rifle all the time, no matter what species are on the menu?

IMHO, having the PH there with a true DGR answers the question...yes!

regards,

Rich
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
AC,

isn't anything bigger than the suggested 9,3x74R a bit "much" for plains game?

Question: do you recommend carrying the largest caliber rifle all the time, no matter what species are on the menu?

IMHO, having the PH there with a true DGR answers the question...yes!

QUOTE]


The problem is, Rich, the game is not sorted out to "just plains game" and "just DG" areas in Africa or anywhere else.

So, IMO, you had best be prepared for whatever you MIGHT run into...and "prepared" means having it in YOUR hands not someone else's.

Unless the area is both flat AND devoid of anything bigger than very short grass, your view and that of your "back-up" ace-in-the-hole may not be the same...and even in the very short grass, you may be (unfortunately) standing between your back-up's gun and the rapidly oncoming DG.

So, with a pointy-style (yet sturdy) first round, you will still have a flat enough trajectory with the .404 to deal with a nice LARGE Eland (even from a bad angle) or other desired plains game...even a little Impala. And you'll still have something adequate for a much-needed hurry-up shot at something that wants to bite, rip, and/or crush you.

It is one of the beauties of the 9,3. It isn't "over kill" for impala yet will handle a buff or ele.

I used to carry a few 175grn solids for my 7x57 or 200grn RN solids in .308 when hunting plainsgame, for "just in case" I had problems with bigger stuff. Now I just carry my 9,3. The speer 270grn cause less meat damage on an impala than a 150grn from a 30-06!

What Ganyana said!! From the horse's mouth, not supposition from the "other end".

Thank you,

Rich
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That's why they have horse races, Rich,...not everyone picks the same horse.

For myself, I'd rather be safe than sorry; feel comfortable than edgy. Any medium cartridge will do when things are going well. When they turn to pure owl-poop I'd rather have something big enough to handle dire circumstances just in case it would help. One of the things about DG, it seems, is that one misjudgement COULD be the last one. No "I'll do it differently next time..."

Be that as it may, you're surely free to feel however you want. But, then, so am I. Having both of the 9.3's and a .404, I know which I would use.

Lets see.... 2 people are hunting buff in Africa 100 miles apart.

By a quirk of fate both are charged by a buff.

One has a 404 Jeffery bolt, the other a 9,3x74R double.

Both make perfect brain shots, both are saved.

However the next day, both are charged by buff again....

They both miss the brain... The 9,3 shooter fires his second shot, hitting the brain and is alive.... The 404 shooter is struck by the buff while working his controlled round feed action, he is gored to death....

Which shooter would you rather be?

Alberta Canuck,

appreciate the opinion, as you said differences of opinion are what makes horse races and politics.
You points are valid, and well taken.

Rich
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NE 450 #2,

scenario is flawed...example 2 ends with "...PH drops one or two rounds on said Buff with his 500NE 3"...".

I would prefer the DR, but that is one reason I am doing speed drills using three 9" paper plates at 50 yds with my bolt action rifles with full house loads every week.12-16 rounds every week. It's also why you hear me touting cast bullets and surplus powder, not nearly enough $$$ at mi casa to shoot that much jacketed stuff...saving for Africa.

Rich
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Idaho S - Are you still planning that trip to New Mexico for the Ballon Fiesta? Let me know maybe we can touch base for a toddie down here?

I wouldn't hesitate to use my 9.3 X 62 or my 9.3 X 74 on Buff on my terms, but would always feel a little better with say the .404 Jeffery in hand. BTW Rich I still have the Jeffery new in the box as mentioned prior, just have not had time to photo it up and put it on here.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
NE 450 #2,

scenario is flawed...example 2 ends with "...PH drops one or two rounds on said Buff with his 500NE 3"...".

I would prefer the DR, but that is one reason I am doing speed drills using three 9" paper plates at 50 yds with my bolt action rifles with full house loads every week.12-16 rounds every week. It's also why you hear me touting cast bullets and surplus powder, not nearly enough $$$ at mi casa to shoot that much jacketed stuff...saving for Africa.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich -

The "lots of practice route" you are taking before you leave sounds like a good idea to me for most everyone who doesn't live in the bush with those critters, or doesn't shoot at game very regularly as part of his normal daily activity. May not be necessary, but can't hurt.

I appreciate your comments, and I fully understand some folks' faith in the various 9.3's. As to the scenario laid out by .450 concerning the two hunters, I appreciate his point also.

But, on thinking it through. I don't see it quite the same way. If the first shot with the double missed the brain, how much confidence can I have that the second one by the same shooter will find its mark? Especially now that said buff is inspired to kill someone, and is pumped plum full of adrenaline?

That doubt goes double if the first shot was at an alert (or maybe not alert) animal standing relatively still, and pretty much minding his own business. I can be pretty sure that as he comes for me, he will NOT be standing anything like still, may be bobbing his head as a result of pain, anger, terrain, whatever. In that case, I will want something capable of not just killing him, but of breaking him down with a good shot on the ball of the shoulder or somewhere in the spine. Even if it doesn't quite "stop" him like a brick wall might, it MAY slow him down enough I could even get in a third round, which will be double tuff with a double (pardon pun). Or, in either scenario, maybe my number has just come up and Mr. Buff will win?

Anyway, there are endless "maybes" and "ifs". But my crystal ball is broken, so I would just carry the biggest thing I can handle familiarly and easily.

