bfr; That "fascination" that you speak of is your male ego telling you (actually lieing to you) that you need to have the biggest and the best...you need to face up to that....its a males nature to be that way, but, you dont have to fall for it....fight it! I was the same way years sgo... I had more guns than any three men could use in a lifetime, and one day I just sat down and decided to rid myself of all the unneeded guns that I had accumilated over the years. I kept the one that I "knew" would get the job done. My 44 mag Blackhawk was the only handgun that I kept!!! I still have it to this day, and even after a much needed face lift, it is still my favorite handgun. I own two others...a 5 1/2" Redhawk, and a 4" Redhawk.....both 44 mags. Soon the 4"er will be modified to my "Ultimate Backup" design, and the 5 1/2"er will hit the road. I will have two handguns, my Blackhawk in 44 mag as my hunting side arm, and my Redhawk in 44 mag as my back up sidearm. I need nothing else. bfr, get rid of all those overgrown monstrosities and the problems they bring with them, and return to the world of sane, and sensible "handgunning". You will feel a weight lift off of your shoulders the minute you do!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
bfr; That "fascination" that you speak of is your male ego telling you (actually lieing to you) that you need to have the biggest and the best...you need to face up to that....its a males nature to be that way, but, you dont have to fall for it....fight it! I was the same way years sgo... I had more guns than any three men could use in a lifetime, and one day I just sat down and decided to rid myself of all the unneeded guns that I had accumilated over the years. I kept the one that I "knew" would get the job done. My 44 mag Blackhawk was the only handgun that I kept!!! I still have it to this day, and even after a much needed face lift, it is still my favorite handgun. I own two others...a 5 1/2" Redhawk, and a 4" Redhawk.....both 44 mags. Soon the 4"er will be modified to my "Ultimate Backup" design, and the 5 1/2"er will hit the road. I will have two handguns, my Blackhawk in 44 mag as my hunting side arm, and my Redhawk in 44 mag as my back up sidearm. I need nothing else. bfr, get rid of all those overgrown monstrosities and the problems they bring with them, and return to the world of sane, and sensible "handgunning". You will feel a weight lift off of your shoulders the minute you do!!!!

You are correct, he should get rid of his 45 Colts and 45-70 revolver. They both have less ability to kill as well as the 44 because one of them is to slow and the other is too fast. According to bfrshooter the 44 has the "magical velocity' and the other 2 simply do not

Flattop;
You sound like dr.phil. You been watching too much oprah.
Its just not right!!!!!!!!!!!
Take BIG bites out of life, moderation is for monks.
I don't have to get rid of any of my 44s do I???? :-)
Have a good one guy.

I just joined the 475 Linebaugh fan club and am not about to get rid of it. I love the 44 Mag and the 45 Colt too but it's 475 time around these parts!

Landrum

257X50 and Landrum; I am not saying that everybody should do as I suggested...just bfr. He really needs some peace and serenity in his life....I think those BFR's and big bore cartridges are getting the best of him!!!!

You're a good man flattop!

257X50....and, you are as well!!!!

There are alot of variables in creating an accurate round.What may work for one,may not work for another.

The 45 colt has been killing stuff since 1873,and it still works.Cow hands and families have fed and protected themselves for over a century at some very mild velocities.I doubt when older folks moved west that they worried whether or not their side arms and carbines were up to the task.Yet today it doesn't kill as good as yesterday,even though we have greater accuess to better powder,as well as,boolits or bullets.

I wonder if the game I've taken with a 44 was any deader than those with the 45?They didn't taste any different.

These loads are for discussion purposes only,and were used safely in my guns but are not recommended,just for discussion purposes that I share them.I used a load of 25gr of H110 under a 250gr partitionin in a 44mag to dispatch a deer at 12 yards,the deer went straight down.I have used several weights at high velocity in a 44 with good results.However my 1150 load with a 300gr in 45 has done the same.A 255gr load at 1100 has cleanly taken a bear,and watching a deer hit with a 350gr boolit over 22grs of H110 for 1200fps is something to see,it literally drives them to the ground.

I FIGURED OUT WHY THE MAGICAL VELOCITY IS SO ELUSIVE!!!

