Planning to hunt and camp quite a bit in the green mountains of VT in national forest/wilderness ares this year. For camping, I have a glock 17 9mm and bear spray. Which is a better choice for problem bears if one did not have a 44mag or casull or was not able to carry a rifle/shotgun? Opinions? Experiences?

I would take the 9mm. I have seen some really negitive experiances with guys carrying pepper spray for bear protection.

I know there are those who proport the use of bear spray but along with my firsthand expiriance I have seen studys that wer'nt very favorable.

There was an incedent a few years ago here in AK when a fisherman killed a problem grizzly with a 9mm. Not my fist choice but your Glock carrys 17 rounds fill it up with hard ball ammo and call it good or use this as an excuse to buy a big bore revolver. C'mon I know you want one.

Both, bear spray may work, if not the 9mm,, really though the best way to stay out of trouble with a bear is to use your head,, Keep your camp and camping gear clean, don't cook where you sleep, and keep all food outa reach. I worry more about 2 legged varmits than bears

another take both recommendation.

An Air Horn will produce better results than pepper spray & the horn works no matter which way the wind is blowing.

Keep the 9mm mag stacked full for point blank use only.

9mm I don't trust spray.

quote:

Originally posted by J-Po:
Planning to hunt and camp quite a bit in the green mountains of VT in national forest/wilderness ares this year. For camping, I have a glock 17 9mm and bear spray. Which is a better choice for problem bears if one did not have a 44mag or casull or was not able to carry a rifle/shotgun? Opinions? Experiences?

Fascinating alternative choice, perhaps neither of which will prove satisfactory.

The likelihood of confronting, being attacked by, a bear - even where I live - is incredibly low. I believe your question has more to do with your peace of mind and little to do with actual use of anything. Perhaps a better question would be: In the universe of personal protection, what will I feel comfortable having in my possession?

I asked myself this question, living in grizzly-wolf-puma country. I bottom out with Freedom Arms M97 45 Colt. This is the least intrusive personal protection device with which I am comfortable.

Hope this helps.

Inever killed a bear with a 9mm ,but i killed several big russian boars and feral hogs with head shots and 9mm fmjs ,i killed more with my glock 40 too ,always at not more than 15mts 80 percent under 10 mts .Juan

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
I would take the 9mm. I have seen some really negitive experiances with guys carrying pepper spray for bear protection.

Akshooter I don't know if you are referring to me when you say seen some negative pepper spray incidents but...I sprayed an 4 yr. old juvenile Kodiak Bear on Camp Island a few years back at about 5 feet away and well let's just say he turned and walked away from me but he wasn't hurt too bad. That was the last time I have gone into serious bear country without some type of gun. A charging bear would have walked right through that spray.

The next time I have to spray a bear it will be with lead.

That said I am not sure if VT is serious bear country haven't spent any time there. I would never think to cary either while camping here in MN.

MN Hunter

This is the first time I heard about that.
I don't ever remembering you carrying the stuff.

Actuly I was referring to an incodent when we had a client at the Uyak cabins who insisted on carrying the spry againsts our (Jim's and mine) reccomendation. He heard the thing hissing in it's holster and when he looked down to see what it was, guess what?

The episode was relayed to me that there was someting like 45 min of rubbing snow in his face before he could go on. By the time I saw him he was fine but the story sure sounded wild.

Sounds like bear spray dose a lot more to people than to bears.

I still vote for the 9mm it dos'nt matter if there are many bears were you are going. I don't leave my house without a 9mm or 2.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
MN Hunter

This is the first time I heard about that.
I don't ever remembering you carrying the stuff.

That time I was guiding with Aaron we had a bear on camp island digging through the burn barrel and the outhouses. He even came up on the deck and poked his head through the open cook shack door while Aaron was cooking. I had Aaron walk towards him (300-Win Mag in hand) and keep him occupied and I snuck up behind him with the bear spray from the cook shack. When he turned to get away from Aaron I was 5 feet away and gave him a nose full of spray. He was kind of freaked that I got that close to him without knowing I was there but the spray only irritated him a bit. He defiantly was not running for his life or anything.
I equate it to pouring a boiling pot of water on a home intruder. It might bother him a bit and make him consider if he really wants to get you. But if he does it's not going to stop him.