If my 9.3 double was a better make, I would offer to lend it to you for the trip but, to be honest I don't really trust it, so won't. The .404 I don't allow out of my sight because according to Trevor Musgrave it was the first .404 his firm ever built and I had it on order for almost 6 full years. As it is not replaceable, I don't trust it to international travel through the hands of baggage handlers, customs "officials", etc. Except for possibly Alaska, and the far North, I guess it is now pretty much a safe queen....

Anyway, good luck on your trip, Hope you have a safe journey both ways and really enjoy yourself.

AC

Alberta Canuck and Larry Sellers-

You guys have mentioned the 404 several times. I'm currently in the market for one. Canuck, you partially answered one of my concerns with it, can it be loaded with smaller bullets than the 400 grain, and can it shoot flat enough to work well on plains game? Essentially, could it take the place of a 416 in terms of performance. I've got a 416 remington, but I've always wanted a 404 Jeff. I just haven't ever been convinced it could serve as an all around African rifle as the 416's do. What are your thoughts? In all honesty, I'm looking for some one to sell me on the cal., as I am really very close to going ahead and buying one whether or not it would be redundant to own one whilst having a 416 remy in the bag.

If I had a .416 Remington in a suitable DG action, I don't think I would even waste my time thinking about the .404 Jeff. Practical use wise, I think they are probably about like two peas in a pod.

To deal with the rest of your question....

I will have to run down to my shop in the morning and see what the lightest Barnes-X bullets I have weigh. I THINK they are 300 grain,but am not certain. I know I have some 350 gr. ones loaded right now.

With the larger bullet base area and ample case capacity, with the right powder(s) 300 gr. .404 slugs could be loaded to higher velocities and flatter trajectories over realistic hunting ranges than 286 grain 9.3's. The 9.3 (because of its sectional density advantage) may catch up 400-500 yards or so down range, but I don't shoot at any animals at anything like that range unless required to do so on control shoots.

With a Barnes-X type construction, I doubt the .404 would be much more destructive to light animals than would a 9.3 bullet. It might even be less destructive, as the light bodied animal really doesn't have a lot of mass to help open the bullets up excessively. At the same time, the .423" diameter of the bullet BEFORE it starts to expand is certainly going to help let air in and blood out of even DG.

And, there are very blunt nosed 400 gr. monolithic solids available if a guy wants to shoot through heavy bones. A .404 is no Nitro .450 3-1/4" or .470, fer sure, but it is pretty potent.

And if a guy really wants to use a double, I can strongly recommend the .450/.400. Downsides there are both cost of the gun and ammo, and getting the bullets loaded to "regulate" in one gun for both plains game distances/weights, and DG distances/weights. I used to have a very, very nice WR hand-detachable box-lock .450/.400 and I can't think of a handier, better all-'round rifle for game out to maybe 125 or so yards if well sighted.

The main question with a .404, I suspect is, "Will its owner shoot it enough to become comfortable with it?" They definitely do recoil more than a typical 9.3 x 62 or 74 loading, in-so-far as stocking is similar in both rifles. With substantially different stocks, all bets on comparative recoil are off, I believe.

Then, the next question is, will the owner practice enough with the bolt action to get reasonable speed of fire combined with accuracy? Of course, one would have to ask that with a 9.3x62 bolt gun also.

I don't think any of the three cartridges (the two 9.3's or the .404) are poor cartridges for any except the largest game. Otherwise, I wouldn't have all three.

It's just that if a person is not well experienced with shooting the particular DG he is after, I think he can sometimes use all the power he can handle truly well.

It's a bit like when I used to hunt birds when I lived in Saskatchewan. I mostly used a 28 ga. for ducks (mainly Greenheads) and both 12 ga. and 16 ga. guns for geese (mainly Greater Canadas). But then I could afford to. Our flocks often had literally thousands of birds in them, so it usually wasn't tough to get a limit with shots within proper range for the gun.

But if I was gonna have to steal them out from under the myriads of sky-busters in the heavily human populated areas of the U.S., or didn't have the opportunity to really learn leads, angles, etc., through lots of actual bird shooting, then I probably should have used a 10 ga.

If the 404 Jeffery is used at the original loading the recoil from the 9.3x74R isn't much different.

I guess I'm one of the few that never hunted plains game with less than a 375 H&H. I figured it was good practice. The 9.3 surely isn't too big for plains game. It wouldn't be my first choice on buff but it is certainly sufficient.

Just went down to my shop and checked my Barnes X-bullet supply. Only have 350 and 400 grain ones down there at the moment. Did a quick "Google" and didn't come up with any 300 grain ones at either Barnes or Swift. So, it appears for the moment there may not be any domestic 300 grain .423" bullets currently available out there.

Perhaps you could chat with Randy Brooks and see if he would make a batch if you really want to go that light. Personally, I'd just go ahead and use the 350 grain ones if I planned on taking fairly distant shots on plains game and wasn't happy with the flight path of the standard 400 grain bullets.

Anyhow, as you already have a .416 Rem Mag, it'd be a lot easier (and I believe safer) to just use that if you are used to shooting it quickly and like its handling.

Guess I'd I'd finally say take whatever you feel safest with, don't worry about it, and enjoy your hunt.

Best wishes,

AC

Canuck- Thanks for the advice. I've always been enamored with the 404 Jeff., primarlily for nostalgiac reasons I guess. I've always realized that it would be redundant to own a 404 and 416 remy, but sometimes it's not about what you need. I've thought of trading in the 416, but have come to realize that I really like it too much to trade it off. I think I shall probably end up waiting until I have an excess of funds and time (yeah right) before I purchase either a 404 or 450/400. However, I will eventually, or I won't ever really be satisfied with my collection.