Because we dont have chronographs that measure in the decimal range!! Dont you see.... its between two whole numbers!!!!

quote:

Posted 14 December 2010 20:21 Hide Post
bfr; I know a number of folks that have Freedoms, and they swear by them...no problems...excellent accuracy, etc. One buddy of mine that lives in Michigan has many thousands of rounds through his, jacketed and cast, and has never had a problem. The gun is still tight and accuracy is beyond excellent with handloads and factory loads. He swears by that gun, and the fit and finish is impecable. He is a life long shooter, hunter, and collector, and is considered "in" as far as the pro's in the shooting field are concerned....he is part of that clique. I trust his opinion to the max degree!!! Now, even hearing that from him would I buy a Freedom (or a BFR for that matter)....no way...not when I can take a Ruger SA or DA, spend a few hours on it and have all the gun I could possibly want for a heck of a lot less $.....By the way, if you have bullets jumping crimp, I would take it that its happening in your BFR's?(I can see by your statements that you most likely wouldnt own a Freedom)..........anyway, try my suggestions on getting that brass to stay in the cases...might help you out.

Posts: 149 | Registered: 22 April 2010 Reply With Quote

NO, never been a problem in the BFR's. Only in the light converted SRH in .500 Linebaugh and the heavy boolits in the .50 Alaskan.
No, I will not buy a Freedom because I would not know if the gun was good, some are but I won't spend my money hoping I was lucky.

quote:

No, I will not buy a Freedom because I would not know if the gun was good, some are but I won't spend my money hoping I was lucky.

More of the FA bashing. Your credibilty is taking a hit every time you post

The truth always hurts.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The truth always hurts.

Truth never hurts, but babbling BS is sad...

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The truth always hurts.

Maybe this will help take 2 and call me in the morning

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Posted 14 December 2010 20:21 Hide Post
bfr; I know a number of folks that have Freedoms, and they swear by them...no problems...excellent accuracy, etc. One buddy of mine that lives in Michigan has many thousands of rounds through his, jacketed and cast, and has never had a problem. The gun is still tight and accuracy is beyond excellent with handloads and factory loads. He swears by that gun, and the fit and finish is impecable. He is a life long shooter, hunter, and collector, and is considered "in" as far as the pro's in the shooting field are concerned....he is part of that clique. I trust his opinion to the max degree!!! Now, even hearing that from him would I buy a Freedom (or a BFR for that matter)....no way...not when I can take a Ruger SA or DA, spend a few hours on it and have all the gun I could possibly want for a heck of a lot less $.....By the way, if you have bullets jumping crimp, I would take it that its happening in your BFR's?(I can see by your statements that you most likely wouldnt own a Freedom)..........anyway, try my suggestions on getting that brass to stay in the cases...might help you out.

Posts: 149 | Registered: 22 April 2010 Reply With Quote

NO, never been a problem in the BFR's. Only in the light converted SRH in .500 Linebaugh and the heavy boolits in the .50 Alaskan.
No, I will not buy a Freedom because I would not know if the gun was good, some are but I won't spend my money hoping I was lucky.

What are you talking about? That .500 Linebaugh never had a crimp pulling problem. You must be confused with the .454.

Ruh Roh...

bfr; Go ahead and try my suggestions....smaller expander plug and Lee Crimp die...that should get you going...if not, report back.... you may have other issues that need be addressed. We will just try the simple stuff first.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The truth always hurts.

Maybe this will help take 2 and call me in the morning

Thanks for the good laugh JWP.. I fell out of my chair... I had to sent that to my wife...

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
bfr; If you would just stick with the 44 mag...which by the way is all you could ever need in a handgun....you wouldnt be having these problems! You "big bore" guys crack me up!!! "Yup, I shoot this big bad a$$ cartridge in my big bad a$$ revolver...only problem is the bullets come out of the cases every time I pull the trigger!" You have NOT exceeded the limits of the brass being able to retain the bullet...you have exceeded the limits of sanity by shooting those darn things!!!! Now that I have vented

What you need to do is undersize your expander plug to create a tighter bullet fit. Start with a .002 reduction, and work in .001 increaments. When you see a shoulder forming below the base of the bullet on the outside of the case, you should be close to what you need. Then, get a Lee Factory Crimp Die and remove the "sizing ring" at the bottom of the die (I cylindrical grind mine to my overall case dimension +.0005 with a seated bullet...I shoot .432's in my 44 mags), and crimp the living daylights out of the bullet. That should fix your problem with bullets jumping crimp....if it doesnt just go back to the old tried and true 44 Mag!!!!

Sticking with the .429 mag would be akin to taking your sister to the prom -- boring and embarrassing.......

You little bore guys crack me up! You're like little yapping dogs trying to take on the big dogs -- talk about over achieving.

I for one have no trouble shooting the big guns accurately.....

Hey flat top -- you know I'm just pullin' your leg!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
bfr; If you would just stick with the 44 mag...which by the way is all you could ever need in a handgun....you wouldnt be having these problems! You "big bore" guys crack me up!!! "Yup, I shoot this big bad a$$ cartridge in my big bad a$$ revolver...only problem is the bullets come out of the cases every time I pull the trigger!" You have NOT exceeded the limits of the brass being able to retain the bullet...you have exceeded the limits of sanity by shooting those darn things!!!! Now that I have vented

What you need to do is undersize your expander plug to create a tighter bullet fit. Start with a .002 reduction, and work in .001 increaments. When you see a shoulder forming below the base of the bullet on the outside of the case, you should be close to what you need. Then, get a Lee Factory Crimp Die and remove the "sizing ring" at the bottom of the die (I cylindrical grind mine to my overall case dimension +.0005 with a seated bullet...I shoot .432's in my 44 mags), and crimp the living daylights out of the bullet. That should fix your problem with bullets jumping crimp....if it doesnt just go back to the old tried and true 44 Mag!!!!

Sticking with the .429 mag would be akin to taking your sister to the prom -- boring and embarrassing.......

You little bore guys crack me up! You're like little yapping dogs trying to take on the big dogs -- talk about over achieving.

I for one have no trouble shooting the big guns accurately.....

Hey flat top -- you know I'm just pullin' your leg!

You know me Marco, love them big holes...

Whit; when shooting the mighty 44 mag, over achieving is a big problem....thats why most of us load down to more sensible velocities for smaller N.A. game: deer, hog, black bear etc....We save the stiff top end losds for large dangerous African game!!!

The Bear Tooth Bullets permanent wound channel calculator predicts the following[COLOR="Red"] Wound channel diameter of 1.035" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .360", and a striking velocity of 1150 fps.[/COLOR]


The pictures of the wound in Cottonstalks Deer with a WFN at 1150 FPS looks to be close to if not larger than the predicted wound channel




and now the exit

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Whit; when shooting the mighty 44 mag, over achieving is a big problem....thats why most of us load down to more sensible velocities for smaller N.A. game: deer, hog, black bear etc....We save the stiff top end losds for large dangerous African game!!!

Flat top, have you ever gotten the opportunity to play with and hunt with a big bore revolver? Try it, you might like it!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Whit; when shooting the mighty 44 mag, over achieving is a big problem....thats why most of us load down to more sensible velocities for smaller N.A. game: deer, hog, black bear etc....We save the stiff top end losds for large dangerous African game!!!

Flat top, have you ever gotten the opportunity to play with and hunt with a big bore revolver? Try it, you might like it!

They are still very very affective even when loaded down to sedate vleocity's that are very shootable

Whit; I do hunt with a big bore revolver....the mighty 44 mag (just for general info, a large bore is considered any caliber from .400 on up), and, I must tell you that after almost 40 years of doing so, I just dont see a need for anything larger or more powerful.

Nah, that's a medium bore -- kinda like a .375 H&H.......

I'm talking .45 Colt on up.

.452 - .429 = .023 That is .0115 increase per side.....not enough to make a difference in the field.

My GOD flat top if you don't stop hitting that horse you are going to kill him!!!!

jwp; ......and that is my exact intention! Besides, everybody here knows that the longer bullet of equal weight and shape will penetrate more than its shorter counterpart. Set a 45 405 grain bullet next to a 44 405 grain bullet and tell me which is longer. We know that penetration kills, and the best penetrator is the 44 mag....case closed...the horse is dead!

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
jwp; ......and that is my exact intention! Besides, everybody here knows that the longer bullet of equal weight and shape will penetrate more than its shorter counterpart. Set a 45 405 grain bullet next to a 44 405 grain bullet and tell me which is longer. We know that penetration kills, and the best penetrator is the 44 mag....case closed...the horse is dead!

Just ask any woman what gets better penetration.Long and thin or short and thick!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
jwp; ......and that is my exact intention! Besides, everybody here knows that the longer bullet of equal weight and shape will penetrate more than its shorter counterpart. Set a 45 405 grain bullet next to a 44 405 grain bullet and tell me which is longer. We know that penetration kills, and the best penetrator is the 44 mag....case closed...the horse is dead!

Oh contrare mohair -- not necessarily. If the nose is better on a 300 grainer it'll pass right by that 405 grain bullet like the 405 stood on the brakes. There is a point of diminishing returns.

1343.5 fps
what do I win ?

From now on, when it comes to listening to someone on this forum about anything concerning ballistics.....OLBIKER is DA MAN!!!! Notice how he puts everything in context in an easy to understand and reasonable format.,,,and states in a realistic manner, the "truth", not a bunch of bogus "theory". OLBIKER is now my new ballistics "go to" guy!!!!

Whit; I have a 405 grain bullet for the 44 mag that will out penetrate anything...and I mean "anything" you got!!!! Bring it on....show me what you can do!!!!

White Eagle wins!!!!!!!!!!!
At least that is what my Mom says. When she older and had to hunt from the rocker we would have to move the deer out so the bullet would slow to EXACTLY that speed so it would kill the thing.
Once in a while she would load them hot and we would have move out farther and hold them till she hit them. Winged lil brother Eddy one year.........
That's the speed she said White Eagle.
No one is calling my Mom a liar ate they??????

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Whit; I have a 405 grain bullet for the 44 mag that will out penetrate anything...and I mean "anything" you got!!!! Bring it on....show me what you can do!!!!

You'll regret that challenge! Like I said, it'll be like those long .429s stood on the brakes...... I have a slow moving .500 Linebaugh load that will put the b%$@* slapping on that 405!

Guess you will have to send me some as you don't have any big-bores to shoot my loads through.......

quote:

Just ask any woman what gets better penetration.Long and thin or short and thick!!!!

Yes but ask any woman what hurts worst,and feels the best.It doesn't do any good to go deep if you can't touch the sides.Long and thick is the only way to lay it!

Whit; the common denominator.....one gallon water jugs. Line up 20 of them in a perfectly straight line. Do not support the jugs in any way.... Fill to the cap with water, and cap them tight. Shoot your best load into the jugs at 10 yards. Tell me what you got....I have proof positive...photos, witnesses, etc. I will bet that your "best", wont penetrate half the distance of mine, or, shoot as straight, in a comparison in the like media of the water jugs. I will be awaiting your test results with baited breath.... Meanwhile I am going to beat on this horse some more!!!

This was my answer at Cast Boolits.

I have because I have been taken wrong during the whole discussion as if nothing was read at all. It was about a double lung double lung hit only with hard hard boolits that do not deform, ON DEER.
It had nothing at all to do with whether the boolits killed at any velocity but was only the reference to time of death with changing velocities.
It seems so contentious that I will not talk about it again.
People insert all kinds of alloys, spine hits, big bone hits, all size animals and on and on.
I may not have killed a million animals but I sure have killed enough deer to see a difference with starting velocities and distance the deer is shot. But simple physics vanish with a revolver as does the rate of twist.
I had to open my safe and look at the magic guns again. I need to expect the same internal damage at 500 yards that I get at 10 yards and the same damage at 900 fps that I get at 1350 fps.
I am baffled to say the least!
It begs the question of why the .454 or .460 is needed and why were they even thought of? And why are expanding bullets made?
Why did Elmer push so hard for the .44 mag? Could it be he was not happy with the .45 and .44 special?
End of story, I quit talking about boolit performance since all you need is a flat nose.
Whitworth will get all of his .500 JRH loads made to 700 fps from now on! Why do I detect tears?

quote:

Posted 15 December 2010 16:25 Hide Post
bfr; Go ahead and try my suggestions....smaller expander plug and Lee Crimp die...that should get you going...if not, report back.... you may have other issues that need be addressed. We will just try the simple stuff first.

If you have followed my posts you will see I am the originator of good case tension and EVEN tension from when I shot IHMSA. I even made a measuring device to sort rounds according to seating tension long before a gun writer complained to RCBS that expanders were too large for the .45 Colt but RCBS never changed any other caliber. I had special BR dies made for the .44 with collars like the Redding dies. How do you think I shot 79 out of 80 with ruger SBH? My fault for the last ram.
All of my revolvers shoot like a laser and I am the weak link.
I have been way ahead of you since the late 70's.