The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting Anybody Know What The Magic Velocity is???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Anybody Know What The Magic Velocity is??? | Login/Join |
One of Us |
A poster on another board claims that the 45 Colt doesn't kill as well as the 44 mag because it is slower. He also claims the 45-70 revolver doesn't kill well because it is too fast. So I ask does anyone know what the magic velocity for 45 caliber is? Does one need Pixie dust to make a 45 work? Is the 45 caliber the only caliber that needs a magic velocity to work well or is it the Pixie dust. Bewildered  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | ||
|
one of us |
I am there with you.... Bewildered If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| one of us |
Pure BRAVO SIERRA !  Too many variables -velocity, bullet construction, bullet weight , etc. They all work very well ! | |||
|
| One of Us |
1000 fps! | |||
|
Moderator |
I read somewhere that a 200 grain bullet at 2,200 fps is optimal. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| one of us |
Don't let John pull your tails!  The question was always with deer and deer only. It is about double lung shots with no bone or spine hits. Being a life long archer, I tend to shoot behind the shoulder. It is about three revolvers. It is about hard water dropped or oven hardened WLN and WFN boolits. .45 Colt with a 335 gr at 1160 fps. .44 mag with a 320 to 330 gr boolit at 1350 fps. 45-70 with a 330 gr boolit at 1630 fps. The question is what choice of these three kills faster with more internal damage? What does the boolit do in passage? What do you do to the slower or faster boolit to make it work as good or better then the .44? It is a very plain and simple question so don't let John inject a million things into it because he never understood what I am talking about or just likes to argue. I can only tell you if all three revolvers shot these hard boolits around 1350 fps, they would be equal but I can't do that and maintain accuracy or I will exceed pressure limits. I talk about the sweet spot for HARD boolits and the .44, .475 and .500 JRH fall into that and we know the larger calibers work better. John will ask all kinds of stuff and inject very large animals into it but will never answer the real question. Yes, after observation of many kills, I know what to do and anyone with common sense will know the answer. But some like to fight. I think John is mad at me anyway!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Let's see yo claim the 45 Colt to be too slow and then you will claim the 45-70 to be too fast to kill well. So by deduction there must be a MAGIC VELOCITY that makes work as well as the 44 mag which you claim is better Let's take another look at in ineffective results that Cottonstlk got with a HARD CAST WIDE MEPLAT bullet in the 45 COLT AT A VELOCITY OF ONLY 1150 fps AT THE MUZZLE. i DO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS BELOW THE MAGIC VELOCITY IS IT NOT Cottonstalk's Deer  and now the exit  How is it that the WIDE MEPLAT HARD CAST WORKED FOR COTTONSTALK EVEN WITH VELOCITY LOWER THAN THE MAGIC VELOCITY?????  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| one of us |
Why do you keep showing someone else's pictures? How about a heart shot at the "sweet spot"?  | |||
|
| One of Us |
The thread is about the "MAGIC VELOCITY" needed for the 45 caliber to work according to you A better question is why are you posting a picture of internal damage caused by the 475. The 475 is not what is being discussed here As usual you jump all over the place and can not stay on subject. Wondering how long it will be before you start on the FA-83 being a POS. Can't wait for more BS The picture that I posted is about the 45 Colt at less than the "MAGIC VELOCITY" . Your picture relates how???? You are full of it _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
I DO know that in the 44 mag, any cast bullet with a wide meplat (and even the old Keith style 250), at 1000 fps will take a deer down fast....even with the high shoulder shot which I prefer, I have had total pass throughs, and never recovered a bullet. I would imagine that the 45LC would get the job done in short order with that same velocity....or, there-abouts | |||
|
| One of Us |
You get it and I get it and I agree  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Why post a picture of damage from a 475 since you haven't claimed that it needs a "MAGIC VELOCITY"  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Pixie dust is required! Velocity must be greater than zero with jacketed bullets in the .45 Colt...don't ask how I figured that out. | |||
|
| one of us |
Because it is at 1350 fps, same as the .44, and the .500 JRH. The boolits are the exact same hardness. Could this be done with a 335 gr hard cast in the .45? NO, because you can't shoot it that fast. Could it be done with the .45 with a little expansion? YES. Could it be done with the .45 and a lighter boolit at 1350 fps? Yes. You grope at straws ONLY to try and prove me wrong when you know I am right. Let me ask you a question. Take a .44, .45, .475, .500JRH All with the same alloy and same velocity of 1350 fps and which is better? I can answer, the largest caliber of course. Now because of pressure limits you need to shoot the .45 slower, how will it compare? What does the .45 when shot way to fast with a hard boolit do? I don't think all the others here are that culpable to believe one boolit will do it all. You only do this because I hurt your feelings about Freedom guns! I forgive your comments but you will hold a grudge forever. | |||