Maybe I did hear about that. Was that the time some of the bear spray drifted into the cabin that kind of rings a bell.

When you say 'bear spray' do you mean the one that is especially designed for bears ?
I saw a great video demonstrating that pepper spray on equipment actually attracts bear s. The bear rubbed against anything that had been sprayed.Idiots have come to think it's like mosquito repellent so they spray their equipment !
I'd forget the 9mm ,not enough . A 44 mag is the way to go and if you want it light get the light weight one .
Air horn sounds interesting . I always wondered if my super loud Storm whistle would do the job. I have used a shot for the sound to chase a black bear away.

Great input and experiences. It definately gives me some perspective on bear spray as I thought that it would be much more of a deterrent and not just a moderate discomfort to the bear. I have been hunting deer in VT and NY for several years and have seen more bears (and deer for that matter) in NY than VT, but I have run across a few, but with a rifle in my hand. I will be doing a few solo 1-2 night camps about 3 miles in to scout for deer and bear, so yes "comfort" or security is a major factor. I think that I will leave the bear spray at home and wear the 9mm and look at picking up a 44mag revolver (not interested in anything larger) when I can swing it. Thanks for everyones input and I would be happy to hear more.

BTW, it is real bear spray (large canister) although I've never used or tried it, and now don't plan on it. Anyone want to buy some bear spray?

A 12gauge pump shotgun alternately loaded w/ buck shot & slugs would serve you better than a piece of "Combat Tupperware"(Glock)chambered in 9X19 for black bear protection.
If a black bear is stalking you 99.9% of the time,you won't hear it or have the time to clear a holster with a hand gun.
Carry the shot gun,do not sling/pack it.

Air Horns work on the coast for brownies & it doesn't matter which way the wind is blowing!!!!
You'll have a 50/50 chance of using spray,depending twice on mother nature-bear & wind.
Not good odds.

If camping with a female-
A week a month,she is the bait.
A female was Timothy Treadwell's last mistake.

I would much rather have something that could potentially reach the vitals.

You're more likely to be harmed by Human beings, even deep in the woods, than by a bear.
9mm will work on them, too.

Two funny things I remember about my first Alaskan hunt and my most recent--

On my first(a bear hunt) many years ago I arrived with a .44 as a sidearm in addition to my rifle--
I was the newbie in camp-

Soon after I arrived and As I got unpacked
the crusty ol guide said-

" lemme see that thing"--

then proceeded to tell me to get a file and take that front site down smooth--

I asked if he thought it would snag in the holster--he said--

" Naw,just won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your a##."

Years later, same guide with another newbie in camp, this time not on a bear hunt-

The guide spotted the newbie with a large can of bear spray --

He looked at the guy and said--
"Ya know what the bear will think of that?--

Seasoning, for YOU,

--Did you bring him some salt too?"


Even with that in mind--I'd take both you 9 and the spray.

take your 9 with .....Bear spray is better than an air horn Of course a 500 S&W 4" would be ideal But a 9 is light years ahead of nothing ...

Gumboot- finally someone who gets it. J-Po's question was here's what I got which one is best.

I don't remember anywhere where he asked about big bore revolver,12 gauge shotgun or even a .338 Lapua.

Anyway I do agree with whoever it was that said it's more likely to have a problem with a person on the trail than a bear and if it came down to it 3 or 4 rounds of 125 gr. hardball in he head at under 12" will even do the job on a black bear and he'll still have 13 rounds left, but then what the hell do I know about killing bears.

Don't get me wrong that .338 Lapua is really cool and I do get the facitious nature of the responce.

Why are you afraid of black bear? Are you wearing a bacon necklace?!!!

quote:

Why are you afraid of black bear? Are you wearing a bacon necklace?!!!