|
| one of us |
That is the best answer I have ever read! I just love it!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hurt my feelings,NOPE. You posted incorrect info and BS in that case as well. You claimed that the ammo was perfect and the reason that the bullet jump tied up the FA is because the cylinder was too short. Yet when Whitworth fired the same batch of ammo in a longer cylinder revolver and it tied it up as well you remained silent and said nothing. Never admitted that the ammo was at fault even after your proclomation that was perfect No bfrshooter you have a long history of post incorrect info and BS and neve ever admnitt cupability for your actions and some of us are sick and tired of it Post correct and acurate info and I will not combat any of that _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
How about the 500 Linebaugh with the 525 grain WLFN bullet that cloks betwenn 1090 to 1100 FPS and iit hammers game harder than the 475 or 500 JRH and the bullet is the same hardness as they all came from Cast performance in the factory loaded BB ammo that Whitworth had _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| one of us |
Not so, there was much discussion over these loads that were crimped too hard to try and overcome poor case tension. The crimp itself might have ruined the tension. There is also a point where boolit weight can not be held by brass no matter what you do. Strange that my .454 loads did not pull boolits even with a medium roll crimp. They were also more accurate. | |||
|
| One of Us |
do you guys ever quit | |||
|
| One of Us |
Do you want me to pull your post up and post it. In that post you claimed that the case tension was perfect that you could see the bullet from the case tension and that the crimp was perfect. You proclaimed the ammo perfect and the FA-83 as a POS You also failed to retract that position or ever mention the fact that when Whitworth shot the remainder of that ammo in a "longer" cylinder revolver the bullets pulled crimp and tied it up as well You have a very sellective memory  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| one of us |
If you go back you will see that I asked Whitworth why the things were crimped so hard. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I would like to see the original thread. Would someone kindly post a link? Thanks, Landrum | |||
|
| One of Us |
I find this thread rather humorous... I shot a red stag behind a fence (for meat) several years ago at about 80 yards with a hard 400-grain muzzleloader bullet running just about 1400 at the muzzle. The bullet penciled through both lungs and exited. The deer just stood there... ten seconds later he lifted his left leg and when he put it back down it was shaky, and he toppled. DRT, and never took the first step. If lung tissue were edible you could have eaten all the way up to the hole. Other than the ~1" hole through both lungs, there was no damage anywhere. Why is all the collateral damage necessary? Isn't dead dead? | |||
|
| one of us |
I don't have them but the deal was that there was something wrong with the loads and they could tie up a Freedom with one shot but it took more to tie up a longer cylinder. My hand loads never tied up either gun. It was about dangerous game protection with loads and a gun that can fail when you need it. A boolit right at the very end of a cylinder only has to move out a few thousandths to stop the gun. Bears can eat good! The loads WERE at fault but there is little room to play with using a cylinder too short because I would not bet my life on it. The other thing is that the Freedom is a smaller and lighter gun that recoils more and will pull boolits faster. Brass can only hold so tight and you do not want to exceed it. We are having trouble with some calibers and nothing I can do will hold in boolits. We have gone past brass limits. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The first link is page 1 of the offending thread http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1081010631/p/1 this link is page 2 and this is when it really starts going http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1081010631/p/3 Some one asked a question about Freedom Arms revovlers and bfrshooter goes off on a tangent as to why they are a POS. Whitworth mentions that some factory ammo jumped crimp and tied up the FA-83 454 and frshooter lays the blame to the revolver and not the faulty ammo Read the thread and make up your own mind. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
bfrshooter; Which cartridges are you having problems with...jumping crimp? | |||
|
| One of Us |
That's a helluva read. I believe I will sit this one out and let you boys have at it.  Landrum | |||
|
| One of Us |
 | |||
|
| One of Us |