Whos afraid especially when you have a gun? I carry my 9mm Beretta everywhere I'm not afraid.

Probably would be if I did'nt have it though.

I will tell you what I am "afraid" of is being in my tent at night with nothing but a knife and a bear trying to get in after I have yelled, made noise etc. Also the human element. While I have to say most I have met in the woods are (seem to be) not a threat, you never know as I have come across some odd ones out there. Also coming over a hill to see mom and the cubs or bear eating a left over winter deer carcass in early spring. That type of thing. I have my eating/cleaning area 100yds downwind from camp and don't bring food (or greasy hands)back to the tent. Also wouldn't bring the wife if it's that time of the month. And, no I don't wear a bacon necklace but want to feel like I have SOMETHING just in case of an odd but possible situation. My experience with blackies (5 or so)are that they run when they see you or in one case don't pay much attention and continue on their way. Just don't like to be completely helpless or without options. BTW Dans40XC, got a good laugh at the "combat tupperware" reference. Unfortunately, for now it's what I've have. I don't know if I can swing an $800 44mag (S&W 629-4in.) and then tack on another $200 for tax, a holster, and enough ammo to get to be a decent shot with it before spring. Now by fall I think it can be done. I am not fooling myself into thinking the 44 is the savior but again it would make me more comfortable when I don't have the .270, 06 or shotgun.

What do you guys in Canada carry for walks in bear country since you/we are not allowed to have pistols (except for the priviledged few)?

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Why are you afraid of black bear? Are you wearing a bacon necklace?!!!

Well for a start--

Although, black bears are statistically less likely to attack--
IF however an attack does occur--
a black bear is statiscally more likely to stay engaged to the death.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Don't get me wrong that .338 Lapua is really cool and I do get the facitious nature of the responce.

I have a 338 LM Blaser--
And-- while it IS a wonderful weapon-
it is NOT a close quarters defense weapon

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
take your 9 with .....Bear spray is better than an air horn Of course a 500 S&W 4" would be ideal But a 9 is light years ahead of nothing ...

+ 1

A short lever gun in 45-70, 50 AK or a pump 12 was my 1st choice.

When the 2 1/2 " 500 came out it replaced my .44 as my chest-carry gun for fishing, hiking, hunting,etc
(Though I wish the 460 would have been available first, as I am now considering that purchase)

quote:

Originally posted by J-Po:
I will tell you what I am "afraid" of is being in my tent at night with nothing but a knife and a bear trying to get in after I have yelled, made noise etc. Also the human element. While I have to say most I have met in the woods are (seem to be) not a threat, you never know as I have come across some odd ones out there. Also coming over a hill to see mom and the cubs or bear eating a left over winter deer carcass in early spring. That type of thing. I have my eating/cleaning area 100yds downwind from camp and don't bring food (or greasy hands)back to the tent. Also wouldn't bring the wife if it's that time of the month. And, no I don't wear a bacon necklace but want to feel like I have SOMETHING just in case of an odd but possible situation. My experience with blackies (5 or so)are that they run when they see you or in one case don't pay much attention and continue on their way. Just don't like to be completely helpless or without options. BTW Dans40XC, got a good laugh at the "combat tupperware" reference. Unfortunately, for now it's what I've have. I don't know if I can swing an $800 44mag (S&W 629-4in.) and then tack on another $200 for tax, a holster, and enough ammo to get to be a decent shot with it before spring. Now by fall I think it can be done. I am not fooling myself into thinking the 44 is the savior but again it would make me more comfortable when I don't have the .270, 06 or shotgun.

I'd say that your 9mm is better than nothing, but I'd sure as hell prefer something with a bit more umph. As far as your gun costs go, you can buy a ruger gp100 used for $350-400. There is also the .41 mag to consider. Both can be had used, in a double action revolver, for less money than you think, and less recoil than a .44, allowing for a second shot much quicker. I personally believe that a .44 is beyond the most people's ability to shoot well, unless they shoot it a fair bit. The type of bullet you choose makes all the difference. Think penetration. Also, a gun 10 ft. away isn't much good, so whatever you choose, actually have it with you always. The best protection you have against any critter, 4 legs or 2, is on top of your shoulders.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Maybe I did hear about that. Was that the time some of the bear spray drifted into the cabin that kind of rings a bell.

No that happened to Jim. I sprayed my bear out behind the shed with no chance for spray drifting in.

J-Po I have been pitching tents on Kodiak Island for 10 years now in places where I can promise we will see at least 1-2 bears in our campsite per day. I have found that the best way to get a good night sleep is bring along someone who has very little experience with bears and is afraid of them. That way when you drift off it is pretty much guaranteed that they will stay awake all night listening to every leaf and twig that makes a sound all night.

Lastly, it is very very unlikely you are ever going to encounter a dangerous bear camping in VT but it only takes one to ruin your day. I personally don't bring anything or worry about it when camping here in MN. But if you are concerned DON'T BRING A CAN OF SPRAY TO A GUN FIGHT! Pack the 9mm and rest easy.

One more point you stated your concern for being in your tent at night and having a bear come around.

I think the last place you would want to engadge the bear spray would be under those conditions.

A 9mm will shoot right through a tent without filling it full of caustic subtance first other than a little powder residue.

[quote]What do you guys in Canada carry for walks in bear country since you/we are not allowed to have pistols (except for the priviledged few)?


Good question, those of us who spend much time in bear country don't worry about black bears that much. They are pretty easy to scare off, and contrary to popular opinion bear spray does work well when used properly-not always but most times. As mentioned if it's sprayed on stuff the bears like it-that doesn't mean it's worthless when sprayed in their eyes. It just means it's not a deterrent.

I have a close friend who was on the "predator control" for parks Canada and he's shot over 500 bears with everything imaginable. He says the spray works and I believe him because he's used it-a lot. His next choice is a shotgun, and he says it works well too, with buckshot or slugs. Again I have to believe him because he's done it. He stacks his ammo like most people do. He's also shot a grizly in his tent with the slug gun-seemed to work well because he's here to tell the story.

In a determined bear attack there is usually very little time to react. Most of the bear killings around here lately have been Grizzly attacks and it looks like things happened so fast there wasn't enough time to react. I suppose if you were wantering about with the gun in hand it would be different, but a gun slung over your shoulder or in a holster is too far away to get to fast. It's also thought that Blackies are more inclined toward predatory attacks than grizzles are.

I had a grizzly encounter this fall that was pretty unpleasant but you asked about blackies. I suppose the great thing for you is you can carry a handgun. I've got handguns and I'd not bother with the added weight-legal or not, they are just too cumbersome for me.

So the longwinded answer to your question-"what do we carry?" My dayback has a nice pocket that my can of real bearspray sits nicely in. Hopefully I'll never need it.

If you feel better with the gun then bring it, I'd use the gun in the tent where bear spray would be "unpleasant" for you too.

"Problem" bears are bears that have been accustomed to humans and realize that we have tasty calorie rich food in camp. Anything that would discourage them is a good idea. You can swat them in the ass with a broom- just send them on their way. Recently the parks guys are using pretty rough tactics to keep trapped bears from coming back to camp they shout and bang the trap then spray the bear with bearspray on his way out, and shoot him with rubber bullets. They have noticed that the worse they "haze" the bear the less likely they are to come back.

have a fun trip!

no question, spray.

Originally posted by Joe Elrod

quote:

no question, spray.

First off, it is not the "privileged few" who can own a handgun in Canada. They have been licensed and registered for about 100 years, but they are easy to own IF you legally reside in Canada and don't have a disqualifying criminal record.

Having said that, it is technically illegal to have a handgun with you unless you are at home, or at an approved range, or in transit in between.

Still, Canada is different than the U.S. Law enforcement officers in Canada regularly use their common sense in favor of the individual citizen they re dealing with rather than blindly adhere to the letter of the law. (They can do that because far fewer Canadian citizens try to skate as close to the technical edge of the law as they think they can.)

I still remember the first time I went fishing in the bush with a friend who was a Mountie, after I emigrated from the U.S. to Alberta. (He was the chief firearms technician for one of Alberta's two major RCMP detachments.)

He said, "Don't forget to bring your .44 Revolver."

I said, "What are trying to do, Joxxxx, entrap me?"

His response? "Don't be a stupid fxxxxxg American! When you go in the bush up here and meet a hostile bear, we don't want to spend a week or ten days looking for your remains. Take something appropriate to protect yourself!

"Just carry it concealed, don't wave it around where folks in a camp-ground will see it, and don't worry about it. If you break bottles in a campground & someone complains, we'll have to cite you whether you do it with rocks or a pistol. But if you just quietly & discreetly pack it out in the actual bush for your own survival, no one, least of all us, will give a damn."

So, from then on I carried in the bush, when fishing or trekking. When there were two of us, one always carried a .22 for small game, in case we became lost, snowed in, disabled, or anything like that. The other carried the "bear medicine". I did that for 17 years with no adverse results.

I'm curious, once having given up your US citizenship then moved back can you still own firearms here?

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Dans40XC:
A 12gauge pump shotgun alternately loaded w/ buck shot & slugs would serve you better than a piece of "Combat Tupperware"(Glock)chambered in 9X19 for black bear protection.
If a black bear is stalking you 99.9% of the time,you won't hear it or have the time to clear a holster with a hand gun.
Carry the shot gun,do not sling/pack it.

Air Horns work on the coast for brownies & it doesn't matter which way the wind is blowing!!!!
You'll have a 50/50 chance of using spray,depending twice on mother nature-bear & wind.
Not good odds.

If camping with a female-
A week a month,she is the bait.
A female was Timothy Treadwell's last mistake.

Dan40XC, no offense intended, but I always get a kick out of guys who recommend a 12 gauge with alternated slugs and buckshot. I've always wondered why a fellow needs both, and concluded that most people who advocate using both realize or believe that neither works well, so double your ineffectiveness by making sure that you have two types of relatively ineffective loads.

I believe that if a fellow is going to carry a long gun for protectionm, it needs to be a centerfire of at least .338 caliber.

I never carry my 9mm Glock in bear country and am not very impressed by bear spray, especially after using a canful on a pair of big male Rottweilers who were fighting to the death....it did jacksquat.

I have carried, while working alone for months in some of the most densely populated bear country in northern and western Canada, various firearms, but, they are pretty heavy for backpacking. I DO like an airhorn for warning bears that I am around, in densely forested areas and will carry when I feel it is wise to do so, as in the "hyperphagic" period of the bear's annual cycle.

Alberta Canuck's experience with the RCMP WAS pretty typical of their attitude in western Canada YEARS AGO, this is NOT the case now and carrying illegally here is a VERY bad practice.

What to do, well, a short carbine carried IN YOUR HANDS and loaded with heavy for caliber Nosler PTs is my choice and I have two custom Grizzly busters of that type and a 5.5" Ruger Redhawk in .44M.

I might add that predator control in the National Parks is a little different than protecting oneself on Crown Land. The majority of problem bears shot are not attacking and thus a careful pistol shot to the brain will do the trick, even with a 9mm, as I have seen several times.

But, to stop a bear intent on ruining your day, it takes a LOT more power and a .44M or heavy .45 Colt load is minimal, IMO and a 9.3x62-286NP is a LOT better as is my .45-70-400SAFs at 1900 fps. out of my modded Browning 1886 SRC. No point in messing about, hit them hard and put them on the ground.

See if you can't borrow a friend's 44Mag. I have no idea whiuch bullet you should use. I'd think a hollow point mighty expand too fast-- meant for men, not bears. Maybe there's a big-game bullet. I don't know. What about ammonia in some sort of capsule that breaks open when thrown at the bear? Could give you the few seconds you need to get your revolver out and start shooting...