The hardness of a hard cast bullet only needs to not be brittle and not too soft, other than that it is in-material. The bullets in the photo are a 45 Colt on the left and the 500 JRH on the right  A top view of the meplats, with the 500 JRH on the left and the 45 Colt on the right in this photo  The maplat on the 425 grain 500 JRH bullet is .390 and the meplat on the 335 grain 45 Colt bullet is .370. The meplat percent for the 425 grain bullet is 78%. The meplat percent for the 45 Colt bullet is 82% According to this wound channel calculator the wound diameter at a striking velocity of 1100 FPS is for the above 45 Colt bullet is Wound channel diameter of 1.018" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps. For the same bullet at 1350 FPS; Wound channel diameter of 1.249" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1350 fps. A difference of only .231" that is not a major difference when the wound is already 1" plus in diameter. Not enough difference to matter, because a 1" diameter wound through the lungs will be fatal very quickly. The difference in terminal performance would take some very sophisticated equipment to measure any difference. No one will be able to observe any difference. The 425 grain 500 JRH will leave a slightly larger wound but terminal performance on Deer sized animal will be comparable. Once a wound is large enough, larger doesn't matter The calculator is here: http://www.beartoothbullets.co....htm?v2=1100&v1=.370 Anyone can go online here and use this ballistic wound calculator: http://www.beartoothbullets.co....htm?v2=1100&v1=.370 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
In this thread he claims that he never has bullets jump crimp http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1081010631/p/1 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, what the heck...are they jumping crimp or not?!?!? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Depends on the thread, his contradictions overfloweth _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| one of us |
.500 Linebaugh and .50 Alaskan. Heavy boolits. So far none with any other caliber to the .500 JRH. I have no problems with the Freedoms up to .475 either. My caution was to test factory stuff before going into dangerous situations because the Freedom will be the first gun to tie up. Even a 400 gr Lee in the .475 is right at the end of the cylinder and it must be crimped high on the crimp groove. Gun weight is a huge factor in boolit pull. | |||
|
| One of Us |
bfr; If you would just stick with the 44 mag...which by the way is all you could ever need in a handgun....you wouldnt be having these problems! You "big bore" guys crack me up!!! "Yup, I shoot this big bad a$$ cartridge in my big bad a$$ revolver...only problem is the bullets come out of the cases every time I pull the trigger!" You have NOT exceeded the limits of the brass being able to retain the bullet...you have exceeded the limits of sanity by shooting those darn things!!!! Now that I have vented  What you need to do is undersize your expander plug to create a tighter bullet fit. Start with a .002 reduction, and work in .001 increaments. When you see a shoulder forming below the base of the bullet on the outside of the case, you should be close to what you need. Then, get a Lee Factory Crimp Die and remove the "sizing ring" at the bottom of the die (I cylindrical grind mine to my overall case dimension +.0005 with a seated bullet...I shoot .432's in my 44 mags), and crimp the living daylights out of the bullet. That should fix your problem with bullets jumping crimp....if it doesnt just go back to the old tried and true 44 Mag!!!! | |||
|
| one of us |
I am not stupid enough to think you can just go larger and larger without problems. Too heavy a boolit can cause problems as can too light a gun. I will always say the Freedom is too small and light for the large or hard recoiling calibers unless you know how to load. This is a thorn in JWP's side. Facts are facts. The Freedom has to be 100% perfect to shoot good and many are not, showing bad off center wear in throats, forcing cones and rifling. Another thorn! Some are fantastic but I will not spend my money to find out if the one I get is that good. I will buy a BFR and see 1" or less groups at 100 yards from every one. I am content to shoot a BFR for hundreds of thousands of rounds with no wear. I love the longer cylinders that do not need special boolits. My next choice is a Ruger, not a thing wrong with them. If there is, they will FIX IT FREE. | |||
|
| one of us |
My friend, you are 100% right, the .44 is and always will be the best. Notice that my last three deer were shot with my .44. But there is a fascination with the .475 and .500 JRH with accuracy. They are not that hard to shoot except for recoil control and barrel rise. The BFR revolvers are a wonder to shoot. If I had the money I would have the Magnum Research custom shop make me a BFR .44. | |||
|
| One of Us |
bfr; I know a number of folks that have Freedoms, and they swear by them...no problems...excellent accuracy, etc. One buddy of mine that lives in Michigan has many thousands of rounds through his, jacketed and cast, and has never had a problem. The gun is still tight and accuracy is beyond excellent with handloads and factory loads. He swears by that gun, and the fit and finish is impecable. He is a life long shooter, hunter, and collector, and is considered "in" as far as the pro's in the shooting field are concerned....he is part of that clique. I trust his opinion to the max degree!!! Now, even hearing that from him would I buy a Freedom (or a BFR for that matter)....no way...not when I can take a Ruger SA or DA, spend a few hours on it and have all the gun I could possibly want for a heck of a lot less $.....By the way, if you have bullets jumping crimp, I would take it that its happening in your BFR's?(I can see by your statements that you most likely wouldnt own a Freedom)..........anyway, try my suggestions on getting that brass to stay in the cases...might help you out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Of course you are ignoring the facts posted here and have purposely changed subjects _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting Anybody Know What The Magic Velocity is???
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia